Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi
Hi Conrad: I'm looking forward to your tests. I have things set up per Don's and Bob's suggestions at the moment. Windows level: -14.7db fldigi level: -15.7 db K3s level: 31 Again, I have not way to test quantitatively but the couple of comments seems to indicate things are fine. I have this old KK7UQ IMD Meter which I used to trust but it seems it's not working well or I need a new battery in it. It's reading around -19 db IMD while my old rigs were at -30 easy. I'm not trusting the meter at the moment. Kev On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:50 AM Conrad PA5Y wrote: > Don, it depends on the hardware. I would be very surprised if the Audio > codec used in the K3S can reach full scale with the windows mixer at max. I > expect that it is limited to -1dB FS. Also I believe that there are further > limits imposed i WSJT-X. Therefore there should be no reason for clipping > to occur in the CODEC. I expect that there is sufficient range in the mic > gain (or whatever it is called) on the K3S. This gives the input signal the > maximum SNR which is the socially responsible thing to do. > > Until I have checked the behaviour of the windows mixer with the CODEC I > will not be using it. As I have said previously I don't trust the windows > mixer not to degrade the audio due This may well have been resolved but > historically was of concern. > > I think that I will decide what to do when I have made some proper > measurements. It's not that I don't believe you, I just like to check > things for myself. > > 73 > > Conrad PA5Y > > > ____ > From: Don Wilhelm > Sent: 17 June 2019 17:31 > To: Conrad PA5Y; elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi > > Conrad, > > Do check and adjust the Windows soundcard controls to mid-range. When > set to extremes, it can cause clipping and distortion. > > With the K3S, the internal soundcard will identify as USB AUDIO CODEC. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > On 6/17/2019 11:21 AM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: > > Don of course it is not a power control, that is obvious to me. > > > > I am very fortunate to have a lot of RF and Audio test equipment > > available both at home and at work so I will measure what works best > > and try to understand why. I will be happy to share my findings. I > > will of course read your article. I am loathe to use the Windows audio > > mixer, I would rather use an external passive attenuator. Maybe the > > Windows mixer has improved, I need to check that with an audio > > analyser. It used to be awful so I built an external passive > > attenuator some years ago. > > > > I will be interested to see what happens to the K3S TX composite noise > > when the power control is used. There is a certain very popular radio > > where the AM noise comes up by 20 dB when the power is reduced from > > 100W to 30W. I would be really pleased if the K3S power control works > > properly! > > > > I bought the K3S purely for its TX PN performance. > > > > 73 > > > > Conrad PA5Y > > > > *From:* Don Wilhelm > > *Sent:* 17 June 2019 16:03:02 > > *To:* Conrad PA5Y; elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi > > Conrad and all, > > > > The POWER control in WSJT-X is a misnomer. It is actually an audio > > level control. Do NOT use it to control the power with an Elecraft > > transceiver - set the audio correctly and use the power knob to control > > the power. > > > > While other amateur transceivers can be made to control the power by > > varying the audio level, that can be disastrous for Elecraft transceiver > > Power Control. Read the relevant article on my website www.w3fpr.com< > http://www.w3fpr.com> > > <http://www.w3fpr.com> > > for a full explanation. > > > > Set the WSJT-X POWER control for 30% to 50% and do the same for the > > soundcard control in Windows Mixer, then set the LINE IN gain in the > > K3/S to somewhere near mid-range. By manipulation of those 3 audio > > level controls, you should be able to achieve the 'magic' indication of > > 4 bars solid on the ALC meter with the 5th bar flashing - that is the > > "NO ALC" point for the K3/S, KX3, and KX2 transeivers. The lower 4 bars > > of the "ALC" meter are there as an aid for setting the audio levels. > > Set the desired power output with the POWER knob - do NOT vary the audio > > level. > > > > 73, > > Don W3
Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi
