Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-29 Thread N2EY
In a message dated 8/21/07 9:58:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:


 There was an article a while ago in Circuit Cellar 
 magazine where the author (I think it was Steve Ciarcia himself) described 
 the originas of his high electric bills as surprising...all those clock 
 radios, microwave, dishwasher, TVs etc, etc. despite being 'off' still 
 collectively drew a lot of current that addded up.  I have a friend who 
 uses power strips to turn off *everything*.  He says it's the only 
 solution these days.
 

I call shenanigans. Or at least a need for better math.

Yes, there are some devices today that continue to consume small amounts of 
power even when visibly turned off. This is done for three reasons:

1) Keep the settings stored in volatile memory
2) Keep a clock or other indicator working
3) Keep the remote-control receiver alive so that you can turn the unit on 
with the clicker.

In addition, many small electronic devices are powered by wall warts rather 
than internal supplies so that they can be world-usable, smaller, and not have 
to meet the same safety requirements as something that plugs into the wall.

Typical of such things are:

Computers with ATX or similar power supplies
Monitors
Printers
VCRs/DVD players
TVs
Microwaves
Stoves

Let's say you have 20 of these items, and each one draws 5 watts while idle.
That's 100 watts of power demand, all the time. That's one-tenth kilowatt 
hour.

In a year of 365 days, there are 8760 hours. With a 100 watt load, that's 876 
kilowatt hours per *year* to run all the devices.

This number is on the high side because it assumes you never use any of the 
devices at all, but simply let them be on standby the entire time. So let's 
assume the devices are on standby 90% of the time, and in actual use 10%. Say 
800 
kilowatt hours of standby.

800 kWh is a considerable amount of juice - but how much does it really cost 
you? Here in EPA, where electricity prices are pretty high, I pay about 13 
cents per kWh, so the annual cost is $104. That's $8.67 per month for that 
theoretical 100 watt load. Except I don't have so many things plugged in 
drawing 
standby power, so I'd guess it to be about $6 per month. Twenty cents per day.

In other parts of the country, electricity is far cheaper. At 5 cents per 
kWh, you're talking $40 per year or $3.33 per month. 11 cents a day

What does a kilowatt-hour cost *you*?

73 de Jim, N2EY 


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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-29 Thread Simon Brown (HB9DRV)
- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


What does a kilowatt-hour cost *you*?

73 de Jim, N2EY


About 25 cents (US). It's not just about saving money - energy production 
causes pollution, it's about saving our poor planet as well :-)


Simon HB9DRV (35% hydo, 65% nuclear) 


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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-29 Thread Gary D Krause
Yes, but you are basing this on your assumptions.  Your math may be correct 
but, you are setting up the conditions of the problem which may or may not be 
accurate.


The word collectively was used.  So, let's say your assumptions are correct. 
Multiply that by millions of households.  That seems to be quite a bit to me. 
I don't really enjoy just giving my money to the local utilities.  I'd rather 
spend $104 on ham radio toys. ;-)


Gary, N7HTS


On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:48:08 EDT
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 8/21/07 9:58:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:



There was an article a while ago in Circuit Cellar 
magazine where the author (I think it was Steve Ciarcia himself) described 
the originas of his high electric bills as surprising...all those clock 
radios, microwave, dishwasher, TVs etc, etc. despite being 'off' still 
collectively drew a lot of current that addded up.  I have a friend who 
uses power strips to turn off *everything*.  He says it's the only 
solution these days.




I call shenanigans. Or at least a need for better math.

Yes, there are some devices today that continue to consume small amounts of 
power even when visibly turned off. This is done for three reasons:


1) Keep the settings stored in volatile memory
2) Keep a clock or other indicator working
3) Keep the remote-control receiver alive so that you can turn the unit on 
with the clicker.


In addition, many small electronic devices are powered by wall warts rather 
than internal supplies so that they can be world-usable, smaller, and not 
have 
to meet the same safety requirements as something that plugs into the wall.


Typical of such things are:

Computers with ATX or similar power supplies
Monitors
Printers
VCRs/DVD players
TVs
Microwaves
Stoves

Let's say you have 20 of these items, and each one draws 5 watts while idle.
That's 100 watts of power demand, all the time. That's one-tenth kilowatt 
hour.


In a year of 365 days, there are 8760 hours. With a 100 watt load, that's 
876 
kilowatt hours per *year* to run all the devices.


This number is on the high side because it assumes you never use any of the 
devices at all, but simply let them be on standby the entire time. So let's 
assume the devices are on standby 90% of the time, and in actual use 10%. 
Say 800 
kilowatt hours of standby.


800 kWh is a considerable amount of juice - but how much does it really cost 
you? Here in EPA, where electricity prices are pretty high, I pay about 13 
cents per kWh, so the annual cost is $104. That's $8.67 per month for that 
theoretical 100 watt load. Except I don't have so many things plugged in 
drawing 
standby power, so I'd guess it to be about $6 per month. Twenty cents per 
day.


