Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Steve]

Well, yes...  {less powerful engine} After the late 60's the rules were 
changed to require all cars to operate under the same limits. NO more 
turbine cars... (for a $6 ball bearing...)

steve WB3LGC

On 21-Jul-14 1:34 AM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
Or, when they're patting your face with a shovel saying, "I wish I'd 
spent more time working QRP."


On 7/20/2014 12:36 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
  Do they say: "I wish I had a less powerful engine to make it a 
more challenging race."?






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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Steve]

I think some where my original question go lost.  Can the K3 operate key 
down at 100W's.

I did get an answer, yes - 120w for 24hr's...  So the answer is yes.

I complicated things by adding JT65 and that I operate at 0.5 to 2 watts 
with my KX3, but up to 20w with an IC-706.  Yes, if I am -25db at 0.5 
watts, I can/should up the power so the "guy" at the other end can hear 
me better.  Yes, it IS weak signal not low power...


The NAQP contest this past weekend was fun (I used the O2).
It has been a few years since I got the chance to operate a digital mode 
contest.
The great receiver in the O2 did fine and is why I would only think of 
replacing the O2 with a K3.


everyone have a great day!
steve WB3LGC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Jim Brown]

On 7/21/2014 9:51 AM, Lyle Johnson wrote:
The PA (KX3 or KXPA100) operates directly off the supply power and 
current is proportional to power level and drive, but not supply voltage. 


Thanks, Lyle. The additional question I was asking here is if the 
KXPA100 pull proportionally less current from a 14.8V supply to achieve 
the same output power than from an 11.1V supply?  (The difference is one 
less cell in the Li-Ion pack.) The calculation I'm getting at here is 
for a given pack weight, do 11.1V or 14.8V packs give me the most power 
out per pound?


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Paul Gordon N6LL]

Very FB, Wes, and it has the requisite two meters: plate current and 
grid current.

73, Paul N6LL
On 7/21/2014 9:38 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 7/20/2014 10:42 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:

Sounds good to me. http://sadxa.org/n7ws.html#amp


Beautiful work, Wes

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Lyle Johnson]

Two answers below.

73,

Lyle KK7P

1) Can the KXPA100 and KX3 tolerate the higher voltages of a fully 
charged 14.8V battery pack? (In the range of 16V).


No.  The products are not guaranteed to FAIL if you apply 16 V, but they 
are not designed to operate from 16 V, either.


2) Do the KX3 or KX3 pull proportionally less current for the same 
power output from a 4-cell pack as compared to a 3-cell pack?


The KX3 low voltage supplies are primarily switching supplies, so 
current drain at a higher input voltage will be less than the current 
drain at low supply voltage.  The PA (KX3 or KXPA100) operates directly 
off the supply power and current is proportional to power level and 
drive, but not supply voltage.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Jim Brown]

On 7/20/2014 10:42 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:

Sounds good to me. http://sadxa.org/n7ws.html#amp


Beautiful work, Wes

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Jim Brown]

On 7/20/2014 10:32 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
Not if exchanging call signs takes 10 minutes instead of ten seconds. 


There are excellent reasons for QRP.

As chance would have it, I spent an hour or two today at the NCDXC club 
picnic chatting with AF6RT, who spent Friday and Saturday lighting up a 
very rare grid on 6M (CM79, I think) that involves lots of hiking over 
rough terrain carrying your gear, then making additional round trips to 
get more gear. The hike is on the order of 2-3 hours one way. He's not a 
CW op, and he said he ran down his batteries calling CQ.


The objective is to pass out this very rare grid (99.99% is water) to 
those pursuing the Fred Fish Award to work all grids in the US.


One of my suggestions was to encourage him to use JT9 (24dB of noise 
rejection referenced to a 2.8 kHz bandwidth) and a strategy where he 
announces (on the Ping Jockey JT65 chat) a JT9 window where the 
deserving will call him, and he will respond only to those who he hears. 
W7GJ/KH8 is successfully using this strategy on a moon-bounce expedition 
to American Samoa. I also suggested that he try to use the KX3 barefooot 
when the indicated S/N is better than about -10 dB, and use only enough 
amp to make the Q. The objective, of course, is to minimize current 
drain, and thus maximize operating time.


The WSJT-X software has a multii-decoder, and gives a readout of the S/N 
for each signal it copies. I also encouraged him to replace his K3 with 
a KX3 and KXPA100, because of the KX3's greatly reduced current drain on 
RX (250 mA as opposed to about 1A for a K3).


I'm looking at Li-Ion battery packs that we might pitch in and buy for 
him, and that raises a few questions for Wayne. I can find nice Li-Ion 
packs with 3 cells (11.1V nominal) or 4 cells (14.8V nominal).


1) Can the KXPA100 and KX3 tolerate the higher voltages of a fully 
charged 14.8V battery pack? (In the range of 16V).


2) Do the KX3 or KX3 pull proportionally less current for the same power 
output from a 4-cell pack as compared to a 3-cell pack?


3) I'm seeing some 20Ah packs rated for a max of 10A and 14A load 
current, with active protection to limit the current to those levels. 
How would the KXPA100 react to that, if he wanted to run 40-50W?


4) Where can we access a graph of KXPA100 load current vs. 6M power out, 
not considering tolerances from one piece to another?


5) Am I correct that a KX3 does not benefit from an outboard preamp in 
this application?  That is, a very quiet QTH, he's current starved, the 
guys who want to work him have power and big antennas (but probably more 
RX noise), and he's got to fight for every dB.


Weight for a K3 as compared to a KX3 + KXPA100 is about equal, 
especially when interconnect cables are taken into account. The 
advantage is current drain, and is a big deal if 90% of your time is RX.


He's already carrying a very nice M-Squared antenna and mast to hold it, 
and LMR-400 to feed it.


Those reading the mail should appreciate this as a very practical 
engineering problem. :)


We don't need fast response on this -- thanks to work commitments, his 
next window of opportunity is Memorial Day 2015. :)


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Wes (N7WS)]

Sounds good to me. http://sadxa.org/n7ws.html#amp




On 7/20/2014 2:09 PM, Bill Turner wrote:

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:  (may be snipped)

On 7/20/2014 12:36 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
The software provides about 10-dB better SNR (making the 10w JT65 signal 
equivalent to 100w CW). 


REPLY:

I find an 8877 provides about 22 dB SNR over ten watts. :-)

73, Bill W6WRT

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Wes (N7WS)]

Or, when they're patting your face with a shovel saying, "I wish I'd spent more 
time working QRP."


On 7/20/2014 12:36 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down
Message-ID: <011e01cfa426$5fba6f80$1f2f4e80$@wjschmidt.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

Have you ever listened to the interviews of the Indy car drivers after a
race?  Do they say: "I wish I had a less powerful engine to make it a more
challenging race."?


