Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
I wrote: Thank goodness for iambic mode A. I never understood how mode B, the result of a logic design error in an early (1960s) electronic keyer design, caught on. Bill wrote: I built a Mini-MOS key (from a 73 magazine article) back in 1979. It has dot and dash memories -- the quality that gives it Mode B. It takes extra circuitry to do this -- it's not just a logic design error. And Dan wrote: I had a Heathkit keyer on which I learned iambic, and it was all discrete logic gates and RC circuits. No ICs. It did exactly what the schematic said it would do. No error there. True, mode B did catch on (long before 1979) and circuits and chips were purposely designed to implement it. But the evil that spawned mode B occurred in an improperly designed keyer from the mid-1960s. Somewhere I've specific details...but not with me now. I don't find Mode B timing impossible - in fact, it is more relaxed than mode A -- you let go of the paddles a lot sooner. Which is the **only** advantage that can be claimed for mode B, though I see no value to this advantage and a lot sooner is not how I would quantify it. If mode B reduced the number of paddle manipulations required over mode A, it would have purpose. But exactly the same amount of paddle manipulation is required regardless of character sent. I think the bottom line is that you prefer whatever technique you've trained on. There's 100 percent agreement here! Learn one mode and the other will seem impossible. I haven't any moral objections to mode B, just to the firmware designers who design an embedded keyer in a rig to use only one mode and that mode is mode B! (Example...the nasty FT-817!!) For whatever reasons some such firmware designers seem more often to choose mode B, so I actually recommend that mode B be the mode learned if one is just learning iambic keying. Thank goodness the Elecraft keyers allow either mode! 73, Mike / KK5F ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
On Fri, 20 May 2005, Mike Morrow wrote: I think the bottom line is that you prefer whatever technique you've trained on. There's 100 percent agreement here! Learn one mode and the other will seem impossible. I haven't any moral objections to mode B, just to the firmware designers who design an embedded keyer in a rig to use only one mode and that mode is mode B! (Example...the nasty FT-817!!) For whatever reasons some such firmware designers seem more often to choose mode B, so I actually recommend that mode B be the mode learned if one is just learning iambic keying. I think it can all be traced to Entwistle the Lab Technician. Entwistle was a Sooner, bouncing from facility to facility. Along with other bad habits, such as womanizing, chewing tobacco, drinking and passing gas in public, he used mode B. Rather than be confronted with his unseemly life style, the designers would not only assign prototype building, but also product testing to Entwistle. Since he didn't know mode B, he could neither build or test it, and simply told the designers that their design was faulty, and suggested an alternative that he felt confident would pass alll tests(Mode B). Rumor has it that he was related to Daedalus Icarus. While IBM will not confirm his employment in Persoanl Computer development efforts, the fact that the early PC could not process simple addition problems may be an Entwistle signature. 73,Thom-k3hrn www.zerobeat.net Home of QRP Web Ring, Drakelist home page, Free Classified Ads for amateur radio, QRP IRC channel Elecraft Owners Database www.tlchost.net/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
And Straight Key for those of us who have never been impressed with either! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Morrow Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 12:01 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles? Thank goodness the Elecraft keyers allow either mode! 73, Mike / KK5F ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
On Fri, 20 May 2005, Mike Morrow wrote: I wrote: Thank goodness for iambic mode A. I never understood how mode B, the result of a logic design error in an early (1960s) electronic keyer design, caught on. Bill wrote: I built a Mini-MOS key (from a 73 magazine article) back in 1979. It has dot and dash memories -- the quality that gives it Mode B. It takes extra circuitry to do this -- it's not just a logic design error. And Dan wrote: I had a Heathkit keyer on which I learned iambic, and it was all discrete logic gates and RC circuits. No ICs. It did exactly what the schematic said it would do. No error there. True, mode B did catch on (long before 1979) and circuits and chips were purposely designed to implement it. But the evil that spawned mode B occurred in an improperly designed keyer from the mid-1960s. Somewhere I've specific details...but not with me now. Not quite an answer but the ARRL article on John Curtis said, (according to John, Mode B was actually a design error by an unnamed company). http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2002/02/04/2/?nc=1 -- Hisashi T Fujinaka - [EMAIL PROTECTED] BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
