Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter reading and coax input or antenna voltage ?
At the antenna spigot. On 1/23/2019 10:00 AM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote: If I had an S-meter reading, S9 for example, on my K3, what could I infer about the voltage level of that signal at the Coax input to my K3? A table I found on the Internet for singals below 30 MHz says that an S-9 meter reading is a signal of 50-microvolts but where in the system is that registering 50 microvolts. At the input the K3 or some other circuit within the K3? Thanks -- just mostly curious about this and the connection between S-meter reading and actual signals input to the receiver. 73, phil, K7PEH __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wes_n...@triconet.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter reading and coax input or antenna voltage ?
Phil, With the original K3, S Meter "ABS" mode the S meter is referenced to the signal level at the antenna jack. S9 = -73 dBm = 50 uV into 50 ohms. In the other S Meter mode, the reading varies with ATT and PRE settings, as well as signal level. 73, Lyle KK7P On 1/23/19 10:00 AM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote: If I had an S-meter reading, S9 for example, on my K3, what could I infer about the voltage level of that signal at the Coax input to my K3? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] K3 S-meter reading and coax input or antenna voltage ?
If I had an S-meter reading, S9 for example, on my K3, what could I infer about the voltage level of that signal at the Coax input to my K3? A table I found on the Internet for singals below 30 MHz says that an S-9 meter reading is a signal of 50-microvolts but where in the system is that registering 50 microvolts. At the input the K3 or some other circuit within the K3? Thanks -- just mostly curious about this and the connection between S-meter reading and actual signals input to the receiver. 73, phil, K7PEH __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] [K3] S-meter linearity
I ran through an RF Gain calibration with the K3 Utility-- as I seem to do every three or four years for no good reason-- and then I checked the linearity of the S-meter. I've calibrated my S-meter for 1 S-unit = 5 dB because that way each tic mark represents 5 dB both above and below S9, making it easy to interpret. I use an Agilent E4433B signal generator. I can go from +60 dB over S9 (-13 dBm) down to S2 (-108 dBm) by stepping the amplitude of the generator in exactly 5 dB steps and over this entire 95 dB range the segments of the S-meter track perfectly. (The last S-unit, from S2 to S1, takes about an 8 dB delta to register on the S-meter.) I gotta say, that's pretty remarkable. Not too many years ago S-meters were approximate guesses, but they've improved quite a bit, probably because of digital IFs and lookup tables. Very nice. Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] K3 - S-meter zero
For the first time in years, I have no antenna connected to my K3 in our new digs, and the S-Meter sits at S3. What's going on and how do I get it to zero with no input? I'd research this in the manual and Fred's book, if I knew where they were, we're still finding stuff in boxes that haven't been unpacked. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015 - NEXT WEEKEND!! - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - S-meter zero
1st thing is to set the RF gain to max, check in: Config SMTR OF 024 SMTR SC 014 SMTR MD NOR when pre amp or attn is used it will effect the S meter, if you don't want it to change set to ABS Ed KD7PY ex K7WIA -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-S-meter-zero-tp7608476p7608477.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter question
Exactly the way it should be, Arlen. You do NOT have a problem. Congrats, de Milt, N5IA -Original Message- From: Arlen Fletcher Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 9:24 PM To: Elecraft Mailing List Subject: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter question I’ve just completed building my K3/10 (S/N 8115)!!! The PA3 and sub-receiver are sitting here but not built/installed yet. Everything seems to work fine - completed the TX gain calibration successfully, and the filter setup too, of course. However, I’m puzzled by the how the S-meter is behaving. It seems to be inversely proportional to the RF gain. With the RF gain all the way CCW, all segments of the S-meter are lit. With the RF gain at 12 o’clock, half of the segments are lit. Changing bands has no apparent effect on the S-meter reading, and it’s rare that any but the strongest stations has any effect on the meter. And, with the RF gain fully CW, a few segments are lit (depending upon the noise level in the band). This seems backwards to me, but this is my first HF rig, so maybe it’s supposed to behave this way? Maybe I have some config setting messed up? Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this! Thanks! 73 Arlen Fletcher, AA7F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to n...@zia-connection.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4355 / Virus Database: 3722/7303 - Release Date: 04/04/14 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4355 / Virus Database: 3722/7303 - Release Date: 04/04/14 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter question
This is typical of HF receivers from years past-- meter indicates increasing AGC as you reduce the RF gain; only stronger signals will flicker above the meter's reduced sensitivity indication. Supposedly this could be changed in a SDR radio. Some have requested that the meter not respond in this traditional fashion, but instead always measure the signal levels at the antenna terminals regardless of the RF Gain setting. Your meter reading may also be affected by attenuator and preamp settings (ATT and PRE), but there is a config option in the K3 to ignore their effects. However, this 'absolute' setting is still subject to the RF Gaiin control effect that you noted. 73, Drew AF2Z On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 21:24:15 -0700, you wrote: Ive just completed building my K3/10 (S/N 8115)!!! The PA3 and sub-receiver are sitting here but not built/installed yet. Everything seems to work fine - completed the TX gain calibration successfully, and the filter setup too, of course. However, Im puzzled by the how the S-meter is behaving. It seems to be inversely proportional to the RF gain. With the RF gain all the way CCW, all segments of the S-meter are lit. With the RF gain at 12 oclock, half of the segments are lit. Changing bands has no apparent effect on the S-meter reading, and its rare that any but the strongest stations has any effect on the meter. And, with the RF gain fully CW, a few segments are lit (depending upon the noise level in the band). This seems backwards to me, but this is my first HF rig, so maybe its supposed to behave this way? Maybe I have some config setting messed up? Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this! Thanks! 73 Arlen Fletcher, AA7F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter question
Yeah, this is normal behavior. Same thing happens on my 857D and all other's radios (i hear). You didn't do anything wrong. Slava, W2RMS On Apr 5, 2014, at 8:22 AM, drewko drew...@verizon.net wrote: This is typical of HF receivers from years past-- meter indicates increasing AGC as you reduce the RF gain; only stronger signals will flicker above the meter's reduced sensitivity indication. Supposedly this could be changed in a SDR radio. Some have requested that the meter not respond in this traditional fashion, but instead always measure the signal levels at the antenna terminals regardless of the RF Gain setting. Your meter reading may also be affected by attenuator and preamp settings (ATT and PRE), but there is a config option in the K3 to ignore their effects. However, this 'absolute' setting is still subject to the RF Gaiin control effect that you noted. 73, Drew AF2Z On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 21:24:15 -0700, you wrote: I’ve just completed building my K3/10 (S/N 8115)!!! The PA3 and sub-receiver are sitting here but not built/installed yet. Everything seems to work fine - completed the TX gain calibration successfully, and the filter setup too, of course. However, I’m puzzled by the how the S-meter is behaving. It seems to be inversely proportional to the RF gain. With the RF gain all the way CCW, all segments of the S-meter are lit. With the RF gain at 12 o’clock, half of the segments are lit. Changing bands has no apparent effect on the S-meter reading, and it’s rare that any but the strongest stations has any effect on the meter. And, with the RF gain fully CW, a few segments are lit (depending upon the noise level in the band). This seems backwards to me, but this is my first HF rig, so maybe it’s supposed to behave this way? Maybe I have some config setting messed up? Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this! Thanks! 73 Arlen Fletcher, AA7F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to sla...@nullserv.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter question
As you back off the RF Gain (CCW), the minimum signal that can be copied and that registers on the S Meter is a higher value. With the RF Gain set fully CW (greatest gain), you're copying the weakest signal the rig is capable of. These differences are shown by the S Meter. You should run RF Gain at a level that gives you best dynamic range, though this setting may change band-by-band. I run RF Gain at 2 o'clock most of the time and normally use it as the main volume control as well. What you are seeing is normal behavior. 73, matt W6NIA On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 21:24:15 -0700, you wrote: Ive just completed building my K3/10 (S/N 8115)!!! The PA3 and sub-receiver are sitting here but not built/installed yet. Everything seems to work fine - completed the TX gain calibration successfully, and the filter setup too, of course. However, Im puzzled by the how the S-meter is behaving. It seems to be inversely proportional to the RF gain. With the RF gain all the way CCW, all segments of the S-meter are lit. With the RF gain at 12 oclock, half of the segments are lit. Changing bands has no apparent effect on the S-meter reading, and its rare that any but the strongest stations has any effect on the meter. And, with the RF gain fully CW, a few segments are lit (depending upon the noise level in the band). This seems backwards to me, but this is my first HF rig, so maybe its supposed to behave this way? Maybe I have some config setting messed up? Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this! Thanks! 73 Arlen Fletcher, AA7F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to mzil...@roadrunner.com Matt Zilmer, W6NIA -- Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. -A. Lincoln __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter question
Ah!!! That makes sense. Thank you Matt, and all those that responded. I appreciate your attempts to educate me. :-) 73 Arlen AA7F On Apr 5, 2014, at 7:38 AM, Matt Zilmer mzil...@roadrunner.com wrote: As you back off the RF Gain (CCW), the minimum signal that can be copied and that registers on the S Meter is a higher value. With the RF Gain set fully CW (greatest gain), you're copying the weakest signal the rig is capable of. These differences are shown by the S Meter. You should run RF Gain at a level that gives you best dynamic range, though this setting may change band-by-band. I run RF Gain at 2 o'clock most of the time and normally use it as the main volume control as well. What you are seeing is normal behavior. 73, matt W6NIA On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 21:24:15 -0700, you wrote: I’ve just completed building my K3/10 (S/N 8115)!!! The PA3 and sub-receiver are sitting here but not built/installed yet. Everything seems to work fine - completed the TX gain calibration successfully, and the filter setup too, of course. However, I’m puzzled by the how the S-meter is behaving. It seems to be inversely proportional to the RF gain. With the RF gain all the way CCW, all segments of the S-meter are lit. With the RF gain at 12 o’clock, half of the segments are lit. Changing bands has no apparent effect on the S-meter reading, and it’s rare that any but the strongest stations has any effect on the meter. And, with the RF gain fully CW, a few segments are lit (depending upon the noise level in the band). This seems backwards to me, but this is my first HF rig, so maybe it’s supposed to behave this way? Maybe I have some config setting messed up? Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this! Thanks! 73 Arlen Fletcher, AA7F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to mzil...@roadrunner.com Matt Zilmer, W6NIA -- Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. -A. Lincoln __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] K3 S-meter question
I’ve just completed building my K3/10 (S/N 8115)!!! The PA3 and sub-receiver are sitting here but not built/installed yet. Everything seems to work fine - completed the TX gain calibration successfully, and the filter setup too, of course. However, I’m puzzled by the how the S-meter is behaving. It seems to be inversely proportional to the RF gain. With the RF gain all the way CCW, all segments of the S-meter are lit. With the RF gain at 12 o’clock, half of the segments are lit. Changing bands has no apparent effect on the S-meter reading, and it’s rare that any but the strongest stations has any effect on the meter. And, with the RF gain fully CW, a few segments are lit (depending upon the noise level in the band). This seems backwards to me, but this is my first HF rig, so maybe it’s supposed to behave this way? Maybe I have some config setting messed up? Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this! Thanks! 73 Arlen Fletcher, AA7F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] K3 S-meter Reading with ATT on and PRE off