In other parts of the country, electricity is far cheaper. At 5 cents per 
kWh, you're talking $40 per year or $3.33 per month. 11 cents a day


What does a kilowatt-hour cost *you*?

73 de Jim, N2EY 



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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-29 Thread Julian G4ILO
Yep, that's about what it costs here in the UK as well.

I'm not convinced that climate change is being caused by people
leaving their TV on stand-by or their ham-shack power supply on, and
even if it is, switching it off is going to make no difference given
the increasing industrialization of India, China and other developing
countries. But fifty quid a year of my money is worth saving. What
would it cost for manufacturers to use non-volatile memory, and
include a battery in the VCR to keep the clock going?

That won't solve the problem of keeping the batteries in the K2 and
FT-817 charged up, though. I guess a solar panel would do that, but
it's an expensive option to save a small amount of electricity (just
like the home wind turbine I saw in a local DIY store last weekend -
$2,500 equivalent for something that will generate 1KW max, in a gale,
and more like 40W in a light breeze.)

When the greener option is cheaper, and taking a train costs less than
using the car, I'll start believing that this global warming thing
isn't just an excuse for businesses to make more money and governments
to increase taxes.

-- 
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com


On 8/29/07, Simon Brown (HB9DRV) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 About 25 cents (US). It's not just about saving money - energy production
 causes pollution, it's about saving our poor planet as well :-)
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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-29 Thread N2EY
In a message dated 8/29/07 11:40:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Yes, but you are basing this on your assumptions.  Your math may be 
 correct 
 but, you are setting up the conditions of the problem which may or may not 
 be 
 accurate.

I think my assumptions are pretty accurate. If anything, they err on the high 
side.

Here they are in a nutshell:

Typical power requirement of a device on standby: 5 W
Typical number of such devices in a household: 20
Typical duty cycle of such devices: 760 hours per year of use, 8000 hours 
standby.

The rest is calculation. 

How much does a kilowatt hour of electricity cost? 13 cents here in EPA. 25 
cents in HB9. 

How much do *you* pay?

 
 The word collectively was used.  

Not by me.

So, let's say your assumptions are correct. 
 
 Multiply that by millions of households.  That seems to be quite a bit to 
 me. 

Of course. But consider it as a percentage of your total use. 

 I don't really enjoy just giving my money to the local utilities.  I'd 
 rather 
 spend $104 on ham radio toys. ;-)
 

Me too. 

73 de Jim, N2EY


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RE: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-29 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV

 When the greener option is cheaper, and taking a train costs less than
 using the car, I'll start believing that this global warming thing
 isn't just an excuse for businesses to make more money and governments
 to increase taxes.

When CO2 levels in the atmosphere begin to approach the midpoint of 
the historical (geologic) average, I'll believe that human generated
CO2 is a threat to the planet.  

Is the climate changing? Yes.  Has the planetary climate changed many 
times and through great extremes before human civilization and 
industrialization?  Yes.  Is climate change the result of the increase 
in CO2 as the result of industrialization?  Not by a long shot!  Will 
reducing the output of population related CO2 effect climate change? 
Probably not since CO2 production due to human activity is but a 
tiny fraction of all global CO2 production.  

This alleged connection between human CO2 and Global Warming is 
nothing more than a transparent attempt by bureaucrats to further 
erode individual rights and impose central control. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 
  

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julian G4ILO
 Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 11:45 AM
 To: elecraft
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs
 
 
 Yep, that's about what it costs here in the UK as well.
 
 I'm not convinced that climate change is being caused by people
 leaving their TV on stand-by or their ham-shack power supply on, and
 even if it is, switching it off is going to make no difference given
 the increasing industrialization of India, China and other developing
 countries. But fifty quid a year of my money is worth saving. What
 would it cost for manufacturers to use non-volatile memory, and
 include a battery in the VCR to keep the clock going?
 
 That won't solve the problem of keeping the batteries in the K2 and
 FT-817 charged up, though. I guess a solar panel would do that, but
 it's an expensive option to save a small amount of electricity (just
 like the home wind turbine I saw in a local DIY store last weekend -
 $2,500 equivalent for something that will generate 1KW max, in a gale,
 and more like 40W in a light breeze.)
 
 When the greener option is cheaper, and taking a train costs less than
 using the car, I'll start believing that this global warming thing
 isn't just an excuse for businesses to make more money and governments
 to increase taxes.
 
 -- 
 Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
 G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
 Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com
 
 
 On 8/29/07, Simon Brown (HB9DRV) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  About 25 cents (US). It's not just about saving money - 
 energy production
  causes pollution, it's about saving our poor planet as well :-)
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RE: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-29 Thread Greg
A FREAKIN' MEN!