Hisashi Fujinaka wrote: Not quite an answer but the ARRL article on John Curtis said, (according to John, Mode B was actually a design error by an unnamed company). http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2002/02/04/2/?nc=1 -- Thank you Fujinaka-san! I enjoyed reading the article. I noticed one error for those tracking the famous (or infamous) mode B. The article said, In 1981 Curtis found that many people liked the mode B keying characteristics of Ten-Tec, Heath, Nye, and Accu-keyers. I don't know about the others, but the Accu-Keyer was a mode A keyer, not a mode B. I used a homebrew Accu-Keyer built straight from the QST article for 20 years. Since I reverted to a bug it's now sitting on the shelf, but still works as well as the day it built in the mid-1970's. Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
Ron wrote: I kept my hand in on a straight key and passed my 20 wpm Extra Class Amateur and my Commercial RadioTelegraph license tests using a straight key. When I took my Extra exam 25 years ago, they had already eliminated the Morse sending test. Too bad, I thought. When I took my commercial telegraph exam the same year, Morse sending tests were still required (one minute without error at 20 wpm plain language, and16 wpm code groups). I still remember having qualms about using a ratty old FCC office straight key for the 20 wpm test. That's always been about my limit for straight key operation. I built a keyer in the 1970's that I kept and used whenever I used a keyer until I got my K2. It's a Mode A Iambic keyer Thank goodness for iambic mode A. I never understood how mode B, the result of a logic design error in an early (1960s) electronic keyer design, caught on. Its timing is trickier than mode A, but it still requires exactly the same number of hand motions to send a particular character. But mode B seems to have become a default mode on many of today's rigs with internal keyers, such as the Yaesu FT-817 and SWL's DSW series. I bought DSW rigs before knowing they were mode B only, but fortunately Jackson Harbor came out with an aftermarket PIC that allowed mode A. I resolved to never by a rig that did not allow mode A. I love my K1, yet if it were mode B only, I'd never buy one. I use a straight key and bug at all times. I believe the use of a straight key should be a fundamental tool in a skilled Morse operator's tool bag. But I never got comfortable with the Vibroplex I've owned for decades. I too would discourage spending money, if it is limited, on a Morse decoder. There's never been a machine that can match the decoding skill of even a modestly skilled Morse operator. OTOH, the MFJ-418 code practice generator is the best portable CW learning tool ever made, IMHO. It's compact and can be taken anywhere, and it can send practice text or code groups at speeds seldom encountered on the air anymore. I'd have loved to have had one when I was getting ready for the random code group test for the commercial telegraph license. It's just fun to use, even if you've long since taken your last Morse exam. 73, Mike / KK5F ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
Mike wrote: When I took my Extra exam 25 years ago, they had already eliminated the Morse sending test. Too bad, I thought. When I took my commercial telegraph exam the same year, Morse sending tests were still required (one minute without error at 20 wpm plain language, and16 wpm code groups). I still remember having qualms about using a ratty old FCC office straight key for the 20 wpm test. That's always been about my limit for straight key operation. How was the speed determined for a sending test? I know I couldn't sit down at a straight key and send at a specific numeric speed. I can send at a comfortable speed for me to receive, or roughly match speeds with the other operator, but send at exactly 16wpm, no way. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
Jeff wrote: How was the speed determined for a sending test All one could do is estimate the speed, and maybe send a little faster than what the threshold was. There was nothing wrong with sending faster than the requirement. Similar to the receiving test which required perfect copy for at least one minute out of five, one had five minutes to send at or above the required speed, with at least one minute without error. My examiner let me send for about a minute and a half before indicating a pass on each of the two Morse exams. He had to be just estimating the sending speed...there wasn't any way (or real need) to precisely measure it back then. BTW, for many people the 16 wpm random code group receiving test was far harder to pass than the 20 wpm plain language test. Five errors during the five minute session, spread out just right, could prevent getting the 80 consecutive correct random characters. Unlike plain language, one couldn't fill in for missed characters. However, many/most professional operators find random code groups at high speed to be very easy...the sound comes in and the fingers hit the right key on the mill without conscious mental effort. 73, Mike / KK5F ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
You simply had to send a given amount of material within a given time. best, dave belsley, w1euy On May 10, 2005, at 11:23 AM, Jeff Rosenberger wrote: Mike wrote: When I took my Extra exam 25 years ago, they had already eliminated the Morse sending test. Too bad, I thought. When I took my commercial telegraph exam the same year, Morse sending tests were still required (one minute without error at 20 wpm plain language, and16 wpm code groups). I still remember having qualms about using a ratty old FCC office straight key for the 20 wpm test. That's always been about my limit for straight key operation. How was the speed determined for a sending test? I know I couldn't sit down at a straight key and send at a specific numeric speed. I can send at a comfortable speed for me to receive, or roughly match speeds with the other operator, but send at exactly 16wpm, no way. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