I wanted to ask about the K3 S-meter readings I noticed: 1. S7 with ATT off and PRE on2. S5 with ATT off and PRE off3. S3 with ATT on and PRE off These were for a CW signal on 20M; I read that turning the attenuator on and preamp off provides a better signal by lowering the noise level in the IF stages and beyond. I can hear the signal better too, but wanted to ask if the S meter readings are supposed to change with the settings of ATT PRE? Thanks! Jay (KD6AMA) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter Reading with ATT on and PRE off
check out SMTR MD in the manual (Advanced) S-meter mode: When set to NOR, preamp/attenuator on/off will affect the S-meter. (The default values of SMTR OF and SMTR SC apply to NOR.) If set to ABS, the S-meter reading will stay fairly constant with different preamp/attenuator settings, but SMTR OF and SMTR SC must be re-aligned also page 51 (owners man D10.pdf) for 'S-Meter and RF GAIN Control' with help about calibration. Sam K5OAI -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-S-meter-Reading-with-ATT-on-and-PRE-off-tp7573136p7573146.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter Reading with ATT on and PRE off
Jay, Normally, the preamp and attenuator will change the S-meter reading. If you do not want that to happen, go into the menu and change to SMTR ABS. I suggest (contrary to the manual suggestion) that you calibrate the S-meter with the preamp and attenuator both off before setting SMTR ABS, but the choice is yours. If you calibrate with the preamp on, then switch to SMTR ABS, a 50 uV signal will read S-7 rather than S-9. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/27/2013 5:10 PM, Jay Krishna wrote: I wanted to ask about the K3 S-meter readings I noticed: 1. S7 with ATT off and PRE on2. S5 with ATT off and PRE off3. S3 with ATT on and PRE off These were for a CW signal on 20M; I read that turning the attenuator on and preamp off provides a better signal by lowering the noise level in the IF stages and beyond. I can hear the signal better too, but wanted to ask if the S meter readings are supposed to change with the settings of ATT PRE? Thanks! Jay (KD6AMA) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
Don, I always seem to have my RF gain adjusted by ear to below where the s-meter will deflect on a particular signal. So I will most always have to readjust the gain to see an s-meter reading. The RF gain can be adjusted much lower than the signal's meter deflection point but still have an audible signal. A moderate strength signal can still be heard when the RF gain has been turned down to the point where the s-meter incicates s9+40 db. The more I think about it the less useful it seems to have the meter deflect upward with a lowered RF gain setting. Does anyone find this action useful for tuning in a signal? I know that I would be fiddling around with the RF gain control a lot less if the s-meter display was not affected by the gain control. Why not make the s-meter absolute mode, which is independent of the attenuation setting, also independent of the RF gain control? That seems more consistent and logical to me. 73, Drew AF2Z On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 19:55:32 -0500, you wrote: On the contrary, one can give an honest report even with the RF gain reduced (but only under certain circumstances). If one has reduced the RF gain to the point (just) where the S-meter deflection is at the noise floor, then the S-meter readings should still be valid - you are simply reducing the receiver gain to keep from hearing the noise. For instance, if your local noise floor is S-3, then reducing the RF gain so the S-meter reads a low of S-3, you will find an S-4 signal still moving the meter at S-4 - he is 1 S-unit higher than your noise level. Would you want to report that signal strength at S-1 (if the RF gain did not increase the S-meter reading) or report him to be a realistic S-4. Each to his own, but that is the way I see the picture. Yes, reducing the RF gain to greater than the band noise level will skew the S-meter readings, but I do not use the RF gain control for that, I reduce the gain just to the point where the S-meter matches the band noise. Signals stronger than that band noise will still be indicating at the level indicated on the S-meter. 73, Don W3FPR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
Drew, The S-meter operates off the AGC voltage and cannot be controlled in the firmware. The result is that you will have to put up with it Most all receivers have done the same thing in my 50+ years of hamming. What I can say is is that if you reduce the RF Gain to eliminate the band noise level, and the S-meter now reads (for example) S-3, a signal that is now indicating S-9 should receive a proper report of S-6. Actually, the S in he RST report is better given with respect to other signals on the band rather than as an absolute number. Report the S in the RST report with your ears rather than what the S-meter is indicating. For those who have operated older receivers, that is the way it is done. If you look at the S report in the ARRL handbook, it will indicate that is a strength relative to other stations on the band rather than relying on a meter reading. DXpedition and contest contacts are always 599 just for expediency. 73, Don W3FPR On 3/6/2013 10:30 AM, drewko wrote: Don, I always seem to have my RF gain adjusted by ear to below where the s-meter will deflect on a particular signal. So I will most always have to readjust the gain to see an s-meter reading. The RF gain can be adjusted much lower than the signal's meter deflection point but still have an audible signal. A moderate strength signal can still be heard when the RF gain has been turned down to the point where the s-meter incicates s9+40 db. The more I think about it the less useful it seems to have the meter deflect upward with a lowered RF gain setting. Does anyone find this action useful for tuning in a signal? I know that I would be fiddling around with the RF gain control a lot less if the s-meter display was not affected by the gain control. Why not make the s-meter absolute mode, which is independent of the attenuation setting, also independent of the RF gain control? That seems more consistent and logical to me. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3-S Meter
Don, while that may be true, I wonder how Ten Tec was able to reverse the way the Orion 2's S-Meter works going from a deflected Rf gain to one that works independent of RF gain? Toby W4CAk __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3-S Meter
Toby, Different hardware, not dependent on the AGC for S-meter indications. 73, Don W3FPR On 3/6/2013 7:57 PM, Toby Pennington wrote: Don, while that may be true, I wonder how Ten Tec was able to reverse the way the Orion 2's S-Meter works going from a deflected Rf gain to one that works independent of RF gain? Toby W4CAk __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
RST is not a reflection of S-METER readings at all. It is a means of describing the quality of a received signal, not just the strength. Furthermore Amateur radio manufacturers (not Elecraft) are notorious for not following the 50 microvolts = S9 rule, so S-meter readings are meaningless as measure of signal quality in most cases. The link below describes the RST system for signal quality reports. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RST_code The folks who defined the RST system probably didn't have S-Meters on their receivers. 73, Tom Amateur Radio Operator N5GE ARRL Lifetime Member QCWA Lifetime Member On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 16:22:07 -0800, Toby Pennington toby...@embarqmail.com wrote: ...I would like to see the RF gain ride the signals instead of deflecting. W4CAK wrote Ralph, ve7Xf wrote,I don't understand. The S-meter usually indicates the AGC voltage. I like it the way it is. Ralph, VE7XF Ralph, I probably did not phrase that properly. I would like to see the RF gain removed from affecting the S-Meter in any way. Let us see the signals on the s-meter and at the same time have a very quiet copy on the received weaker signal. Every one wants a signal report,but if you have the RF gain up you dont see his signal in order to give a honest report. . Toby W4CAK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
The S in RST is what S-meters supposedly indicate although many Hams rightfully feel they do it very poorly, Hi! A little background: The RST system was adopted by Hams in the early 1920's when the standard HAM receiver was a regen. The S- meter on a receiver came along with automatic gain control (AGC) as superhets came into common use in the 1920s. The AGC varies according to the signal level and controls the gain to maintain a roughly constant audio output level. It first came into use on the RCA Radiola series A.M. radios that were the Cadillac of broadcast band receivers just as broadcasting was starting up. Home listeners were delighted with a system that kept strong stations from blasting out and that helped keep the music level constant when there was fading. The S-meter measures the AGC voltage and became a popular addition to Ham receivers. But AGC was used only on A.M. phone stations by most Hams well into the 1960's. That's because one could not have a BFO operating for CW (or, later, SSB) reception and have the AGC active. The BFO was, by definition, on the I.F., offset only by several hundred Hz to produce the beat note desired. So it triggered the AGC just like any gigantic signal being received. With the BFO on, the AGC registered maximum signal and completely desensitized the receiver. I didn't care about not having an S-meter on CW, and I never met a Ham who thought it was important back then. But phone operators became used to having them and missed their S-meters as SSB took over from A.M. and they had to turn on the BFO and turn off the AGC. That seems to have stimulated a search for a solution. In the 50's and 60's a separate I.F. amp strip just for the AGC started showing up using a different frequency from the BFO so one could have the AGC active and the BFO on at the same time. Also, there was a lot of tinkering around with audio AGC where the AGC was triggered by the audio level, not the I.F. signal, but they weren't popular. At audio it takes a significantly longer for the AGC voltage to build up than at the much higher frequency I.F., and that delayed the onset of AGC action. (Although it is still around in limited use. The Elecraft KX1 uses audio AGC.) When S-meters started showing up on communications receivers in the 1930's, manufacturers needed to make the S-meter on all of their receivers respond similarly to the same signal. That meant calibrating the S-meters to register the same level for a given signal strength. Collins is usually credited with deciding that 50uV at the antenna should produce a S-9 level on the meter. That's how all Collins receivers were calibrated, at least for a number of years. Some other manufacturers such as National and Hallicrafters followed suit, but some manufacturers discovered that many Hams loved what was called, on the A.M. phone bands, a lively or generous S-meter that consistently gave higher readings than other receivers. Of course, to the unsophisticated Ham that suggested that his receiver was more sensitive - a highly prized attribute. Adding a preamplifier ahead of the receiver - a very popular add-on for 14 MHz and above - added gain that made the S-meter more lively too, even on a well-calibrated receiver S-meter. It wasn't unusual to find that those receivers registered S-9 on a 10 uV or less signal, often to the great delight of the Ham owner resulting in happy reactions such as Wow! You're 70 over 9 on my new Bandbuster receiver OM! Only in the last decade or so have I seen any particular interest among Hams in calibrating their S-meters again, I suppose because it is possible to do so in rigs like the K3. Somewhere along the way a slope of 6 dB/S-Unit came into use. I'm not sure just when, but 6 dB/S-uint was the standard I was aware of when I built my first homebrew superhet with an s-meter in the early 1960's. Fast forward to 2013 and for me the most useful signal indicator is the P3, showing either the signal level at the antenna in -dBm or, for traditionalists, in S-units. BTW, the P3 assumes 6 dB/S-unit too. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tom H Childers Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 1:46 PM To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter RST is not a reflection of S-METER readings at all. It is a means of describing the quality of a received signal, not just the strength. Furthermore Amateur radio manufacturers (not Elecraft) are notorious for not following the 50 microvolts = S9 rule, so S-meter readings are meaningless as measure of signal quality in most cases. The link below describes the RST system for signal quality reports. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RST_code The folks who defined the RST system probably didn't have S-Meters on their receivers. 73, Tom Amateur Radio Operator N5GE ARRL Lifetime Member QCWA Lifetime Member
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter
...I would like to see the RF gain ride the signals instead of deflecting. I don't understand. The S-meter usually indicates the AGC voltage. I like it the way it is. Ralph, VE7XF __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter
Optional? Sent from my iPad Chuck, KE9UW (Jack for BMW motorcycles) On Mar 4, 2013, at 2:29 PM, Ralph Parker ve...@dccnet.com wrote: ...I would like to see the RF gain ride the signals instead of deflecting. I don't understand. The S-meter usually indicates the AGC voltage. I like it the way it is. Ralph, VE7XF __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