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Wes (N7WS)]

Not if exchanging call signs takes 10 minutes instead of ten seconds.


On 7/20/2014 8:57 AM, Milverton M. Swire via Elecraft wrote:

which can actually *lower* the total QRM

level. <<<


And! here all along, I thought " LESS Power, LESS QRM"!!!


Oh well!


73  MILVERTON /W9MMS



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Brian Alsop]

I'm not a QRP fan for DX.  However, one can definitely copy a weaker 
signal with JT65.  No matter how much power you have, you can't work 
them if you can't copy them.  It seems like the magic combo is 1500 W 
and JT65 on both ends.  I think guys are resorting to this on 160M to 
try and squeeze out a new one or two.


The five minutes or so per QSO is a bummer though.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 7/20/2014 21:09, Bill Turner wrote:

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:  (may be snipped)

On 7/20/2014 12:36 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:

The software provides about 10-dB better SNR (making the 10w JT65
signal equivalent to 100w CW).


REPLY:

I find an 8877 provides about 22 dB SNR over ten watts. :-)

73, Bill W6WRT

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Bill Turner]

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:  (may be snipped)

On 7/20/2014 12:36 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
The software provides about 10-dB better SNR (making the 10w JT65 
signal equivalent to 100w CW). 


REPLY:

I find an 8877 provides about 22 dB SNR over ten watts. :-)

73, Bill W6WRT

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Edward R Cole]

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down
Message-ID: <011e01cfa426$5fba6f80$1f2f4e80$@wjschmidt.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

Have you ever listened to the interviews of the Indy car drivers after a
race?  Do they say: "I wish I had a less powerful engine to make it a more
challenging race."?

I'm on the DX end a lot these days, and I always find myself stopping a
pileup to ask if there are any 10 watt or less stations calling.  The
response I get is usually three QRP stations responding (which I eventually
work after 10 minutes of additional instruction to much louder stations)
buried by 100's of QRO stations with massive antenna arrays.

Tough to win!


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ/ PJ4HZ/ VP5HZ

Wow has this topic morphed...I was only following it casually, but it 
"was" (I think) about what power level is "safe" to run on the K3 
with "key-down" modes like JT65.  RTTY is pretty hard on the 
transmitter, as well.  FM would be the hardest as  it is usually 
accompanied by marathon talk-a-thons (note most VHF-FM radios are 
equipped with time-out-timers set to a max of 3-minutes).  JT65 runs 
about 50-seconds in Tx and then rests for about 70-seconds in Rx 
(2-minute TX/RX cycle).  The K3/10 seems to be happy at 8w running 
JT65 on 6m (I have not run JT65 on HF).  Psk-31 runs well at 12w with 
my K3/10 with no apparent heating issue.  Note: I have a 300w sspa 
that runs 275w on HF with 12w drive when I need more for SSB.


I suspect all you have switched to talking about normal CW/SSB ham 
radio - they do not compare to JT65, JT9, etc.  These are superior 
"weak-signal" modes designed for when signals are too weak to copy 
using CW.  The software provides about 10-dB better SNR (making the 
10w JT65 signal equivalent to 100w CW).


On HF, SNR requirements are very much lower than the usual RF level 
used by hams.  Evidence:  look at the QRP-SSB check-in's that are 
quite satisfactory on the Sunday Elecraft Net.  I checked in this 
morning with 12w with my K3/10 "barefoot" and was heard on the first 
call by Phil.  Yes, I run an old triband beam at 50-feet which helps.


My s-meter report would be about 2-units higher if I ran 100w, but 
that was not necessary for the communications link.  Working 
contests/DX, is a different "animal" as you are dealing with QRM and 
not specifically weak signals. How many of you are using JT65 for 
contesting or Dx'ing?  You can, you know!  (probably too slow for you)


I just finished operating the Dubus Magazine 2-meter digital EME 
Contest where I ran JT65B with 1000w and four ten-element 
yagis.  Yes, it was weak-signal and I did run QRO.  I have run as 
little as 150w on 2m-eme successfully by using JT65, but it is more 
difficult to make contacts and not particularly a good idea in a 
contest.  Minimum time to complete a valid JT65 eme contact is 
5-minutes if you have a good to great signal.  Running 150w would 
probably extend the time required by a considerable amount - not 
desirable in a contest.


PS, Dr. Schmidt:  I am not picking on you, just happened to decide to 
comment at your post! ;-)
Oh and how many folks drive an indy car to the market?  Different 
needs require different means.


Note: I began 2m digital-eme in 2003 using JT44 precursor to JT65, so 
have a few years experience in its use.



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Milverton M. Swire via Elecraft]

>>> which can actually *lower* the total QRM 
level. <<< 


And! here all along, I thought " LESS Power, LESS QRM"!!! 


Oh well! 


73  MILVERTON /W9MMS



On Sunday, July 20, 2014 9:31 AM, "Dr. William J. Schmidt, II" 
 wrote:
 

>
>
>Have you ever listened to the interviews of the Indy car drivers after a
>race?  Do they say: "I wish I had a less powerful engine to make it a more
>challenging race."?
>
>I'm on the DX end a lot these days, and I always find myself stopping a
>pileup to ask if there are any 10 watt or less stations calling.  The
>response I get is usually three QRP stations responding (which I eventually
>work after 10 minutes of additional instruction to much louder stations)
>buried by 100's of QRO stations with massive antenna arrays.
>
>Tough to win!
>
>
>Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ/ PJ4HZ/ VP5HZ
>
>Owner - Operator
>Big Signal Ranch - NA-QRO Club
>Staunton, Illinois
>
>email:  b...@wjschmidt.com
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes
>(N7WS)
>Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2014 9:05 AM
>To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down
>
>The problem with this is, if everyone else is as misguided, then they are 
>transmitting with ten watts too. So their signals are 10 to 20+ dB weaker
>than 
>with higher power, hence there are fewer stations to work, ie. less DX.
>
>Furthermore, with more power, faster modes of communicating are possible.
>More 
>stations can make QSOs in a given time, which can actually *lower* the total
>QRM 
>level.
>
>Of course, all of this is from a DXer's perspective.  If watching paint dry
>is 
>your thing then stick with QRP.
>
>Wes  N7WS
>
>
>
>
>On 7/19/2014 8:07 PM, Bill Turner wrote:
>> ORIGINAL MESSAGE:          (may be snipped)
>>
>> On 7/19/2014 5:44 PM, Gerald Manthey wrote:
>>>   and I work the world on 10 watts.
>>
>> REPLY:
>>
>> I encourage the Geralds of the world to continue with their ten watts.
>>
>> Makes DXing easier for the rest of us. :-)
>>
>> 73, Bill W6WRT
>
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>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Dr. William J. Schmidt, II]

Have you ever listened to the interviews of the Indy car drivers after a
race?  Do they say: "I wish I had a less powerful engine to make it a more
challenging race."?