Jeff Rosenberger wrote: How was the speed determined for a sending test? I know I couldn't sit down at a straight key and send at a specific numeric speed. I can send at a comfortable speed for me to receive, or roughly match speeds with the other operator, but send at exactly 16wpm, no way. In my experience, the examiner just listened a little and then said 'OK'. I took it twice (13 and 20 wpm), and I don't know anyone who failed it. I don't know about commercial tests, but I was allowed to bring a (large, homebrew) keyer to my extra class test. The examiner just unplugged it when he'd heard enough (luckily I was too young to have a heart attack). -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
Jeff asked: How was the speed determined for a sending test? --- The FCC examiner sat there and listened to you send, and judged whether the sending was acceptable or not - both speed and accuracy. I'm sure that's why the sending test was dropped. There wasn't a decent way to quantify the test so it could be administered by VEC's. That was back before PC's and software were available cheaply to copy code. Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
On May 10, 2005, at 11:23 AM, Jeff Rosenberger wrote: Mike wrote: When I took my Extra exam 25 years ago, they had already eliminated the Morse sending test. Too bad, I thought. When I took my commercial telegraph exam the same year, Morse sending tests were still required (one minute without error at 20 wpm plain language, and16 wpm code groups). I still remember having qualms about using a ratty old FCC office straight key for the 20 wpm test. That's always been about my limit for straight key operation. How was the speed determined for a sending test? I know I couldn't sit down at a straight key and send at a specific numeric speed. I can send at a comfortable speed for me to receive, or roughly match speeds with the other operator, but send at exactly 16wpm, no way. Certainly it was a minimum for certification, not a target to be hit...no? ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
Vic wrote: In my experience, the examiner just listened a little and then said 'OK'. I took it twice (13 and 20 wpm), and I don't know anyone who failed it. I don't know about commercial tests, but I was allowed to bring a (large, homebrew) keyer to my extra class test. The examiner just unplugged it when he'd heard enough (luckily I was too young to have a heart attack). At the San Francisco FCC offices, one could use a bug if one applied in advance, and only for the First Class RadioTelegraph license test. One of the engineers who did the exams told me those were the sessions with the highest failure rates. Ops would be nervous and couldn't control the dits on a bug. One extra dit is a mistake, no matter where it happens! They did not allow keyers of any kind, only bugs by special pre-arrangement. The operator had to demonstrate his/her ability to make proper code, spaces and all. Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
AC7AC wrote: The FCC examiner sat there and listened to you send, and judged whether the sending was acceptable or not - both speed and accuracy. Yep. FCC supplied a straight key, but you could bring your own bug or keyer *if* it could interface to the FCC's setup easily. I'm sure that's why the sending test was dropped. IIRC, the stated reason was that very very few people passed receiving and failed sending. IMHO the real reason was that FCC had a limited number of qualified examiners. There wasn't a decent way to quantify the test so it could be administered by VEC's. I disagree! IIRC, the sending test ended in the late 1970s but the VE system didn't appear until the early 1980s. About a 5 year gap. Exams by mail existed before the VECs. Novice, Technician and Conditional exams could be given by a volunteer examiner (no caps) if certain conditions were met. Testing included code sending and receiving, and proctoring the writtens. So FCC figured that any ham qualified to be a volunteer examiner was qualified to judge at least 13 wpm code. 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
16 wpm or greater. It wasn't necessary to send at that precise speed. They just cut some slack with code groups by reducing the requirement from 20 wpm. I never had an FCC examiner actually listen for the whole time. They would stick one earphone up to their ear, listen for 15 or 20 seconds and set the earphone back down. Always scared hell out of me. I thought they just gave up because I was so bad. Also, the FCC always allowed you to take in your own key. It wasn't necessary to use their aptly described ratty old FCC office straight key. Eric KE6US -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Rosenberger Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:23 AM To: Mike Morrow Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles? Mike wrote: When I took my Extra exam 25 years ago, they had already eliminated the Morse sending test. Too bad, I thought. When I took my commercial telegraph exam the same year, Morse sending tests were still required (one minute without error at 20 wpm plain language, and16 wpm code groups). I still remember having qualms about using a ratty old FCC office straight key for the 20 wpm test. That's always been about my limit for straight key operation. How was the speed determined for a sending test? I know I couldn't sit down at a straight key and send at a specific numeric speed. I can send at a comfortable speed for me to receive, or roughly match speeds with the other operator, but send at exactly 16wpm, no way. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
