Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
I have found that if I shift the passband I can still understand SSB even though the DSP filter says it is only 1.1 khz wide. Try it and the signal will be very clear once you hit the sweet spot. I think this is because the intelligence carrying portion of the voice is not necessarily in the center of the passband. Buck k4ia On 3/31/2014 10:52 AM, George Danner wrote: One of the things that Bell Labs found in adding loading coils to phone lines (to reduce the high frequencies) was that in an audio system if you reduce the high frequencies then you needed to also reduce the low frequencies to keep the intelligibility constant. Since a phone system needed intelligibility above fidelity; Bell Labs just decreased the coupling capacitors to reduce the low end while using the line loading coils to reduce the high frequencies. I tend to use lo-cut to improve "listen ability" when I cut the high end. I use a 1.8 kHz filter for a morning SSB net that has other nets 3 kHz away usually on both sides. Some of the transmitters on the adjacent frequencies can't fit in 5 kHz much less being 3 kHz away. The 1.8 kHz filter is the best solution - the filter skirts along with the DSP skirts help the most I can expect. I would recommend adjusting Hi-Cut for the interference and Lo-Cut for the best compromise on fidelity & intelligibility; if that switches in a tighter filter, then that might be needed. My 2 cents! 73 George AI4VZ -Original Message- From: Al For years I have heard folks state that 1.8 kHz is mandatory for SSB contesting... but I have never understood how one could put up with this narrow bandwidth for long. I need more information hitting my ears and am perfectly happy with letting the famous 'ear-brain' filter extract the maximum from that information. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to k...@aol.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
Just a thought, On SSB, you guys should try using LO & HI cut instead of shift and width. You won't look back and it will probally sound better. You can probably leave lo cut pretty much alone and vary hi cut. Roofing filters will come in automatically. Try it. 73 Mike R RIP- Mr 500. STP's Andy Granatelli from racing fans everywhere. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
actually loading coils were to reduce overall loss by helping to cancel the line capacity before amplifiers 1000 cycles was the frequency passed with best loss Characteristics the phones were designed to emphasise that frequency "whats that you say " making phone calls werent for sissies Bob K3DJC On Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:52:13 -0400 "George Danner" writes: > One of the things that Bell Labs found in adding loading coils to > phone > lines (to reduce the high frequencies) was that in an audio system > if you > reduce the high frequencies then you needed to also reduce the low > frequencies to keep the intelligibility constant. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
One of the things that Bell Labs found in adding loading coils to phone lines (to reduce the high frequencies) was that in an audio system if you reduce the high frequencies then you needed to also reduce the low frequencies to keep the intelligibility constant. Since a phone system needed intelligibility above fidelity; Bell Labs just decreased the coupling capacitors to reduce the low end while using the line loading coils to reduce the high frequencies. I tend to use lo-cut to improve "listen ability" when I cut the high end. I use a 1.8 kHz filter for a morning SSB net that has other nets 3 kHz away usually on both sides. Some of the transmitters on the adjacent frequencies can't fit in 5 kHz much less being 3 kHz away. The 1.8 kHz filter is the best solution - the filter skirts along with the DSP skirts help the most I can expect. I would recommend adjusting Hi-Cut for the interference and Lo-Cut for the best compromise on fidelity & intelligibility; if that switches in a tighter filter, then that might be needed. My 2 cents! 73 George AI4VZ -Original Message- From: Al For years I have heard folks state that 1.8 kHz is mandatory for SSB contesting... but I have never understood how one could put up with this narrow bandwidth for long. I need more information hitting my ears and am perfectly happy with letting the famous 'ear-brain' filter extract the maximum from that information. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
