Re: [Elecraft] Signal analysis with the P3
Interesting, So, given a decent mic insert the overall audio response is very much coloured by the housing of the the insert... Close talking a mic gives a better S/N ratio, less background noise and room colouration, but yields too much bass due to proximity effect? How to overcome too much bass (besides moving further from the mic)? What effect do pop shields and the various muffs have on the sound? . I do understand and practice Tx audio EQ to restrict the Tx BW to 2.8-3kHz and attenuate useless audio below say 200Hz. for maximum communications efficiency. I'm interested in good communications microphones and technique, but not in spending, silly money (hundreds, thousands) when a decent mic insert can be had for pennies, (almost). I'm not interested in ESSB, done well or otherwise. A good clean 3KHz SSB signal stands out and is very noticeable on our bands today. There are some very knowledgeable audio and broadcast people on this list and I'm always keen to listen to their opinions. 73, F5VJC On 29 April 2014 20:53, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > On 4/29/2014 12:32 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: > > Not sure it is limited to dynamic mics. > > Proximity effect is not limited to dynamic mics. But it seems to be > more common with dynamic mics used for amateur service because the > electret has both a higher output level and more low end to start with. > > > I recorded myself using his velocity mic [the large iconic RCA which >> had a prismatic shape] on an Ampex 350 at varying distances. As I got >> closer, I became more and more a bass. >> > > I took every advantage of proximity effect when I started in radio. > I had an overnight air shift - I worked the mic as close as I could > and kept my voice level down in order to generate that more pleasing > "low, soothing tone". When it came time to rip and read the news, I > backed off, talked louder and faster - almost sounded like a different > person. > > 73, > >... Joe, W4TV > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to foxfive@gmail.com > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Signal analysis with the P3
On 4/29/2014 3:52 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote: Message: 12 Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 09:32:33 -0700 From: Fred Jensen To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Signal analysis with the P3 ... I recorded myself using his velocity mic [the large iconic RCA which had a prismatic shape] on an Ampex 350 at varying distances. Fred K6DGW The large iconic broadcast mic was probably the DX-44. RCA's next iconic mic was the DX-77, which resembled a large pharmaceutical capsule, hemispherical on both ends and mounted in the middle. Until a few years ago, these sometimes appeared on late night tv show host's desks, probably just for their iconicness (sic). Dave, K2YG __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Signal analysis with the P3
On 4/29/2014 12:32 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: > Not sure it is limited to dynamic mics. Proximity effect is not limited to dynamic mics. But it seems to be more common with dynamic mics used for amateur service because the electret has both a higher output level and more low end to start with. I recorded myself using his velocity mic [the large iconic RCA which had a prismatic shape] on an Ampex 350 at varying distances. As I got closer, I became more and more a bass. I took every advantage of proximity effect when I started in radio. I had an overnight air shift - I worked the mic as close as I could and kept my voice level down in order to generate that more pleasing "low, soothing tone". When it came time to rip and read the news, I backed off, talked louder and faster - almost sounded like a different person. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Signal analysis with the P3
On 4/29/2014 9:32 AM, Fred Jensen wrote: As I got closer, I became more and more a bass. Our "anchorman" was right up on top of the mic sitting on his desk. That characteristic of a mic is called "proximity effect," and is the result of the combining of front and rear openings to a mic capsule to form a directional pattern. Most such mics have a cardioid pattern,named because it is sort of heart-shaped. Most hand held mics intended for live performance are cardioids, and have this characteristic. In the 1950s, the engineers at Electro-Voice invented a cardioid mic with an additional opening farther down the handle of the mic that greatly reduced proximity effect. That mic, the model 666, came to be known as the "Buchannon Hammer," because it was demonstrated to broadcasters by using it to drive a nail to prove its ruggedness. EV still makes excellent mics using this principle, and they are quite popular in broadcast. One of them, the RE20, is the one you see most often on TV on a boom with a talk radio jock. The mics I use for NCCC meetings are RE16s, a smaller, handheld version that uses the same principle. Over the years, omnidirectional mics have also been popular with broadcasters, because they have no proximity effect. EV pretty much owns that market too, their model 635A having been a standard for at least 40 years. And it was one of the two founders of EV, Al Kahn, K4FW, who founded and ran Ten Tec when his partner decided they should sell the biz to a conglomerate. Al was a CW guy. I worked him once. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Signal analysis with the P3