I'm on the DX end a lot these days, and I always find myself stopping a
pileup to ask if there are any 10 watt or less stations calling.  The
response I get is usually three QRP stations responding (which I eventually
work after 10 minutes of additional instruction to much louder stations)
buried by 100's of QRO stations with massive antenna arrays.

Tough to win!


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ/ PJ4HZ/ VP5HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch - NA-QRO Club
Staunton, Illinois
 
email:  b...@wjschmidt.com

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes
(N7WS)
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2014 9:05 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

The problem with this is, if everyone else is as misguided, then they are 
transmitting with ten watts too. So their signals are 10 to 20+ dB weaker
than 
with higher power, hence there are fewer stations to work, ie. less DX.

Furthermore, with more power, faster modes of communicating are possible.
More 
stations can make QSOs in a given time, which can actually *lower* the total
QRM 
level.

Of course, all of this is from a DXer's perspective.  If watching paint dry
is 
your thing then stick with QRP.

Wes  N7WS




On 7/19/2014 8:07 PM, Bill Turner wrote:
> ORIGINAL MESSAGE:  (may be snipped)
>
> On 7/19/2014 5:44 PM, Gerald Manthey wrote:
>>   and I work the world on 10 watts.
>
> REPLY:
>
> I encourage the Geralds of the world to continue with their ten watts.
>
> Makes DXing easier for the rest of us. :-)
>
> 73, Bill W6WRT

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Wes (N7WS)]

The problem with this is, if everyone else is as misguided, then they are 
transmitting with ten watts too. So their signals are 10 to 20+ dB weaker than 
with higher power, hence there are fewer stations to work, ie. less DX.


Furthermore, with more power, faster modes of communicating are possible.  More 
stations can make QSOs in a given time, which can actually *lower* the total QRM 
level.


Of course, all of this is from a DXer's perspective.  If watching paint dry is 
your thing then stick with QRP.


Wes  N7WS




On 7/19/2014 8:07 PM, Bill Turner wrote:

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:  (may be snipped)

On 7/19/2014 5:44 PM, Gerald Manthey wrote:

  and I work the world on 10 watts.


REPLY:

I encourage the Geralds of the world to continue with their ten watts.

Makes DXing easier for the rest of us. :-)

73, Bill W6WRT


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Bill Turner]

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:  (may be snipped)

On 7/19/2014 5:44 PM, Gerald Manthey wrote:

  and I work the world on 10 watts.


REPLY:

I encourage the Geralds of the world to continue with their ten watts.

Makes DXing easier for the rest of us. :-)

73, Bill W6WRT

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Gerald Manthey]

Yes I guess I was not totally informed. I took the suggestions from the
book and translated it to mean low power.
I read the user guide for jt65hf and it said in part " Running at full
output power is
seldom necessary or desirable due
to the incredible sensitivity of JT65.
Most users find 5 to 10 watts (or less) highly effective and 25 to 30 watts
is considered 'high power'.
Now 6 meter and vhf, uhf I can see high power.
I have a ZS6BKW inv vee at 40 and I work the world on 10 watts.

Thanks
Gerald - KC6CNN
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Jim Brown]

On 7/19/2014 2:27 PM, Gerald Manthey wrote:

Just how many people are running high power on low power modes like jt65?

I work the world with 10 watts.


You are misinformed. JT65 is NOT a LOW POWER mode, it is a WEAK SIGNAL 
mode. BIG difference. Caps added for emphasis. On VHF/UHF, it is quite 
common to run as much power as you can to work moonbounce, or double hop 
E-skip when the band is only marginal, or tropo. Right now, KH8/W7GJ is 
on a rare island in the Pacific working moonbounce, and both he and the 
stations working him are running big antennas and big power. I run my 
KPA500 on 6M for all modes, including JT65.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Josh Fiden]

I thought it was "weak signal" mode, not "low power" mode.

I don't think the XYL would permit an array large enough to work 6m EME 
with 10W... everyone has a dream!


73,
Josh W6XU

On 7/19/2014 2:27 PM, Gerald Manthey wrote:

Just how many people are running high power on low power modes like jt65?

I work the world with 10 watts.

Gerald - KC6CNN


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Phil Wheeler]

I don't use that mode and generally run no more 
than 40 watts on PSK31 with the K3.


But this statement below "The K3/100 has two fans. 
The KX3 has no fans. Apples and oranges." made me 
wonder if fan failure could be an issue with the 
K3/100 -- and one which might affect those running 
less than 100 Watts.


Phil W7OX

On 7/19/14, 2:27 PM, Gerald Manthey wrote:


Just how many people are running high power on 
low power modes like jt65?


I work the world with 10 watts.

Gerald - KC6CNN

On Jul 19, 2014 10:48 AM, "Phil Wheeler" 
mailto:w...@socal.rr.com>> 
wrote:


Hmm .. makes me wonder if a failed fan would
result in an error message and/or graceful
power roll off to protect the K3?

I have so much ringing in my deaf ear I
never hear the fans!

Phil W7OX

On 7/19/14, 6:51 AM, Mike K2MK wrote:

Hi Steve,

The K3/100 has two fans. The KX3 has no
fans. Apples and oranges.

I ran my K3 on 30 meters RTTY at 100
watts for 2 hours non-stop as an ARRL
centennial station and had no problem.
The fan just ramps up to a higher
speed.

I've also run JT65-HF on 6 meters at 100
watts with no visible problem but
of course it's one minute on, one minute
off.

73,
Mike K2MK



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Gerald Manthey]

Just how many people are running high power on low power modes like jt65?

I work the world with 10 watts.

Gerald - KC6CNN
 On Jul 19, 2014 10:48 AM, "Phil Wheeler"  wrote:

> Hmm .. makes me wonder if a failed fan would result in an error message
> and/or graceful power roll off to protect the K3?
>
> I have so much ringing in my deaf ear I never hear the fans!
>
> Phil W7OX
>
> On 7/19/14, 6:51 AM, Mike K2MK wrote:
>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> The K3/100 has two fans. The KX3 has no fans. Apples and oranges.
>>
>> I ran my K3 on 30 meters RTTY at 100 watts for 2 hours non-stop as an ARRL
>> centennial station and had no problem. The fan just ramps up to a higher
>> speed.
>>
>> I've also run JT65-HF on 6 meters at 100 watts with no visible problem but
>> of course it's one minute on, one minute off.
>>
>> 73,
>> Mike K2MK
>>
>>
>> Stephen M. Shearer wrote
>>
>>> I am thinking about replacing my ORION II with a K3 as it is smaller
>>> (much smaller).
>>> My OII will do RTTY (or JT65) at 100 Watts (with the fan option).
>>> What will the K3 do? (I know it has fans, too)
>>> I hear lots of comments about digital power out for the KX3 and
>>> heatsinks...
>>> I guess the question also goes for the 500 Watt amp, what will it do key
>>> down?
>>>
>>> btw, 0.5w JT65 is great fun with my KX3...  but I also like to contest
>>> at 100w.
>>>
>>> 73, Steve WB3LGC (hope to see you on the RTTY NAQP tomorrow)
>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Phil Wheeler]

Hmm .. makes me wonder if a failed fan would 
result in an error message and/or graceful power 
roll off to protect the K3?


