Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
Personally I'd like to see things go in the other direction, and have kits using tubes. It's nostalgia I suppose, but who says radios have to be state of the art?. When I was young I used to drool over Heathkit catalogs, but I could never afford to buy the kits in those days. But some of my earliest radios were tube-based, and there is something intrinsically satisfying about a big, solid radio made with vacuum tubes, that today's tiny microprocessor based solid state radios just can't hope to emulate. Plus, they would be easier to build for those of us whose eyes are less sharp and hands less steady... The only thing that stops me building the only avaliable tube-based radio kit, an HF linear, apart from the price, is the havoc that running that amount of power would cause with my indoor antennas. 73, -- Julian, G4ILO G4ILO's Shack: http://www.tech-pro.net/g4ilo JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shall we back to basic? One of the advantages of kits from Elecraft is 'without' SMD stuff for the 'normal' skill builders. I consider myself is a 'normal' skill builders though I can handle SMD. Without SMD, most of elecraft kits can be handled by simple and easily avaliable tools. [snip] ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re:[Elecraft] SMD-based kits
I recently built an AA-908 Antenna Analyst which is a SMD-based kit. I have been in electronics since age 14 and have built hundreds of kits of all types including a K2 (#1107) with 100 watt amp. DSP, KSB, NB, 160 meter and various mods. This was my first SMD kit and while I had no particular problems. Now at age 66, I had to wear 3.5 diopter reading glasses and use an 8 power loupe to inspect solder joints (with SMD joints is not an exact term). A kit such as the AA-908 seems about the maximum complexity that a moderately skilled ham could expect to build and get working. Something as complex as a K2 would be a real challenge and repairs and mods will be a snarl. I suggest that SMD kits of the future will be about like building your own computer today. You would mount the completed circuit boards, hook up the cables, put on the knobs and put the lid on the box. 73 Allen KA5N ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
Hi I remember a time when PC boards were just becoming popular and the cry was how are you going to work on that stuff The same with first transistors, and then IC's. As the technology changes the building and troubleshooting techniques will follow. It may look difficult now because we are not as familiar SMD parts as through hole. I really would not want to build something like a hand wired chassis with 10 or 12 tubes and no PC boards (although I have done it). Some day we all may look back at building a through hole kit with all the lead bending, flush cutting and flipping the board over to solder the part and wonder how we did it and say I would not want to do THAT any more. Don Brown KD5NDB ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
Don't knock tubes. My first kit was a Harmon Kardon stereo amplifier with lots of tubes and no PC baord. It was great fun. I also built Dynakits and Heathkits with tubes. There's nothing like the smell and glow of vacuum tubes to warm your heart. Now I build lots of gear with SMD parts, and I can say that almost all the good chips are SMD now. Increasingly, staying with thru-hole parts not only costs more, it limits performance. I have no problem with SOIC parts, but the more popular SSOP and TSSOP parts are almost impossible to deal with unless you use some trick like a toaster oven to install the parts prior to other assembly. I think Elecraft would do well to pre-install SMD parts whenever performance would be enhanced. I know it is an inventory problem in terms of having a bunch of pre-assembled partial boards sitting on the shelf, but it gives much more flexibility in terms of circuit design and performance, and probably doesn't cost any more when you take into account the cheaper SMD parts cost. Larry N8LP Don Brown wrote: Hi I remember a time when PC boards were just becoming popular and the cry was how are you going to work on that stuff The same with first transistors, and then IC's. As the technology changes the building and troubleshooting techniques will follow. It may look difficult now because we are not as familiar SMD parts as through hole. I really would not want to build something like a hand wired chassis with 10 or 12 tubes and no PC boards (although I have done it). Some day we all may look back at building a through hole kit with all the lead bending, flush cutting and flipping the board over to solder the part and wonder how we did it and say I would not want to do THAT any more. Don Brown KD5NDB ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
Toaster oven? My 19 year old son and I live alone. As a result there are a lot of strange melted substances draped over the heating coils in our toaster oven, but solder isn't one of them. Yet...are you serious or is toaster oven a slang word for some expensive SMD assembly equipment? Eric KE6US -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Phipps I have no problem with SOIC parts, but the more popular SSOP and TSSOP parts are almost impossible to deal with unless you use some trick like a toaster oven to install the parts prior to other assembly. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