...I would like to see the RF gain ride the signals instead of deflecting. W4CAK wrote Ralph, ve7Xf wrote,I don't understand. The S-meter usually indicates the AGC voltage. I like it the way it is. Ralph, VE7XF Ralph, I probably did not phrase that properly. I would like to see the RF gain removed from affecting the S-Meter in any way. Let us see the signals on the s-meter and at the same time have a very quiet copy on the received weaker signal. Every one wants a signal report,but if you have the RF gain up you dont see his signal in order to give a honest report. . Toby W4CAK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
On the contrary, one can give an honest report even with the RF gain reduced (but only under certain circumstances). If one has reduced the RF gain to the point (just) where the S-meter deflection is at the noise floor, then the S-meter readings should still be valid - you are simply reducing the receiver gain to keep from hearing the noise. For instance, if your local noise floor is S-3, then reducing the RF gain so the S-meter reads a low of S-3, you will find an S-4 signal still moving the meter at S-4 - he is 1 S-unit higher than your noise level. Would you want to report that signal strength at S-1 (if the RF gain did not increase the S-meter reading) or report him to be a realistic S-4. Each to his own, but that is the way I see the picture. Yes, reducing the RF gain to greater than the band noise level will skew the S-meter readings, but I do not use the RF gain control for that, I reduce the gain just to the point where the S-meter matches the band noise. Signals stronger than that band noise will still be indicating at the level indicated on the S-meter. 73, Don W3FPR On 3/4/2013 7:22 PM, Toby Pennington wrote: ...I would like to see the RF gain ride the signals instead of deflecting. W4CAK wrote Ralph, ve7Xf wrote,I don't understand. The S-meter usually indicates the AGC voltage. I like it the way it is. Ralph, VE7XF Ralph, I probably did not phrase that properly. I would like to see the RF gain removed from affecting the S-Meter in any way. Let us see the signals on the s-meter and at the same time have a very quiet copy on the received weaker signal. Every one wants a signal report,but if you have the RF gain up you dont see his signal in order to give a honest report. . Toby W4CAK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
HI I also don't use it for the same reason. Of course, if this can be improved that's fine !... 73, Laurent - Laurent F6DEX -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-S-Meter-tp7568712p7570250.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
Hi Eric, thanks for jump in here. Gary already contacted me and told me to do the whole recalibration when i want to use the peak-hold function. I decided now to not use this feature because when i want to switch it off i`ve to do that again... 73 and many thanks for the fast support... Michael -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-S-Meter-tp7568712p7568754.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
Hello together, i observed when i activate the peak-hold function of the S-Meter that one bar is added to the signal (the hold dot). So the meter shows abt 5db too much...anyone observed this issue ? I use 4.60 FW, SMTR MD set to abs. 73 Michael -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-S-Meter-tp7568712.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
DL5OCD == DL5OCD metamo...@t-online.de writes: DL5OCD Hello together, DL5OCD i observed when i activate the peak-hold function of the DL5OCD S-Meter that one DL5OCD bar is added to the signal (the hold dot). So the meter DL5OCD shows abt 5db too DL5OCD much...anyone observed this issue ? DL5OCD I use 4.60 FW, SMTR MD set to abs. Yes, noticed the same a couple days ago when running the s-meter calibration in absolute mode. Using 4.61 here. Pf -- Pierfrancesco Caci, ik5pvx __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
Running 4.58 and mine does the same. I set the service monitor down to S-9, and then set the P3 to -73 dBm, but finally decided I didn't like peak-hold, and put it back. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org On 1/15/2013 12:45 PM, Pierfrancesco Caci wrote: DL5OCD == DL5OCD metamo...@t-online.de writes: DL5OCD Hello together, DL5OCD i observed when i activate the peak-hold function of the DL5OCD S-Meter that one DL5OCD bar is added to the signal (the hold dot). So the meter DL5OCD shows abt 5db too DL5OCD much...anyone observed this issue ? DL5OCD I use 4.60 FW, SMTR MD set to abs. Yes, noticed the same a couple days ago when running the s-meter calibration in absolute mode. Using 4.61 here. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
OK, many thanks. So it seems more like a bug than a feature...i`ll forward this to k3-support. 73 Michael -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-S-Meter-tp7568712p7568716.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
No need to contact support. This is the way is has acted since the beginning. 73, Eric --- www.elecraft.com On 1/15/2013 2:05 PM, DL5OCD wrote: OK, many thanks. So it seems more like a bug than a feature...i`ll forward this to k3-support. 73 Michael __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-Meter
Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft e...@elecraft.com wrote: No need to contact support. This is the way is has acted since the beginning. 73, Eric --- www.elecraft.com On 1/15/2013 2:05 PM, DL5OCD wrote: OK, many thanks. So it seems more like a bug than a feature...i`ll forward this to k3-support. 73 Michael __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Any particular reason why it is so? It still looks like a (very minor, cosmetic as cisco like to call them) bug Pf -- Pierfrancesco Caci __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 S-Meter Stuck with KXV3 Error
I recently build a new K3 from a kit. It worked great for a month, but after going through the configuration menus and setting up some preferences, I started getting errors. After powering the radio back on, my S-meter is a solid S-9 regardless of the input signal levels. With a 50 ohm termination my P3 shows the noise floor below S-0 but the K3 meter is still S-9. I am also getting a KXV3 error at the same time this started happening. Corrective actions taken so far: Removed and uninstalled the K3XV module. (Result: K3XV error goes away, S-Meter still stuck) Remove and replace front panel to insure all connectors are seated properly (Result: No Change) Reloaded all Firmware (Result: No change) Reloaded initial configuration file (Result: No Change) Has anyone experienced anything like this? It is odd that the radio was working fine after the kit build and suddenly stopped after setting up configurations, but it does not start up again after loading the default configurations. I plan on emailing customer support on Monday. 73, -Kenny Keese, KD5EVW K3 SN# 6112 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities
I have also noticed that if you lower the rf gain that that meter does not deflect all to S9 like my other K3 that does not exhibit this issue. On 8/11/2011 5:44 PM, Phillip Shepard wrote: It actually does it with a blank phone plug inserted. As soon as the plug goes in, the S meter jumps up. The signal itself does not change, just the meter reading. I have not examined the area around the jack inside to see if there is anything odd. That may be next. Phil -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Bruce Beford Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:54 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities When I plug my headphones into the K3 the S Meter jumps up about 5 s units. This unit is running 4.31 FW. I obviously have not tried new 4.39. Just curious if anyone else has seen this. Mike W0MU My K3 s/n 559 running 4.39 does -not- exhibit this behavior. As far as I can recall, it never has. Using Koss and Yamaha phones here. On what bands/under what conditions? Is it possible you are actually coupling some kind of RF (not necessarily ham transmissions, but something else in the house/shack) back into the rig from within your environment via the phones lead? GL, Bruce, N1RX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- J6/W0MU November 21 - December 1 2011 CQ WW DX CW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities
Does it do it with both headphone jacks, or just the front, or just the rear? 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities
When I plug my headphones into the K3 the S Meter jumps up about 5 s units. This unit is running 4.31 FW. I obviously have not tried new 4.39. Just curious if anyone else has seen this. Mike W0MU __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities
Mike, My K3 has done this for quite some time. I currently have 4.36 loaded, but it was there long before that. I put it on the reflector before, but I never could get a resolution to it. I'm all ears on this. 73, Phil, NS7P -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Mike Fatchett W0MU Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:45 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities When I plug my headphones into the K3 the S Meter jumps up about 5 s units. This unit is running 4.31 FW. I obviously have not tried new 4.39. Just curious if anyone else has seen this. Mike W0MU __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities
Interesting. I am using a K3 without the 2nd receiver at the moment. The full blown K3 is up in Montana. This was my 2nd SO2R rig. I kept looking over and wondering what was causing so much noise on the band but there is no noise just the s meter reading oddly. Using the Heil Quiet Phone Pro. It does it with the noise cancelling on or off. On 8/11/2011 11:51 AM, Phillip Shepard wrote: Mike, My K3 has done this for quite some time. I currently have 4.36 loaded, but it was there long before that. I put it on the reflector before, but I never could get a resolution to it. I'm all ears on this. 73, Phil, NS7P -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Mike Fatchett W0MU Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:45 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities When I plug my headphones into the K3 the S Meter jumps up about 5 s units. This unit is running 4.31 FW. I obviously have not tried new 4.39. Just curious if anyone else has seen this. Mike W0MU __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities
When I plug my headphones into the K3 the S Meter jumps up about 5 s units. This unit is running 4.31 FW. I obviously have not tried new 4.39. Just curious if anyone else has seen this. Mike W0MU My K3 s/n 559 running 4.39 does -not- exhibit this behavior. As far as I can recall, it never has. Using Koss and Yamaha phones here. On what bands/under what conditions? Is it possible you are actually coupling some kind of RF (not necessarily ham transmissions, but something else in the house/shack) back into the rig from within your environment via the phones lead? GL, Bruce, N1RX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities
It actually does it with a blank phone plug inserted. As soon as the plug goes in, the S meter jumps up. The signal itself does not change, just the meter reading. I have not examined the area around the jack inside to see if there is anything odd. That may be next. Phil -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Bruce Beford Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:54 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities When I plug my headphones into the K3 the S Meter jumps up about 5 s units. This unit is running 4.31 FW. I obviously have not tried new 4.39. Just curious if anyone else has seen this. Mike W0MU My K3 s/n 559 running 4.39 does -not- exhibit this behavior. As far as I can recall, it never has. Using Koss and Yamaha phones here. On what bands/under what conditions? Is it possible you are actually coupling some kind of RF (not necessarily ham transmissions, but something else in the house/shack) back into the rig from within your environment via the phones lead? GL, Bruce, N1RX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities
Gents, I am NOT seeing this behavior on my K3/100, SN 4401 w/4.39 firmware installed (just this past weekend.) As best as I can recollect, it has never changed when plugging in the headphones. 73 de Jim - KE8G - Original Message - From: Phillip Shepard ph...@riousa.com To: Bruce Beford bruce.bef...@myfairpoint.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities It actually does it with a blank phone plug inserted. As soon as the plug goes in, the S meter jumps up. The signal itself does not change, just the meter reading. I have not examined the area around the jack inside to see if there is anything odd. That may be next. Phil -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Bruce Beford Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:54 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities When I plug my headphones into the K3 the S Meter jumps up about 5 s units. This unit is running 4.31 FW. I obviously have not tried new 4.39. Just curious if anyone else has seen this. Mike W0MU My K3 s/n 559 running 4.39 does -not- exhibit this behavior. As far as I can recall, it never has. Using Koss and Yamaha phones here. On what bands/under what conditions? Is it possible you are actually coupling some kind of RF (not necessarily ham transmissions, but something else in the house/shack) back into the rig from within your environment via the phones lead? GL, Bruce, N1RX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter oddities
Never on K3/100 S/N 642 [just loaded 4.39]. I use the rear headfone and mic jacks exclusively ... putting them there in addition to the front panel was a genius moment! 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011 - www.cqp.org On 8/11/2011 5:08 PM, KE8G wrote: Gents, I am NOT seeing this behavior on my K3/100, SN 4401 w/4.39 firmware installed (just this past weekend.) As best as I can recollect, it has never changed when plugging in the headphones. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 s-meter calibration parameters and flickering S1...