I have so much ringing in my deaf ear I never hear 
the fans!


Phil W7OX

On 7/19/14, 6:51 AM, Mike K2MK wrote:

Hi Steve,

The K3/100 has two fans. The KX3 has no fans. Apples and oranges.

I ran my K3 on 30 meters RTTY at 100 watts for 2 hours non-stop as an ARRL
centennial station and had no problem. The fan just ramps up to a higher
speed.

I've also run JT65-HF on 6 meters at 100 watts with no visible problem but
of course it's one minute on, one minute off.

73,
Mike K2MK


Stephen M. Shearer wrote

I am thinking about replacing my ORION II with a K3 as it is smaller
(much smaller).
My OII will do RTTY (or JT65) at 100 Watts (with the fan option).
What will the K3 do? (I know it has fans, too)
I hear lots of comments about digital power out for the KX3 and
heatsinks...
I guess the question also goes for the 500 Watt amp, what will it do key
down?

btw, 0.5w JT65 is great fun with my KX3...  but I also like to contest
at 100w.

73, Steve WB3LGC (hope to see you on the RTTY NAQP tomorrow)




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Mike K2MK]

Hi Steve,

The K3/100 has two fans. The KX3 has no fans. Apples and oranges.

I ran my K3 on 30 meters RTTY at 100 watts for 2 hours non-stop as an ARRL
centennial station and had no problem. The fan just ramps up to a higher
speed.

I've also run JT65-HF on 6 meters at 100 watts with no visible problem but
of course it's one minute on, one minute off.

73,
Mike K2MK


Stephen M. Shearer wrote
> I am thinking about replacing my ORION II with a K3 as it is smaller 
> (much smaller).
> My OII will do RTTY (or JT65) at 100 Watts (with the fan option).
> What will the K3 do? (I know it has fans, too)
> I hear lots of comments about digital power out for the KX3 and
> heatsinks...
> I guess the question also goes for the 500 Watt amp, what will it do key 
> down?
> 
> btw, 0.5w JT65 is great fun with my KX3...  but I also like to contest 
> at 100w.
> 
> 73, Steve WB3LGC (hope to see you on the RTTY NAQP tomorrow)





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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Josh Fiden]

It takes 80W drive to get my amp to full output. I've run my K3 
continuously for hours at a time at that level on JT65. No issues at all 
and never even noticed it getting hot.


73,
Josh W6XU

On 7/18/2014 5:04 PM, Steve wrote:

No, I wouldn't run 100W on JT65.


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out - key down

[Steve]

Thanks,  You didn't use a brick?
I expected the K3 to handle 100W as there were no comments that I remember.
With your comments it doesn't matter how the 500W amp would work as I 
doubt if I would want to run more than 100W, either.


I also have a IC-706 "100W" rig but it will only handle ~40W RTTY.
No, I wouldn't run 100W on JT65.  The most I ever used with any rig has 
been 20W on the ic-706.



steve
On 18-Jul-14 7:51 PM, John King wrote:

Hello Steve,

When I built my K3 in April 2008 I wondered the same thing. I hooked it up
to a Bird and a dummy load, set it up for 120W output (the K3 firmware
allowed 120 Watts back in those days) on 7 MHz, engaged the shorting bar on
my J-38 and let it run for 24 hours. It was still going strong at 120W
measured output at the end of 24 hours. The rig has been through 7 FD's
since then running CW for 24 hours straight. It just keeps on ticking. I
think you'll be OK on RTTY.

73,
   John  WA1ABI




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out issue

[Mike K2MK]

Hi Bruce,

The most common cause of this problem is the TX calibration which you have
performed. Since that didn't do the trick you should touch up the results of
the calibration using the instructions at the top of the K3 manual page 62
(CONFIG:TXGN). You only need to do this on those bands that are a problem.

73,
Mike K2MK


Bruce Meier-2 wrote
> Update – 
> 
> Not sure how I missed this, but I just determined that this ONLY happens
> when NOT in SPLIT mode.   And – it happens on BOTH K3s.  I had my other K3
> in split and did not notice it.  I can reproduce the same symptom on both
> K3s when NOT in split but -  when in split – both are fine.  Doesn’t
> matter
> what band nor does it matter if VFO A and B are on the same or different
> frequencies.
> 
> When NOT in SPLIT the output power overshoots for the first 3 dahs every
> time the power level is changed either up or down.
> 
> Bruce – N1LN
> 
>  
> From: Bruce Meier [mailto:

> bemeier@

> ] 
> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 20:06
> To: '

> elecraft@.qth

> '
> Subject: K3 power out issue
> 
> I just noticed that one of my K3s seems to have a power out issue.
> Specifically, when keying for the first time, the output power seems to be
> overshooting what it is set at.   If I continue to send CW at the same
> power
> it is fine.   If I decrease or increase the power the output overshoots
> what
> it is set at and them comes back down.  If I change bands, even without
> changing the power level, the power overshoots the power selected for the
> first few dahs.
> 
> How do I know this?  Well, the configuration is a K3/100 and an Acom
> 2000A.
> The Acom forward power LEDs overshoot the 1500 watt limit and then come
> back
> down.  It should take roughly 50w to drive the Acom to legal limit.
> However, if I set the power on the K3 to 45 the Acom reads 1600 and then
> drops to 1400 on the third dah.  If I set the K3 to 50 watts the Acom
> reads
> 1800 and then drops to 1500 on the third dah.   This suspect K3 used to
> have
> an Ameritron AL1500 connected to it so this issue could have been
> occurring
> for some time and I would not have known it.
> 
> So – you say – why do I suspect the K3?  Well, I have (2) K3/100s and (2)
> Acom 2000As and the ONLY time this happens is if either Acom is connected
> to
> the suspect K3.  The other K3 when connected to either Acom is just fine.
> The power reading on the Acom connected to the “good” K3 is as it should
> be
> – constant.  Additionally, the power output reading on the K3 RF power
> scale
> overshoots the selected power and then comes back down to the power
> selected.  It is just not as noticeable as the Acom RED Leds.
> 
> I went through all the memory settings on both K3s and they are identical.
> I did calibrations on both K3s at 5w and 50w and the problem stays with
> the
> suspect K3.  
> 
> Both K3s are at the following uCode levels:4.60 / d1 = 2.8 / d2 = 2.8
> /
> FL 1.15
> 
> Ø  Yes, I did a u-code reload
> 
> Both K3s have all the same updates installed
> 
> The suspect K3 is serial number:  1193
> 
> The working K3 is serial number: 1062
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks and 73, 
> 
> Bruce – N1LN





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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power out issue

[Bruce Meier]

Update – 

 

Not sure how I missed this, but I just determined that this ONLY happens
when NOT in SPLIT mode.   And – it happens on BOTH K3s.  I had my other K3
in split and did not notice it.  I can reproduce the same symptom on both
K3s when NOT in split but -  when in split – both are fine.  Doesn’t matter
what band nor does it matter if VFO A and B are on the same or different
frequencies.