Hi Not knocking tubes! In fact there are still some new audio gear around that have tubes. Some people think they sound better and musicians say they have a warmer sound (or is it just because the room is warmer). I also built several tube kits. I worked on many a tube stereo or TV in the mid 60's. I also worked as a lead tech for Tektronix for 5 or so years where I worked on many 500 series scopes with 30-40 tubes although my specialty was the 7000 series scopes. I was just saying I would rather not build any more hand wired tube type kits unless there is no other option (a high power transmitter for instance). Don Brown KD5NDB - Original Message - From: Larry Phipps [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Don Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits Don't knock tubes. My first kit was a Harmon Kardon stereo amplifier with lots of tubes and no PC baord. It was great fun. I also built Dynakits and Heathkits with tubes. There's nothing like the smell and glow of vacuum tubes to warm your heart. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
Here's one link explaining it, there are others... do a Google search for more. http://www.beloev.net/gbvio.html Larry N8LP EricJ wrote: Toaster oven? My 19 year old son and I live alone. As a result there are a lot of strange melted substances draped over the heating coils in our toaster oven, but solder isn't one of them. Yet...are you serious or is toaster oven a slang word for some expensive SMD assembly equipment? Eric KE6US -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Phipps I have no problem with SOIC parts, but the more popular SSOP and TSSOP parts are almost impossible to deal with unless you use some trick like a toaster oven to install the parts prior to other assembly. . ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
Gentlefolk, Surface Mount is not that difficult even for old geezers like me with less than perfect eyesight. NORCAL did an SM kit as an introduction to the topic and I made that and it worked pretty well. I am half way through building a 23cm transverter kit from Kuhn Electronics which is all Surface Mount.Whilst the itsy bitsy components take some getting use to, a magnifier, a toothpick (for holding components down), a set of tweezers and a soldering iron with a tiny bit are all thats required (use a scrap motherboard, remove some somponents and resolder them). And a clean work surface. As usual practice makes perfect...and it helps a lot if the pcb is not too dense... In some respects SM components are easier to work with than leaded ones. No need to drill the PCB...lots of new components which dont have leaded versions...as you colonials say,,,its not a problem, its a challenge...and in years to come i think that there may not be any leaded components produced...so we will have to adapt, as hams always have, to use new technologies... Just my 50p s worth... Steve - Original Message - From: EricJ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Don Brown' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector' elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 6:22 PM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits Toaster oven? My 19 year old son and I live alone. As a result there are a lot of strange melted substances draped over the heating coils in our toaster oven, but solder isn't one of them. Yet...are you serious or is toaster oven a slang word for some expensive SMD assembly equipment? Eric KE6US -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Phipps I have no problem with SOIC parts, but the more popular SSOP and TSSOP parts are almost impossible to deal with unless you use some trick like a toaster oven to install the parts prior to other assembly. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.17 - Release Date: 19/04/2005 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:25:50 -0500, Don Brown wrote: Some people think they sound better and musicians say they have a warmer sound (or is it just because the room is warmer). It is well known among audio professionals that the perceived warmth is nothing more than second harmonic distortion, AND the absence of much higher order products (the ear is far more sensitive to high order distortion, because they are less musical -- that is, higher musical intervals). You can buy studio signal processing products from a very well respected designer of mixing consoles that are simply second harmonic generators. The normal setting of the warmth control is at around 3-5%. Jim Brown K9YC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
Wow! This changes everything! SMDs look less and less scary almost every day. It's just a matter of a few new skills and the different tools. I knew I shouldn't have thrown that old toaster oven in my garage away! I just KNEW it! Thanks for the link. Eric KE6US -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Phipps Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:25 AM Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector' Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits Here's one link explaining it, there are others... do a Google search for more. http://www.beloev.net/gbvio.html Larry N8LP EricJ wrote: Toaster oven? My 19 year old son and I live alone. As a result there are a lot of strange melted substances draped over the heating coils in our toaster oven, but solder isn't one of them. Yet...are you serious or is toaster oven a slang word for some expensive SMD assembly equipment? Eric KE6US -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Phipps I have no problem with SOIC parts, but the more popular SSOP and TSSOP parts are almost impossible to deal with unless you use some trick like a toaster oven to install the parts prior to other assembly. . ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
