Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[Edward R. Cole]

Well we have taken this off topic a bit.

Bill W4ZV writes of the advantages of the LP-100A over analog 
meters.  Definitely a nice piece of equipment that can do much more 
than a simple power meter.  However, it only reads to 54 MHz.  I also 
occupy 144/222/432/927/1296/2400/3400/10,368 MHz bands so I need to 
read power to 10-GHz.  With the Bird43 I can get up to 2.4 GHz with 
expensive elements (I have a 10K for 1100-1800 MHz).  Then I switch 
to my HP432A mw power meter which is limited to +10mw, but can read 
to 18 GHz. I have 900w directional couplers and coaxial attenuators 
for measuring higher power with the HP meter.

Also, I would not feel comfortable using the LP-100A at 50-foot in a 
light rain on my tower checking cable loss or power levels.  The Bird 
is the industry standard instrument for field use (inaccurate as it is).

So this is NOT and argument of what is "better".  If some day I can 
afford it, the LP-100 would be real nice in my shack.
For 99% of the readers on this reflector the LP-100A will suit them 
perfectly.  The other 1% of us have different/additional needs.

I suppose we have beat the Bird to death?
Oh joy, its snowing!



73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
==
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EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-?
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"Kits made by KL7UW" http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[Don Wilhelm]

Ed,

Yes, the most accurate is to use the 'scope with a 10X probe to measure 
the RF voltage across the dummy load.

No need to convert to RMS and all that - use this formula - Power = the 
square of the peak to peak RF voltage divided by 400 if the load is 50 
ohms (8R if other than 50 ohms).  You can substantiate that by formula 
manipulation - the sqrt of 2 terms fall out.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/14/2012 3:56 AM, Edward R. Cole wrote:
> There is only one way for me to determine what the accuracy
> is.   That is by observing the waveform across the dummy load with my
> scope, calculating Vrms from the peak-peak voltage and using that to
> determine power using V^2/R, assuming the load is not reactive.  Well
> I might do that out of curiosity.   That is probably the most
> accurate way for most hams to measure power (unless you are very rich
> and own a calorimeter).  I did power measurement at 500-KHz by using
> my scope since I have no elements that work below 2-MHz.  My 100w
> 500-KHz transmitter is equipped with an RF ammeter for
> measuring/monitoring power.
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[Bill W4ZV]

KL7UW wrote:

> I think the wrong impression has been taken of Bird's statement of 
accuracy.  I doubt the inaccuracy is a fixed amount that is the same 
at any reading.  More likely Bird does its calibrations at full scale 
and this is the accuracy that they will warrantee.  Seem more 
reasonable that the error is relative to the level of the 
reading.  The actual adjustment is a variable cap inside the 
element.  That and a resistor determine the level the element functions at.

The manufacturer's accuracy specification is what it is...not what you might
think is "reasonable".  Most analog meters are calibrated in % full scale
due to the inherent error in visually interpreting a needle on an analog
scale.  This visual error is constant at all readings, hence the
specification is a percentage of full scale.  This is exactly why DMMs
replaced analog meters (e.g. Simpson, Triplett, etc) decades ago.  

> But that being said, I have no proof the element in question is any 
better than reading 25w +/- 1.25w.  Ideally, I would have sent the 
meter to Radiodan to be calibrated with the element.  Then he could 
have specified what the accuracy was for the calibration.

The LP-100A is factory calibrated (NIST traceable in 11 frequency bands) to
5% of reading (3% typical).  As stated before, the key difference with the
analog Bird is that accuracy is specified in % of reading...not % of full
scale.  

> There is only one way for me to determine what the accuracy 
is.   That is by observing the waveform across the dummy load with my 
scope, calculating Vrms from the peak-peak voltage and using that to 
determine power using V^2/R, assuming the load is not reactive.  Well 
I might do that out of curiosity.   That is probably the most 
accurate way for most hams to measure power (unless you are very rich 
and own a calorimeter).  I did power measurement at 500-KHz by using 
my scope since I have no elements that work below 2-MHz.  My 100w 
500-KHz transmitter is equipped with an RF ammeter for 
measuring/monitoring power.