 

When NOT in SPLIT the output power overshoots for the first 3 dahs every
time the power level is changed either up or down.

 

Hum,

 

Bruce – N1LN

 

From: Bruce Meier [mailto:beme...@bellsouth.net] 
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 20:06
To: 'elecraft@mailman.qth.net'
Subject: K3 power out issue

 

I just noticed that one of my K3s seems to have a power out issue.
Specifically, when keying for the first time, the output power seems to be
overshooting what it is set at.   If I continue to send CW at the same power
it is fine.   If I decrease or increase the power the output overshoots what
it is set at and them comes back down.  If I change bands, even without
changing the power level, the power overshoots the power selected for the
first few dahs.

 

How do I know this?  Well, the configuration is a K3/100 and an Acom 2000A.
The Acom forward power LEDs overshoot the 1500 watt limit and then come back
down.  It should take roughly 50w to drive the Acom to legal limit.
However, if I set the power on the K3 to 45 the Acom reads 1600 and then
drops to 1400 on the third dah.  If I set the K3 to 50 watts the Acom reads
1800 and then drops to 1500 on the third dah.   This suspect K3 used to have
an Ameritron AL1500 connected to it so this issue could have been occurring
for some time and I would not have known it.

 

So – you say – why do I suspect the K3?  Well, I have (2) K3/100s and (2)
Acom 2000As and the ONLY time this happens is if either Acom is connected to
the suspect K3.  The other K3 when connected to either Acom is just fine.
The power reading on the Acom connected to the “good” K3 is as it should be
– constant.  Additionally, the power output reading on the K3 RF power scale
overshoots the selected power and then comes back down to the power
selected.  It is just not as noticeable as the Acom RED Leds.

 

I went through all the memory settings on both K3s and they are identical.
I did calibrations on both K3s at 5w and 50w and the problem stays with the
suspect K3.  

 

Both K3s are at the following uCode levels:4.60 / d1 = 2.8 / d2 = 2.8 /
FL 1.15

Ø  Yes, I did a u-code reload

 

Both K3s have all the same updates installed

The suspect K3 is serial number:  1193

The working K3 is serial number: 1062

 

 

Anyone have any suggestions?

 

Thanks and 73,

 

Bruce – N1LN

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power out jumps on power change

[Gordon LaPoint]

Mike, 
   That seems to have fixed it!

Thanks!

Gordon - N1MGO

On 19 Mar 2013 at 4:32, Mike K2MK wrote:

> Hi Gordon,
> 
> Hopefully it is a simple calibration problem. Redo the Calibrate Transmitter
> Gain from the K3 Utility program Calibration tab. If you still have problems
> you may need to touch up the results as directed at the top of page 62 of
> the K3 manual. Be sure to check every band. Typically the problems will only
> occur on one or two bands. If you have difficulty with these manual
> adjustments come back with questions and those that have performed the
> adjustments will help guide you through.
> 
> 73,
> Mike K2MK
> 
> 
> 
> Gordon LaPoint wrote
> > Hi,
> > I'm having problems with my K3-100 with power out.  If Power is 12
> > watts or less 
> > (100W pa not in use) and I adjust the power out then the power goes to the
> > new level with 
> > no problem, as long as power requested is less than 12 watts.
> > 
> > When using the 100Watt PA if power is adjusted it will cause power to jump
> > to 110 watts 
> > for a second or less, then go to the requested power. This causes my
> > KPA500 to fault.
> > The problem is occuring with either the power knob or software from the
> > computer.
> > 
> > After the power stablizes at the new level then it is fine untill I change
> > power again.  
> > 
> > This occurs in any mode.  Any clues that can help me fix this?  
> > SN is 5651, I built the K3 in August of 2011, it worked fine untill the
> > last month.
> > 
> > Thank you,
> > Gordon - N1MGO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power out jumps on power change

[Mike K2MK]

Hi Gordon,

Hopefully it is a simple calibration problem. Redo the Calibrate Transmitter
Gain from the K3 Utility program Calibration tab. If you still have problems
you may need to touch up the results as directed at the top of page 62 of
the K3 manual. Be sure to check every band. Typically the problems will only
occur on one or two bands. If you have difficulty with these manual
adjustments come back with questions and those that have performed the
adjustments will help guide you through.

73,
Mike K2MK



Gordon LaPoint wrote
> Hi,
> I'm having problems with my K3-100 with power out.  If Power is 12
> watts or less 
> (100W pa not in use) and I adjust the power out then the power goes to the
> new level with 
> no problem, as long as power requested is less than 12 watts.
> 
> When using the 100Watt PA if power is adjusted it will cause power to jump
> to 110 watts 
> for a second or less, then go to the requested power. This causes my
> KPA500 to fault.
> The problem is occuring with either the power knob or software from the
> computer.
> 
> After the power stablizes at the new level then it is fine untill I change
> power again.  
> 
> This occurs in any mode.  Any clues that can help me fix this?  
> SN is 5651, I built the K3 in August of 2011, it worked fine untill the
> last month.
> 
> Thank you,
> Gordon - N1MGO





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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power Out

[Don Wilhelm]

Glenn,

Can you do the Transmit Gain Calibration manually (from the menu - see 
the K3 manual)?  Try it - it must be done on each band, and should be 
done forst at the 5 watt level and then the 50 watt level.  Which bands 
succeed and which bands fail?

73,
Don W3FPR

Glenn Haffly wrote:
> I have K3 serial number 2802 with the 100 watt option. All was well until 
> today.
> Currently there is zero to minimal output.
> Rotating the power knob to 12 watts you hear the relay. Regardless of power 
> setting
> only 1 bar on the RF is lit.The fans are workings.
> Rechecking the TX calibration it failed at 5 watts with the ERR TXG message 
> on the display.
>
> Where do I start?
> Glenn , K5ZE 
>
>   
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power Out

[Richard Ferch]

Glenn,

This happened to me recently, and in my case it was a TMP cable between 
the KREF3 board and the RF board that had become dislodged. No doubt 
there are other possible causes, but that's a relatively easy one to check.

