Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Understood. My poorly described point was that the signal strength as reported by the s-meter may not provide a good description of the signal strength you heard which may be influenced by the ?bandwidth? of the signal passing through the meter. Readability can be influenced by factors other than by signal strength. How wide is the band being read by the s-meter circuit, and can signal strength be influenced by the power distribution within that s-meter band width, in particular by varying the TX or RX equalizer? Rich NU6T On 7/15/2010 9:38 AM, The Smiths wrote: > Rich, > > You DO tell the other person how you are "receiving" them.. That's the > R part of the report READABILITY... If you have difficultly with copy > of their signal you can go from 1 to 5 with that report. The S meter > still tells you how well their signal strength is at your QTH. > Even if you have a Superdupper rig that can filter every bit of noise > out of the signal chain, and you can hear them as if they were sitting > right next to you, it doesn't mean that the standard for Signal > strength has changed. The guy on the other end of the radio just > wants to know how well he's pushing your meter up and down with his > antenna set up (and your antenna as part of that factor).. > The readability part will let him know if his rig is doing a good job > of filtering the noise so he can copy you. I've had RST reports > of 379 because the other person could clearly see that my signal > strength was there, but the QRN was keeping him from having clear copy > of it. With your method and a loud noise floor I would have most > likely got a 419 instead. > > > > > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:58:27 -0700 > > From: reh...@ix.netcom.com > > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > > > > I don't really understand, but would be interested in more > discussion on > > this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your > > ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same. > > > > Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm > > hearing that the actual power stays the same. > > > > We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we > > can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent "loudness" we > hear > > by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the > > best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity > > to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the > > same effect. > > > > That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound like > > something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It > > seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are > > receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that > > is the result of more than the meter reading. > > > > > > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your > inbox. Get started. > <http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3> __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Amen! -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of ussv dharma Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:36 PM To: drewko; The Smiths; Tom W8JI Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior Aloha Peoples: being raised in "tube type" electronics I do not profess to understand solid state beyond the "hole " theory. Thus, I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT THE RECEIVER/ANTENNA DOES TO THE SIGNAL...the main thing is that I can hear you and understand what you are saying. Is it "arm chair copy"? Do you have an "old time 75 meter bodacious" signal? Bottom line, It all does not matter as my antenna/receiver/filter/hearing aid/ear combination effects the received signal that I just cant say how strong your signal isnow, if I had a station equipped with all the lab equipment I want, perhaps then I could tell you your 'RELATIVE' signal strength. my last post on this subject. Grandmaw Susan If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm AFA9SM USSV DHARMA --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Tom W8JI wrote: > From: Tom W8JI > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > To: "drewko" , "The Smiths" > Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 6:27 AM > > Personally, I would prefer that > the s-meter not operate in this way in > > ABS mode. RF Gain should have no effect on the s-meter > action when in > > ABS mode, just as ATT and PRE do not. > > It would probably screw up (highly technical term) how the > system works, or > require a separate receiver just for the S meter. > > The RF gain must be ahead of the DSP system. This means the > real signal > level to the DSP could be reduced 30 dB or even > significantly more than that > amount. > > How and why would someone design a DSP system that could > measure the level > on a signal that was not actually present??? There is no > cheap or easy way > to do that, so Elecraft does what everyone else does. > Ever since receivers > began, the RF gain will either affect the absolute S meter > reading in > relationship to input level, or the S meter will show the > increase in gain > reduction by increasing resting S meter reading as the gain > is reduced. > > I think you want something that cannot be done. > > Besides, S meter are pretty much meaningless anyway. I only > use mine to tell > me when I need to use an attenuator pad or a preamp. > > 73 Tom > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Aloha Peoples: being raised in "tube type" electronics I do not profess to understand solid state beyond the "hole " theory. Thus, I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT THE RECEIVER/ANTENNA DOES TO THE SIGNAL...the main thing is that I can hear you and understand what you are saying. Is it "arm chair copy"? Do you have an "old time 75 meter bodacious" signal? Bottom line, It all does not matter as my antenna/receiver/filter/hearing aid/ear combination effects the received signal that I just cant say how strong your signal isnow, if I had a station equipped with all the lab equipment I want, perhaps then I could tell you your 'RELATIVE' signal strength. my last post on this subject. Grandmaw Susan If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm AFA9SM USSV DHARMA --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Tom W8JI wrote: > From: Tom W8JI > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > To: "drewko" , "The Smiths" > Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 6:27 AM > > Personally, I would prefer that > the s-meter not operate in this way in > > ABS mode. RF Gain should have no effect on the s-meter > action when in > > ABS mode, just as ATT and PRE do not. > > It would probably screw up (highly technical term) how the > system works, or > require a separate receiver just for the S meter. > > The RF gain must be ahead of the DSP system. This means the > real signal > level to the DSP could be reduced 30 dB or even > significantly more than that > amount. > > How and why would someone design a DSP system that could > measure the level > on a signal that was not actually present??? There is no > cheap or easy way > to do that, so Elecraft does what everyone else does. > Ever since receivers > began, the RF gain will either affect the absolute S meter > reading in > relationship to input level, or the S meter will show the > increase in gain > reduction by increasing resting S meter reading as the gain > is reduced. > > I think you want something that cannot be done. > > Besides, S meter are pretty much meaningless anyway. I only > use mine to tell > me when I need to use an attenuator pad or a preamp. > > 73 Tom > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