Hello again, Update to my last post: I turned everything off, went and had a cup of coffee, came back and tried the RF gain calibration routine again with K3 Utility - worked just fine this time. So, not sure why those errors. I had turned everything off and re-booted the K3, restarted the utility etc in previous attempts, with no effect. Must've been the cup of coffee :) So now on to another question: After the RF calibration, I re-did the S-meter calibration using the XG3, with the K3 in ABS mode, PRE OFF. SMTR OF = 21, SMTR SC = 14. With these parameters, the scale is very linear and pretty much spot on: S9 @ -73dBm, S2-3 @ -107dBm, S9+40 @ -33dBm BUT, when I disconnect the XG3, so nothing is connected to ANT1, the S1 bar flickers on and off. I can't stop this flickering S1 without readjusting the parameters and throwing out the rest of the calibration. The S1 does turn off if I narrow the bandwidth to less than 1.5khz. I've been doing the calibration in CW mode but with bw set at 2.8khz. Is this flickering S1 with no antenna connected normal/expected? Intuitively, I feel that no input should give no bars, but perhaps that simplistic. 73, John VK7JB -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-s-meter-calibration-parameters-and-flickering-S1-tp6418969p6418969.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 s-meter calibration parameters and flickering S1...
John - I would say that if it is just flickering on and off that is exactly right. It does at least show that the receiver is live and the residual noise is registering on the S-meter. Perhaps if you shorted ANT1 to ground the flickering might reduce. Personally, if my S-meter did not flicker, I would wonder whether my receiver is working ;-) 73 de David G4DMP In a recent message, VK7JB zen...@netspace.net.au writes BUT, when I disconnect the XG3, so nothing is connected to ANT1, the S1 bar flickers on and off. I can't stop this flickering S1 without readjusting the parameters and throwing out the rest of the calibration. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 s-meter calibration parameters and flickering S1...
Hello John! In ABS mode this is normal. It is a consequence of offsets the DSP is doing to account for the settings of ATT and PRE, along with the method used to pass S Meter information to the MCU. 73, Lyle KK7P After the RF calibration, I re-did the S-meter calibration using the XG3, with the K3 in ABS mode,... BUT, when I disconnect the XG3, so nothing is connected to ANT1, the S1 bar flickers on and off. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 s-meter calibration parameters and flickering S1...
Thanks Lyle and David. Sounds all's configured OK then. I'll get back to playing with my K3. 73, John VK7JB -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-s-meter-calibration-parameters-and-flickering-S1-tp6418969p6420986.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
Alan, Thank you for this, I have been wondering whether my P3 required calibration. I am not sure if this is mentioned in the manual but if not it should be. The P3 is a new product and some of us are still learning. The forum once again proves valuable. 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Alan Bloom Sent: 06 May 2011 23:00 To: Jim Miller KG0KP Cc: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale The reason the P3 reads lower than the K3 on noise or SSB signals is that each display point on the P3 screen covers only a small bandwidth. As explained in the manual, each display point is about 1/450 of the span. For example, if the span is 45 kHz, then each display point only covers about 100 Hz. You'd see the same effect on the K3 if you narrowed the bandwidth from 2700 Hz to 100 Hz. The S meter would read 10 * log (2700/100) = 14 dB (2-3 S units) lower. Alan N1AL On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 21:59 -0600, Jim Miller KG0KP wrote: Seems to be quite a difference in the readings between the P3 showing S scale and he S meter reading on the K3. The software in both is up to date(recently at least). The difference is quite significant with the P3 being considerably lower. Maybe I don't know how to read the two meters. On the K3 I read the mostly steady peak reading excluding the static crashes if any. On the P3 using clear frequency noise as an example, I tend to read the average of the noise trace. Should I be reading the peaks (disregarding static crashes)? Is there a calibration I need to do? To which and where is the procedure spelled out? Will I will need to order the new XG3? (please) TIA, de Jim KG0KP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
Hi Doug, On Sat, 2011-05-07 at 17:10 +0100, Doug Turnbull wrote: Alan, Thank you for this, I have been wondering whether my P3 required calibration. I am not sure if this is mentioned in the manual but if not it should be. There's a section in the manual titled, How to Set Up and Interpret the P3 Display that covers that and a number of other issues. Panadapters and other types of spectrum analyzers are new to many operators so that section was written to address some of the questions that come up. 73, Alan N1AL The P3 is a new product and some of us are still learning. The forum once again proves valuable. 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Alan Bloom Sent: 06 May 2011 23:00 To: Jim Miller KG0KP Cc: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale The reason the P3 reads lower than the K3 on noise or SSB signals is that each display point on the P3 screen covers only a small bandwidth. As explained in the manual, each display point is about 1/450 of the span. For example, if the span is 45 kHz, then each display point only covers about 100 Hz. You'd see the same effect on the K3 if you narrowed the bandwidth from 2700 Hz to 100 Hz. The S meter would read 10 * log (2700/100) = 14 dB (2-3 S units) lower. Alan N1AL On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 21:59 -0600, Jim Miller KG0KP wrote: Seems to be quite a difference in the readings between the P3 showing S scale and he S meter reading on the K3. The software in both is up to date(recently at least). The difference is quite significant with the P3 being considerably lower. Maybe I don't know how to read the two meters. On the K3 I read the mostly steady peak reading excluding the static crashes if any. On the P3 using clear frequency noise as an example, I tend to read the average of the noise trace. Should I be reading the peaks (disregarding static crashes)? Is there a calibration I need to do? To which and where is the procedure spelled out? Will I will need to order the new XG3? (please) TIA, de Jim KG0KP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
Seems to be quite a difference in the readings between the P3 showing S scale and he S meter reading on the K3. The software in both is up to date(recently at least). The difference is quite significant with the P3 being considerably lower. Maybe I don't know how to read the two meters. On the K3 I read the mostly steady peak reading excluding the static crashes if any. On the P3 using clear frequency noise as an example, I tend to read the average of the noise trace. Should I be reading the peaks (disregarding static crashes)? Is there a calibration I need to do? To which and where is the procedure spelled out? Will I will need to order the new XG3? (please) TIA, de Jim KG0KP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
Good Morning Jim, First, go to the Elecraft web site and verify that you have the latest version of the firmware for the K3 and P3. If you don't have it installed, install it. You do need to calibrate the P3 and the K3 S-Meters. To do this you will need an XG1, XG2 or XG3. Either will work. 1. Calibrate the K3 according to the instructions in the manual. 2. Enter the P3 menu by tapping the menu button. 3. Find the Ref Lvl scale display mode menu item and tap the Select knob on the k3 until you see S-meter readings on the left side of the scale. 4. Find the Calibrate amplitude level menu item. 5. Using the which ever XG version you have (You can also use a signal generator) adjust the amplitude level with the XG device set to 50 microvolts output until the signal in the P3 reads S9. Both the K3 and P3 have instructions for setting the K3 S-meter and the P3 amplitude level. Enjoy your K3 and P3. 73, Tom Amateur Radio Operator N5GE On Thu, 5 May 2011 21:59:43 -0600, Jim Miller KG0KP jimmil...@stl-online.net wrote: Seems to be quite a difference in the readings between the P3 showing S scale and he S meter reading on the K3. The software in both is up to date(recently at least). The difference is quite significant with the P3 being considerably lower. Maybe I don't know how to read the two meters. On the K3 I read the mostly steady peak reading excluding the static crashes if any. On the P3 using clear frequency noise as an example, I tend to read the average of the noise trace. Should I be reading the peaks (disregarding static crashes)? Is there a calibration I need to do? To which and where is the procedure spelled out? Will I will need to order the new XG3? (please) TIA, de Jim KG0KP [snip] __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
On a steady carrier (i.e. from a signal generator), both the P3 and K3 should read the same. My P3 reads much lower on actual signals than the K3, it is especially noticeable on SSB signals. Calibrating on a signal generator doesn't alter the lower reading of a P3 display on SSB signals. The peak reading facility of the P3 goes some way to overcome the lower reading but has an infinite decay... if it had an adjustable decay (or better still the normal display had a peak/decay setting) then the display would be far more useful. 73 Dave, G4AON Seems to be quite a difference in the readings between the P3 showing S scale and he S meter reading on the K3 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
There will also be a difference on anything but a steady state carrier unless the P3 is in 'peak' display mode. An averaged SSB signal will show a lower reading on the P3 than the S-meter, for example. Grant/NQ5T Sent from my iPhone On May 6, 2011, at 9:45 AM, n...@n5ge.com wrote: Good Morning Jim, First, go to the Elecraft web site and verify that you have the latest version of the firmware for the K3 and P3. If you don't have it installed, install it. You do need to calibrate the P3 and the K3 S-Meters. To do this you will need an XG1, XG2 or XG3. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
