Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Fred Jensen]

NLK[?] at Jim Creek used to transmit on 24.8 KHz with a megawatt or a 
little more.  I don't know if it is still active.  The antenna is [was] 
a linear series of vertical elements down a valley, suspended by cables 
from the mountains on each side.  I believe there were ten total, fed in 
two groups of 5 from two transmission lines on the valley floor.  The 
suspension cables provided capacitive top loading, most of the radiation 
came from the vertical elements.  Similar to the antenna at SAQ.


Not much to listen to, it was [or still is] extreme QRSS.  Just a 
handful of characters, often only one or two.


The Omega system operated down in the 10-15 KHz range.  The NA station 
was in one of the Dakotas, but it's been decommissioned for several 
decades.  It wasn't much to listen to either.  WWVL was on 20 KHz for 
awhile, gone now, and not much to listen to when it was on.  I've 
"heard" WWVB on 60 KHz, pretty dull.


At frequencies below 20 KHz, you don't need tubes or transistors, just a 
generator with a lot of poles and high RPM.  Before LORAN-C on 100 KHz 
died, at least one of the stations was outfitted with an Accufix 
transmitter from Megapulse Corp.  This was a late 20th Century 
re-incarnation of the spark gap TX ... SCR's for the spark gap, huge 
capacitor banks, around a megawatt, and precise timing from a room full 
of electronics.  What goes around sometimes comes around.


73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

On 3/23/2017 3:45 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

The Jim Creek antenna facility is amazing - a series of over mile long wires
(cables) for the radiator strung from mountain to mountain across a valley
being fed with IIRC a megawatt of VLF RF.

73, Ron AC7AC



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[AJ8MH-Radio.Joe.Hutchens]

We had an ELF transmitter site here in the U.P. of Michigan.  Some 
pictures and notes about the old location are on my cabin site.


http://webpages.charter.net/aj8mh-radio/mich1.html

73,
Joe ( AJ8MH-Radio )

On 3/23/2017 6:55 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft wrote:

Doug,
Didn't the Navy use those frequencies to communicate with the submarines?  I 
remember something about 30 KHz and an Atlantic Island and something Washington 
with a setup???
Long in the tooth ham!
Mel K6KBE




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Walter Underwood]

But “audio” could be shorthand for “audio frequencies” instead of “radio 
frequencies”. 10 kHz is a reasonable frequency for AF. I’m quite sure that my 
audio amplifiers do not amplify with compression waves.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Mar 23, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> Right. What is being transmitted is an electromagnetic field, NOT a sound 
> field. Sound is AIR (or water) vibrating. Sound waves travel a bit faster 
> than a foot per msec. Sonar uses sound. The system Mike is talking about is 
> radio.
> 
> Radio is an electromagnetic field, which the simultaneous existence of an 
> electric field and a magnetic field at right angles to each other, and they 
> move through space at the speed of light. We can't hear radio waves, but we 
> could hear high frequency sound waves if the radio waves were somehow 
> detected (the trusty non-linear junction) and caused something to vibrate (or 
> even to arc).
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
> On Thu,3/23/2017 3:03 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:
>> I didn't understand the reference to audio either.
>> 
>> When I on the crew of a US ballistic missile submarine more than 40 years 
>> ago, our main communications receivers were AN/BRR-3 units whose full 
>> frequency range was only 14 to 30 kHz.  These received signals from coastal 
>> stations operating at megawatt output levels, but there was no one near such 
>> a station with his ear drums damaged by or even sensitive to the station's 
>> continuous output.:-)
>> 
>> Anyone can listen to such signals as they exist today.
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[wa9fvp]

In the 80's using my Icom R71 receiver and a Burhans VLF converter, I copied
the Omega Navigation system operating in the 10 to 12 KHz range.  
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_(navigation_system)



-
Jack WA9FVP

Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
--
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Harry Yingst via Elecraft]

Years ago I had an Selective voltmeter and an signal generator

I was surprised that the selective voltmeter could hear the signal generator 
across the room at what one would consider audio ranges.





  From: Doug Smith <d...@w7kf.com>
 To: Mel Farrer <farrerfo...@yahoo.com> 
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
 Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 7:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz
   
Yup.  Earlier in the thread Mike / KK5F pointed that out.  He was on the RX end 
of the circuit.

We monitored stations from Perth, somewhere in the UK, east coast of USA, west 
coast of USA, etc. etc.  Must have been six or eight stations on the air.  We 
also monitored WWVB but I think that was the highest frequency (60 kHz) we 
cared about.

It was all RTTY as I recall.  We didn’t bother trying to decode the stuff — it 
was encrypted and we didn’t care about the content.  We only cared about signal 
strength.  Fun times; long time ago..

-Doug, W7KF


> On Mar 23, 2017, at 4:55 PM, Mel Farrer <farrerfo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Doug,
> 
> Didn't the Navy use those frequencies to communicate with the submarines?  I 
> remember something about 30 KHz and an Atlantic Island and something 
> Washington with a setup???
> 
> Long in the tooth ham!
> 
> Mel K6KBE

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Doug Smith]

Yup.  Earlier in the thread Mike / KK5F pointed that out.  He was on the RX end 
of the circuit.