I don't know about your rigs, but My Icom 706, My Ten Tec Omni 1, Yaesu 767GX circa 1980 and my Yaesu FT-2000D all seem to match my K3's S meter reading all within one S unit. That's close enough for me This is a Hobby, not an exact science. At least if someone on the air gives me an S3 reading I know approximately how well I'm doing at his QTH given the idea I know HIS antenna set up, and Mine. That's good enough for me. > From: w...@w8ji.com > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:52:29 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > > > Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off > > reflector email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some > > time (1970's when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we > > were able to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a > > STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST. > > > There may be a "standard" some people believe in, but it is a "paper > standard" that never took hold. Drake used 5 db per S unit as a goal, ICOM > about the same. Collins was down around 3 dB per S unit as a target. > > Most receivers are around 1 dB or so per S unit down around S 1, and very > few prior to digital processing were ever remotely linear over the S range. > > My FT1000MP MKV, sitting in front of me now, is 2 S units per 6 dB at S8 and > the very same 6 db pad drops it from S5 to S0 (it has that scale point, even > though there is no such thing). > > I've never measured the K3 for many reasons. S meters historically have been > very poor, absolute signal level at a receiver is not an indication of field > strength in volts-per-meter, volts-per-meter is not a constant indication of > S/N ratio or even how "loud" a signal is, and so on. This whole thing is an > exercise similar to arguing how to measure plate milliamps using #47 light > bulb. > > How would Elecraft or anyone else measure the meaningless S units of an S3 > signal when RF gain is set so the DSP only sees an S5 signal at the lowest > signal sensitivity? Why work to know what isn't even important, and what is > never useful? > > 73 Tom > > > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
I think you miss my point entirely. I never said that you needed to know the gain characteristics of your antenna ... only that since you don't (none of us do since we don't know what the arrival angle is) any S-meter reading is only a relative indication of received signal strength anyway. You're all upset that the S-meter on the K3 (as with just about every other rig on the market) shifts as you change RF Gain, but in all reality it is a meaningless consideration anyway. "Relative" is all you get no matter what you think the K3 should be able to do, or would be able to do if it had a lab quality RF voltmeter. I'm not trying to impress anyone or be overly technical, but I will try to put it in simpler terms for you. Let's say that you have two antennas that both function on 40m but physically they don't look at all alike. Neither you nor the guy on the other end has any clue what the gain, pattern, and efficiency is for either of them. Let's also say that you have a calibrated RF microvoltmeter (complete with handy chart to convert to S-units if desired) and you check his signal on both antennas. As expected, you get different readings from the two antennas. What do you give the other guy for his report? You have two different voltmeter readings and since you don't know the parameters of either antenna, neither reading has any correlation at all to the strength of the arriving signal. Even your own two readings are not the same. Your only recourse is to give the guy a subjective report relative to other signals on the band at the time. So how is that any different than what you have right now? You stated, "I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9." Yet, when I pointed out the even greater influence of the antenna on "the actual signal level of a station" you're talking to, you reply that it's silly and irrelevant. There's something wrong with that picture. 73, Dave AB7E On 7/15/2010 9:08 AM, The Smiths wrote: > What a silly question.. Again, some of you guys just have to be > so over technical about EVERYTHING. I'm certain that sometimes being > TOO smart can be a detriment to your own self. This is an S meter, > it's used by some to give an S report. Part of an RST.. This isn't a > scientific calibration device.. If you're talking to someone in > XYZ QTH and you have your antenna pointed at XYZ's location, or you > have an omni directional antenna and it's receiving XYZ location at 4 > S units, and You can hear them clearly and their tone is correct.. > They have an RS(T) of 54(9). > > Sorry dave, it's really just that simple. If you've set a "standard" > for your S meter during it's calibration then S 4 means 4.. Not oh my > goodness is there gain on my antenna, do I need to factor in his > azimuth and the arrival angle of his signal to my antenna.. JUST STOP, > and enjoy your hobby for a change, don't over think it. Or even worse, > try to be technical to impress people on the reflector. We all know > that there are a lot of guys on here that know a LOT about a LOT of > things... But they don't need to try to impress nor answer EVERYONE > with their knowledge EVERY time. Save it for when it really counts, > not on how to read an S meter. > > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:27:40 -0700 > > From: xda...@cis-broadband.com > > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > > > > > > Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss > > of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth > > relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately > > tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your > > property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in > > that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding > > yourself if you think differently. > > > > 73, > > Dave AB7E > > > > > > On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote: > > > I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And > your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre > is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're > not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate > that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted. &