Don, it depends on the hardware. I would be very surprised if the Audio codec used in the K3S can reach full scale with the windows mixer at max. I expect that it is limited to -1dB FS. Also I believe that there are further limits imposed i WSJT-X. Therefore there should be no reason for clipping to occur in the CODEC. I expect that there is sufficient range in the mic gain (or whatever it is called) on the K3S. This gives the input signal the maximum SNR which is the socially responsible thing to do. Until I have checked the behaviour of the windows mixer with the CODEC I will not be using it. As I have said previously I don't trust the windows mixer not to degrade the audio due This may well have been resolved but historically was of concern. I think that I will decide what to do when I have made some proper measurements. It's not that I don't believe you, I just like to check things for myself. 73 Conrad PA5Y From: Don Wilhelm Sent: 17 June 2019 17:31 To: Conrad PA5Y; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi Conrad, Do check and adjust the Windows soundcard controls to mid-range. When set to extremes, it can cause clipping and distortion. With the K3S, the internal soundcard will identify as USB AUDIO CODEC. 73, Don W3FPR On 6/17/2019 11:21 AM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: > Don of course it is not a power control, that is obvious to me. > > I am very fortunate to have a lot of RF and Audio test equipment > available both at home and at work so I will measure what works best > and try to understand why. I will be happy to share my findings. I > will of course read your article. I am loathe to use the Windows audio > mixer, I would rather use an external passive attenuator. Maybe the > Windows mixer has improved, I need to check that with an audio > analyser. It used to be awful so I built an external passive > attenuator some years ago. > > I will be interested to see what happens to the K3S TX composite noise > when the power control is used. There is a certain very popular radio > where the AM noise comes up by 20 dB when the power is reduced from > 100W to 30W. I would be really pleased if the K3S power control works > properly! > > I bought the K3S purely for its TX PN performance. > > 73 > > Conrad PA5Y > > *From:* Don Wilhelm > *Sent:* 17 June 2019 16:03:02 > *To:* Conrad PA5Y; elecraft@mailman.qth.net > *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi > Conrad and all, > > The POWER control in WSJT-X is a misnomer. It is actually an audio > level control. Do NOT use it to control the power with an Elecraft > transceiver - set the audio correctly and use the power knob to control > the power. > > While other amateur transceivers can be made to control the power by > varying the audio level, that can be disastrous for Elecraft transceiver > Power Control. Read the relevant article on my website > www.w3fpr.com<http://www.w3fpr.com> > <http://www.w3fpr.com> > for a full explanation. > > Set the WSJT-X POWER control for 30% to 50% and do the same for the > soundcard control in Windows Mixer, then set the LINE IN gain in the > K3/S to somewhere near mid-range. By manipulation of those 3 audio > level controls, you should be able to achieve the 'magic' indication of > 4 bars solid on the ALC meter with the 5th bar flashing - that is the > "NO ALC" point for the K3/S, KX3, and KX2 transeivers. The lower 4 bars > of the "ALC" meter are there as an aid for setting the audio levels. > Set the desired power output with the POWER knob - do NOT vary the audio > level. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > On 6/17/2019 9:38 AM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: > > > > Historically there were all kinds of low level artefacts produced by > Windows audio algorithms, including the volume control. This was > caused by insufficient precision leading to truncation artefacts. I > have not tested it for a while and so it may no longer be the case. > The result when I did test it was spectral smearing and some AM on > what should be a constant envelope signal. I trust the power control > in WSJT-X far more than that from the Windows mixer. These effects > only really matter during weak signal conditions when your TX signal > is on or near the noise floor. at the receiving station However they > do make your signal wider. > > > > Also be careful how you vary power, reducing audio carelessly will > invariably decrease the signal to noise on your TX signal which will > also affect a stations ability to receive you. > > > > My K3S arrives this week and I will make some
Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi
Conrad, Do check and adjust the Windows soundcard controls to mid-range. When set to extremes, it can cause clipping and distortion. With the K3S, the internal soundcard will identify as USB AUDIO CODEC. 73, Don W3FPR On 6/17/2019 11:21 AM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: Don of course it is not a power control, that is obvious to me. I am very fortunate to have a lot of RF and Audio test equipment available both at home and at work so I will measure what works best and try to understand why. I will be happy to share my findings. I will of course read your article. I am loathe to use the Windows audio mixer, I would rather use an external passive attenuator. Maybe the Windows mixer has improved, I need to check that with an audio analyser. It used to be awful so I built an external passive attenuator some years ago. I will be interested to see what happens to the K3S TX composite noise when the power control is used. There is a certain very popular radio where the AM noise comes up by 20 dB when the power is reduced from 100W to 30W. I would be really pleased if the K3S power control works properly! I bought the K3S purely for its TX PN performance. 