Hi Clive I had the same good experience with the 1.8kHz Inrad filter in the old FT-1000MP, so I moved that filter across to the K3 (with a change in mounting board)... and have not regretted it. Because the filter has such a restricted bandwidth, I configured the filter to switch in at a WIDTH setting of 1.9kHz to avoid the bandwidth being further narrowed by the DSP as well. The SHIFT setting is also very critical for the best voice intelligibility. My particular filter requires a fc setting of either 1.25 or 1.30kHz, and anything outside of that range sounds very noticeably worse. Once the 1.8kHz filter has been carefully set up, and its settings stored in the NORM II SSB memory for easy recall, the SHIFT and WIDTH controls hardly ever need to be touched... which is exactly what the SSB contester requires. 73 from Ian GM3SEK >-Original Message- >From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft- >boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Clive Lorton >Sent: 31 March 2014 10:58 >To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer > > >On 31 Mar 2014, at 06:47, Al Lorona wrote: > >> For years I have heard folks state that 1.8 kHz is mandatory for SSB >contesting... but I have never understood how one could put up with this >narrow bandwidth for long. I need more information hitting my ears and am >perfectly happy with letting the famous 'ear-brain' filter extract the >maximum from that information. > >Morning all, First post here from a new K3 owner. > >I have used a Inrad 1.8 kHz filter in my old Icom 756 and just loved it. I've >just built K3 8098 and find the 1.8kHz filter much more uncomfortable to >listen to in normal use. It is different beast. But I expect it will come into its >own when digging that weak signal out of the QRM! > >At the moment I'm just enjoying learning to drive it > >Clive G8POC > >__ >Elecraft mailing list >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > >This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >Message delivered to gm3...@ifwtech.co.uk __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
Was my post that awful? Clive G8POC On 31 Mar 2014, at 13:27, Tony McClenny wrote: > The user n...@n3me.net does not accept mail from your address. > > The headers of the message sent from your address are shown below: > > From cl...@thelortons.co.uk Mon Mar 31 07:27:58 2014 > Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.13]:52271) > by gator4128.hostgator.com with esmtps (UNKNOWN:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) > (Exim 4.80.1) > (envelope-from ) > id 1WUbJk-0004Pb-Tq > for n...@n3me.net; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 07:27:57 -0500 > Received: from clives-macbook.home > (host86-168-55-37.range86-168.btcentralplus.com [86.168.55.37]) > by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreue104) with ESMTP (Nemesis) > id 0Lucpk-1XChYo3V68-00zkbW; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:27:55 +0200 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer > From: Clive Lorton > In-Reply-To: > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:27:53 +0100 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Message-Id: <160e5322-fc71-4f97-a5b4-8789d5221...@thelortons.co.uk> > References: > To: Tony McClenny > X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) > X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:/f/toySd9mSX6ydHziOwMC/4hmgUcAxNBg54ZiIv70Q > 8Jd/SBG3iZzKpiu8Fv5E2U+1mWM/RROC7XzTANncy5ZoKoo8uU > VmLRTn1vqyXOw8pauhiruoPDaQnzB6zTSQCKsFYVibmw2fyYnK > GIUfUgD9q9w+Pzoid6/oQzZH6uJ13fNxYsN43UR40erhXtT6k8 > Ft9z1HS3WXNRN3urIZTRngifTK2bVJ4f9iIIJe1XyEc+fOZsqW > cuEq2z76rUAUDdFigktdqHMqGGLkbjS47dvX4reazb1LQWJ7Bl > 3VKlHhbXRVyLvZkWppa/IZP7+AyNU7OXJkNJgFUkfh6VVKLbdi > nYGBwQ2xp4M3DU8SnwmhS7aOrxPBE4/sD/Z7NZY1jUv3pZ9stK > BLVgwKZt765kwvVmvwxGjAcEEacnlEJkpQ= > X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 > X-Spam-Score: 0 > X-Spam-Bar: / > X-Spam-Flag: NO > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
On 31 Mar 2014, at 06:47, Al Lorona wrote: > For years I have heard folks state that 1.8 kHz is mandatory for SSB > contesting... but I have never understood how one could put up with this > narrow bandwidth for long. I need more information hitting my ears and am > perfectly happy with letting the famous 'ear-brain' filter extract the > maximum from that information. Morning all, First post here from a new K3 owner. I have used a Inrad 1.8 kHz filter in my old Icom 756 and just loved it. I’ve just built K3 8098 and find the 1.8kHz filter much more uncomfortable to listen to in normal use. It is different beast. But I expect it will come into its own when digging that weak signal out of the QRM! At the moment I’m just enjoying learning to drive it…... Clive G8POC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
Dave, I have had pretty much the same experience. I think I would have placed the 2.1 kHz passband that you settled on a bit higher, say, LO=0.30 and HI=2.40, or even LO=0.40 and HI=2.50, which is probably better matched to the majority of contesters' transmitted signals out there. But I realize that not everybody's ear is the same, and my settings could even result in a listener's fatigue in you. For years I have heard folks state that 1.8 kHz is mandatory for SSB contesting... but I have never understood how one could put up with this narrow bandwidth for long. I need more information hitting my ears and am perfectly happy with letting the famous 'ear-brain' filter extract the maximum from that information. This illustrates what I have just stated in another post: receiver settings are very specific to each operator. One size doesn't fit all. That's why, thank goodness, our rigs have so many wonderful controls that can be tweaked to sound 'just right'. Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