What would be really neat is sets of modules that are like block diagrams. Various mixers , fixed frequency oscillators, maybe a vackar VFO, DDS VFO, Tayloe detector, IF amps, detectors, mixers, etc. Publish all the characterization data (input and output impedance, various voltage requirements, etc.) along with them. Then you would be able to plug the bits together to make different types of transmitters, receivers, transverters, and such. Think of the mini module kits, but more variety. While I don't shy away from kit building, through hole or SMD, functional blocks would allow people like mmyself to more easily explore the design / engineering side of radio. Just a thought, 73, John AA2BN ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
At 05:21 PM 4/19/2005, wayne burdick wrote... That said, looking into my crystal ball I can see a time when home pick-'n'-place machines with AI-enabled vision systems become commonplace Is that a pre-announcement of a new kit? Where do I get in line? ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] SMD-based kits
Surface-mount (SMD) components are easy to work with, *if* you have very steady hands, good visual acuity (aided by a magnifier), and a very fine-tip soldering iron (etc.). I've done a lot of SMD work myself, and can even read the labels on 0805 resistors ;) Our new T1-FT817 interface cable has a tiny board loaded with 0402-sized components inside a mini-DIN connector, and I built the first one by hand. So don't get me wrong -- I think SMDs can be a lot of fun. However, supporting SMD-based kits would be an absolute nightmare. Many parts have cryptic labels, or none at all, notably capacitors. Keeping track of parts as you build -- which requires a lot of discipline -- is just the tip of the iceberg. Imagine for a moment that you're an Elecraft customer-service tech, confronted daily by kits with hundreds of SMDS, many of which are installed in the wrong place, not soldered correctly, damaged due to heating, etc. Problems like this can be very painful to troubleshoot because of the labeling problem. Already, Gary spends most of his time finding and fixing problems with soldering and incorrect component installation. So, what's more likely is that we would offer small SMD-based kits that have BIG, BOLD, UNAVOIDABLE, UN-FINE print that says, in effect, DON'T TRY THIS AT HOMEUnless you really want to. And unfortunately, this necessity translates to a small market for the kits. That said, looking into my crystal ball I can see a time when home pick-'n'-place machines with AI-enabled vision systems become commonplace 73, Wayne N6KR --- http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
And is THIS the next project from Aptos ? ? ? ;)) 73, Van W1WCG snip That said, looking into my crystal ball I can see a time when home pick-'n'-place machines with AI-enabled vision systems become commonplace ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wayne burdick Sent: 19 April 2005 22:21 To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits snip However, supporting SMD-based kits would be an absolute nightmare. Many parts have cryptic labels, or none at all, notably capacitors. Keeping track of parts as you build -- which requires a lot of discipline -- is just the tip of the iceberg. Imagine for a moment that you're an Elecraft customer-service tech, confronted daily by kits with hundreds of SMDS, many of which are installed in the wrong place, not soldered correctly, damaged due to heating, etc. Problems like this can be very painful to troubleshoot because of the labeling problem. Already, Gary spends most of his time finding and fixing problems with soldering and incorrect component installation. Wayne You are right, misplaced, unmarked parts error tracing without a proper BON tester and jig would be a serious pain. But you could supply the kit with MLCC already fitted. Soldered or held by glue dots for the customer to solder to avoid this very issue. There is not that many other parts that would be unmarked if minimum size was kept to 0805, could even stay with 1206 as these are quite close to the pitch of R's used already. Would be good for the option kits, possibly front panel controller board at least as the available space is at a premium. That said, looking into my crystal ball I can see a time when home pick-'n'-place machines with AI-enabled vision systems become commonplace With the amount of reasonably cheap premade XY tables/linear guides and PC axis controllers around (some in kit form!) all that's needed is some will power, a Z axis solution and some double sided sticky tape to hold down the SMT parts for picking! Still leaves the best xI around, the human eye brain to do the inspection job though. Of course with the state of electronics manufacturing today, if your garage is big enough, I have seen small footprint SMT placers go for next to nothing at auction. John (Serious lover of all things SMT... :-) ) 73, Wayne N6KR --- http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