We monitored stations from Perth, somewhere in the UK, east coast of USA, west 
coast of USA, etc. etc.  Must have been six or eight stations on the air.  We 
also monitored WWVB but I think that was the highest frequency (60 kHz) we 
cared about.

It was all RTTY as I recall.  We didn’t bother trying to decode the stuff — it 
was encrypted and we didn’t care about the content.  We only cared about signal 
strength.  Fun times; long time ago..

-Doug, W7KF


> On Mar 23, 2017, at 4:55 PM, Mel Farrer  wrote:
> 
> Doug,
> 
> Didn't the Navy use those frequencies to communicate with the submarines?  I 
> remember something about 30 KHz and an Atlantic Island and something 
> Washington with a setup???
> 
> Long in the tooth ham!
> 
> Mel K6KBE

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Jim Brown]

Right. What is being transmitted is an electromagnetic field, NOT a 
sound field. Sound is AIR (or water) vibrating. Sound waves travel a bit 
faster than a foot per msec. Sonar uses sound. The system Mike is 
talking about is radio.


Radio is an electromagnetic field, which the simultaneous existence of 
an electric field and a magnetic field at right angles to each other, 
and they move through space at the speed of light. We can't hear radio 
waves, but we could hear high frequency sound waves if the radio waves 
were somehow detected (the trusty non-linear junction) and caused 
something to vibrate (or even to arc).


73, Jim K9YC

On Thu,3/23/2017 3:03 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:

I didn't understand the reference to audio either.

When I on the crew of a US ballistic missile submarine more than 40 years ago, 
our main communications receivers were AN/BRR-3 units whose full frequency 
range was only 14 to 30 kHz.  These received signals from coastal stations 
operating at megawatt output levels, but there was no one near such a station 
with his ear drums damaged by or even sensitive to the station's continuous 
output.:-)

Anyone can listen to such signals as they exist today.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

Doug,
Didn't the Navy use those frequencies to communicate with the submarines?  I 
remember something about 30 KHz and an Atlantic Island and something Washington 
with a setup???
Long in the tooth ham!
Mel K6KBE

  From: Doug Smith <d...@w7kf.com>
 To: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
 Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 3:45 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz
   
Way back in ancient times I worked at a research lab where we had a LOT of 
receivers tuned to all the signals we could find below 60 kHz.  I think the 
lowest was 13.x.  There was an 18.x and 24.x etc. etc.  We were only interested 
in signal strengths and plotted each signal on strip chart recorders, 24x7.  It 
was very interesting working at those frequencies.  (This was all part of a 
solar observatory project.)

So, I guess *that* would qualify as a reason to listen to this stuff..

73,
Doug, W7KF
http://www.w7kf.com <http://www.w7kf.com/>



> On Mar 23, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Mike Morrow <k...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
>  I'm not sure what the point would be...everything down there is very deeply 
>encrypted.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Doug Smith]

Yeah, I think they’re on 18.6 kHz — unless, of course, they managed to buy a 
VFO in the last 40 years!

Doug, W7KF


> On Mar 23, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire  wrote:
> 
> The Jim Creek antenna facility is amazing - a series of over mile long wires
> (cables) for the radiator strung from mountain to mountain across a valley
> being fed with IIRC a megawatt of VLF RF. 
> 
> 73, Ron AC7AC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

The Jim Creek antenna facility is amazing - a series of over mile long wires
(cables) for the radiator strung from mountain to mountain across a valley
being fed with IIRC a megawatt of VLF RF. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mike
Morrow
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 3:04 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

I didn't understand the reference to audio either.

When I on the crew of a US ballistic missile submarine more than 40 years
ago, our main communications receivers were AN/BRR-3 units whose full
frequency range was only 14 to 30 kHz.  These received signals from coastal
stations operating at megawatt output levels, but there was no one near such
a station with his ear drums damaged by or even sensitive to the station's
continuous output.  :-)

Anyone can listen to such signals as they exist today.  I'm not sure what
the point would be...everything down there is very deeply encrypted.

Mike / KK5F

--

>> Wait a second, there's a big difference between a sound pressure wave 
>> and an electromagnetic wave at 10-kHz...

---

> Receivers THAT I AM AWARE OF begin coverage at 15 khz.  Used to listen 
> to
> 16 khz from GBR in England on an RAL when lived in Florida.
>
> After all, 10 khz -is- audio.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Doug Smith]

Way back in ancient times I worked at a research lab where we had a LOT of 
receivers tuned to all the signals we could find below 60 kHz.  I think the 
lowest was 13.x.  There was an 18.x and 24.x etc. etc.  We were only interested 
in signal strengths and plotted each signal on strip chart recorders, 24x7.  It 
was very interesting working at those frequencies.  (This was all part of a 
solar observatory project.)

So, I guess *that* would qualify as a reason to listen to this stuff..