If you have the P3's AVERAGE enabled, it can lower the peak shown on the P3. If at the same time, you have CONFIG:SMTR PK turned ON, there will probably be a significant difference between the two indicated levels. The K3's S-Meter will hang on the peaks for a short time, maybe long enough for you to hit the next voice or signal peak (makes it artificially high). There's also a calibration for S-Meter and RF Gain shown in the OM (p51 of Rev D9). This doesn't normally need to be done because the facotry calibration is sufficient. The RF Gain calibration can be done using the K3 Utility, under the Calibration tab (...I think...). One way to be sure you are seeing signal levels as they are is to use a signal generator to put out a steady carrier (or use the ref oscillator @ 49.whatever-it-is). Since the peak and average are the same, the two readouts should be the same. I think there's a calibration for the P3's scale gain, but not sure about it since it's never been needed. You should just order the XG3 anyway. It's a heckuva great tool to have around and makes a decent QRP CW transmitter too. 73 and Good Luck! matt W6NIA On Thu, 05 May 2011 21:59:43 -0600, you wrote: Seems to be quite a difference in the readings between the P3 showing S scale and he S meter reading on the K3. The software in both is up to date(recently at least). The difference is quite significant with the P3 being considerably lower. Maybe I don't know how to read the two meters. On the K3 I read the mostly steady peak reading excluding the static crashes if any. On the P3 using clear frequency noise as an example, I tend to read the average of the noise trace. Should I be reading the peaks (disregarding static crashes)? Is there a calibration I need to do? To which and where is the procedure spelled out? Will I will need to order the new XG3? (please) TIA, de Jim KG0KP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
On 5/6/2011 7:52 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote: If you have the P3's AVERAGE enabled, it can lower the peak shown on the P3. This is entirely normal behavior. I have my S-meter set to read peaks and use it to give signal reports, but I set the P3 to very heavily average what it sees. This smooths out the noise and makes it much easier to see signals. The peak to average ratio is typically between 6 and 10 dB. You can see this by temporarily turning on the peak hold function. I've assigned the peak function to one of the soft buttons. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
The reason the P3 reads lower than the K3 on noise or SSB signals is that each display point on the P3 screen covers only a small bandwidth. As explained in the manual, each display point is about 1/450 of the span. For example, if the span is 45 kHz, then each display point only covers about 100 Hz. You'd see the same effect on the K3 if you narrowed the bandwidth from 2700 Hz to 100 Hz. The S meter would read 10 * log (2700/100) = 14 dB (2-3 S units) lower. Alan N1AL On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 21:59 -0600, Jim Miller KG0KP wrote: Seems to be quite a difference in the readings between the P3 showing S scale and he S meter reading on the K3. The software in both is up to date(recently at least). The difference is quite significant with the P3 being considerably lower. Maybe I don't know how to read the two meters. On the K3 I read the mostly steady peak reading excluding the static crashes if any. On the P3 using clear frequency noise as an example, I tend to read the average of the noise trace. Should I be reading the peaks (disregarding static crashes)? Is there a calibration I need to do? To which and where is the procedure spelled out? Will I will need to order the new XG3? (please) TIA, de Jim KG0KP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
When an SSB signal is S9, that means that the total power in the ≈ 3 kHz bandwidth, added up, is equal to S9. The voice power is spread out across 3 kHz of bandwidth and has to be integrated, or summed, in that bandwidth before comparing to an S-meter reading. Therefore, the amplitude of any point inside the SSB signal, as seen on a panadaptor, will always seem less than actual. Noise, being a broadband signal, also acts the same way. You have to know the receiver bandwidth to properly integrate all of the power inside that bandwidth to come up with a meaningful average power number to compare to an S-meter. A CW signal, on the other hand, exists at only one frequency (ignoring noise and keying sidebands). The amplitude of a CW signal on the P3 should be close to a calibrated S-meter. In the case of the P3, close means within a few dB. There is nothing wrong with your setup. Enjoy it in good health. R, Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
THANKS everybody. Some very good definitions. I didn't think anything was really broken and sisn't really believe it was out of calibration either but jsut did not understand wht appearant difference. Good to know that all is well. Thanke es 73, de Jim KG0KP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale
I need coffee!! 73, de Jim KG0KP - Original Message - From: Jim Miller KG0KP jimmil...@stl-online.net To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter vs P3 S scale THANKS everybody. Some very good definitions. I didn't think anything was really broken and sisn't really believe it was out of calibration either but jsut did not understand wht appearant difference. Good to know that all is well. Thanke es 73, de Jim KG0KP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [K3] s-meter data logger software available?
I would like to plot band condition changes during the day and night. S-Meter Lite software does a nice job with OLD Kenwood and Yaesu receivers. See: http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Software/SMeterLite.htm Is anyone aware of software that would plot signal strength of the K3 over a day or two? 73, Richard Wheeler ai6rw __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] s-meter data logger software available?
I wonder if there is any way the P3 could do this ? Convention has the P3 displaying signal strength v frequency. Could it show signal strength v time ? John G4ZTR -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Richard Wheeler Sent: 05 April 2011 19:17 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Cc: rich...@wheeler.com Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] s-meter data logger software available? I would like to plot band condition changes during the day and night. S-Meter Lite software does a nice job with OLD Kenwood and Yaesu receivers. See: http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Software/SMeterLite.htm Is anyone aware of software that would plot signal strength of the K3 over a day or two? 73, Richard Wheeler ai6rw __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6017 (20110405) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6017 (20110405) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] s-meter data logger software available?
What are you monitoring? If it is cw then the Reverse Beacon network is always monitoring the signal and you can search all the different receivers around the world and compare the signals received. reversebeacon.net On 4/5/11 12:50 PM, John Lemay wrote: I wonder if there is any way the P3 could do this ? Convention has the P3 displaying signal strength v frequency. Could it show signal strength v time ? John G4ZTR -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Richard Wheeler Sent: 05 April 2011 19:17 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Cc: rich...@wheeler.com Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] s-meter data logger software available? I would like to plot band condition changes during the day and night. S-Meter Lite software does a nice job with OLD Kenwood and Yaesu receivers. See: http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Software/SMeterLite.htm Is anyone aware of software that would plot signal strength of the K3 over a day or two? 73, Richard Wheeler ai6rw __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6017 (20110405) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6017 (20110405) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] s-meter data logger software available?
Yes it could. It's called waterfall display. Don't know if there's a way to buffer/log the screen data, though. 73 ON4WIX - Original Message - From: John Lemay j...@carltonhouse.eclipse.co.uk To: 'Richard Wheeler' rich...@wheeler.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] s-meter data logger software available? I wonder if there is any way the P3 could do this ? Convention has the P3 displaying signal strength v frequency. Could it show signal strength v time ? John G4ZTR -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Richard Wheeler Sent: 05 April 2011 19:17 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Cc: rich...@wheeler.com Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] s-meter data logger software available? I would like to plot band condition changes during the day and night. S-Meter Lite software does a nice job with OLD Kenwood and Yaesu receivers. See: http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Software/SMeterLite.htm Is anyone aware of software that would plot signal strength of the K3 over a day or two? 73, Richard Wheeler ai6rw __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6017 (20110405) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6017 (20110405) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] s-meter data logger software available?
John, The color variation in the waterfall display already indicates signal strength over time. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/5/2011 2:50 PM, John Lemay wrote: I wonder if there is any way the P3 could do this ? Convention has the P3 displaying signal strength v frequency. Could it show signal strength v time ? John G4ZTR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] s-meter data logger software available?