Greg

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:11 PM
To: 'Julian G4ILO'; 'elecraft'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs



 When the greener option is cheaper, and taking a train costs less than
 using the car, I'll start believing that this global warming thing
 isn't just an excuse for businesses to make more money and governments
 to increase taxes.

When CO2 levels in the atmosphere begin to approach the midpoint of 
the historical (geologic) average, I'll believe that human generated
CO2 is a threat to the planet.  

Is the climate changing? Yes.  Has the planetary climate changed many 
times and through great extremes before human civilization and 
industrialization?  Yes.  Is climate change the result of the increase 
in CO2 as the result of industrialization?  Not by a long shot!  Will 
reducing the output of population related CO2 effect climate change? 
Probably not since CO2 production due to human activity is but a 
tiny fraction of all global CO2 production.  

This alleged connection between human CO2 and Global Warming is 
nothing more than a transparent attempt by bureaucrats to further 
erode individual rights and impose central control. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 
  

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julian G4ILO
 Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 11:45 AM
 To: elecraft
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs
 
 
 Yep, that's about what it costs here in the UK as well.
 
 I'm not convinced that climate change is being caused by people
 leaving their TV on stand-by or their ham-shack power supply on, and
 even if it is, switching it off is going to make no difference given
 the increasing industrialization of India, China and other developing
 countries. But fifty quid a year of my money is worth saving. What
 would it cost for manufacturers to use non-volatile memory, and
 include a battery in the VCR to keep the clock going?
 
 That won't solve the problem of keeping the batteries in the K2 and
 FT-817 charged up, though. I guess a solar panel would do that, but
 it's an expensive option to save a small amount of electricity (just
 like the home wind turbine I saw in a local DIY store last weekend -
 $2,500 equivalent for something that will generate 1KW max, in a gale,
 and more like 40W in a light breeze.)
 
 When the greener option is cheaper, and taking a train costs less than
 using the car, I'll start believing that this global warming thing
 isn't just an excuse for businesses to make more money and governments
 to increase taxes.
 
 -- 
 Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
 G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
 Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com
 
 
 On 8/29/07, Simon Brown (HB9DRV) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  About 25 cents (US). It's not just about saving money - 
 energy production
  causes pollution, it's about saving our poor planet as well :-)
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 Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
 
 

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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread Julian G4ILO
On 8/20/07, Robert Tellefsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 1.  I understand the K3 has a much more sophisticated noise blanker
 than the K2.  Also that the DSP includes a blanking capability.
 I'd appreciate any impressions as to how well these work, alone
 or in combination.


Given the local QRN situation here I'm also dying to know if the K3
could be a miracle cure. Could it be capable of noise cancelling using
the second receiver?
-- 
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com
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RE: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread Brett gazdzinski
 
Yes, it wont be long now till the K3's ship!
I guess that is when we will get the next batch of info about it.



I have a noise like TV sweep osc right on 3.880 MHz,
and I don't think its local to my house.
Its there with the TV's, DSL router, vcr's unplugged
and the cable terminated..

Its ALWAYS there, can someone have their TV on ALL the time?

I need to build a KX1 and track it!

I used to have a bad street light outside the house, and now
the TV noise, always something

Brett
N2DTS
 

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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread JT Croteau
On 8/21/07, Brett gazdzinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Its ALWAYS there, can someone have their TV on ALL the time?

My dad does.  He's always had the mindset that it gets less wear if
you leave it on all the time.  However, he's had amazing luck with
TV's.. they run forever for him.  30 years from a TV with no repairs
is pretty impressive.

I leave my computers on all the time but I probably use them more
frequently than most people.

-- 
JT Croteau, N1ESE - Manchester, NH
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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread Lyle Johnson

...I bought a meter a while ago that measures the power
consumption of whatever is plugged into it. It's surprising what it
costs to run one computer for a year. Now, even the shack power supply
gets turned off instead of trickle charging the K2.


Be grateful you can turn it off! Most things in the USA, if they p;lug 
in, can't be turned off.  They go to standby meaning they are still 
consuming power.  Home theater components, PCs, monitors, most devices 
in the kitchen... so they get an energy star award if you can't turn 
them off, the star telling you how efficient they are!


73,

Lyle KK7P

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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread Ralph Tyrrell
Hi
  ...I bought a meter a while ago that measures the
 power
  consumption of whatever is plugged into it. It's
 surprising what it
  costs to run one computer for a year. Now, even
 the shack power supply
  gets turned off instead of trickle charging the
 K2.
 . . . . 

All my computer equipment is pluged into an outlet
strip which is turned off when the computer is not in
use. Another strip powers the K1 battery charger and
desk Lamp. 
 
Not in use, turned off.