73,
Doug, W7KF
http://www.w7kf.com 



> On Mar 23, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Mike Morrow  wrote:
> 
>  I'm not sure what the point would be...everything down there is very deeply 
> encrypted.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Mike Morrow]

I didn't understand the reference to audio either.

When I on the crew of a US ballistic missile submarine more than 40 years ago, 
our main communications receivers were AN/BRR-3 units whose full frequency 
range was only 14 to 30 kHz.  These received signals from coastal stations 
operating at megawatt output levels, but there was no one near such a station 
with his ear drums damaged by or even sensitive to the station's continuous 
output.  :-)

Anyone can listen to such signals as they exist today.  I'm not sure what the 
point would be...everything down there is very deeply encrypted.

Mike / KK5F

--

>> Wait a second, there's a big difference between a sound pressure wave
>> and an electromagnetic wave at 10-kHz...

---

> Receivers THAT I AM AWARE OF begin coverage at 15 khz.  Used to listen to
> 16 khz from GBR in England on an RAL when lived in Florida.
>
> After all, 10 khz -is- audio.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Absolutely. You would need an antenna connected to an audio transducer (speaker 
or 'phones) to hear it. (Perhaps one would call it a non-conversion receiver.) 

An audio amplifier helps, but you have to deal with the 120 Hz buzz caused by 
the 60 Hz power line fields all around. A high pass filter with a cutoff above 
150 Hz helps a great deal. 

Listening to the variety of squeaks, chirps and other noises produced by 
electronic discharges all over the planet is a fascinating hobby in itself. 
They are commonly referred to as 'Sferics, short for atmospherics. 

73 Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of thelastdb
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 6:57 AM
To: Ken G Kopp; wa9fvp; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

Wait a second, there's a big difference between a sound pressure wave and an 
electromagnetic wave at 10-kHz...

Myron WVØHPrinted on Recycled Data  Original message From: Ken 
G Kopp <kengk...@gmail.com> Date: 3/23/2017  7:41 AM  (GMT-07:00) To: wa9fvp 
<rep...@willcoele.com>, elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S 
ELF 10KHz Receivers THAT I AM AWARE OF begin coverage at 15 khz.  Used to 
listen to
16 khz from GBR in England on an RAL when lived in Florida.

After all, 10 khz -is- audio.

73

K0PP

On Mar 22, 2017 22:22, "wa9fvp" <rep...@willcoele.com> wrote:

> Is it possible, maybe in the next firmware rev, to extend the bottom 
> end of the K3S down to 10KHz?
>
>
>
> -
> Jack WA9FVP
>
> Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.
> nabble.com/K3S-and-VLF-tp7628247p7628423.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> __
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> kengk...@gmail.com
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[thelastdb]

Wait a second, there's a big difference between a sound pressure wave and an 
electromagnetic wave at 10-kHz...

Myron WVØHPrinted on Recycled Data  Original message From: Ken 
G Kopp <kengk...@gmail.com> Date: 3/23/2017  7:41 AM  (GMT-07:00) To: wa9fvp 
<rep...@willcoele.com>, elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S 
ELF 10KHz 
Receivers THAT I AM AWARE OF begin coverage at 15 khz.  Used to listen to
16 khz from GBR in England on an RAL when lived in Florida.

After all, 10 khz -is- audio.

73

K0PP

On Mar 22, 2017 22:22, "wa9fvp" <rep...@willcoele.com> wrote:

> Is it possible, maybe in the next firmware rev, to extend the bottom end of
> the K3S down to 10KHz?
>
>
>
> -
> Jack WA9FVP
>
> Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.
> nabble.com/K3S-and-VLF-tp7628247p7628423.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Ken G Kopp]

Receivers THAT I AM AWARE OF begin coverage at 15 khz.  Used to listen to
16 khz from GBR in England on an RAL when lived in Florida.

After all, 10 khz -is- audio.

73

K0PP

On Mar 22, 2017 22:22, "wa9fvp"  wrote:

> Is it possible, maybe in the next firmware rev, to extend the bottom end of
> the K3S down to 10KHz?
>
>
>
> -
> Jack WA9FVP
>
> Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.
> nabble.com/K3S-and-VLF-tp7628247p7628423.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[Harry Yingst via Elecraft]

I would love to see this but last I asked I was told No





  From: wa9fvp <rep...@willcoele.com>
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:25 AM
 Subject: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz
   
Is it possible, maybe in the next firmware rev, to extend the bottom end of
the K3S down to 10KHz?



-
Jack WA9FVP

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[C G]

+1

Christian F1GWR

Le 23 mars 2017 à 05:21, wa9fvp  a écrit :

> Is it possible, maybe in the next firmware rev, to extend the bottom end of
> the K3S down to 10KHz?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Jack WA9FVP
> 
> Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-and-VLF-tp7628247p7628423.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> __
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[Elecraft] K3S ELF 10KHz

[wa9fvp]

Is it possible, maybe in the next firmware rev, to extend the bottom end of
the K3S down to 10KHz?



-
Jack WA9FVP

Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-and-VLF-tp7628247p7628423.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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