73 Conrad PA5Y *From:* Don Wilhelm *Sent:* 17 June 2019 16:03:02 *To:* Conrad PA5Y; elecraft@mailman.qth.net *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi Conrad and all, The POWER control in WSJT-X is a misnomer. It is actually an audio level control. Do NOT use it to control the power with an Elecraft transceiver - set the audio correctly and use the power knob to control the power. While other amateur transceivers can be made to control the power by varying the audio level, that can be disastrous for Elecraft transceiver Power Control. Read the relevant article on my website www.w3fpr.com <http://www.w3fpr.com> for a full explanation. Set the WSJT-X POWER control for 30% to 50% and do the same for the soundcard control in Windows Mixer, then set the LINE IN gain in the K3/S to somewhere near mid-range. By manipulation of those 3 audio level controls, you should be able to achieve the 'magic' indication of 4 bars solid on the ALC meter with the 5th bar flashing - that is the "NO ALC" point for the K3/S, KX3, and KX2 transeivers. The lower 4 bars of the "ALC" meter are there as an aid for setting the audio levels. Set the desired power output with the POWER knob - do NOT vary the audio level. 73, Don W3FPR On 6/17/2019 9:38 AM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: > > Historically there were all kinds of low level artefacts produced by Windows audio algorithms, including the volume control. This was caused by insufficient precision leading to truncation artefacts. I have not tested it for a while and so it may no longer be the case. The result when I did test it was spectral smearing and some AM on what should be a constant envelope signal. I trust the power control in WSJT-X far more than that from the Windows mixer. These effects only really matter during weak signal conditions when your TX signal is on or near the noise floor. at the receiving station However they do make your signal wider. > > Also be careful how you vary power, reducing audio carelessly will invariably decrease the signal to noise on your TX signal which will also affect a stations ability to receive you. > > My K3S arrives this week and I will make some tests to see exactly what happens with TX composite noise when power is reduced with the power control and by reducing audio drive from the PC. Unless someone else has measured this already? > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi
Don of course it is not a power control, that is obvious to me. I am very fortunate to have a lot of RF and Audio test equipment available both at home and at work so I will measure what works best and try to understand why. I will be happy to share my findings. I will of course read your article. I am loathe to use the Windows audio mixer, I would rather use an external passive attenuator. Maybe the Windows mixer has improved, I need to check that with an audio analyser. It used to be awful so I built an external passive attenuator some years ago. I will be interested to see what happens to the K3S TX composite noise when the power control is used. There is a certain very popular radio where the AM noise comes up by 20 dB when the power is reduced from 100W to 30W. I would be really pleased if the K3S power control works properly! I bought the K3S purely for its TX PN performance. 73 Conrad PA5Y From: Don Wilhelm Sent: 17 June 2019 16:03:02 To: Conrad PA5Y; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi Conrad and all, The POWER control in WSJT-X is a misnomer. It is actually an audio level control. Do NOT use it to control the power with an Elecraft transceiver - set the audio correctly and use the power knob to control the power. While other amateur transceivers can be made to control the power by varying the audio level, that can be disastrous for Elecraft transceiver Power Control. Read the relevant article on my website www.w3fpr.com<http://www.w3fpr.com> for a full explanation. Set the WSJT-X POWER control for 30% to 50% and do the same for the soundcard control in Windows Mixer, then set the LINE IN gain in the K3/S to somewhere near mid-range. By manipulation of those 3 audio level controls, you should be able to achieve the 'magic' indication of 4 bars solid on the ALC meter with the 5th bar flashing - that is the "NO ALC" point for the K3/S, KX3, and KX2 transeivers. The lower 4 bars of the "ALC" meter are there as an aid for setting the audio levels. Set the desired power output with the POWER knob - do NOT vary the audio level. 73, Don W3FPR On 6/17/2019 9:38 AM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: > > Historically there were all kinds of low level artefacts produced by Windows > audio algorithms, including the volume control. This was caused by > insufficient precision leading to truncation artefacts. I have not tested it > for a while and so it may no longer be the case. The result when I did test > it was spectral smearing and some AM on what should be a constant envelope > signal. I trust the power control in WSJT-X far more than that from the > Windows mixer. These effects only really matter during weak signal conditions > when your TX signal is on or near the noise floor. at the receiving station > However they do make your signal wider. > > Also be careful how you vary power, reducing audio carelessly will invariably > decrease the signal to noise on your TX signal which will also affect a > stations ability to receive you. > > My K3S arrives this week and I will make some tests to see exactly what > happens with TX composite noise when power is reduced with the power control > and by reducing audio drive from the PC. Unless someone else has measured > this already? > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi
Conrad and all, The POWER control in WSJT-X is a misnomer. It is actually an audio level control. Do NOT use it to control the power with an Elecraft transceiver - set the audio correctly and use the power knob to control the power. While other amateur transceivers can be made to control the power by varying the audio level, that can be disastrous for Elecraft transceiver Power Control. Read the relevant article on my website www.w3fpr.com for a full explanation. Set the WSJT-X POWER control for 30% to 50% and do the same for the soundcard control in Windows Mixer, then set the LINE IN gain in the K3/S to somewhere near mid-range. By manipulation of those 3 audio level controls, you should be able to achieve the 'magic' indication of 4 bars solid on the ALC meter with the 5th bar flashing - that is the "NO ALC" point for the K3/S, KX3, and KX2 transeivers. The lower 4 bars of the "ALC" meter are there as an aid for setting the audio levels. Set the desired power output with the POWER knob - do NOT vary the audio level. 73, Don W3FPR On 6/17/2019 9:38 AM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: Historically there were all kinds of low level artefacts produced by Windows audio algorithms, including the volume control. This was caused by insufficient precision leading to truncation artefacts. I have not tested it for a while and so it may no longer be the case. The result when I did test it was spectral smearing and some AM on what should be a constant envelope signal. I trust the power control in WSJT-X far more than that from the Windows mixer. These effects only really matter during weak signal conditions when your TX signal is on or near the noise floor. at the receiving station However they do make your signal wider. Also be careful how you vary power, reducing audio carelessly will invariably decrease the signal to noise on your TX signal which will also affect a stations ability to receive you. My K3S arrives this week and I will make some tests to see exactly what happens with TX composite noise when power is reduced with the power control and by reducing audio drive from the PC. Unless someone else has measured this already? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi
Historically there were all kinds of low level artefacts produced by Windows
audio algorithms, including the volume control. This was caused by insufficient
precision leading to truncation artefacts. I have not tested it for a while and
so it may no longer be the case. The result when I did test it was spectral
smearing and some AM on what should be a constant envelope signal. I trust the
power control in WSJT-X far more than that from the Windows mixer. These
effects only really matter during weak signal conditions when your TX signal is
on or near the noise floor. at the receiving station However they do make your
signal wider.
Also be careful how you vary power, reducing audio carelessly will invariably
decrease the signal to noise on your TX signal which will also affect a
stations ability to receive you.
My K3S arrives this week and I will make some tests to see exactly what happens
with TX composite noise when power is reduced with the power control and by
reducing audio drive from the PC. Unless someone else has measured this already?
73
Conrad PA5Y
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net on
behalf of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: 17 June 2019 15:13
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi
Kev:
First the ALC indication should be, no must be, 4 bars solid and the
5th bar flickering.To monitor your signal, use the MON function of
the K3S. It should sound VERY clean. If there is buzz, growl, humm or
anything besides pure tone, there are issues to be resolved. Check all
PL-259 connectors in the signal path to assure they are very tight. I
use a pair of 4" Channel lock pliers to snug mine.
As to levels -18 dB is 30% for the SPKR level from the computer. That is
what I use. Then the level adjustment {lower right corner} in FLDIGI is
running -10 dB and the Line Gain on my K3S is running at 30. Then
set the PWR value on the radio to the value of your choice, I normally
run 50 watts without the KPA500. With the KPA500 I run 300 to 350
watts. All of these numbers work for WSJT-X / FT-8 as well.
As to things "looking good", I rely largely on the software and IMD
reports.I also have a 2nd receiver and computer where I can monitor
my own signal if need be.
Seems you just need to tweak levels a bit to get things in a more normal
and balanced level condition.
73
Bob, K4TAX
On 6/17/2019 12:50 AM, Kevin, N4TT wrote:
> My first PSK-31 contact seemed to go very well. I simply adjusted the MIC
> level (Line) until there was 5-7 ALC bars. The adjustment was quite smooth.
>
> Then I went off and did other things and I'm concerned I changed something.