73,
Rich VE3KI


K5ZE wrote:

> I have K3 serial number 2802 with the 100 watt option. All was well until 
> today.
> Currently there is zero to minimal output.
> Rotating the power knob to 12 watts you hear the relay. Regardless of power 
> setting
> only 1 bar on the RF is lit.The fans are workings.
> Rechecking the TX calibration it failed at 5 watts with the ERR TXG message 
> on the display.
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RE: [Elecraft] K3: power out & V, A readings

[Ignacy]

Can you try it on 10-15m. At 120 set, the power on this band seems to be
lower, as measured by LP-100.
Ignacy 
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View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/K3%3A-power-out---V%2C-A-readings-tp1687381p1689821.html
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

[Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU]

David Woolley (E.L) wrote:

Jan Erik Holm wrote:


Please Elecraft, make a FW change and limit the radio
to 100W, thanks!


Human nature being what it is, the likely result of this would be a 
large number of people refusing to upgrade their firmware any further 
and a significant grapevine message about how new purchasers can get 
increased power by downgrading the firmware.


There is quite a significant lobby on this list for the radio to 
impose no restrictions in firmware.


That's putting it well.  Perhaps such features can be optionally 
enabled?  It might satisfy both camps: those who want to get reminders 
not to do stuff they don't want to do, and those who to retain as much 
control as possible locally.


Leigh/WA5ZNU


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RE: [Elecraft] K3: power out & V, A readings

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> Okay, so then did voltage (and amp) readings using the K3 
> itself. Watts are also read from the K3.
> 
> Receive:  13.6  /  0.75

13.6 is a little low.  I would touch up the trimmer on the 
regulator to make the voltage 13.9 or 14.0 on receive.  The 
K3 and particularly any accessory connected to the +12V jack 
will be much happier. 

> 10 / 13.1  /  3.61
> 12 / 13.1  /  3.88
> 13 / 13.3  /  7.48   (KPA kicks in)
> 20 / 13.3  /  8.64

Note the voltage comes back up when the KPA kicks in (the 
current through Q2 drops from about 3.8A to around 2.3A). 
All of these track what I have been seeing. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
  



> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL
> Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:53 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3: power out & V, A readings
> 
> 
> Well, prompted by the interesting discourse here, I decided 
> to ignore my bulk and get on the floor to make some 
> measurements at the PS (RS35A).
> 
> K3 on Receive: 13.60 volts
> K3 at 120 watts output:  13.59 volts
> 
> H.
> 
> Okay, so then did voltage (and amp) readings using the K3 
> itself. Watts are also read from the K3.
> 
> Receive:  13.6  /  0.75
> 
> Xmit :
> watts output / voltage / amps (xmit is CW, key down)
> 0.0 / 13.4  /  1.75
> 1.0 / 13.4  /  2.14
> 2.0 / 13.4  /  2.49
> 3.0 / 13.3  /  2.66
> 4.0 / 13.3  /  2.84
> 5.0 / 13.3  /  2.96
> 10 / 13.1  /  3.61
> 12 / 13.1  /  3.88
> 13 / 13.3  /  7.48   (KPA kicks in)
> 20 / 13.3  /  8.64
> 30 / 13.2  /  10.21
> 40 / 13.2  /  11.38
> 50 / 13.1  /  12.45
> 60 / 13.1  /  13.20
> 70 / 13.1  /  14.07
> 80 / 13.1  /  14.83
> 90 / 13.1  /  15.64
> 100 / 13.0  /  16.40
> 110 / 13.0  /  16.97
> 120 / 12.9 flickering to 13.0  /  17.66
> 
> Well, the Astron appears to be VFB after about 3 decades of 
> service.  :-)
> 
> So...do these numbers tell us anything?
> 
> de Doug KR2Q



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RE: [Elecraft] K3: power out & V, A readings

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Those numbers look similar to mine if you're testing on 40 meters, Doug. 

The efficiency of the K3's transmitter varies from band to band, with (IMX)
40 meters having the best efficiency and so the lowest current drain vs. RF
output. 

Ron 

-Original Message-

Well, prompted by the interesting discourse here, I decided to ignore
my bulk and get on the floor to make some measurements at the PS
(RS35A).

K3 on Receive: 13.60 volts
K3 at 120 watts output:  13.59 volts

H.

Okay, so then did voltage (and amp) readings using the K3 itself.
Watts are also read from the K3.

Receive:  13.6  /  0.75

Xmit :
watts output / voltage / amps (xmit is CW, key down)
0.0 / 13.4  /  1.75
1.0 / 13.4  /  2.14
2.0 / 13.4  /  2.49
3.0 / 13.3  /  2.66
4.0 / 13.3  /  2.84
5.0 / 13.3  /  2.96
10 / 13.1  /  3.61
12 / 13.1  /  3.88
13 / 13.3  /  7.48   (KPA kicks in)
20 / 13.3  /  8.64
30 / 13.2  /  10.21
40 / 13.2  /  11.38
50 / 13.1  /  12.45
60 / 13.1  /  13.20
70 / 13.1  /  14.07
80 / 13.1  /  14.83
90 / 13.1  /  15.64
100 / 13.0  /  16.40
110 / 13.0  /  16.97
120 / 12.9 flickering to 13.0  /  17.66

Well, the Astron appears to be VFB after about 3 decades of service.  :-)

So...do these numbers tell us anything?

de Doug KR2Q
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RE: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Yes, crowbar circuits "disable" the power supply, but some crowbar circuits
are self-resetting. They shut down the power supply only as long as the
over-current condition remains and automatically return power when it's
gone. 

Some of the K3 owners here have run into that. Their K3 shut down
unexpectedly, so they hit the POWER switch and it came back on. They
transmit again and the K3 shuts down again (because the power supply did). 

Sometimes it's not apparent what is happening because they don't notice that
the power supply is actually shutting down. 

I like the more conventional crowbar in the Astron because it requires
cycling the Astron's power switch to reset it. That makes it very clear why
things shut down.

My Astron 20 is "stock"; I have not modified it in any way. It will deliver
a full 20 amps, perhaps an couple of amps more, before the crowbar trips.
That's enough to run the K3 at 100 watts on all bands if the SWR is low. 

A well designed supply like the Astron can deliver full rated power - in
this case 20 amps ICS - 24/7 without any problems as long as the demand is
ICS -- "Intermittent Commercial Service" -- meaning there are periods when
the full current is not being drawn such as during receive. In the K3
running CW or SSB, that demand is intermittent even during transmit since
the full current is drawn only on momentary voice peaks or while the CW key
is actually closed. 

Ron AC7AC 



-Original Message-
From: Jim W7RY [mailto:w...@arrl.net] 
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:56 PM
To: Ron D'Eau Claire; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

Ron
A crowbar circuit is used to "disable" the power supply in the event of over

voltage.  The current limit is what would limit the current output of a 
power supply.


A typical crowbar circuit uses a SCR triggered by a voltage sensor. The SCR 
conducts and shorts the output of the supply. Which in turn puts it into 
current limit mode and decreases the output voltage to near zero.