73, Ty, W1TF, K1 #1423  K2 this fall, I hope.



   

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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread Will

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, Ralph Tyrrell wrote:


All my computer equipment is pluged into an outlet
strip which is turned off when the computer is not in
use. Another strip powers the K1 battery charger and
desk Lamp.


Oh you'd be surprised.  There was an article a while ago in Circuit Cellar 
magazine where the author (I think it was Steve Ciarcia himself) described 
the originas of his high electric bills as surprising...all those clock 
radios, microwave, dishwasher, TVs etc, etc. despite being 'off' still 
collectively drew a lot of current that addded up.  I have a friend who 
uses power strips to turn off *everything*.  He says it's the only 
solution these days.


Will
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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread K2ZR

Please ID the power consumption  meter you purchased.
Thanks, K2ZR

Lyle Johnson wrote:


...I bought a meter a while ago that measures the power
consumption of whatever is plugged into it. It's surprising what it
costs to run one computer for a year. Now, even the shack power supply
gets turned off instead of trickle charging the K2.



Be grateful you can turn it off! Most things in the USA, if they p;lug 
in, can't be turned off.  They go to standby meaning they are still 
consuming power.  Home theater components, PCs, monitors, most devices 
in the kitchen... so they get an energy star award if you can't turn 
them off, the star telling you how efficient they are!


73,

Lyle KK7P

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RE: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread Ron D'Eau Claire
The Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory did a study* of ten homes in
California and found that between 5% and 25% of the total electrical demand
was to supply equipment that was turned off with standby power. 

A fellow might buy a fully-loaded K3 with the savings...

Ron AC7AC

* http://eetd.lbl.gov/EA/Reports/45967.pdf.


-Original Message-
 ...I bought a meter a while ago that measures the power consumption of 
 whatever is plugged into it. It's surprising what it costs to run one 
 computer for a year. Now, even the shack power supply gets turned off 
 instead of trickle charging the K2.

Be grateful you can turn it off! Most things in the USA, if they p;lug 
in, can't be turned off.  They go to standby meaning they are still 
consuming power.  Home theater components, PCs, monitors, most devices 
in the kitchen... so they get an energy star award if you can't turn 
them off, the star telling you how efficient they are!

73,

Lyle KK7P

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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread Augie Hansen

K2ZR wrote:

Please ID the power consumption  meter you purchased.


I don't know which unit Lyle is using, but I bought a model P4400 KILL A 
WATT tester at Radio Shack. It works well. The only inconvenience is 
that the three-prong connector is on the back of the box (no cord or 
pigtail). It makes it difficult to use it on some multi-socket outlets 
without putting a short extension cord in the circuit.


Gus Hansen
KB0YH


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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread Augie Hansen
Correction to my previous post: It was Ralph, not Lyle, who reported 
buying a meter.


Gus Hansen
KB0YH

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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread Ken Kopp

Bret,

The 3880 signal -MIGHT- be a touch lamp.  In my past life as a 
power company communications tech I chased line noise and other 
intereference sources.  


Had a complaint ... from a ham ... about noise on 75M.  Took two
crews a bit over a hundred miles to his town, spent condiderable 
time chasing the noise. Found it in his parent's bedroom in a nearby 
house when we pulled the service connection to the house and it 
went away );-)


73! Ken Kopp, K0PP
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread Rick Dettinger

The Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory did a study* of ten homes in
 California and found that between 5% and 25% of the total electrical
demand
 was to supply equipment that was turned off with standby power.

 A fellow might buy a fully-loaded K3 with the savings...

 Ron AC7AC



And remember, if you have air conditioning, you will need to purchase more
electricty to pump this
energy out of your house.  You pay twice.
Rick Dettinger
K7MW


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Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-21 Thread Tree

Bob - N6WG writes:

 1.  I understand the K3 has a much more sophisticated noise blanker
 than the K2.  Also that the DSP includes a blanking capability.
 I'd appreciate any impressions as to how well these work, alone
 or in combination.

This is still WIP.  Stand-by.

 2.  On the DVK capability, do we get some kind of audio sidetone
 when transmitting to reassure the op he punched the right button?

You can monitor your transmitted audio.

 Also, is the DVK controllable from a logging program like TRLOG?

Not yet - but when I get my option, it will be quickly added.  Actually,
you can probably do it with TR today - using the SRS command.

Tree N6TR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

2007-08-20 Thread Robert Tellefsen
1.  I understand the K3 has a much more sophisticated noise blanker
than the K2.  Also that the DSP includes a blanking capability.
I'd appreciate any impressions as to how well these work, alone
or in combination.

2.  On the DVK capability, do we get some kind of audio sidetone
when transmitting to reassure the op he punched the right button?

 Also, is the DVK controllable from a logging program like
 TRLOG?

Thanks and 73
Bob N6WG

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