Re: [Elecraft] (OT) - portable radial idea?

[Don Wilhelm]

Stan,

It can be made to work, but will be a real "bear" to adjust to resonance 
unless you separate the ends.


If you are feeding with 300 ohm twinlead, why not make a 66 foot long 
center fed dipole out of it.


Alternately if this is for portable work, us no feedline at all - just a 
BNC to binding post adapter at the KX3.  A 58 foot wire connected to the 
red post and supported by your crappie pole.  Add a 16 foot "Radial" to 
the black terminal and string it out on the ground.  The KX3 ATU will 
handle it on 40 through 10 meters.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/10/2017 7:14 PM, stan levandowski wrote:

I found the plans (June 2010 Elecraft Reflector) to build a 40/30/20
meter "linear loaded" portable antenna for my KX1 (using a crappie rod,
300 ohm twinlead for the radiator, a BL2 balun, and ribbon cable radials
cut to 1/4 wavelength for each of the bands (16, 25 and 33 feet).

My question is how terrible would it be to use a piece of that thin
computer ribbon cable cut to the three lengths but NOT separated?  This
would make it easier to deploy and roll back up.


Has anyone ever tried using unseparated ribbon cable counterpoises?  The
materials are on order and I'm sort of anxious to know.


Obviously, this is a compromise antenna and I'm shooting to design a
package for maximum installation speed vs. maximum efficiency.


Thanks, Stan WB2LQF
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Re: [Elecraft] (OT) - portable radial idea?

[Don Wilhelm]

Stan,

It can be made to work, but will be a real "bear" to adjust to resonance 
unless you separate the ends.


If you are feeding with 300 ohm twinlead, why not make a 66 foot long 
center fed dipole out of it.


Alternately if this is for portable work, us no feedline at all - just a 
BNC to binding post adapter at the KX1. Use 2 lengths of wire as is 
shown on page 10 of the KXAT1 manual.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/10/2017 7:14 PM, stan levandowski wrote:

I found the plans (June 2010 Elecraft Reflector) to build a 40/30/20
meter "linear loaded" portable antenna for my KX1 (using a crappie rod,
300 ohm twinlead for the radiator, a BL2 balun, and ribbon cable radials
cut to 1/4 wavelength for each of the bands (16, 25 and 33 feet).

My question is how terrible would it be to use a piece of that thin
computer ribbon cable cut to the three lengths but NOT separated?  This
would make it easier to deploy and roll back up.

Has anyone ever tried using unseparated ribbon cable counterpoises?  The
materials are on order and I'm sort of anxious to know.

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Re: [Elecraft] (OT) - portable radial idea?

[stan levandowski]

Hi Don and thanks for the suggestions. Yes, I already have a 67 foot 
doublet fed with window line as well as  simple wires and counterpoises 
in line with page 10 of the KXAT1 manual.  They work just fine.  No 
argument there.



But I stumbled upon this "linear loaded" vertical antenna and thought I 
might try it. It's is a 20 foot piece of 300 ohm TV line with the 
conductors twisted and soldered together at the top and taped to a 
twenty foot crappie pole.  At the bottom, for working 20 and 30 meters, 
both of the conductors are connected to the red BNC terminal on the KX1 
making the the radiator just a "fat" 20 foot wire.  For working 40 
meters the bottom conductors are separated and one goes to the red BNC 
terminal and the other just hangs loose making it a 40 foot antenna. 
 The write-up I found states, "On 40m the folded wire creates a linear 
loading effect due to the capacitive coupling between the two wires 
(note that currents are not equal and opposite so there is no 
cancellation of signal as you might initially think). This added 
capacitance allows the wire to be resonated on 40m by the internal tuner 
in  the K1, KX1 or also by the Elecraft T1." The fellow who offered this 
antenna idea said that he had been using it successfully for quite 
awhile.



Adding the BL2 is my idea because it will be part of the solution for 
making the bottom connections.  My intent is to come up with a "decent" 
portable antenna that I can erect anywhere in just one minute.  I want 
to come up with some creative way to make all the pieces work together 
effortlessly, rapidly and reliably, including dealing with the crappie 
pole.   My dream is to drop the crappie pole into a homemade holder on 
my camp chair, push up the pole with the antenna following, walk the 
roll of ribbon cable out in a straight line, go back to the chair, sit 
down, turn on the KX1 and start operating!  It's my springtime 
project



I ordered a 100 foot role of ribbon cable so I can do a little 
experimenting with opening up the ends.



On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 09:44 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:


Stan,

It can be made to work, but will be a real "bear" to adjust to 
resonance unless you separate the ends.


If you are feeding with 300 ohm twinlead, why not make a 66 foot long 
center fed dipole out of it.