And yes, a 20 amp supply is marginal for a 100 watt HF rig because of the 
examples you have given. The 20 amp Astron can be fudged a little bit by 
increasing the current limit to around 22 amps. The modification involves 
adding a resistor to the current limit circuit of the 723 regulator.


73 and Merry Christmas to all!

Jim W7RY
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

[Jan Erik Holm]

OK that could be done, I will experiment further when
I do get some time. I know I have checked the PS voltage
but dont remember what it was, have to go down into the
basement and check. Now checked, it´s 13.88 at 100W and
13.84V at 120W.
IMD comes up 8dB at 120W compared with 100W. Stays pritty
much flat betwen 10-100W. At 100W K3 is about 10 dB worse
then a FT-1000D at full 200W. And for kicks a Collins
KWM-2 is 10 dB better then the FT-1000D. What I measure
is the fully modulated envelope and scan 10 kHz up/dwn
from center frequency. That is, what interests me is
how the radios looks 5 kHz up/down from center frequency,
i e adjacent channel IMD if I call it that.
If I would have been the designer I would never have
allowed above 100W PEP SSB, CW of course is OK.

Merry Christmas / Jim

Bill W4ZV wrote:



Jan Erik Holm wrote:

After measuring the TX IMD on SSB I stopped putting the
radio above 100W.



Jim try setting your power supply so you have 13.8-14.0V key down at maximum
power and see if that helps the IMD some.

73,  Bill



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

[Bill W4ZV]

Jan Erik Holm wrote:
> 
> After measuring the TX IMD on SSB I stopped putting the
> radio above 100W.
> 

Jim try setting your power supply so you have 13.8-14.0V key down at maximum
power and see if that helps the IMD some.

73,  Bill

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/K3-Power-out-tp1684775p1686460.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

[David Woolley (E.L)]

Jan Erik Holm wrote:


Please Elecraft, make a FW change and limit the radio
to 100W, thanks!


Human nature being what it is, the likely result of this would be a 
large number of people refusing to upgrade their firmware any further 
and a significant grapevine message about how new purchasers can get 
increased power by downgrading the firmware.


There is quite a significant lobby on this list for the radio to impose 
no restrictions in firmware.


--
David Woolley
"The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to 
Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio"

List Guidelines 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

[Jan Erik Holm]

Sorry made a typo. 199W should be 100W.

Jan Erik Holm wrote:

After measuring the TX IMD on SSB I stopped putting the
radio above 100W.
IMO the K3 should be limited to 100W, it is sad to see
it isn´t.
My advice would be, on SSB never go above 199W, on CW
it doesn´t matter.
Please Elecraft, make a FW change and limit the radio
to 100W, thanks!

/ Jim SM2EKM



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

[Jan Erik Holm]

After measuring the TX IMD on SSB I stopped putting the
radio above 100W.
IMO the K3 should be limited to 100W, it is sad to see
it isn´t.
My advice would be, on SSB never go above 199W, on CW
it doesn´t matter.
Please Elecraft, make a FW change and limit the radio
to 100W, thanks!

/ Jim SM2EKM
---
Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

Hello Gary, and congratulations! Opening up the K3 again is not nearly as
traumatic as you might think. 


The POWER control will *ask* for more than the rig can deliver. It's spec'd
at 100 watts, and that's what is guaranteed. The K3 can make a bit more than
100 watts on most bands, but that's all it's spec'd to do. When you set the
POWER control for a specific output, it tries to adjust the transmitter
circuits for that output, but can't do it if it's out of their range. That's
what is happening to you at 120 watts. 


The absolute maximum power will vary by band and to some extent from rig to
rig. But since 120 watts is a whole 0.8 dB more than 100 watts, it's not
significant on the air.

You're probably crowding that 20 amp supply at 100 watts on some bands. The
efficiency (and so the current required for a given output power) varies
from band to band. I'm running a K3 with a 20 amp supply, but I'm near the
limit on some bands at right on 20 amps for 100 watts out, if the SWR is
quite low. (Higher SWR's reduce the efficiency so the current goes up!) 


I don't know whether your supply has a crowbar circuit in it, but my Astron
does. It lets me know if I push too hard by simply shutting down. I have to
cycle the power supply mains switch to reset it, then turn the K3 on again. 

Ron AC7AC 






-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Gary Smith
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:04 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

Firstly 

Got the K3 assembled. The transverter board was back ordered and so 
is the subreceiver so I will be re entering the K3 and adding to it 
at least twice over the next few months. I'm not looking forward to 
the disassembly & re-assembly but doing the kit sure gave me a great 
appreciation for the detail and function this marvelous radio has. 
Absolutely amazing.


Kudos Wane & Eric, you surely have an amazing way of looking at 
things. Most effective and clear.


With that there are a few questions but in the spirit of one at a 
time;


The power supply I have been using in the setup is a Heathkit Power 
supply which was made for one of their last Transceivers. It's a HP-

1144 and offers 20 Amps out.

After calibrating the K3 I tried getting 120 watts out to the dummy 
load but after the 50 watt calibration, when I held tune down to see 
how it read. I only got 102-105W out, not 120, though I set he power 
out at 120W. I'm wondering if the Heath power supply is lacking and 
that's the reason for the lower maximum output? It seemed to work 
well as a backup for the Omni V & corsair.


Idears?

Thanks
Gary
(One year older as of yesterday...)


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

[Jim W7RY]

Ron
A crowbar circuit is used to "disable" the power supply in the event of over 
voltage.  The current limit is what would limit the current output of a 
power supply.



A typical crowbar circuit uses a SCR triggered by a voltage sensor. The SCR 
conducts and shorts the output of the supply. Which in turn puts it into 
current limit mode and decreases the output voltage to near zero.


And yes, a 20 amp supply is marginal for a 100 watt HF rig because of the 
examples you have given. The 20 amp Astron can be fudged a little bit by 
increasing the current limit to around 22 amps. The modification involves 
adding a resistor to the current limit circuit of the 723 regulator.



73 and Merry Christmas to all!

Jim W7RY



- Original Message - 
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" 

To: ; 
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Power out



Hello Gary, and congratulations! Opening up the K3 again is not nearly as
traumatic as you might think.

The POWER control will *ask* for more than the rig can deliver. It's 
spec'd
at 100 watts, and that's what is guaranteed. The K3 can make a bit more 
than
100 watts on most bands, but that's all it's spec'd to do. When you set 
the

POWER control for a specific output, it tries to adjust the transmitter
circuits for that output, but can't do it if it's out of their range. 
That's

what is happening to you at 120 watts.

The absolute maximum power will vary by band and to some extent from rig 
to

rig. But since 120 watts is a whole 0.8 dB more than 100 watts, it's not
significant on the air.