I'll leave the SMD stuff to you younger guys with better eyesight than mine! Having been an 'in the field' electronics tech (and part time engineer!) for YEARS, in the avionics and marine electronics field, I have dropped my share of parts on the floor! I can agree with Wayne on these teensy pieces being UNMARKED (curse you bastards in the component fabrication business!), or marked with some silly code or house number, I don't intend looking for the inevidible dropped part! I have gotten more fumbly with age and have trouble keeping up with small parts and hardware now. Have had some fun building the K1 and an extra board for it. IDing those pieces CAN be confusing even with the micro printing on them. Unmarked SMD's would be out of the question! I can imagine it would be a nightmare for Wayne's techs trying to sort a returned kit out with misplaced parts! I'll take my SMD's mounted already..thank you! 73, Sandy W5TVW - Original Message - From: John A. Ross[RSDTV] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'wayne burdick' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Elecraft Reflector' elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:39 PM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits | -Original Message- | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wayne burdick | Sent: 19 April 2005 22:21 | To: Elecraft Reflector | Subject: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits | | snip | | However, supporting SMD-based kits would be an absolute | nightmare. Many parts have cryptic labels, or none at all, | notably capacitors. Keeping track of parts as you build -- | which requires a lot of discipline -- is just the tip of the | iceberg. Imagine for a moment that you're an Elecraft | customer-service tech, confronted daily by kits with hundreds | of SMDS, many of which are installed in the wrong place, not | soldered correctly, damaged due to heating, etc. Problems | like this can be very painful to troubleshoot because of the | labeling problem. Already, Gary spends most of his time | finding and fixing problems with soldering and incorrect | component installation. | | Wayne | | You are right, misplaced, unmarked parts error tracing without a proper BON | tester and jig would be a serious pain. | | But you could supply the kit with MLCC already fitted. Soldered or held by | glue dots for the customer to solder to avoid this very issue. | | There is not that many other parts that would be unmarked if minimum size | was kept to 0805, could even stay with 1206 as these are quite close to the | pitch of R's used already. | | Would be good for the option kits, possibly front panel controller board | at least as the available space is at a premium. | | That said, looking into my crystal ball I can see a time when | home pick-'n'-place machines with AI-enabled vision systems | become commonplace | | With the amount of reasonably cheap premade XY tables/linear guides and PC | axis controllers around (some in kit form!) all that's needed is some will | power, a Z axis solution and some double sided sticky tape to hold down the | SMT parts for picking! | | Still leaves the best xI around, the human eye brain to do the inspection | job though. | | Of course with the state of electronics manufacturing today, if your garage | is big enough, I have seen small footprint SMT placers go for next to | nothing at auction. | | John | | (Serious lover of all things SMT... :-) ) | | | | 73, | Wayne | N6KR | | | --- | | http://www.elecraft.com | | ___ | Elecraft mailing list | Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net | You must be a subscriber to post to the list. | Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): | http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft | | Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm | Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com | | | ___ | Elecraft mailing list | Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net | You must be a subscriber to post to the list. | Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): | http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft | | Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm | Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com | ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
Hi OM, Shall we back to basic? One of the advantages of kits from Elecraft is 'without' SMD stuff for the 'normal' skill builders. I consider myself is a 'normal' skill builders though I can handle SMD. Without SMD, most of elecraft kits can be handled by simple and easily avaliable tools. Falling SMD stuff on the floor is always a nightmare. I have to ask my two kids to look for me because they have better eye sight. It will be up to Elecraft to decide whether there are SMD based kits. However, non-SMD kits should always be provided as an alternative from marketing / maintenance point of views. It is my 2 cents opinion. 