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Did you mean "The readability part will let him know if _your_ rig is doing a good job of filtering.." instead of "The readability part will let him know if _his_ rig is doing a good job of filtering..."? ' 73, Mike NF4L On 7/15/2010 12:38 PM, The Smiths wrote: > Rich, > > > > You DO tell the other person how you are "receiving" them.. That's the R part > of the report READABILITY... If you have difficultly with copy of their > signal you can go from 1 to 5 with that report. The S meter still tells you > how well their signal strength is at your QTH. > > Even if you have a Superdupper rig that can filter every bit of noise out of > the signal chain, and you can hear them as if they were sitting right next to > you, it doesn't mean that the standard for Signal strength has changed. The > guy on the other end of the radio just wants to know how well he's pushing > your meter up and down with his antenna set up (and your antenna as part of > that factor).. > > The readability part will let him know if his rig is doing a good job of > filtering the noise so he can copy you. I've had RST reports of 379 because > the other person could clearly see that my signal strength was there, but the > QRN was keeping him from having clear copy of it. With your method and a loud > noise floor I would have most likely got a 419 instead. > > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:58:27 -0700 >> From: reh...@ix.netcom.com >> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior >> >> I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on >> this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your >> ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same. >> >> Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm >> hearing that the actual power stays the same. >> >> We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we >> can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent "loudness" we hear >> by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the >> best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity >> to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the >> same effect. >> >> That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound like >> something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It >> seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are >> receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that >> is the result of more than the meter reading. >> >> > _ > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior [END of Thread]
This topic has easily exceeded the 'Too many postings' limit. Time to end this topic for now. In the future, on a high volume topic like this, please self regulate. :-) 73, Eric WA6HHQ Elecraft List modulator __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
As this drifts further from the original topic... I find it amusing that a station will ask me to repeat my callsign and name several times, and then give me a "59" report. I think I messed up several people over the weekend contest by giving them "5-7 08" reports instead of what they expected. One station actually lost their "contest tempo" when I came back with "45 zone 8." Working back toward the original topic... I generally give signal reports based on what I think the signal would be with the RF gain fully clockwise, and attenuator and preamp both turned off. To me, that would be the "natural" and unmodified smeter reading. (I've never given better than 57 on 10 meters.) This best meets my understanding of what that portion of the signal report should be: A report of signal level as it is received by my rig (and not a signal level as my rig has modified it.) Of course, I'm a "newbie" ham, so I'm probably doing it all wrong. 73 - Gary / k3wow On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:21 PM, The Smiths wrote: > > Exactly! > > Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off reflector > email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some time (1970's > when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we were able to > shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a STANDARDIZED S meter > reading as part of the RST. > > Now R is just that, Readability. How well can you copy someone. S is > Strength of the meter, which everyone should have set to the same approximate > level, and T for quality of tone. > > Some old habits die hard. Not everything first invented in Ham radio has to > be forced until the world ends. Much to some peoples Chagrin, we DO evolve > as ham radio operators. > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
On Jul 15, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: > > There may be a "standard" some people believe in, but it is a "paper > standard" that never took hold. I always thought the standard was "you're 5x9 here OM, and please repeat your call, QTH and my signal report" :-) Grant/NQ5T __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off > reflector email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some > time (1970's when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we > were able to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a > STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST. There may be a "standard" some people believe in, but it is a "paper standard" that never took hold. Drake used 5 db per S unit as a goal, ICOM about the same. Collins was down around 3 dB per S unit as a target. Most receivers are around 1 dB or so per S unit down around S 1, and very few prior to digital processing were ever remotely linear over the S range. My FT1000MP MKV, sitting in front of me now, is 2 S units per 6 dB at S8 and the very same 6 db pad drops it from S5 to S0 (it has that scale point, even though there is no such thing). I've never measured the K3 for many reasons. S meters historically have been very poor, absolute signal level at a receiver is not an indication of field strength in volts-per-meter, volts-per-meter is not a constant indication of S/N ratio or even how "loud" a signal is, and so on. This whole thing is an exercise similar to arguing how to measure plate milliamps using #47 light bulb. How would Elecraft or anyone else measure the meaningless S units of an S3 signal when RF gain is set so the DSP only sees an S5 signal at the lowest signal sensitivity? Why work to know what isn't even important, and what is never useful? 73 Tom __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Exactly! Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off reflector email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some time (1970's when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we were able to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST. Now R is just that, Readability. How well can you copy someone. S is Strength of the meter, which everyone should have set to the same approximate level, and T for quality of tone. Some old habits die hard. Not everything first invented in Ham radio has to be forced until the world ends. Much to some peoples Chagrin, we DO evolve as ham radio operators. > From: n...