Alternately if this is for portable work, us no feedline at all - just 
a BNC to binding post adapter at the KX1. Use 2 lengths of wire as is 
shown on page 10 of the KXAT1 manual.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/10/2017 7:14 PM, stan levandowski wrote:

I found the plans (June 2010 Elecraft Reflector) to build a 40/30/20
meter "linear loaded" portable antenna for my KX1 (using a crappie 
rod,
300 ohm twinlead for the radiator, a BL2 balun, and ribbon cable 
radials

cut to 1/4 wavelength for each of the bands (16, 25 and 33 feet).

My question is how terrible would it be to use a piece of that thin
computer ribbon cable cut to the three lengths but NOT separated? 
This

would make it easier to deploy and roll back up.

Has anyone ever tried using unseparated ribbon cable counterpoises? 
The

materials are on order and I'm sort of anxious to know.



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Re: [Elecraft] (OT) - portable radial idea?

[Dr. William J. Schmidt]

I have a Chinese version of a Budipole type vertical that uses exactly that... 
ribbon cable cut to various resonate  lengths for the elevated radials.  Four 
as I remember.  Works very well and quick to deploy and stow. 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com
 

> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:24 PM, stan levandowski  wrote:
> 
> Hi Don and thanks for the suggestions. Yes, I already have a 67 foot doublet 
> fed with window line as well as  simple wires and counterpoises in line with 
> page 10 of the KXAT1 manual.  They work just fine.  No argument there.
> 
> 
> But I stumbled upon this "linear loaded" vertical antenna and thought I might 
> try it. It's is a 20 foot piece of 300 ohm TV line with the conductors 
> twisted and soldered together at the top and taped to a twenty foot crappie 
> pole.  At the bottom, for working 20 and 30 meters, both of the conductors 
> are connected to the red BNC terminal on the KX1 making the the radiator just 
> a "fat" 20 foot wire.  For working 40 meters the bottom conductors are 
> separated and one goes to the red BNC terminal and the other just hangs loose 
> making it a 40 foot antenna.  The write-up I found states, "On 40m the folded 
> wire creates a linear loading effect due to the capacitive coupling between 
> the two wires (note that currents are not equal and opposite so there is no 
> cancellation of signal as you might initially think). This added capacitance 
> allows the wire to be resonated on 40m by the internal tuner in  the K1, KX1 
> or also by the Elecraft T1." The fellow who offered this antenna idea said 
> that he had been using it successfully for quite awhile.
> 
> 
> Adding the BL2 is my idea because it will be part of the solution for making 
> the bottom connections.  My intent is to come up with a "decent" portable 
> antenna that I can erect anywhere in just one minute.  I want to come up with 
> some creative way to make all the pieces work together effortlessly, rapidly 
> and reliably, including dealing with the crappie pole.   My dream is to drop 
> the crappie pole into a homemade holder on my camp chair, push up the pole 
> with the antenna following, walk the roll of ribbon cable out in a straight 
> line, go back to the chair, sit down, turn on the KX1 and start operating!  
> It's my springtime project
> 
> 
> I ordered a 100 foot role of ribbon cable so I can do a little experimenting 
> with opening up the ends.
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 09:44 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> 
>> Stan,
>> 
>> It can be made to work, but will be a real "bear" to adjust to resonance 
>> unless you separate the ends.
>> 
>> If you are feeding with 300 ohm twinlead, why Hi Don and thanks for the 
>> suggestions. Yes, I already have a 67 foot 
> doublet fed with window line as well as  simple wires and counterpoises in 
> line with page 10 of the KXAT1 manual.  They work just fine.  No argument 
> there.
> 
> 
> But I stumbled upon this "linear loaded" vertical antenna and thought I might 
> try it. It's is a 20 foot piece of 300 ohm TV line with the conductors 
> twisted and soldered together at the top and taped to a twenty foot crappie 
> pole.  At the bottom, for working 20 and 30 meters, both of the conductors 
> are connected to the red BNC terminal on the KX1 making the the radiator just 
> a "fat" 20 foot wire.  For working 40 meters the bottom conductors are 
> separated and one goes to the red BNC terminal and the other just hangs loose 
> making it a 40 foot antenna.  The write-up I found states, "On 40m the folded 
> wire creates a linear loading effect due to the capacitive coupling between 
> the two wires (note that currents are not equal and opposite so there is no 
> cancellation of signal as you might initially think). This added capacitance 
> allows the wire to be resonated on 40m by the internal tuner in  the K1, KX1 
> or also by the Elecraft T1." The fellow who offered this antenna idea said 
> that he had been using it successfully for quite awhile.
> 
> 
> Adding the BL2 is my idea because it will be part of the solution for making 
> the bottom connections.  My intent is to come up with a "decent" portable 
> antenna that I can erect anywhere in just one minute.  I want to come up with 
> some creative way to make all the pieces work together effortlessly, rapidly 
> and reliably, including dealing with the crappie pole.   My dream is to drop 
> the crappie pole into a homemade holder on my camp chair, push up the pole 
> with the antenna following, walk the roll of ribbon cable out in a straight 
> line, go back to the chair, sit down, turn on the KX1 and start operating!  
> It's my springtime project
> 
> 
> I ordered a 100 foot role of ribbon cable so I can do a little experimenting 
> with