On Tue, 2005-05-10 at 08:47 -0700, Vic Rosenthal wrote: Jeff Rosenberger wrote: How was the speed determined for a sending test? I know I couldn't sit down at a straight key and send at a specific numeric speed. I can send at a comfortable speed for me to receive, or roughly match speeds with the other operator, but send at exactly 16wpm, no way. In my experience, the examiner just listened a little and then said 'OK'. I took it twice (13 and 20 wpm), and I don't know anyone who failed it. I don't know about commercial tests, but I was allowed to bring a (large, homebrew) keyer to my extra class test. The examiner just unplugged it when he'd heard enough (luckily I was too young to have a heart attack). When I took my 13 wpm test at the Los Angeles FCC office in 1953, the examiner just listened for 30 seconds or so and said that was fine. There was one applicant who failed the sending test at that session. I think he was just too nervous. Bob, N7XY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
EricJ wrote: Also, the FCC always allowed you to take in your own key. It wasn't necessary to use their aptly described ratty old FCC office straight key. Which, in New York anyway, was set to a gap of about 1/2 (1.27 cm) and was either welded or adjusted with a pipe wrench to stay that way! -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
I'm sure it was discretionary. I took the Novice in late '53, and the General in mid '54, at the FCC Office in Los Angeles. Obviously, a bug was inappropriate for the Novice, and while I took my bug for the General, I still had to use the FCC Key, although I don't remember it being ratty. Both times, I probably sent for no more than 10 - 15 seconds and was told You pass. When I went for the Extra in '56, I had just started driving, went alone, and was so involved getting my route planned out so as not to get lost in downtown LA that I arrived several hours early. I had my Lionel J-36 bug, but had practiced 20WPM on a straight key just in case. The examiner was about to give the 2nd telegraph, and told me that if I filled out the app and passed the 25WPM test. Thoroughly intimidated (I was exactly 16 in what seemed like a very adult place), I didn't even ask about using my bug. As I sat down at the straight key, he said, Oh come on, kid! Who do you think you are!? No one can send acceptable code at 25 WPM on a straight key. Plug in the bug and get on with this. Again, I doubt that I sent for more than 10 seconds. With regard to the question that originally started this thread, when I've been asked by a new ham wanting to upgrade, I always tell them, Learn on whatever you are comfortable with. I've never understood the alleged 'purity' that supposedly comes from learning on a straight key first. Just one opinion, YMMV, Fred K6DGW Auburn CA CM98lw EricJ wrote: It must have been discretionary. There was nothing in the regs about what equipment you had to use. I took exams at Boston and Long Beach and took a bug to both of them. Jammed the wedge right into their ratty old FCC office key. Eric KE6US ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
In a message dated 5/8/05 3:56:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I ultimately intend to use paddles as most of you appear to be doing, why is it a bad idea simply to start with a set? I can understand that what I'm really wanting to do is to train my fist and ears, but it looks like paddles involve somewhat different monkey motions and maybe it would make more sense just to buy a set and get on with it. In my limited experience, using a straight key will usually help you learn the code in a way that other keys won't. I recommend starting out with a straight key, then moving on to a bug or keyer once you have mastered the code at a reasonable level. I wouldn't bother with the MFJ unit. There are freeware programs that do the same thing. Or you can simply tape-record yourself sending, put the tapes aside for a week or so, then play the tapes back and see if *you* can copy them. Another trick is to set up your code-generating software (such as the G4FON package) to send a known text, then try to send in step with it. As for the CFO: All the items you buy at this stage are learning tools. You wouldn't send a child to school with only half the required supplies It's a good idea to listen to real live off-the-air code as well as the machine-generated stuff. Off-air code isn't always perfect - I've known more than a few new hams who could do good copy from computer-generated code but fell apart on the real thing until they had some exposure to it. Most of all, remember that what you're learning is a set of skills, not just one or two, and that it takes a variety of tools to do that job. 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