72/73 Johnny Siu builder of s/n 1146, 3837, 4165, 4255, 4597 - Original Message - From: Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: John A. Ross[RSDTV] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'wayne burdick' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Elecraft Reflector' elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 7:35 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits I'll leave the SMD stuff to you younger guys with better eyesight than mine! Having been an 'in the field' electronics tech (and part time engineer!) for YEARS, in the avionics and marine electronics field, I have dropped my share of parts on the floor! I can agree with Wayne on these teensy pieces being UNMARKED (curse you bastards in the component fabrication business!), or marked with some silly code or house number, I don't intend looking for the inevidible dropped part! I have gotten more fumbly with age and have trouble keeping up with small parts and hardware now. Have had some fun building the K1 and an extra board for it. IDing those pieces CAN be confusing even with the micro printing on them. Unmarked SMD's would be out of the question! I can imagine it would be a nightmare for Wayne's techs trying to sort a returned kit out with misplaced parts! I'll take my SMD's mounted already..thank you! 73, Sandy W5TVW - Original Message - From: John A. Ross[RSDTV] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'wayne burdick' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Elecraft Reflector' elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:39 PM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits | -Original Message- | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wayne burdick | Sent: 19 April 2005 22:21 | To: Elecraft Reflector | Subject: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits | | snip | | However, supporting SMD-based kits would be an absolute | nightmare. Many parts have cryptic labels, or none at all, | notably capacitors. Keeping track of parts as you build -- | which requires a lot of discipline -- is just the tip of the | iceberg. Imagine for a moment that you're an Elecraft | customer-service tech, confronted daily by kits with hundreds | of SMDS, many of which are installed in the wrong place, not | soldered correctly, damaged due to heating, etc. Problems | like this can be very painful to troubleshoot because of the | labeling problem. Already, Gary spends most of his time | finding and fixing problems with soldering and incorrect | component installation. | | Wayne | | You are right, misplaced, unmarked parts error tracing without a proper BON | tester and jig would be a serious pain. | | But you could supply the kit with MLCC already fitted. Soldered or held by | glue dots for the customer to solder to avoid this very issue. | | There is not that many other parts that would be unmarked if minimum size | was kept to 0805, could even stay with 1206 as these are quite close to the | pitch of R's used already. | | Would be good for the option kits, possibly front panel controller board | at least as the available space is at a premium. | | That said, looking into my crystal ball I can see a time when | home pick-'n'-place machines with AI-enabled vision systems | become commonplace | | With the amount of reasonably cheap premade XY tables/linear guides and PC | axis controllers around (some in kit form!) all that's needed is some will | power, a Z axis solution and some double sided sticky tape to hold down the | SMT parts for picking! | | Still leaves the best xI around, the human eye brain to do the inspection | job though. | | Of course with the state of electronics manufacturing today, if your garage | is big enough, I have seen small footprint SMT placers go for next to | nothing at auction. | | John | | (Serious lover of all things SMT... :-) ) | | | | 73, | Wayne | N6KR | | ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] SMD-based kits
Hi, Everybody, I have been saying essentially what Wayne has said here for quite some time: that as we head into the age of surface mount that has the potential to kill kit-building and also kill the tradition of hams working on their own gear. I have discussed this at length with my Dad and we are for example both keeping our Ten Tec Omni VI's forever, simply because it is one of the last of the leaded component-built rigs and has a greater chance of being maintained by us for a very long time. (The K2, obviously, falls into the same category.) None of us is getting any younger and as our eyes age and our hands get ever shakier, we will less and less be able to work on our own surface mount rigs. It is rather sad. You hear of unbuilt Heathkit kits all the time; they appear at online auctions and such and command incredibly high prices for the nostalgic value. I can foresee the day when unbuilt Elecrafts will command similarly gigantic prices, but for a different reason: that they likely will be the only kits left on planet Earth. Everything else will have died out as it went SMD. Already, we see certain electronic components disappearing. How long before it's impossible to find, say, a resistor with leads? Capacitors? Inductors? DIP package integrated circuits? A 2N? We should all buy a spare K2 and put it in our attics. It may enable us to hasten our retirements a few years! Seriously, I don't know what the answer is. There is a middle ground that has already been demonstrated with for example the KDSP2, where the really tough SMD stuff that would be impossible for most of us to construct is pre-assembled. That should hold us for a while, right? Regards, Al W6LX ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