Mike, I am trying to measure background noise on 75 meters in my city location. The noise level in the city is 20dB higher than in my rural location so I think it must be coming from local companies. I want to plot the noise level over several days to separate ionospheric noise from local noise. When I locate where the local noise is coming from I will try to cancel it out. 73, Richard ai6rw Mike Fatchett Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:58:07 -0700 What are you monitoring? If it is cw then the Reverse Beacon network is always monitoring the signal and you can search all the different receivers around the world and compare the signals received. reversebeacon.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 S-meter on sub-Rx
I am installing a new 2m transverter to my K3 and ran into an issue with the s-meter on the K3. The transverter has two Rx circuits so both the main and sub-Rx in the K3 are fed with converted 2m signal. I was adjusting the IF gain in the transverter so that the noise level would read S2-S3 on the K3. These are two separate gain pots one controlling the input to KVX3 Rx input and the other the aux input. All that was going well, but I discovered that the s-meter only indicates signals from the main-Rx. I have the sub-Rx input coming from the aux antenna and not being fed from ANT1. I can hear the change in noise level in the sub-Rx when I connect/disconnect to the aux antennas jack, but it is not showing up on the s-meter when the sub Rx is selected. I discovered this after a lot of confusion, thinking I had a problem in the sub-Rx. Is this normal (no s-meter reading from the sub-Rx?). It is not really a big issue as I can adjust the level by looking at my two LP-Pan displays. Just very surprised by the lack of s-meter function on the sub-Rx. I wonder if this is an issue when running in transverter mode (CONFIG: XVN ON)? 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-testing*, 3400-winter? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@hotmail.com == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter on sub-Rx
While tuned into a signal on the Sub RX, do a hold on BSET. This will give you the S meter reading for the Sub RX tuned to the frequency in VFO B. This is also how you do other Sub RX settings, such as ATT/PRE. See page 37 in the manual, available in PDF format on the Elecraft site. You should be sure that you did the (separate) RF gain calibration and S meter calibration for both main and Sub RX, before you set your Transverter RX feed levels. 73, Guy. On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 5:05 AM, Edward R. Cole kl...@acsalaska.net wrote: I am installing a new 2m transverter to my K3 and ran into an issue with the s-meter on the K3. The transverter has two Rx circuits so both the main and sub-Rx in the K3 are fed with converted 2m signal. I was adjusting the IF gain in the transverter so that the noise level would read S2-S3 on the K3. These are two separate gain pots one controlling the input to KVX3 Rx input and the other the aux input. All that was going well, but I discovered that the s-meter only indicates signals from the main-Rx. I have the sub-Rx input coming from the aux antenna and not being fed from ANT1. I can hear the change in noise level in the sub-Rx when I connect/disconnect to the aux antennas jack, but it is not showing up on the s-meter when the sub Rx is selected. I discovered this after a lot of confusion, thinking I had a problem in the sub-Rx. Is this normal (no s-meter reading from the sub-Rx?). It is not really a big issue as I can adjust the level by looking at my two LP-Pan displays. Just very surprised by the lack of s-meter function on the sub-Rx. I wonder if this is an issue when running in transverter mode (CONFIG: XVN ON)? 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-testing*, 3400-winter? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@hotmail.com == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter on sub-Rx
Thanks to K2AV and G0AFH for how to get the sub-Rx s-meter readings. Also advice on RF gain Calib. on both Rx. This was just a preliminary set up to get things close for a starting point. As it turns out I got the two Rx within 1/2 s-unit of equal using ambient noise: Main Rx (Vpol) = S7; sub-Rx (H-pol) = S6 And that can be a difference in noise polarization at the antenna. I will have to do a very thorough RF calibration with all components connected in the system for getting the dual-polarity diversity system set up properly. This includes preamp gains, cable losses, K3 IF gain variation, LP-Pan variation and soundcard levels. Both channels need to be made equal in amplitude using a single signal source. Only then will the Linrad sw indicate polarity angle accurately. See more of what I am doing: 73, Ed At 06:00 AM 3/30/2011, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: While tuned into a signal on the Sub RX, do a hold on BSET. This will give you the S meter reading for the Sub RX tuned to the frequency in VFO B. This is also how you do other Sub RX settings, such as ATT/PRE. See page 37 in the manual, available in PDF format on the Elecraft site. You should be sure that you did the (separate) RF gain calibration and S meter calibration for both main and Sub RX, before you set your Transverter RX feed levels. 73, Guy. On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 5:05 AM, Edward R. Cole kl...@acsalaska.net wrote: I am installing a new 2m transverter to my K3 and ran into an issue with the s-meter on the K3. The transverter has two Rx circuits so both the main and sub-Rx in the K3 are fed with converted 2m signal. I was adjusting the IF gain in the transverter so that the noise level would read S2-S3 on the K3. These are two separate gain pots one controlling the input to KVX3 Rx input and the other the aux input. All that was going well, but I discovered that the s-meter only indicates signals from the main-Rx. I have the sub-Rx input coming from the aux antenna and not being fed from ANT1. I can hear the change in noise level in the sub-Rx when I connect/disconnect to the aux antennas jack, but it is not showing up on the s-meter when the sub Rx is selected. I discovered this after a lot of confusion, thinking I had a problem in the sub-Rx. Is this normal (no s-meter reading from the sub-Rx?). It is not really a big issue as I can adjust the level by looking at my two LP-Pan displays. Just very surprised by the lack of s-meter function on the sub-Rx. I wonder if this is an issue when running in transverter mode (CONFIG: XVN ON)? 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-testing*, 3400-winter? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@hotmail.com == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-testing*, 3400-winter? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@hotmail.com == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S-meter on sub-Rx
My reply got sent before inserting the link: http://www.kl7uw.com/DEMI144-28DRX.htm 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-testing*, 3400-winter? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@hotmail.com == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter calibration
It hasn't always been like this and I'm sure there will be a software fix. I hope it's on the Elecraft to do list ? John G4ZTR -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Roger Dallimore Sent: 14 March 2011 19:30 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter calibration Mines' the same, about S4/5 maximum. Pity, works great otherwise. 73 Roger MW0IDX K3 #191 K2 #2724 KX1 #416 Hi Georges, Like you I cannot fathom why the K144XV is so low in it's received signal strength, I too see no better than S3-S4 on signals that on all other radios are S9-S9+. I (and others) have asked Elecraft about the discrepancy but as yet the low S meter reading issue remains unfixed. It used to read a little high when compared to other rigs and firmware version 3.97 made it read quite accurately. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5952 (20110314) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5953 (20110314) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter calibration
So do I. There have been postings to the reflector about it over a long period. I believe it's a question of making S9 = -93dbm on 2m. 73 to all Geoff G3UCK - Original Message - From: John Lemay j...@carltonhouse.eclipse.co.uk To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter calibration It hasn't always been like this and I'm sure there will be a software fix. I hope it's on the Elecraft to do list ? John G4ZTR Mines' the same, about S4/5 maximum. Pity, works great otherwise. 73 Roger MW0IDX K3 #191 K2 #2724 KX1 #416 Hi Georges, Like you I cannot fathom why the K144XV is so low in it's received signal strength, I too see no better than S3-S4 on signals that on all other radios are S9-S9+. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S meter calibration
Mines' the same, about S4/5 maximum. Pity, works great otherwise. 73 Roger MW0IDX K3 #191 K2 #2724 KX1 #416 Hi Georges, Like you I cannot fathom why the K144XV is so low in it's received signal strength, I too see no better than S3-S4 on signals that on all other radios are S9-S9+. I (and others) have asked Elecraft about the discrepancy but as yet the low S meter reading issue remains unfixed. It used to read a little high when compared to other rigs and firmware version 3.97 made it read quite accurately. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Understood. My poorly described point was that the signal strength as reported by the s-meter may not provide a good description of the signal strength you heard which may be influenced by the ?bandwidth? of the signal passing through the meter. Readability can be influenced by factors other than by signal strength. How wide is the band being read by the s-meter circuit, and can signal strength be influenced by the power distribution within that s-meter band width, in particular by varying the TX or RX equalizer? Rich NU6T On 7/15/2010 9:38 AM, The Smiths wrote: Rich, You DO tell the other person how you are receiving them.. That's the R part of the report READABILITY... If you have difficultly with copy of their signal you can go from 1 to 5 with that report. The S meter still tells you how well their signal strength is at your QTH. Even if you have a Superdupper rig that can filter every bit of noise out of the signal chain, and you can hear them as if they were sitting right next to you, it doesn't mean that the standard for Signal strength has changed. The guy on the other end of the radio just wants to know how well he's pushing your meter up and down with his antenna set up (and your antenna as part of that factor).. The readability part will let him know if his rig is doing a good job of filtering the noise so he can copy you. I've had RST reports of 379 because the other person could clearly see that my signal strength was there, but the QRN was keeping him from having clear copy of it. With your method and a loud noise floor I would have most likely got a 419 instead. Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:58:27 -0700 From: reh...@ix.netcom.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same. Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm hearing that the actual power stays the same. We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent loudness we hear by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the same effect. That seems to mean that a standard S7 signal could sound like something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that is the result of more than the meter reading. The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get started. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Rich, Usually, the s-meter samples the signal at the final IF so most of the IF filtering will reject signals off-frequency. Since normally this is done before the detector stage, audio bandwidth characteristics (what the equalizers affect) are not involved. But I must disclaim knowing anything, in particular, on how the K3 does it. So you are correct that bandwidth can be a factor it usually is not. But if there is a 1.5 kW station down the block that is 10-KHz off frequency, you will certainly hear him and see it on the s-meter. Again, that is based on normal ham radios and not the K3. Some of the reports of multi-station operations in field day indicate the superior performance of the K3. If you do not hear a signal you should not see it on the s-meter. 73, Ed - Message: 39 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 07:30:34 -0700 From: Richard Hill reh...@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior To: The Smiths notforc...@hotmail.com Cc: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Message-ID: 4c406d0a.8050...@ix.netcom.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Understood. My poorly described point was that the signal strength as reported by the s-meter may not provide a good description of the signal strength you heard which may be influenced by the ?bandwidth? of the signal passing through the meter. Readability can be influenced by factors other than by signal strength. How wide is the band being read by the s-meter circuit, and can signal strength be influenced by the power distribution within that s-meter band width, in particular by varying the TX or RX equalizer? Rich NU6T 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 144-QRT*, 432-100w, 1296-QRT*, 3400-fall 2010 DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@hotmail.com == *temp __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted. I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9. Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it too.. But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't know what to tell the guy. If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets directions from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people asking in the wrong direction. The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig. Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an Ignore your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter. 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400 From: w3...@embarqmail.com To: n...@comcast.net CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Robert, You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter, but it is just good operating sense. just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy with some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point. _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding yourself if you think differently. 73, Dave AB7E On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote: I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted. I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9. Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it too.. But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't know what to tell the guy. If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets directions from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people asking in the wrong direction. The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig. Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an Ignore your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter. 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400 From: w3...@embarqmail.com To: n...@comcast.net CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Robert, You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter, but it is just good operating sense. just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy with some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much feedback so fast! While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to use my S meter to give the Strength report and believe that an S7 signal should read S7 even if the RF gain is turned down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute and have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've heard many perfectly readable signals that sounded like they were S9 but were, to my surprise, an S3 or S5. Except for contests I like to send and receive accurate strength reports. Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and the S meter when it arrives. I'll post again once I've completed the alignment. Till then I'll be on the air enjoying my awesome K3! On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote: Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. r. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Don, I don't see that to be the case. The action of the s-meter in ABS mode does change when the RF Gain has been reduced. If you turn the RF Gain to 12 o'clock the s-meter goes to S9+30db. 73, Drew AF2Z On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:34:22 -0400, Don W3FPR wrote: Robert, The K3 does have a cure, and that is to set the S-meter to ABS (absolute) in the Configuration Menu (see the manual). With that setting, the S-meter does not change with the PRE/ATT/RF Gain. 73, Don W3FPR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