I started out using a straight key 33 years ago, but I see absolutely no reason why you shouldn't just skip the straight key and start using a paddle/keyer combo right away. Most rigs come with built-in keyers these days, and if your rig does not, it's very simple to buy and build one (my favorite is the PicoKeyer from hamgadgets.com). And in the worst case scenario, you can always use one side of a paddle as a straight key. One reason I advise people to learn to send using paddles is that they'll send better code right off. The second reason--and perhaps the most important--is that the paddle is so much easier the arm and wrist than a straight key. That makes working CW more fun, and if something is more fun, then you'll tend to do it more. 73! Dan KB6NU = President, ARROW Comm. Assn. (www.w8pgw.org) ARRL MI Section Affiliated Club Coordinator CW Geek - FISTS #9342 Read my ham radio blog at www.kb6nu.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comrades, I'm working on my code to get my licenses soon. I will want to do CW with the k2 I will buy and build on board our trawler. 1st mate and CFO watches expenses like a hawk and will catch me if I (gasp) buy two things which appear to do same thing. You can't hide much from her on the 36 boat we live on. I intend to get the $80 MFJ code reader because some of you have convinced me that it is a good detector of unreadable output. I'm hoping to get my speed and accuracy up by sending to the MFJ. If I ultimately intend to use paddles as most of you appear to be doing, why is it a bad idea simply to start with a set? I can understand that what I'm really wanting to do is to train my fist and ears, but it looks like paddles involve somewhat different monkey motions and maybe it would make more sense just to buy a set and get on with it. comments? regards, John Ferguson - M/V Arcadian (now in Norfolk,VA waiting for wave amplitude reduction in Chesapeake Bay before continuing northward) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
Hi, John Dan. I started out using a straight key about the same time Dan did, but I still prefer using it over paddles. I never did get the hang of using a keyer much past 15-20 WPM. With the straight key, I can still send at least as fast as I can receive, about 25-30 WPM, and not get too tired. The only reason I use the paddles on my KX1 is because they are smaller than most keys and they are integral to the unit, making them easy to store and carry. At home, I use my trusty Nye Viking straight key. Really, it's what ever floats your boat. Good straight keys (made by Ameco, I think, and good enough to learn on) can still be found for less than $20 brand new. (http://www.youdoitelectronics.com/ the keys aren't listed, but I bought a pair for my kids to learn with not long ago.) You might consider getting one of these and trying them. If you like it, get a better key later. If not, spring for a nice set of paddles and you still have a straight key if you want one. Rick, WD8KEL Dan KB6NU wrote: I started out using a straight key 33 years ago, but I see absolutely no reason why you shouldn't just skip the straight key and start using a paddle/keyer combo right away. Most rigs come with built-in keyers these days, and if your rig does not, it's very simple to buy and build one (my favorite is the PicoKeyer from hamgadgets.com). And in the worst case scenario, you can always use one side of a paddle as a straight key. One reason I advise people to learn to send using paddles is that they'll send better code right off. The second reason--and perhaps the most important--is that the paddle is so much easier the arm and wrist than a straight key. That makes working CW more fun, and if something is more fun, then you'll tend to do it more. 73! Dan KB6NU = President, ARROW Comm. Assn. (www.w8pgw.org) ARRL MI Section Affiliated Club Coordinator CW Geek - FISTS #9342 Read my ham radio blog at www.kb6nu.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comrades, I'm working on my code to get my licenses soon. I will want to do CW with the k2 I will buy and build on board our trawler. 1st mate and CFO watches expenses like a hawk and will catch me if I (gasp) buy two things which appear to do same thing. You can't hide much from her on the 36 boat we live on. I intend to get the $80 MFJ code reader because some of you have convinced me that it is a good detector of unreadable output. I'm hoping to get my speed and accuracy up by sending to the MFJ. If I ultimately intend to use paddles as most of you appear to be doing, why is it a bad idea simply to start with a set? I can understand that what I'm really wanting to do is to train my fist and ears, but it looks like paddles involve somewhat different monkey motions and maybe it would make more sense just to buy a set and get on with it. comments? regards, John Ferguson - M/V Arcadian (now in Norfolk,VA waiting for wave amplitude reduction in Chesapeake Bay before continuing northward) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
Hi John! In 1989 we started listening to tapes with speed from 8-15wpm. After that programs was available for pc. For me it didn't matter what I was using. When I went to bed I used tapes while falling asleep to have the rythm in the ear. Copying cw is like training for a marathon. Your brain has to be used to perform over time to pass a cw test. As other gentlemen here has stated , copy cw is the most important thing. As for methods , some like to adjust slowly up in speed , while others like to copy just above testspeed starting with more space between the letters and slowly compress the spaces until normal is reached. Me to would advise to buy a straight key before advancing to paddle. I started with straight key and sended with my writing fist then went to a paddle , that went good. But there is a but , I converted to send with my left fist so I could have my writing fist ready with the pen. This gave me more smooth operation , so today I paddle with my left fist and straight keying with my right fist. My left fist would never give good code with straight key because it tired out and sounded like jamming after short while. If you have a good friend that can code a book for you into a mp3 player that would give you some satisfaction trying to decode it. Also 5 by 5 letter code would be good to have. Good luck John. 73 de LA1PHA - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 9:55 PM Subject: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles? Comrades, I'm working on my code to get my licenses soon. I will want to do CW with the k2 I will buy and build on board our trawler. 