Not sure it is limited to dynamic mics. I supported myself in college working on the engineering crew at the local TV station. The Station Mgr once complained that the newscaster "boomed." I recorded myself using his velocity mic [the large iconic RCA which had a prismatic shape] on an Ampex 350 at varying distances. As I got closer, I became more and more a bass. Our "anchorman" was right up on top of the mic sitting on his desk. The rest of my crew thought the tone of my voice is pretty much "average male." Using my K3, I've had a chance to be recorded by a friend on his K3 who then sent me a CD of the recordings. Close-talking with my Heil boom mic [from Elecraft, electret element] with the TX EQ flat did the same thing and I became significantly less intelligible on the recording. On SSB, I keep the mic just a little below my chin, talking across rather than into it [handy for drinking coffee and eating snacks in a contest too]. I also use the K9YC TX EQ settings. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org OT Trivia: I was in college from 1957 to 1962. We were the only TV station in town, cable and satellite TV and the Internet hadn't been invented yet, and out of an 18 hour broadcast day, we had thirty [30] minutes of news ... 15 minutes of "Jack Smith and the News" [local], followed by "The CBS Evening News with Douglas Edwards." 30 minutes seemed to cover things pretty well then. :-) On 4/29/2014 7:28 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: but it can also be noticed on dynamic mics when males with voices that are particularly low pitched "close talk" a mic due to the increased low frequency response from the proximity effect. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Signal analysis with the P3
Thank you Joe, I have been looking for an explanation of most of what you covered here for several months. I'll pass it on to my buddy that mentioned the "Icom sound"! -- Thanks and 73's, For equipment, and software setups and reviews see: www.nk7z.net for MixW support see; http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info for Dopplergram information see: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info for MM-SSTV see: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info On Tue, 2014-04-29 at 10:04 -0400, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > A "spike" on the left of a USB signal is normally an indication of > insufficient carrier suppression (carrier leakage). Signal to the > left of that is generally insufficient opposite sideband suppression > (sideband leakage) or regenerated sideband due to excess IMD in the > transmitter. > > However, if the other station is using ESSB with excess low frequency > content below 150 - 200 Hz, the spike can be a "false carrier" due to > ringing in the modulator when it is over driven by the excess low > frequency content. "False carrier" or modulator ringing is almost > always accompanied by IMD and regenerated opposite sideband. > > Most SSB users will tend to zero beat the false carrier. That will > cause a "robotic" or "hollow" sound because excess low frequency > content, the signal is actually tuned slightly off frequency, and > the normal/regenerated sidebands are not producing the same/in phase > audio. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > On 4/29/2014 9:31 AM, Slava Baytalskiy wrote: > > Hello everybody! > > Ever since i got my new P3 - i've been looking at people's signals > > (naturally). > > And i've noticed the following: > > When using USB on 10 meters, talking locally, there are a couple of folks > > that use ICOM radios and i can see these spikes on the left of the carrier. > > Normally, in USB, all the signal shows up on the right, correct? > > But with these guys there's a lot of signal on the left as well. > > And they sound a bit robotic, as if they were off frequency a bit. But they > > aren't. > > When they switch to, say, Yaesu or a Kenwood i don't see that same graph. > > But on the ICOM its very pronounced (except the older ones like 756 Pro > > III). > > Saw it last night with an ICOM IC-7000. > > > > Is this normal? Has anyone else noticed this? > > This P3 is certainly giving me a lot of insight i didn't have before... > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Slava B > > W2RMS > > __ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > Message delivered to li...@subich.com > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Signal analysis with the P3
One additional note ... it is not necessary to be running ESSB to generate the "false carrier". Bandwidth is not an issue - only that there be *excess* low frequency drive to the modulator (analog or DSP). False carrier (ringing below 50 Hz) tends to be most common in situations where low frequency audio has been "enhanced" or high frequencies have been cut and the mic gain increased for more "talk power". Low frequency ringing is more prevalent with electret mics due to their higher output and additional low frequency response but it can also be noticed on dynamic mics when males with voices that are particularly low pitched "close talk" a mic due to the increased low frequency response from the proximity effect. This low frequency ringing is a major reason (in addition to hum and background noise reductions) professional audio guys use a (typical) 100 Hz low cut filter in "talk" radio. A six to 12 dB reduction in the strong fundamental does not upset the voice's overall tonal balance but the 10 dB or so reduction in low frequency energy prevents overload problems in the electronics. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/29/2014 10:04 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: A "spike" on the left of a USB signal is normally an indication of insufficient carrier suppression (carrier leakage). Signal to the left of that is generally insufficient opposite sideband suppression (sideband leakage) or regenerated sideband due to excess IMD in the transmitter. However, if the other station is using ESSB with excess low frequency content below 150 - 200 Hz, the spike can be a "false carrier" due to ringing in the modulator when it is over driven by the excess low frequency content. "False carrier" or modulator ringing is almost always accompanied by IMD and regenerated opposite sideband. Most SSB users will tend to zero beat the false carrier. That will cause a "robotic" or "hollow" sound because excess low frequency content, the signal is actually tuned slightly off frequency, and the normal/regenerated sidebands are not producing the same/in phase audio. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/29/2014 9:31 AM, Slava Baytalskiy wrote: Hello everybody! Ever since i got my new P3 - i've been looking at people's signals (naturally). And i've noticed the following: When using USB on 10 meters, talking locally, there are a couple of folks that use ICOM radios and i can see these spikes on the left of the carrier. Normally, in USB, all the signal shows up on the right, correct? But with these guys there's a lot of signal on the left as well. And they sound a bit robotic, as if they were off frequency a bit. But they aren't. When they switch to, say, Yaesu or a Kenwood i don't see that same graph. But on the ICOM its very pronounced (except the older ones like 756 Pro III). Saw it last night with an ICOM IC-7000. Is this normal? Has anyone else noticed this? This P3 is certainly giving me a lot of insight i didn't have before... Thanks in advance! Slava B W2RMS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Signal analysis with the P3
A "spike" on the left of a USB signal is normally an indication of insufficient carrier suppression (carrier leakage). Signal to the left of that is generally insufficient opposite sideband suppression (sideband leakage) or regenerated sideband due to excess IMD in the transmitter. However, if the other station is using ESSB with excess low frequency content below 150 - 200 Hz, the spike can be a "false carrier" due to ringing in the modulator when it is over driven by the excess low frequency content. "False carrier" or modulator ringing is almost always accompanied by IMD and regenerated opposite sideband. Most SSB users will tend to zero beat the false carrier. That will cause a "robotic" or "hollow" sound because excess low frequency content, the signal is actually tuned slightly off frequency, and the normal/regenerated sidebands are not producing the same/in phase audio. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/29/2014 9:31 AM, Slava Baytalskiy wrote: Hello everybody! Ever since i got my new P3 - i've been looking at people's signals (naturally). And i've noticed the following: When using USB on 10 meters, talking locally, there are a couple of folks that use ICOM radios and i can see these spikes on the left of the carrier. Normally, in USB, all the signal shows up on the right, correct? But with these guys there's a lot of signal on the left as well. And they sound a bit robotic, as if they were off frequency a bit. But they aren't. When they switch to, say, Yaesu or a Kenwood i don't see that same graph. But on the ICOM its very pronounced (except the older ones like 756 Pro III). Saw it last night with an ICOM IC-7000. Is this normal? Has anyone else noticed this? This P3 is certainly giving me a lot of insight i didn't have before... Thanks in advance! Slava B W2RMS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Signal analysis with the P3
Hi Slava, I have also noticed this, is the robotic sound you are referring to a low frequency sort of "wha wha" sound which modulates along with the normal voice signal. I have heard this before as well, and had a friend describe it as "typical Icom", which leaves me in the dark about what it is, I add the Icom comment only to help describe the sound, (assuming it might be specific to Icom), not make a statement about Icom radios. I have not found one yet now that I have my K3/P3 combination, which means maybe I need to open up the less than 200 HZ pass band on the K3, which is not going to happen. -- Thanks and 73's, For equipment, and software setups and reviews see: www.nk7z.net for MixW support see; http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info for Dopplergram information see: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info for MM-SSTV see: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info On Tue, 2014-04-29 at 09:31 -0400, Slava Baytalskiy wrote: > Hello everybody! > Ever since i got my new P3 - i've been looking at people's signals > (naturally). > And i've noticed the following: > When using USB on 10 meters, talking locally, there are a couple of folks > that use ICOM radios and i can see these spikes on the left of the carrier. > Normally, in USB, all the signal shows up on the right, correct? > But with these guys there's a lot of signal on the left as well. > And they sound a bit robotic, as if they were off frequency a bit. But they > aren't. > When they switch to, say, Yaesu or a Kenwood i don't see that same graph. > But on the ICOM its very pronounced (except the older ones like 756 Pro III). > Saw it last night with an ICOM IC-7000. > > Is this normal? Has anyone else noticed this? > This P3 is certainly giving me a lot of insight i didn't have before... > > Thanks in advance! > > Slava B > W2RMS > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] Signal analysis with the P3
Hello everybody! Ever since i got my new P3 - i've been looking at people's signals (naturally). And i've noticed the following: When using USB on 10 meters, talking locally, there are a couple of folks that use ICOM radios and i can see these spikes on the left of the carrier. Normally, in USB, all the signal shows up on the right, correct? But with these guys there's a lot of signal on the left as well. And they sound a bit robotic, as if they were off frequency a bit. But they aren't. When they switch to, say, Yaesu or a Kenwood i don't see that same graph. But on the ICOM its very pronounced (except the older ones like 756 Pro III). Saw it last night with an ICOM IC-7000. Is this normal? Has anyone else noticed this? This P3 is certainly giving me a lot of insight i didn't have before... Thanks in advance! Slava B W2RMS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