The way I understand it, turning donw the RF Gain does not improve the signal's s-meter strength. The increasing level of the s-meter as you reduce the RF Gain indicates the level that a signal would need to attain in order to be heard. For example, if you turn the RF Gain to 12 o'clock you will only be able to detect signals that are approx S9+30db or greater. Personally, I would prefer that the s-meter not operate in this way in ABS mode. RF Gain should have no effect on the s-meter action when in ABS mode, just as ATT and PRE do not. 73, Drew AF2Z On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:03:19 +, The Smiths wrote: The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig. Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an Ignore your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter. 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same. Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm hearing that the actual power stays the same. We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent loudness we hear by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the same effect. That seems to mean that a standard S7 signal could sound like something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that is the result of more than the meter reading. Rich NU6T On 7/15/2010 5:49 AM, Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote: Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much feedback so fast! While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to use my S meter to give the Strength report and believe that an S7 signal should read S7 even if the RF gain is turned down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute and have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've heard many perfectly readable signals that sounded like they were S9 but were, to my surprise, an S3 or S5. Except for contests I like to send and receive accurate strength reports. Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and the S meter when it arrives. I'll post again once I've completed the alignment. Till then I'll be on the air enjoying my awesome K3! On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote: Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. r. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Don I performed both functions and they pretty much delivered the expexted results. However, I noticed something I consider counter-intuitive. It is possible to engage PRE and ATT simultaneously. Is there any advantage to this? Paul, NU4C From: Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com To: Robert Mitilieri - N9EF n...@comcast.net Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Thu, July 15, 2010 12:30:07 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Robert, You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. If you have an S-3 noise level, the first attack is to turn off the preamp - if that does not reduce the noise level enough, then turn the Attenuator ON. snip __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Aloha Peoples I rarely ever give the other station an s meter reading, Instead I usually describe how I am receiving him. S meter readings dont seem to tell me how well I am understanding what is being said by the other station. Grandmaw Susan If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm AFA9SM USSV DHARMA --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Richard Hill reh...@ix.netcom.com wrote: From: Richard Hill reh...@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 3:58 AM I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same. Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm hearing that the actual power stays the same. We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent loudness we hear by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the same effect. That seems to mean that a standard S7 signal could sound like something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that is the result of more than the meter reading. Rich NU6T On 7/15/2010 5:49 AM, Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote: Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much feedback so fast! While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to use my S meter to give the Strength report and believe that an S7 signal should read S7 even if the RF gain is turned down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute and have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've heard many perfectly readable signals that sounded like they were S9 but were, to my surprise, an S3 or S5. Except for contests I like to send and receive accurate strength reports. Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and the S meter when it arrives. I'll post again once I've completed the alignment. Till then I'll be on the air enjoying my awesome K3! On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote: Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. r. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
I do understand that my statement below may not make sense for digital modes grin. Rich NU6T On 7/15/2010 6:58 AM, Richard Hill wrote: I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same. Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm hearing that the actual power stays the same. We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent loudness we hear by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the same effect. That seems to mean that a standard S7 signal could sound like something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that is the result of more than the meter reading. Rich NU6T On 7/15/2010 5:49 AM, Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote: Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much feedback so fast! While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to use my S meter to give the Strength report and believe that an S7 signal should read S7 even if the RF gain is turned down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute and have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've heard many perfectly readable signals that sounded like they were S9 but were, to my surprise, an S3 or S5. Except for contests I like to send and receive accurate strength reports. Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and the S meter when it arrives. I'll post again once I've completed the alignment. Till then I'll be on the air enjoying my awesome K3! On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote: Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. r. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
TheSmiths said: 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. Actually, this statement is inaccurate and the RST code never specifies S meter readings but this perception is a common misconception. 559 means Readability Excellent, Fairly Strong Signals, Perfect tone, no trace of ripple or modulation of any kind. The S-meter reading has little to do with the RST or RS report. RST is a subjective code and depends on an operator's opinion of the signal. An S-meter reading is a stand alone method of comparing relative signal strength that may help support an operator's opinion when needed. The RST code is fully explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RST_code 73, Bob K5WA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
What a silly question.. Again, some of you guys just have to be so over technical about EVERYTHING. I'm certain that sometimes being TOO smart can be a detriment to your own self. This is an S meter, it's used by some to give an S report. Part of an RST.. This isn't a scientific calibration device.. If you're talking to someone in XYZ QTH and you have your antenna pointed at XYZ's location, or you have an omni directional antenna and it's receiving XYZ location at 4 S units, and You can hear them clearly and their tone is correct.. They have an RS(T) of 54(9). Sorry dave, it's really just that simple. If you've set a standard for your S meter during it's calibration then S 4 means 4.. Not oh my goodness is there gain on my antenna, do I need to factor in his azimuth and the arrival angle of his signal to my antenna.. JUST STOP, and enjoy your hobby for a change, don't over think it. Or even worse, try to be technical to impress people on the reflector. We all know that there are a lot of guys on here that know a LOT about a LOT of things... But they don't need to try to impress nor answer EVERYONE with their knowledge EVERY time. Save it for when it really counts, not on how to read an S meter. Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:27:40 -0700 From: xda...@cis-broadband.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding yourself if you think differently. 73, Dave AB7E On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote: I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted. I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9. Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it too.. But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't know what to tell the guy. If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets directions from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people asking in the wrong direction. The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig. Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an Ignore your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter. 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400 From: w3...@embarqmail.com To: n...@comcast.net CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Robert, You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter, but it is just good operating sense. just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy with some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
As far as I have ever known, the S-meter reading has nothing to do with the S of RST signal report. The S is itself defined as the somewhat subjective measure of how strong the signal appears to be (see the definition of each of the numbers from 1 to 9). I do admit that many people use the S-meter reading as some kind of measure for giving the S of RST but officially the S of RST is not an S-meter value. On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:08 AM, The Smiths wrote: What a silly question.. Again, some of you guys just have to be so over technical about EVERYTHING. I'm certain that sometimes being TOO smart can be a detriment to your own self. This is an S meter, it's used by some to give an S report. Part of an RST.. This isn't a scientific calibration device.. If you're talking to someone in XYZ QTH and you have your antenna pointed at XYZ's location, or you have an omni directional antenna and it's receiving XYZ location at 4 S units, and You can hear them clearly and their tone is correct.. They have an RS(T) of 54(9). Sorry dave, it's really just that simple. If you've set a standard for your S meter during it's calibration then S 4 means 4.. Not oh my goodness is there gain on my antenna, do I need to factor in his azimuth and the arrival angle of his signal to my antenna.. JUST STOP, and enjoy your hobby for a change, don't over think it. Or even worse, try to be technical to impress people on the reflector. We all know that there are a lot of guys on here that know a LOT about a LOT of things... But they don't need to try to impress nor answer EVERYONE with their knowledge EVERY time. Save it for when it really counts, not on how to read an S meter. Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:27:40 -0700 From: xda...@cis-broadband.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding yourself if you think differently. 73, Dave AB7E On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote: I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted. I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9. Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it too.. But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't know what to tell the guy. If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets directions from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people asking in the wrong direction. The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig. Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an Ignore your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter. 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400 From: w3...@embarqmail.com To: n...@comcast.net CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Robert, You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter, but it is just good operating sense. just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Personally, I would prefer that the s-meter not operate in this way in ABS mode. RF Gain should have no effect on the s-meter action when in ABS mode, just as ATT and PRE do not. It would probably screw up (highly technical term) how the system works, or require a separate receiver just for the S meter. The RF gain must be ahead of the DSP system. This means the real signal level to the DSP could be reduced 30 dB or even significantly more than that amount. How and why would someone design a DSP system that could measure the level on a signal that was not actually present??? There is no cheap or easy way to do that, so Elecraft does what everyone else does. Ever since receivers began, the RF gain will either affect the absolute S meter reading in relationship to input level, or the S meter will show the increase in gain reduction by increasing resting S meter reading as the gain is reduced. I think you want something that cannot be done. Besides, S meter are pretty much meaningless anyway. I only use mine to tell me when I need to use an attenuator pad or a preamp. 73 Tom __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
I'll take a stab at trying to explain how the s-meter works. Now the K3 may do it differently since it may be done by the DSP, but in normal analog radios, the IF is tapped at some point and goes to a noise amplifier and detector. This produces a varying dc signal that is used by the AGC circuit to control either RF gain or IF gain or both depending on the design. Usually the s-meter reads this varying dc level. RF gain allow the operator to shift AGC by adding a dc bias up or down, thus it should affect receiver gain. lowering RF gain lowers both noise and signal which may permit the receiver to operate at a better level for extracting the signal (i.e it sounds quieter). But by varying the AGC level the s-meter is fed a constant dc bias as well (typically the s-meter rises). In some designs the noise amplifier also drives the NB. So saying the s-meter is showing the level that would be needed to be heard is a little wrong. S-meter readings with RF gain reduced are just not calibrated and thus of little use. To divorce the s-meter from AGC takes more circuitry and it sounds like the K3 has that ability by use of the ABS mode (I leave it to the K3 experts to explain this if they desire). Loudness of audio and strength of signal are not the same, usually. In SSB there is a more direct connection as there is no carrier transmitted. In FM often audio can be set too low (low deviation) and still see a S9+ signal. Data mode don't usually speak in terms of loudness (unless your brain can decode FSK or PSK signals - little joke!). In general loudness is a function of modulation and not signal strength. But obviously this is a gross generalization and not very exact. 73, Ed - KL7UW -- Message: 30 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 09:49:27 -0400 From: drewko drew...@verizon.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior To: The Smiths notforc...@hotmail.com Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Message-ID: cb4u365nmms5oa7ob5pnbbs2qli30qh...@4ax.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The way I understand it, turning donw the RF Gain does not improve the signal's s-meter strength. The increasing level of the s-meter as you reduce the RF Gain indicates the level that a signal would need to attain in order to be heard. For example, if you turn the RF Gain to 12 o'clock you will only be able to detect signals that are approx S9+30db or greater. Personally, I would prefer that the s-meter not operate in this way in ABS mode. RF Gain should have no effect on the s-meter action when in ABS mode, just as ATT and PRE do not. 73, Drew AF2Z 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 144-QRT*, 432-100w, 1296-QRT*, 3400-fall 2010 DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@hotmail.com == *temp __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Actually the S meter is used so the Strength of the signal report is *not* subjective, that's reserved for Readability. I firmly believe that the Strength report must *not* be subjective, why else ever put a meter to measure signal Strength? In the case of signal Strength we *must* differentiate between perception and reality so we can let different stations know how strong their signals are received at our location, not how loud they sound; the two can be vastly different. ...and use of the S meter to report signal strength is supported by the referenced link: The S stands for Strength. Strength is an assessment of how powerful the received signal is at the receiving location. Although an accurate signal strength meter can determine a quantitative value for signal strength, in practice this portion of the RST code is a qualitative assessment, often made based on the S meter of the radio receiver at the location of signal reception. On Jul 15, 2010, at 11:00 AM, K5WA wrote: TheSmiths said: 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. Actually, this statement is inaccurate and the RST code never specifies S meter readings but this perception is a common misconception. 