@comcast.net > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:38:09 -0500 > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > > Actually the S meter is used so the Strength of the signal report is *not* > subjective, that's reserved for Readability. I firmly believe that the > Strength report must *not* be subjective, why else ever put a meter to > measure signal Strength? In the case of signal Strength we *must* > differentiate between perception and reality so we can let different stations > know how strong their signals are received at our location, not how loud they > sound; the two can be vastly different. > > ...and use of the S meter to report signal strength is supported by the > referenced link: > > "The S stands for "Strength". Strength is an assessment of how powerful the > received signal is at the receiving location. Although an accurate signal > strength meter can determine a quantitative value for signal strength, in > practice this portion of the RST code is a qualitative assessment, often made > based on the S meter of the radio receiver at the location of signal > reception." > > On Jul 15, 2010, at 11:00 AM, K5WA wrote: > > > TheSmiths said: > > > > "559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent." > > > > Actually, this statement is inaccurate and the RST code never specifies S > > meter readings but this perception is a common misconception. > > > > 559 means Readability Excellent, Fairly Strong Signals, Perfect tone, no > > trace of ripple or modulation of any kind. > > > > The S-meter reading has little to do with the RST or RS report. RST is a > > subjective code and depends on an operator's opinion of the signal. An > > S-meter reading is a stand alone method of comparing relative signal > > strength that may help support an operator's opinion when needed. > > > > The RST code is fully explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RST_code > > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Has there -ever- been a subject in ham radio that's generated as much argument and discussion over the years? I think not. 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Yes, you can change the gain structure of your receiver. If you want -20dB turn on the ATT, if you want plus 6dB put on the Pre, turn them both on and you've only cut -14dB.. My numbers may be off, but the theory is still there. It's just about having the ability for variables in your adjustments. Or you can just think of it as "a little less ATT".. > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:59:37 -0700 > From: n...@bellsouth.net > To: d...@w3fpr.com > CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > > Don > I performed both functions and they pretty much delivered the expexted > results. > However, I noticed something I consider counter-intuitive. It is possible to > engage PRE and ATT simultaneously. Is there any advantage to this? > > Paul, NU4C > > > > >From: Don Wilhelm > >To: Robert Mitilieri - N9EF > >Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > >Sent: Thu, July 15, 2010 12:30:07 AM > >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > > > >Robert, > > >You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. > >If you have an S-3 noise level, the first attack is to turn off the > >preamp - if that does not reduce the noise level enough, then turn the > >Attenuator ON. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Rich, You DO tell the other person how you are "receiving" them.. That's the R part of the report READABILITY... If you have difficultly with copy of their signal you can go from 1 to 5 with that report. The S meter still tells you how well their signal strength is at your QTH. Even if you have a Superdupper rig that can filter every bit of noise out of the signal chain, and you can hear them as if they were sitting right next to you, it doesn't mean that the standard for Signal strength has changed. The guy on the other end of the radio just wants to know how well he's pushing your meter up and down with his antenna set up (and your antenna as part of that factor).. The readability part will let him know if his rig is doing a good job of filtering the noise so he can copy you. I've had RST reports of 379 because the other person could clearly see that my signal strength was there, but the QRN was keeping him from having clear copy of it. With your method and a loud noise floor I would have most likely got a 419 instead. > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:58:27 -0700 > From: reh...@ix.netcom.com > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > > I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on > this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your > ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same. > > Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm > hearing that the actual power stays the same. > > We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we > can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent "loudness" we hear > by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the > best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity > to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the > same effect. > > That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound like > something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It > seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are > receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that > is the result of more than the meter reading. > > _ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Actually the S meter is used so the Strength of the signal report is *not* subjective, that's reserved for Readability. I firmly believe that the Strength report must *not* be subjective, why else ever put a meter to measure signal Strength? In the case of signal Strength we *must* differentiate between perception and reality so we can let different stations know how strong their signals are received at our location, not how loud they sound; the two can be vastly different. ...and use of the S meter to report signal strength is supported by the referenced link: "The S stands for "Strength". Strength is an assessment of how powerful the received signal is at the receiving location. Although an accurate signal strength meter can determine a quantitative value for signal strength, in practice this portion of the RST code is a qualitative assessment, often made based on the S meter of the radio receiver at the location of signal reception." On Jul 15, 2010, at 11:00 AM, K5WA wrote: > TheSmiths said: > > "559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent." > > Actually, this statement is inaccurate and the RST code never specifies S > meter readings but this perception is a common misconception. > > 559 means Readability Excellent, Fairly Strong Signals, Perfect tone, no > trace of ripple or modulation of any kind. > > The S-meter reading has little to do with the RST or RS report. RST is a > subjective code and depends on an operator's opinion of the signal. An > S-meter reading is a stand alone method of comparing relative signal > strength that may help support an operator's opinion when needed. > > The RST code is fully explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RST_code > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> Personally, I would prefer that the s-meter not operate in this way in > ABS mode. RF Gain should have no effect on the s-meter action when in > ABS mode, just as ATT and PRE do not. It would probably screw up (highly technical term) how the system works, or require a separate receiver just for the S meter. The RF gain must be ahead of the DSP system. This means the real signal level to the DSP could be reduced 30 dB or even significantly more than that amount. How and why would someone design a DSP system that could measure the level on a signal that was not actually present??? There is no cheap or easy way to do that, so Elecraft does what everyone else does. Ever since receivers began, the RF gain will either affect the absolute S meter reading in relationship to input level, or the S meter will show the increase in gain reduction by increasing resting S meter reading as the gain is reduced. I think you want something that cannot be done. Besides, S meter are pretty much meaningless anyway. I only use mine to tell me when I need to use an attenuator pad or a preamp. 73 Tom __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