Re: [Elecraft] (OT) - portable radial idea?

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Remember that the RF field flows *around* the conductor in addition to the
RF current *in* the conductor. Having wires of different lengths in close
proximity means that the RF field will tend to act as though the conductor
simply changes its thickness rather than being two conductors of different
lengths. 

The old "rule of thumb" in the ARRL books was to be sure the last "several
feet" of each wire is well separated from the others. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Don
Wilhelm
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 6:45 PM
To: stan levandowski; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] (OT) - portable radial idea?

Stan,

It can be made to work, but will be a real "bear" to adjust to resonance
unless you separate the ends.

If you are feeding with 300 ohm twinlead, why not make a 66 foot long center
fed dipole out of it.

Alternately if this is for portable work, us no feedline at all - just a BNC
to binding post adapter at the KX1. Use 2 lengths of wire as is shown on
page 10 of the KXAT1 manual.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/10/2017 7:14 PM, stan levandowski wrote:
> I found the plans (June 2010 Elecraft Reflector) to build a 40/30/20 
> meter "linear loaded" portable antenna for my KX1 (using a crappie 
> rod,
> 300 ohm twinlead for the radiator, a BL2 balun, and ribbon cable 
> radials cut to 1/4 wavelength for each of the bands (16, 25 and 33 feet).
>
> My question is how terrible would it be to use a piece of that thin 
> computer ribbon cable cut to the three lengths but NOT separated?  
> This would make it easier to deploy and roll back up.
>
> Has anyone ever tried using unseparated ribbon cable counterpoises?  
> The materials are on order and I'm sort of anxious to know.
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Re: [Elecraft] (OT) - portable radial idea?

[Michael Babineau]

Stan : 

Unless the “radials” are to be elevated a few feet above the ground there is 
really nothing to be gained by trying to cut them for resonance on each band.
If they are laid on the ground they will be detuned and the legnth will be all 
off anyway. 

The rule of thumb that I used is to make the radials at least an 1/8 wave for 
the lowest band, so in this case it would 16 feet long.  

I take a 20 foot length of computer ribbon cable (5 or 6 wire) and unzip it for 
all but the
last 4 feet. Then on the unzipped end I strip and tin each of the wires and 
then attach them all to a banana plug. Having the last few feet of 
cable still zipped makes routing the “radials” away from the rig and off of a 
picnic table much more convenient.  To make  storage and re-deployment
simpler I pull the loose ends of the wires parallel and then I attach an IKEA 
bag clip on the end then I can roll the whole thing up, tie it with a 
velcro tie and put it into a zip-top sandwich bag. . It keeps the wires from 
getting tangled. 

Why 5 radials ??? I have found from experience that 5 or 6 is about the limit 
of my patience for deployment.  I have a few sets so if I am not in a rush
I can use more.  This is easy to do with a Pomona banana jack to BNC adaptor as 
both the red and black terminals will each accept two banana plugs.

Cheers

Michael VE3WMB 

>From: stan levandowski mailto:sjl...@optonline.net>>
>Subject: [Elecraft] (OT) - portable radial idea?
>Date: March 10, 2017 at 7:14:50 PM GMT-5
>To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 


>I found the plans (June 2010 Elecraft Reflector) to build a 40/30/20 meter 
>"linear loaded" portable antenna for my KX1 (using a crappie rod, 300 ohm 
>twinlead for the radiator, a BL2 balun, and ribbon cable radials cut to 1/4 
>wavelength for >each of the bands (16, 25 and 33 feet).

>My question is how terrible would it be to use a piece of that thin computer 
>ribbon cable cut to the three lengths but NOT separated?  This would make it 
>easier to deploy and roll back up.


>Has anyone ever tried using unseparated ribbon cable counterpoises?  The 
>materials are on order and I'm sort of anxious to know.


>Obviously, this is a compromise antenna and I'm shooting to design a package 
>for maximum installation speed vs. maximum efficiency.


>Thanks, Stan WB2LQF
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