559 means Readability Excellent, Fairly Strong Signals, Perfect tone, no trace of ripple or modulation of any kind. The S-meter reading has little to do with the RST or RS report. RST is a subjective code and depends on an operator's opinion of the signal. An S-meter reading is a stand alone method of comparing relative signal strength that may help support an operator's opinion when needed. The RST code is fully explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RST_code __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Rich, You DO tell the other person how you are receiving them.. That's the R part of the report READABILITY... If you have difficultly with copy of their signal you can go from 1 to 5 with that report. The S meter still tells you how well their signal strength is at your QTH. Even if you have a Superdupper rig that can filter every bit of noise out of the signal chain, and you can hear them as if they were sitting right next to you, it doesn't mean that the standard for Signal strength has changed. The guy on the other end of the radio just wants to know how well he's pushing your meter up and down with his antenna set up (and your antenna as part of that factor).. The readability part will let him know if his rig is doing a good job of filtering the noise so he can copy you. I've had RST reports of 379 because the other person could clearly see that my signal strength was there, but the QRN was keeping him from having clear copy of it. With your method and a loud noise floor I would have most likely got a 419 instead. Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:58:27 -0700 From: reh...@ix.netcom.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same. Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm hearing that the actual power stays the same. We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent loudness we hear by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the same effect. That seems to mean that a standard S7 signal could sound like something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that is the result of more than the meter reading. _ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Yes, you can change the gain structure of your receiver. If you want -20dB turn on the ATT, if you want plus 6dB put on the Pre, turn them both on and you've only cut -14dB.. My numbers may be off, but the theory is still there. It's just about having the ability for variables in your adjustments. Or you can just think of it as a little less ATT.. Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:59:37 -0700 From: n...@bellsouth.net To: d...@w3fpr.com CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Don I performed both functions and they pretty much delivered the expexted results. However, I noticed something I consider counter-intuitive. It is possible to engage PRE and ATT simultaneously. Is there any advantage to this? Paul, NU4C From: Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com To: Robert Mitilieri - N9EF n...@comcast.net Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Thu, July 15, 2010 12:30:07 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Robert, You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. If you have an S-3 noise level, the first attack is to turn off the preamp - if that does not reduce the noise level enough, then turn the Attenuator ON. snip __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendarocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Has there -ever- been a subject in ham radio that's generated as much argument and discussion over the years? I think not. 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Exactly! Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off reflector email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some time (1970's when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we were able to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST. Now R is just that, Readability. How well can you copy someone. S is Strength of the meter, which everyone should have set to the same approximate level, and T for quality of tone. Some old habits die hard. Not everything first invented in Ham radio has to be forced until the world ends. Much to some peoples Chagrin, we DO evolve as ham radio operators. From: n...@comcast.net Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:38:09 -0500 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Actually the S meter is used so the Strength of the signal report is *not* subjective, that's reserved for Readability. I firmly believe that the Strength report must *not* be subjective, why else ever put a meter to measure signal Strength? In the case of signal Strength we *must* differentiate between perception and reality so we can let different stations know how strong their signals are received at our location, not how loud they sound; the two can be vastly different. ...and use of the S meter to report signal strength is supported by the referenced link: The S stands for Strength. Strength is an assessment of how powerful the received signal is at the receiving location. Although an accurate signal strength meter can determine a quantitative value for signal strength, in practice this portion of the RST code is a qualitative assessment, often made based on the S meter of the radio receiver at the location of signal reception. On Jul 15, 2010, at 11:00 AM, K5WA wrote: TheSmiths said: 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. Actually, this statement is inaccurate and the RST code never specifies S meter readings but this perception is a common misconception. 559 means Readability Excellent, Fairly Strong Signals, Perfect tone, no trace of ripple or modulation of any kind. The S-meter reading has little to do with the RST or RS report. RST is a subjective code and depends on an operator's opinion of the signal. An S-meter reading is a stand alone method of comparing relative signal strength that may help support an operator's opinion when needed. The RST code is fully explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RST_code __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off reflector email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some time (1970's when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we were able to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST. There may be a standard some people believe in, but it is a paper standard that never took hold. Drake used 5 db per S unit as a goal, ICOM about the same. Collins was down around 3 dB per S unit as a target. Most receivers are around 1 dB or so per S unit down around S 1, and very few prior to digital processing were ever remotely linear over the S range. My FT1000MP MKV, sitting in front of me now, is 2 S units per 6 dB at S8 and the very same 6 db pad drops it from S5 to S0 (it has that scale point, even though there is no such thing). I've never measured the K3 for many reasons. S meters historically have been very poor, absolute signal level at a receiver is not an indication of field strength in volts-per-meter, volts-per-meter is not a constant indication of S/N ratio or even how loud a signal is, and so on. This whole thing is an exercise similar to arguing how to measure plate milliamps using #47 light bulb. How would Elecraft or anyone else measure the meaningless S units of an S3 signal when RF gain is set so the DSP only sees an S5 signal at the lowest signal sensitivity? Why work to know what isn't even important, and what is never useful? 73 Tom __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
On Jul 15, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: There may be a standard some people believe in, but it is a paper standard that never took hold. I always thought the standard was you're 5x9 here OM, and please repeat your call, QTH and my signal report :-) Grant/NQ5T __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
As this drifts further from the original topic... I find it amusing that a station will ask me to repeat my callsign and name several times, and then give me a 59 report. I think I messed up several people over the weekend contest by giving them 5-7 08 reports instead of what they expected. One station actually lost their contest tempo when I came back with 45 zone 8. Working back toward the original topic... I generally give signal reports based on what I think the signal would be with the RF gain fully clockwise, and attenuator and preamp both turned off. To me, that would be the natural and unmodified smeter reading. (I've never given better than 57 on 10 meters.) This best meets my understanding of what that portion of the signal report should be: A report of signal level as it is received by my rig (and not a signal level as my rig has modified it.) Of course, I'm a newbie ham, so I'm probably doing it all wrong. 73 - Gary / k3wow On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:21 PM, The Smiths wrote: Exactly! Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off reflector email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some time (1970's when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we were able to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST. Now R is just that, Readability. How well can you copy someone. S is Strength of the meter, which everyone should have set to the same approximate level, and T for quality of tone. Some old habits die hard. Not everything first invented in Ham radio has to be forced until the world ends. Much to some peoples Chagrin, we DO evolve as ham radio operators. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior [END of Thread]
This topic has easily exceeded the 'Too many postings' limit. Time to end this topic for now. In the future, on a high volume topic like this, please self regulate. :-) 73, Eric WA6HHQ Elecraft List modulator __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Did you mean The readability part will let him know if _your_ rig is doing a good job of filtering.. instead of The readability part will let him know if _his_ rig is doing a good job of filtering...? ' 73, Mike NF4L On 7/15/2010 12:38 PM, The Smiths wrote: Rich, You DO tell the other person how you are receiving them.. That's the R part of the report READABILITY... If you have difficultly with copy of their signal you can go from 1 to 5 with that report. The S meter still tells you how well their signal strength is at your QTH. Even if you have a Superdupper rig that can filter every bit of noise out of the signal chain, and you can hear them as if they were sitting right next to you, it doesn't mean that the standard for Signal strength has changed. The guy on the other end of the radio just wants to know how well he's pushing your meter up and down with his antenna set up (and your antenna as part of that factor).. The readability part will let him know if his rig is doing a good job of filtering the noise so he can copy you. I've had RST reports of 379 because the other person could clearly see that my signal strength was there, but the QRN was keeping him from having clear copy of it. With your method and a loud noise floor I would have most likely got a 419 instead. Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:58:27 -0700 From: reh...@ix.netcom.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same. Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm hearing that the actual power stays the same. We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent loudness we hear by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the same effect. That seems to mean that a standard S7 signal could sound like something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that is the result of more than the meter reading. _ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
I think you miss my point entirely. I never said that you needed to know the gain characteristics of your antenna ... only that since you don't (none of us do since we don't know what the arrival angle is) any S-meter reading is only a relative indication of received signal strength anyway. You're all upset that the S-meter on the K3 (as with just about every other rig on the market) shifts as you change RF Gain, but in all reality it is a meaningless consideration anyway. Relative is all you get no matter what you think the K3 should be able to do, or would be able to do if it had a lab quality RF voltmeter. I'm not trying to impress anyone or be overly technical, but I will try to put it in simpler terms for you. Let's say that you have two antennas that both function on 40m but physically they don't look at all alike. Neither you nor the guy on the other end has any clue what the gain, pattern, and efficiency is for either of them. Let's also say that you have a calibrated RF microvoltmeter (complete with handy chart to convert to S-units if desired) and you check his signal on both antennas. As expected, you get different readings from the two antennas. What do you give the other guy for his report? You have two different voltmeter readings and since you don't know the parameters of either antenna, neither reading has any correlation at all to the strength of the arriving signal. Even your own two readings are not the same. Your only recourse is to give the guy a subjective report relative to other signals on the band at the time. So how is that any different than what you have right now? You stated, I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9. Yet, when I pointed out the even greater influence of the antenna on the actual signal level of a station you're talking to, you reply that it's silly and irrelevant. There's something wrong with that picture. 73, Dave AB7E On 7/15/2010 9:08 AM, The Smiths wrote: What a silly question.. Again, some of you guys just have to be so over technical about EVERYTHING. I'm certain that sometimes being TOO smart can be a detriment to your own self. This is an S meter, it's used by some to give an S report. Part of an RST.. This isn't a scientific calibration device.. If you're talking to someone in XYZ QTH and you have your antenna pointed at XYZ's location, or you have an omni directional antenna and it's receiving XYZ location at 4 S units, and You can hear them clearly and their tone is correct.. They have an RS(T) of 54(9). Sorry dave, it's really just that simple. If you've set a standard for your S meter during it's calibration then S 4 means 4.. Not oh my goodness is there gain on my antenna, do I need to factor in his azimuth and the arrival angle of his signal to my antenna.. JUST STOP, and enjoy your hobby for a change, don't over think it. Or even worse, try to be technical to impress people on the reflector. We all know that there are a lot of guys on here that know a LOT about a LOT of things... But they don't need to try to impress nor answer EVERYONE with their knowledge EVERY time. Save it for when it really counts, not on how to read an S meter. Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:27:40 -0700 From: xda...@cis-broadband.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding yourself if you think differently. 73, Dave AB7E On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote: I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted. I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9. Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it too.. But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't know what
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
I don't know about your rigs, but My Icom 706, My Ten Tec Omni 1, Yaesu 767GX circa 1980 and my Yaesu FT-2000D all seem to match my K3's S meter reading all within one S unit. That's close enough for me This is a Hobby, not an exact science. At least if someone on the air gives me an S3 reading I know approximately how well I'm doing at his QTH given the idea I know HIS antenna set up, and Mine. That's good enough for me. From: w...@w8ji.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:52:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off reflector email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some time (1970's when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we were able to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST. There may be a standard some people believe in, but it is a paper standard that never took hold. Drake used 5 db per S unit as a goal, ICOM about the same. Collins was down around 3 dB per S unit as a target. Most receivers are around 1 dB or so per S unit down around S 1, and very few prior to digital processing were ever remotely linear over the S range. My FT1000MP MKV, sitting in front of me now, is 2 S units per 6 dB at S8 and the very same 6 db pad drops it from S5 to S0 (it has that scale point, even though there is no such thing). I've never measured the K3 for many reasons. S meters historically have been very poor, absolute signal level at a receiver is not an indication of field strength in volts-per-meter, volts-per-meter is not a constant indication of S/N ratio or even how loud a signal is, and so on. This whole thing is an exercise similar to arguing how to measure plate milliamps using #47 light bulb. How would Elecraft or anyone else measure the meaningless S units of an S3 signal when RF gain is set so the DSP only sees an S5 signal at the lowest signal sensitivity? Why work to know what isn't even important, and what is never useful? 73 Tom __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