On Mar 30, 2014, at 4:30 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote: > Using only the 2.7 filter, I never experienced a case of adjacent-signal AGC > pumping, or any other negative issue during the contest. I think if an SSB > signal is so close to you that it is pumping your agc through the 2.7 filter, > the frequency is hopelessly splattered anyway, and you'd best be moving on. > I did narrow the DSP down by using HI CUT, and usually ran it at LOW=0.15 and > HIGH=2.25. I’ll echo this experience. I find the DSP filters to be stupendous. All I have for SSB roofing filter is the stock 2.7 kHz 5-pole filter. The heavy lifting is done in the DSP. Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASELMail: aa...@arrl.net Web: http://boringhamradiopart.blogspot.com Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!" -- Wilbur Wright, 1901 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
I have the 2.0 and 2.8 filters installed; I seldom get below 2.2-2.4 though but I'm not a contester. Was watching 20 SSB on my P3 a while ago. You could sure tell something changed at around midnight Zulu! 73, Phil w7ox On 3/30/14, 1:30 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote: I was in the WPX SSB contest this weekend, and wanted to try using just the 2.7 roofing filter, using only DSP to narrow the response below that. I previously have had the feeling that the 1.8 roofer was degrading speech intelligibility. The WPX is a QRM-fest of the first order. Everybody can work everybody, so the whole world is doing their own thing all the time. 15 meters was particularly bad, with almost nobody having a clear channel. Using only the 2.7 filter, I never experienced a case of adjacent-signal AGC pumping, or any other negative issue during the contest. I think if an SSB signal is so close to you that it is pumping your agc through the 2.7 filter, the frequency is hopelessly splattered anyway, and you'd best be moving on. I did narrow the DSP down by using HI CUT, and usually ran it at LOW=0.15 and HIGH=2.25. I could be persuaded to part with my pair of 1.8 filters, if someone is interested in them. Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, AZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
I’ve done all that. On some voices, distortion is minimal. On others, it is serious. Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, AZ From: Johnny Siu Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 5:29 PM To: Dave Hachadorian ; Reflector Elecraft Subject: K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer Hello Dave, I did have the same experience with 1.8Khz filter in the past. However, upon the guidance of my contest elmer, I played around the IF shift. By moving the centre position of the IF passband, you will find a sweet spot where you can hear the speech with minimal degrade but excellent selectivity. 73 Johnny VR2XMC 寄件人︰ Dave Hachadorian 收件人︰ Reflector Elecraft 傳送日期︰ 2014年03月31日 (週一) 4:30 AM 主題︰ [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer I was in the WPX SSB contest this weekend, and wanted to try using just the 2.7 roofing filter, using only DSP to narrow the response below that. I previously have had the feeling that the 1.8 roofer was degrading speech intelligibility. The WPX is a QRM-fest of the first order. Everybody can work everybody, so the whole world is doing their own thing all the time. 15 meters was particularly bad, with almost nobody having a clear channel. Using only the 2.7 filter, I never experienced a case of adjacent-signal AGC pumping, or any other negative issue during the contest. I think if an SSB signal is so close to you that it is pumping your agc through the 2.7 filter, the frequency is hopelessly splattered anyway, and you'd best be moving on. I did narrow the DSP down by using HI CUT, and usually ran it at LOW=0.15 and HIGH=2.25. I could be persuaded to part with my pair of 1.8 filters, if someone is interested in them. Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, AZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net/ Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to vr2...@yahoo.com.hk __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in WPX SSB with 2.7 roofer
That's been my experience too, Dave. SSB is not my forte ... severely compromised hearing ... but I do get into a small handful of phone contests [not WPX SSB, for the reasons you mentioned]. I had a borrowed 1.8 filter for awhile, and found that it really did degrade the audio. Conversely, I've never had a problem with strong adjacent signals using the 2.7 even though I've got a couple of close neighbor hams. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org On 3/30/2014 1:30 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote: Using only the 2.7 filter, I never experienced a case of adjacent-signal AGC pumping, or any other negative issue during the contest. I think if an SSB signal is so close to you that it is pumping your agc through the 2.7 filter, the frequency is hopelessly splattered anyway, and you'd best be moving on. I did narrow the DSP down by using HI CUT, and usually ran it at LOW=0.15 and HIGH=2.25. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