1st mate and CFO watches expenses like a hawk and will catch me if I (gasp) buy two things which appear to do same thing. You can't hide much from her on the 36 boat we live on. I intend to get the $80 MFJ code reader because some of you have convinced me that it is a good detector of unreadable output. I'm hoping to get my speed and accuracy up by sending to the MFJ. If I ultimately intend to use paddles as most of you appear to be doing, why is it a bad idea simply to start with a set? I can understand that what I'm really wanting to do is to train my fist and ears, but it looks like paddles involve somewhat different monkey motions and maybe it would make more sense just to buy a set and get on with it. comments? regards, John Ferguson - M/V Arcadian (now in Norfolk,VA waiting for wave amplitude reduction in Chesapeake Bay before continuing northward) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
I did the same thing, only I'm left handed, but the same idea. Because of the finer dexterity needed for a straight key, I am forced to use my left hand for that. I can send better with my right foot than my right hand. But with a paddle I'm nearly ambidexterous. I switched to my right hand with a paddle so that I could have my left hand free for writing notes, logging, etc. But I found I can now use a paddle with either my left or right hand with equal ease. All I have to do is reverse the paddle functions in the keyer (dits always on the thumb). Eric KE6US -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Arntzen Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 1:58 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles? I started with straight key and sended with my writing fist then went to a paddle , that went good. But there is a but , I converted to send with my left fist so I could have my writing fist ready with the pen. This gave me more smooth operation , so today I paddle with my left fist and straight keying with my right fist. My left fist would never give good code with straight key because it tired out and sounded like jamming after short while. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
I think everyone should own a straight key - they come in handy at times and do not cost that much. They will key any rig you might ever own, can't say the same for keyers without additional circuitry. I mostly use some sort of keyer and paddle. Which to learn on? I would lean toward the straight key first. Going from that to the keyer/paddle should be relatively easy. The MFJ code reader? I have one, it is not really that good (for anything) --- there are free programs that you can run on a pc with a sound card that will decode cw as well or better than the MFJ unit. The first step to learning CW of course is that of receiving. As you listen to others on the air make some notes of what others do that makes it hard to copy (like run everything together) and try to avoid doing so yourself. 73/72 - Mike WA8BXN ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
Dear John, The best code reader is the one between your ears. At one time it was taught that you had to learn to send on a hand key but in this day of built-in keyers, that probably isn't necessary. I'd use the money you were going to spend on the code reader for a keyer paddle. Good luck learning CW. It's worth the effort. 73, Dave N7AF - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 12:55 PM Subject: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles? ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comrades, I'm working on my code to get my licenses soon. I will want to do CW with the k2 I will buy and build on board our trawler. 1st mate and CFO watches expenses like a hawk and will catch me if I (gasp) buy two things which appear to do same thing. You can't hide much from her on the 36 boat we live on. I intend to get the $80 MFJ code reader because some of you have convinced me that it is a good detector of unreadable output. I'm hoping to get my speed and accuracy up by sending to the MFJ. If I ultimately intend to use paddles as most of you appear to be doing, why is it a bad idea simply to start with a set? I can understand that what I'm really wanting to do is to train my fist and ears, but it looks like paddles involve somewhat different monkey motions and maybe it would make more sense just to buy a set and get on with it. comments? regards, John Ferguson - M/V Arcadian (now in Norfolk,VA waiting for wave amplitude reduction in Chesapeake Bay before continuing northward) John I am sure everyone will have an opinion and they will all be different. So here goes mine along with some background. In the early 70's I had and instrutograph (sp) that used paper tape to send code at any speed you set the motor drive to. Much like the computer generated code practice today. I made an offer to make code tapes for anyone that sent me a cassette. A high school student call and I became an Elmer via telephone. After several months of learning the code from the tapes I met him in person and gave him the novice code test which he passed with a perfect copy. I was not required to test his sending but I had a CPO and key with me and had him try sending for his very first time. What he sent sounded like it was machine sent. It was the only code he had ever heard. He passed his novice, upgraded and kept his first call for over 30 years. He also started with QRP and has stayed with it. My point is don't buy any key until you know the code and can copy with out effort at over 10 wpm. Only then buy the paddles and keyer. There are far too many people who think the know the code who should be forced to copy their own sending. That young man was WB6JBM who was a founder of the Flying Pigs QRP Club. 73 John WA8KNE ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