As far as I have ever known, the S-meter reading has nothing to do with the S of RST signal report. The S is itself defined as the somewhat subjective measure of how strong the signal appears to be (see the definition of each of the numbers from 1 to 9). I do admit that many people use the S-meter reading as some kind of measure for giving the S of RST but officially the S of RST is not an S-meter value. On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:08 AM, The Smiths wrote: > > What a silly question.. Again, some of you guys just have to be so over > technical about EVERYTHING. I'm certain that sometimes being TOO smart can > be a detriment to your own self. This is an S meter, it's used by some to > give an S report. Part of an RST.. This isn't a scientific calibration > device.. If you're talking to someone in XYZ QTH and you have your antenna > pointed at XYZ's location, or you have an omni directional antenna and it's > receiving XYZ location at 4 S units, and You can hear them clearly and their > tone is correct.. They have an RS(T) of 54(9). > > > > Sorry dave, it's really just that simple. If you've set a "standard" for your > S meter during it's calibration then S 4 means 4.. Not oh my goodness is > there gain on my antenna, do I need to factor in his azimuth and the arrival > angle of his signal to my antenna.. JUST STOP, and enjoy your hobby for a > change, don't over think it. Or even worse, try to be technical to impress > people on the reflector. We all know that there are a lot of guys on here > that know a LOT about a LOT of things... But they don't need to try to > impress nor answer EVERYONE with their knowledge EVERY time. Save it for when > it really counts, not on how to read an S meter. > > > > > >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:27:40 -0700 >> From: xda...@cis-broadband.com >> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior >> >> >> Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss >> of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth >> relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately >> tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your >> property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in >> that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding >> yourself if you think differently. >> >> 73, >> Dave AB7E >> >> >> On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote: >>> I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your >>> advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good >>> advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all >>> contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole >>> 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted. >>> >>> I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual >>> signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this >>> much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the >>> 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it >>> too.. >>> >>> But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't >>> know what to tell the guy. >>> >>> If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can >>> to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets >>> directions from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked >>> for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people >>> asking in the wrong direction. >>> >>> >>> >>> The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF >>> gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on >>> my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long >>> until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig. >>> >>> >>> >>> Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S >>> meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the >>> Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have >>> the Sub receiv
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
What a silly question.. Again, some of you guys just have to be so over technical about EVERYTHING. I'm certain that sometimes being TOO smart can be a detriment to your own self. This is an S meter, it's used by some to give an S report. Part of an RST.. This isn't a scientific calibration device.. If you're talking to someone in XYZ QTH and you have your antenna pointed at XYZ's location, or you have an omni directional antenna and it's receiving XYZ location at 4 S units, and You can hear them clearly and their tone is correct.. They have an RS(T) of 54(9). Sorry dave, it's really just that simple. If you've set a "standard" for your S meter during it's calibration then S 4 means 4.. Not oh my goodness is there gain on my antenna, do I need to factor in his azimuth and the arrival angle of his signal to my antenna.. JUST STOP, and enjoy your hobby for a change, don't over think it. Or even worse, try to be technical to impress people on the reflector. We all know that there are a lot of guys on here that know a LOT about a LOT of things... But they don't need to try to impress nor answer EVERYONE with their knowledge EVERY time. Save it for when it really counts, not on how to read an S meter. > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:27:40 -0700 > From: xda...@cis-broadband.com > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > > > Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss > of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth > relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately > tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your > property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in > that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding > yourself if you think differently. > > 73, > Dave AB7E > > > On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote: > > I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your > > advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good > > advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all > > contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole > > 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted. > > > > I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual > > signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this > > much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the > > 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9. > > > > > > > > Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it > > too.. > > > > But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't > > know what to tell the guy. > > > > If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can > > to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets > > directions from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked > > for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people > > asking in the wrong direction. > > > > > > > > The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF > > gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on > > my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long > > until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig. > > > > > > > > Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S > > meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the > > Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have > > the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look > > like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer > > you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not > > just an "Ignore" your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter. > > > > > > > > 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400 > >> From: w3...@embarqmail.com > >> To: n...@comcast.net > >> CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > >> > >> Robert, > >> > >> You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. >