You're probably crowding that 20 amp supply at 100 watts on some bands. 
The

efficiency (and so the current required for a given output power) varies
from band to band. I'm running a K3 with a 20 amp supply, but I'm near the
limit on some bands at right on 20 amps for 100 watts out, if the SWR is
quite low. (Higher SWR's reduce the efficiency so the current goes up!)

I don't know whether your supply has a crowbar circuit in it, but my 
Astron
does. It lets me know if I push too hard by simply shutting down. I have 
to
cycle the power supply mains switch to reset it, then turn the K3 on 
again.


Ron AC7AC





-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Gary Smith
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:04 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

Firstly

Got the K3 assembled. The transverter board was back ordered and so
is the subreceiver so I will be re entering the K3 and adding to it
at least twice over the next few months. I'm not looking forward to
the disassembly & re-assembly but doing the kit sure gave me a great
appreciation for the detail and function this marvelous radio has.
Absolutely amazing.

Kudos Wane & Eric, you surely have an amazing way of looking at
things. Most effective and clear.

With that there are a few questions but in the spirit of one at a
time;

The power supply I have been using in the setup is a Heathkit Power
supply which was made for one of their last Transceivers. It's a HP-
1144 and offers 20 Amps out.

After calibrating the K3 I tried getting 120 watts out to the dummy
load but after the 50 watt calibration, when I held tune down to see
how it read. I only got 102-105W out, not 120, though I set he power
out at 120W. I'm wondering if the Heath power supply is lacking and
that's the reason for the lower maximum output? It seemed to work
well as a backup for the Omni V & corsair.

Idears?

Thanks
Gary
(One year older as of yesterday...)
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

[chen dave]

I got following data with IFR AM/FM 1600:
K3 sn1302

POWER SET(W) POWER OUT（W) Difference ERR(%)
0 0.15 0.15
0.1 0.15 0.05 50.00%
0.2 0.3 0.1 50.00%
0.3 0.31 0.01 3.33%
0.4 0.4 0 0.00%
0.5 0.51 0.01 2.00%
0.6 0.63 0.03 5.00%
0.7 0.69 -0.01 -1.43%
0.8 0.76 -0.04 -5.00%
0.9 0.83 -0.07 -7.78%
1 1 0 0.00%
2 2.1 0.1 5.00%
3 3.2 0.2 6.67%
4 4.2 0.2 5.00%
5 5 0 0.00%
6 5.8 -0.2 -3.33%
7 6.6 -0.4 -5.71%
8 7.7 -0.3 -3.75%
9 8.8 -0.2 -2.22%
10 9.7 -0.3 -3.00%
12 11.4 -0.6 -5.00%
14 15.8 1.8 12.86%
16 17.5 1.5 9.38%
18 19.7 1.7 9.44%
20 21.8 1.8 9.00%
22 24 2 9.09%
24 25.5 1.5 6.25%
26 27.7 1.7 6.54%
28 29.3 1.3 4.64%
30 30.8 0.8 2.67%
32 33.3 1.3 4.06%
34 35.1 1.1 3.24%
36 37 1 2.78%
38 38.9 0.9 2.37%
40 40.5 0.5 1.25%
42 42 0 0.00%
44 44 0 0.00%
46 46 0 0.00%
48 48 0 0.00%
50 50.5 0.5 1.00%
55 54 -1 -1.82%
60 59 -1 -1.67%
65 63 -2 -3.08%

sorry, no over 65w data because no bigger PS in lab.

All the best!
David BA4RF
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Gary Smith  wrote:

> Firstly
>
> Got the K3 assembled. The transverter board was back ordered and so
> is the subreceiver so I will be re entering the K3 and adding to it
> at least twice over the next few months. I'm not looking forward to
> the disassembly & re-assembly but doing the kit sure gave me a great
> appreciation for the detail and function this marvelous radio has.
> Absolutely amazing.
>
> Kudos Wane & Eric, you surely have an amazing way of looking at
> things. Most effective and clear.
>
> With that there are a few questions but in the spirit of one at a
> time;
>
> The power supply I have been using in the setup is a Heathkit Power
> supply which was made for one of their last Transceivers. It's a HP-
> 1144 and offers 20 Amps out.
>
> After calibrating the K3 I tried getting 120 watts out to the dummy
> load but after the 50 watt calibration, when I held tune down to see
> how it read. I only got 102-105W out, not 120, though I set he power
> out at 120W. I'm wondering if the Heath power supply is lacking and
> that's the reason for the lower maximum output? It seemed to work
> well as a backup for the Omni V & corsair.
>
> Idears?
>
> Thanks
> Gary
> (One year older as of yesterday...)
> ___
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RE: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Hello Gary, and congratulations! Opening up the K3 again is not nearly as
traumatic as you might think. 

The POWER control will *ask* for more than the rig can deliver. It's spec'd
at 100 watts, and that's what is guaranteed. The K3 can make a bit more than
100 watts on most bands, but that's all it's spec'd to do. When you set the
POWER control for a specific output, it tries to adjust the transmitter
circuits for that output, but can't do it if it's out of their range. That's
what is happening to you at 120 watts. 

The absolute maximum power will vary by band and to some extent from rig to
rig. But since 120 watts is a whole 0.8 dB more than 100 watts, it's not
significant on the air.

You're probably crowding that 20 amp supply at 100 watts on some bands. The
efficiency (and so the current required for a given output power) varies
from band to band. I'm running a K3 with a 20 amp supply, but I'm near the
limit on some bands at right on 20 amps for 100 watts out, if the SWR is
quite low. (Higher SWR's reduce the efficiency so the current goes up!) 

I don't know whether your supply has a crowbar circuit in it, but my Astron
does. It lets me know if I push too hard by simply shutting down. I have to
cycle the power supply mains switch to reset it, then turn the K3 on again. 

Ron AC7AC 





-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Gary Smith
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:04 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Power out

Firstly 

Got the K3 assembled. The transverter board was back ordered and so 
is the subreceiver so I will be re entering the K3 and adding to it 
at least twice over the next few months. I'm not looking forward to 
the disassembly & re-assembly but doing the kit sure gave me a great 
appreciation for the detail and function this marvelous radio has. 
Absolutely amazing.

Kudos Wane & Eric, you surely have an amazing way of looking at 
things. Most effective and clear.

With that there are a few questions but in the spirit of one at a 
time;

The power supply I have been using in the setup is a Heathkit Power 
supply which was made for one of their last Transceivers. It's a HP-
1144 and offers 20 Amps out.

After calibrating the K3 I tried getting 120 watts out to the dummy 
load but after the 50 watt calibration, when I held tune down to see 
how it read. I only got 102-105W out, not 120, though I set he power 
out at 120W. I'm wondering if the Heath power supply is lacking and 
that's the reason for the lower maximum output? It seemed to work 
well as a backup for the Omni V & corsair.

Idears?

Thanks
Gary
(One year older as of yesterday...)
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