I would be VERY surprised if the code reader could outperform a decent CW man. And to be a decent CW man, you have to spend the time copying CW without an electronic assist such as a code reader. I would say pass on the CW Reader. The only REAL use I see for it is hooking it up for demos to non-hams so they know what is going on. Otherwise, I just don't see it. I'm voting with the First Mate on this one. I really don't see it for code practice either. Listen as much as you can to good code and try to emulate it. Code is AURAL, not visual. Not sure why you want to see what you're sending. You already KNOW what you're sending. Just listen to it and learn the music and rhythm of CW. Because I started on a straight key 48 years ago, I would say learn on a straight key. I think it helps develop essential timing, but I'm not so sure any more that it matters all that much how you learn it. A good keyer takes care of the timing for you as long as you resist screwing with the weighting to customize your fist. And your ear will pick up good timing from constantly comparing yourself to good (and bad) CW. But there is nothing more satisfying than a straight key to me. I always use a straight key with my Rock-Mites. It just doesn't seem right to use a paddle/keyer with simple rigs. Most of the time I use a straight key with my K1, particularly when backpacking or daypacking because it is more rugged and holds adjustment better in adverse conditions than a paddle. I can sit in a canvas chair with the key in one hand and tap out Morse code with the other. Life does get better than that, but not often. At home I always use the internal keyer in the K2. Not sure why. The skills are slightly different. Once you have one (straight key or paddle/keyer) it really isn't all that difficult to go to the other. And you'll automatically adjust going back and forth with time. I wouldn't agonize over the decision too much. Whatever strikes your fancy now will serve you in the end. It's great to see a new ham already looking forward to CW. Somewhere I saw a slogan, Without CW, it's just CB. Welcome aboard. Eric KE6US -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 12:56 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles? Comrades, I'm working on my code to get my licenses soon. I will want to do CW with the k2 I will buy and build on board our trawler. 1st mate and CFO watches expenses like a hawk and will catch me if I (gasp) buy two things which appear to do same thing. You can't hide much from her on the 36 boat we live on. I intend to get the $80 MFJ code reader because some of you have convinced me that it is a good detector of unreadable output. I'm hoping to get my speed and accuracy up by sending to the MFJ. If I ultimately intend to use paddles as most of you appear to be doing, why is it a bad idea simply to start with a set? I can understand that what I'm really wanting to do is to train my fist and ears, but it looks like paddles involve somewhat different monkey motions and maybe it would make more sense just to buy a set and get on with it. comments? regards, John Ferguson - M/V Arcadian (now in Norfolk,VA waiting for wave amplitude reduction in Chesapeake Bay before continuing northward) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
A straight key is versatile, but you ask a great question. You are learning two different motions. I learned on a straight key in 1951 because almost everyone used a straight key then. Also, one had to take a sending test in front of an FCC examiner in the local FCC office. Keyers were new technology, filled with tubes, in the hands of only a few operators. Bugs, mechanical semi-automatic keys, were very common among the more experienced operators. Still, few, if any, were used or allowed in tests. Everyone used the straight key on the FCC's test desk. Learning on a straight key was therefore crucial to getting a license! I allowed myself to learn to use a bug after I got my General Class license, but I kept my hand in on a straight key and passed my 20 wpm Extra Class Amateur and my Commercial RadioTelegraph license tests using a straight key. Nowadays, I doubt if there's much to lose learning on a modern keyer. It's certainly easier to send good clean CW with a key compared to either a straight key or bug, but it still requires practice. Keyers are so common that it's not often you are without one! However, and this is important, there are variations in the timing from one keyer to another, particularly if you learn Iambic or squeeze keying that can be maddening to change. I built a keyer in the 1970's that I kept and used whenever I used a keyer until I got my K2. It's a Mode A Iambic keyer, and I found the squeeze keying features wonderful. I'd not hesitate to tell someone to learn on such a keyer unless they have some association with