> Now I have to turn the level way way down on the USB Audio CODEC (-16.4
> dB). Then I add another -3 dB using fldigi. Finally, I adjust the Mic to
> Line = 17. The Mic adjustment isn't smooth.
>
> The major change was the addition of the KAT500 and KPA500 (stby) and I'm
> wondering if either I messed up a setting or maybe created an opportunity
> for some RF feedback that's affecting the audio.
>
> At this point, I don't know how to confirm the signal is clean (especially
> PSK-31). I've only had one report of a possible problem and a number of
> reports of "things look good" so I'm calling that a wash.
>
> I found nothing in the instructions that told me to drop the level of the
> USB Audio CODEC and -16.4 dB seems like a big drop. The CODEC is set for 16
> bit, 48000 Hz.
>
> Am I worrying about nothing? Is your setup with fldigi and DATA A using the
> K3s's internal sound card similar?
>
> Thanks for your patience.
>
> 73,
> Kev N4TT
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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Re: [Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi
Kev:
First the ALC indication should be, no must be, 4 bars solid and the
5th bar flickering. To monitor your signal, use the MON function of
the K3S. It should sound VERY clean. If there is buzz, growl, humm or
anything besides pure tone, there are issues to be resolved. Check all
PL-259 connectors in the signal path to assure they are very tight. I
use a pair of 4" Channel lock pliers to snug mine.
As to levels -18 dB is 30% for the SPKR level from the computer. That is
what I use. Then the level adjustment {lower right corner} in FLDIGI is
running -10 dB and the Line Gain on my K3S is running at 30. Then
set the PWR value on the radio to the value of your choice, I normally
run 50 watts without the KPA500. With the KPA500 I run 300 to 350
watts. All of these numbers work for WSJT-X / FT-8 as well.
As to things "looking good", I rely largely on the software and IMD
reports. I also have a 2nd receiver and computer where I can monitor
my own signal if need be.
Seems you just need to tweak levels a bit to get things in a more normal
and balanced level condition.
73
Bob, K4TAX
On 6/17/2019 12:50 AM, Kevin, N4TT wrote:
My first PSK-31 contact seemed to go very well. I simply adjusted the MIC
level (Line) until there was 5-7 ALC bars. The adjustment was quite smooth.
Then I went off and did other things and I'm concerned I changed something.
Now I have to turn the level way way down on the USB Audio CODEC (-16.4
dB). Then I add another -3 dB using fldigi. Finally, I adjust the Mic to
Line = 17. The Mic adjustment isn't smooth.
The major change was the addition of the KAT500 and KPA500 (stby) and I'm
wondering if either I messed up a setting or maybe created an opportunity
for some RF feedback that's affecting the audio.
At this point, I don't know how to confirm the signal is clean (especially
PSK-31). I've only had one report of a possible problem and a number of
reports of "things look good" so I'm calling that a wash.
I found nothing in the instructions that told me to drop the level of the
USB Audio CODEC and -16.4 dB seems like a big drop. The CODEC is set for 16
bit, 48000 Hz.
Am I worrying about nothing? Is your setup with fldigi and DATA A using the
K3s's internal sound card similar?
Thanks for your patience.
73,
Kev N4TT
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[Elecraft] Next Question: DATA A with K3s and Fldigi
My first PSK-31 contact seemed to go very well. I simply adjusted the MIC level (Line) until there was 5-7 ALC bars. The adjustment was quite smooth. Then I went off and did other things and I'm concerned I changed something. Now I have to turn the level way way down on the USB Audio CODEC (-16.4 dB). Then I add another -3 dB using fldigi. Finally, I adjust the Mic to Line = 17. The Mic adjustment isn't smooth. The major change was the addition of the KAT500 and KPA500 (stby) and I'm wondering if either I messed up a setting or maybe created an opportunity for some RF feedback that's affecting the audio. At this point, I don't know how to confirm the signal is clean (especially PSK-31). I've only had one report of a possible problem and a number of reports of "things look good" so I'm calling that a wash. I found nothing in the instructions that told me to drop the level of the USB Audio CODEC and -16.4 dB seems like a big drop. The CODEC is set for 16 bit, 48000 Hz. Am I worrying about nothing? Is your setup with fldigi and DATA A using the K3s's internal sound card similar? Thanks for your patience. 73, Kev N4TT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