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
TheSmiths said: "559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent." Actually, this statement is inaccurate and the RST code never specifies S meter readings but this perception is a common misconception. 559 means Readability Excellent, Fairly Strong Signals, Perfect tone, no trace of ripple or modulation of any kind. The S-meter reading has little to do with the RST or RS report. RST is a subjective code and depends on an operator's opinion of the signal. An S-meter reading is a stand alone method of comparing relative signal strength that may help support an operator's opinion when needed. The RST code is fully explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RST_code 73, Bob K5WA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
I do understand that my statement below may not make sense for digital modes . Rich NU6T On 7/15/2010 6:58 AM, Richard Hill wrote: > I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on > this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your > ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same. > > Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm > hearing that the actual power stays the same. > > We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we > can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent "loudness" we hear > by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the > best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity > to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the > same effect. > > That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound like > something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It > seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are > receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that > is the result of more than the meter reading. > > Rich > NU6T > > On 7/15/2010 5:49 AM, Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote: > >> Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much feedback so fast! >> >> While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to use my S meter to give >> the Strength report and believe that an S7 signal should read S7 even if the >> RF gain is turned down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute >> and have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've heard many >> perfectly readable signals that sounded like they were S9 but were, to my >> surprise, an S3 or S5. Except for contests I like to send and receive >> accurate strength reports. >> >> Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and the S meter when it >> arrives. I'll post again once I've completed the alignment. Till then I'll >> be on the air enjoying my awesome K3! >> >> >> On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote: >> >> >>> Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S >>> meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the >>> Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have >>> the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look >>> like it's getting stronger. r. >>> >>> >>> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >> >> >> > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Aloha Peoples" I rarely ever give the other station an s meter reading, Instead I usually describe how I am receiving him. S meter readings dont seem to tell me how well I am understanding what is being said by the other station. Grandmaw Susan If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm AFA9SM USSV DHARMA --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Richard Hill wrote: > From: Richard Hill > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 3:58 AM > I don't really understand, but would > be interested in more discussion on > this. I think I understand that the apparent power of > a signal to your > ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power > is the same. > > Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these > days, but I'm > hearing that the actual power stays the same. > > We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think > that means we > can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent > "loudness" we hear > by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best > heard or for the > best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, > long proximity > to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil > 4/5 mics give the > same effect. > > That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound > like > something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter > reading is. It > seems that it is more important to tell the other op how > well you are > receiving their message (as apposed to their signal > strength) and that > is the result of more than the meter reading. > > Rich > NU6T > > On 7/15/2010 5:49 AM, Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote: > > Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much > feedback so fast! > > > > While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to > use my S meter to give the Strength report and believe that > an S7 signal should read S7 even if the RF gain is turned > down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute and > have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've > heard many perfectly readable signals that sounded > like they were S9 but were, to my surprise, an S3 or S5. > Except for contests I like to send and receive accurate > strength reports. > > > > Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and > the S meter when it arrives. I'll post again once I've > completed the alignment. Till then I'll be on the air > enjoying my awesome K3! > > > > > > On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote: > > > >> Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft > Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you > don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an > error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have > the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up > causing it to look like it's getting stronger. r. > >> > >> > > > __ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > > > > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Don I performed both functions and they pretty much delivered the expexted results. However, I noticed something I consider counter-intuitive. It is possible to engage PRE and ATT simultaneously. Is there any advantage to this? Paul, NU4C >From: Don Wilhelm >To: Robert Mitilieri - N9EF >Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >Sent: Thu, July 15, 2010 12:30:07 AM >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior >Robert, >You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. >If you have an S-3 noise level, the first attack is to turn off the >preamp - if that does not reduce the noise level enough, then turn the >Attenuator ON. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same. Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm hearing that the actual power stays the same. We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent "loudness" we hear by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the same effect. That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound like something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that is the result of more than the meter reading. Rich NU6T On 7/15/2010 5:49 AM, Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote: > Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much feedback so fast! > > While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to use my S meter to give > the Strength report and believe that an S7 signal should read S7 even if the > RF gain is turned down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute > and have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've heard many > perfectly readable signals that sounded like they were S9 but were, to my > surprise, an S3 or S5. Except for contests I like to send and receive > accurate strength reports. > > Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and the S meter when it > arrives. I'll post again once I've completed the alignment. Till then I'll > be on the air enjoying my awesome K3! > > > On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote: > >> Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S >> meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the >> Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have >> the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look >> like it's getting stronger. r. >> >> > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
The way I understand it, turning donw the RF Gain does not "improve" the signal's s-meter strength. The increasing level of the s-meter as you reduce the RF Gain indicates the level that a signal would need to attain in order to be heard. For example, if you turn the RF Gain to 12 o'clock you will only be able to detect signals that are approx S9+30db or greater. Personally, I would prefer that the s-meter not operate in this way in ABS mode. RF Gain should have no effect on the s-meter action when in ABS mode, just as ATT and PRE do not. 73, Drew AF2Z On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:03:19 +, The Smiths wrote: > > >The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF >gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my >K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until >everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig. > > > >Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter >calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on >causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub >receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's >getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of >them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an "Ignore" >your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter. > > > >559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Don, I don't see that to be the case. The action of the s-meter in ABS mode does change when the RF Gain has been reduced. If you turn the RF Gain to 12 o'clock the s-meter goes to S9+30db. 73, Drew AF2Z On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:34:22 -0400, Don W3FPR wrote: >Robert, > >The K3 does have a "cure", and that is to set the S-meter to ABS >(absolute) in the Configuration Menu (see the manual). With that >setting, the S-meter does not change with the PRE/ATT/RF Gain. > >73, >Don W3FPR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much feedback so fast! While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to use my S meter to give the Strength report and believe that an S7 signal should read S7 even if the RF gain is turned down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute and have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've heard many perfectly readable signals that sounded like they were S9 but were, to my surprise, an S3 or S5. Except for contests I like to send and receive accurate strength reports. Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and the S meter when it arrives. I'll post again once I've completed the alignment. Till then I'll be on the air enjoying my awesome K3! On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote: > > Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter > calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on > causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub > receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's > getting stronger. r. > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding yourself if you think differently. 73, Dave AB7E On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote: > I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your advice > about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good advice > for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all contesters, and > there are actually some of us that really hate that whole 599 5/9 report when > it's not warranted. > > I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual > signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this > much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the > 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9. > > > > Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it > too.. > > But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't > know what to tell the guy. > > If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can to > fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets directions > from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked for is, but > he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people asking in the > wrong direction. > > > > The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF > gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my > K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long > until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig. > > > > Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter > calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on > causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub > receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's > getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None > of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an > "Ignore" your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter. > > > > 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. > > >> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400 >> From: w3...@embarqmail.com >> To: n...@comcast.net >> CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior >> >> Robert, >> >> You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. >> Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter, >> but it is just good operating sense. >> >just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear > >> them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a >> not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy with >> some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them >> anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point. >> > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted. I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9. Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it too.. But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't know what to tell the guy. If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets directions from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people asking in the wrong direction. The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig. Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an "Ignore" your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter. 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent. > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400 > From: w3...@embarqmail.com > To: n...@comcast.net > CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior > > Robert, > > You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. > Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter, > but it is just good operating sense. just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear > them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a > not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy with > some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them > anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point. _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Robert, You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO. If you have an S-3 noise level, the first attack is to turn off the preamp - if that does not reduce the noise level enough, then turn the Attenuator ON. If the noise level is still so high as to be bothersome, turn the RF Gain control down until the noise level is low enough to be not a bother. What will you achieve by all that? - well, you will increase the dynamic range of your receiver - there is no sense in allowing the ambient noise to activate the AGC and reduce the receiver sensitivity. Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter, but it is just good operating sense. As far as the S-meter is concerned, either use S-meter Absolute setting on the K3 or just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy with some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point. The K3 provides S-meter calibration capability in the menu. Set it for your own preferences, but I am suggesting that you use the S-meter only for relative comparisons between signals (for the guy who is asking you to evaluate the front to back ratio for his beam antenna), and not as an absolute for giving S-readings to other stations - for that, use your ears. Consider that in a contest, everyone is 59 (or 5nn) - vary from that and the other op will have trouble copying you because he is expecting to hear the "59 or 5nn" in the rhythm of the exchange. 73, Don W3FPR Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote: > Increasing the RF gain does deflect the meter upwards. I should have > mentioned that there is an S3 noise floor. Here's the steps that I followed: > > Tune a signal that's peaking S7 with RF gain fully CW > Tune away from any signal (S3 noise) adjust the RF gain CCW until the meter > reads S5 > Tune that same signal that was peaking S7 but now he's peaking S9 +10db. > > If I then increase the RF gain the signal returns to peaking at S7. > > I can reproduce this behavior with signals at any level > > On Jul 14, 2010, at 10:34 PM, Garry Shapiro wrote: > > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Yes it does with respect to RF gain. --- On Wed, 7/14/10, Don Wilhelm wrote: The K3 does have a "cure", and that is to set the S-meter to ABS (absolute) in the Configuration Menu (see the manual). With that setting, the S-meter does not change with the PRE/ATT/RF Gain. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Increasing the RF gain does deflect the meter upwards. I should have mentioned that there is an S3 noise floor. Here's the steps that I followed: Tune a signal that's peaking S7 with RF gain fully CW Tune away from any signal (S3 noise) adjust the RF gain CCW until the meter reads S5 Tune that same signal that was peaking S7 but now he's peaking S9 +10db. If I then increase the RF gain the signal returns to peaking at S7. I can reproduce this behavior with signals at any level On Jul 14, 2010, at 10:34 PM, Garry Shapiro wrote: > In every radio I have had, reducing the RF gain deflects the Smeter upwards, > not downwards. > > On 7/14/2010 7:56 PM, Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote: >> >> While I've seen many post regarding S meter calibration I have a question to >> which I haven't found an answer in the archives. >> >> Let's say I'm listening to a signal that's peaking at S7. I usually decrease >> the RF gain so that, with no signal, the S meter reads about S5. This >> reduces the background noise. However when I do this on my K3, the signal >> that was peaking at S7 is now peaking at S9 +10db. Reducing the RF gain >> further shows the signal peaking near S9 +20db. I am accustomed to having >> the signal still peak at S7 since the signal strength hasn't actually >> increased at all. >> >> I'm still getting used to the K3 (s/n 4411). Is there a configuration >> parameter that I may have set incorrectly? >> >> Robert - N9EF >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >> __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
Robert, That is just the way the S-meter response works - it is the same on many receivers - the S-meter will indicate higher when the RF Gain is reduced. The K3 does have a "cure", and that is to set the S-meter to ABS (absolute) in the Configuration Menu (see the manual). With that setting, the S-meter does not change with the PRE/ATT/RF Gain. If you use the absolute S-meter setting, you may want to modify the S-meter calibration from that indicated in the manual. In other words, adjust the S-meter to read S-9 with a 50 uV signal imput with the Preamp OFF rather than ON as the manual indicates. The S-meter is a relative indication, and can be calibrated to give almost any reading you want with any given signal level. Set it to your preference whether that be as the manual suggests or as you understand how an S-meter should respond - there are no "rules", but Elecraft has adhered to the Collins 'standard' of S-9 equals a 50 uV signal level for its nominal (and default) settings. The Elecraft XG2 is an excellent source of s 50 uVsignal level. 73, Don W3FPR Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote: > While I've seen many post regarding S meter calibration I have a question to > which I haven't found an answer in the archives. > > Let's say I'm listening to a signal that's peaking at S7. I usually decrease > the RF gain so that, with no signal, the S meter reads about S5. This > reduces the background noise. However when I do this on my K3, the signal > that was peaking at S7 is now peaking at S9 +10db. Reducing the RF gain > further shows the signal peaking near S9 +20db. I am accustomed to having > the signal still peak at S7 since the signal strength hasn't actually > increased at all. > > I'm still getting used to the K3 (s/n 4411). Is there a configuration > parameter that I may have set incorrectly? > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