wanting to use a straight key. I never use a keyer any more. I use a straight key and bug at all times. I do that because of the challenge. It's a lot harder to send clean code on a straight key or a bug and I don't want to lose that ability to the automatic timing provided by a keyer. So some years ago I set my Accu-keyer aside and haven't touched it or the Elecraft keyer logic since. This is a hobby. We do things because they interest us, not because they are easy. If you want to learn to send good code, do *not* use a decoder that can decode bad code!! You want a decoder that falls into gibberish unless the code is perfect! I use CW GET to practice on my bug. That program is devilishly critical! But when I see row after row of perfect copy, I know my fist is under control. After half a century I still practice regularly, usually sending a page out of a phone book - addresses, phone numbers and all. If I can do a page of that without a fluff, I'm a happy fellow! One nice thing about a keyer that began with bugs is that they are less tiring. That's why bugs became popular. Not really for more speed, but so commercial operators could pound out messages hour after hour without getting a glass arm - what we'd call tendonitis or carpel tunnel syndrome today. The majority of commercial operators on bugs hummed along at 15 wpm or so, tops. Some commercial services even welded the speed-regulating weights in place on the keys so operators wouldn't be temped to speed up. Faster CW doesn't mean faster message rates if fills are needed. Keyers provide that same advantage, along with the ability to send faster than most people can on a straight key if QRQ is your thing. You mention a boat. One thing about modern keyers is that they are quieter. Will the first mate/CFO be working or bunking nearby while you're operating? The clack-clack of a straight key can be downright disturbing. Bugs aren't that much quieter either, but there's no reason for anything but a whisper of sound from paddles. Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comrades, I'm working on my code to get my licenses soon. I will want to do CW with the k2 I will buy and build on board our trawler. 1st mate and CFO watches expenses like a hawk and will catch me if I (gasp) buy two things which appear to do same thing. You can't hide much from her on the 36 boat we live on. Once again, we see the wisdom of lifepartnering with someone with compatible interests (not to mention separate finances). Mine (NG3P) wanted in so bad after we went on a picnic with K2 #1641 yesterday that she's now building the KSB2. If I ultimately intend to use paddles as most of you appear to be doing, why is it a bad idea simply to start with a set? While I'm still working on getting my own speed up, I suspect that the keyer vs. straight key argument is a bit of a red herring. The important/central/difficult thing is building receive skills, and once you have that rhythm down I can't see the keying method making much difference...except that a keyer might make it possible for someone to try to send much faster than he's able to send well. Or recieve, for that matter. Those who hew to the no pain no gain school of thought will insist you start with a straight key because it will improve your character. But if the thought of starting out wrong worries you, and having both a straight key and paddles is an issue, get paddles, set the menu INP HAND and send straight key with one paddle. I hope your CFOs anti-redundancy policy doesn't apply to other parts of your ship's gear. Life jackets, oars, rudders, etc. :-) 73 de Maggie K3XS -- -/___. _)Margaret Stephanie Leber CCP, SCJP/The art of progress / /(, /| /| http://voicenet.com/~maggie SCWCD/ is to preserve order/ ---/ / | / | _ _ _` _ AOPA 925383/ amid change and to / --/ ) / |/ |_(_(_(_/_(_/__(__(/_ K3XS / preserve change amid/ -/ (_/ '.-/ .-/ARRL 39280 /order.-A.N.Whitehead/ /(_/_(_/___AMSAT 32844_/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Fwd: Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles?]
John Young wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Comrades,
I'm working on my code to get my licenses soon.
{snip}
John
I am sure everyone will have an opinion and they will all be
different. So here goes mine along with some background.
In the early 70's I had and instrutograph (sp) that used paper tape
to send code at any speed you set the motor drive to. Much like the
computer generated code practice today.
I made an offer to make code tapes for anyone that sent me a
cassette. A high school student call and I became an Elmer via
telephone. After several months of learning the code from the tapes I
met him in person and gave him the novice code test which he passed
with a perfect copy. I was not required to test his sending but I had
a CPO and key with me and had him try sending for his very first time.
What he sent sounded like it was machine sent. It was the only
code he had ever heard. He passed his novice, upgraded and kept his
first call for over 30 years. He also started with QRP and has stayed
with it.
My point is don't buy any key until you know the code and can copy
with out effort at over 10 wpm. Only then buy the paddles and keyer.
There are far too many people who think the know the code who should
be forced to copy their own sending.
That young man was WB6JBM who was a founder of the Flying Pigs QRP
Club.
73
John
WA8KNE
I can not imagine any better advice! I wish I would have had John for
an Elmer 48 years ago!
73 HankK8DD
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