This is essentially what the LP-100A does using an A/D converter and
microprocessor.  Besides being much more accurate, it provides many other
useful features such as Z, R, X, SWR, SWR and phase versus frequency, Smith
Chart output, translates coupler load Z to antenna load Z (for remote
measurements), peak-to-average (useful for measuring SSB compression), etc. 
Measurement range is 1-3000 Watts over 1.8-54 MHz with the standard coupler
(higher power available as options) at full rated accuracy.

> For normal daily ham measurements I am willing to assume that the new 
element is my most accurate.  Will it matter much if I am off 
1.25w?  BTW it could be better than that.  That is the worse-case 
specification.

I can understand being locked in to Bird because of your significant
investment in 16 slugs (typically $60-80 each on eBay not counting the Bird
43 itself).  However, for anyone considering a truly state-of-the art
Wattmeter, it's hard to beat N8LP's LP-100A because it does so much more
than simply measuring power.  If you add up the total cost of a Bird plus
multiple slugs to cover the same power ranges, the LP-100A is a steal.  Like
all of Larry's products (LP-PAN, LP-Bridge, etc) the engineering and support
for the LP-100A is first rate (e.g. providing a customer upgrade path from
the original LP-100 to the LP-100A).

http://www.telepostinc.com/  

I have no connection with Larry other than being a very satisfied customer
with several of his products.

73,  Bill  W4ZV


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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[Adrian]

I have one of these installed in my Bird 43, from ebay;

 


Bird 43 Wattmeter PEP Adaptor Kit - Thruline

Work with CD-GS Dielectric-Collins-Drake-Heath & others



Item condition:

New



Time left:

2d 17h (Mar 16, 201219:25:21 PDT)




 

 



Price:

US $59.95





 

Has a 2x and 5x range (adjustable to other multipliers, I have mine setup 2x
& 4 x.

Pep and avg readings too, works v-well and excellent value. Installed mine
over a year ago,

and no issues .

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bird-43-Wattmeter-PEP-Adaptor-Kit-Thruline-/22097011
3232?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

&hash=item3372d858d0#ht_985wt_932

 

Adrian . vk4tux

 

From: Edward R. Cole [via Elecraft]
[mailto:ml-node+s365791n7371108...@n2.nabble.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2012 5:59 PM
To: vk4tux
Subject: Re: KX3 and Data modes

 

OK, I guess I need to repeat what I said.  The 25H is SPECIAL order 
from Radiodan W7RF 
<[hidden email]>, who has the 
ability to run NBS traceable calibration on these elements. 

Any Bird element can be modified to a different power range (if you 
do a search you should find some sites that talk to this).  But most 
of us do not want to dig into one that far. 

I think the wrong impression has been taken of Bird's statement of 
accuracy.  I doubt the inaccuracy is a fixed amount that is the same 
at any reading.  More likely Bird does its calibrations at full scale 
and this is the accuracy that they will warrantee.  Seem more 
reasonable that the error is relative to the level of the 
reading.  The actual adjustment is a variable cap inside the 
element.  That and a resistor determine the level the element functions at. 

But that being said, I have no proof the element in question is any 
better than reading 25w +/- 1.25w.  Ideally, I would have sent the 
meter to Radiodan to be calibrated with the element.  Then he could 
have specified what the accuracy was for the calibration. 

But this is a brand-new element, freshly calibrated.  Should I doubt 
it in favor of my 35 year old 100H element?  Especially since 
resolution of reading 12w is much worse on the 100 scale than on the 25
scale. 

There is only one way for me to determine what the accuracy 
is.   That is by observing the waveform across the dummy load with my 
scope, calculating Vrms from the peak-peak voltage and using that to 
determine power using V^2/R, assuming the load is not reactive.  Well 
I might do that out of curiosity.   That is probably the most 
accurate way for most hams to measure power (unless you are very rich 
and own a calorimeter).  I did power measurement at 500-KHz by using 
my scope since I have no elements that work below 2-MHz.  My 100w 
500-KHz transmitter is equipped with an RF ammeter for 
measuring/monitoring power. 

For normal daily ham measurements I am willing to assume that the new 
element is my most accurate.  Will it matter much if I am off 
1.25w?  BTW it could be better than that.  That is the worse-case 
specification. 



73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 
== 
BP40IQ   500 KHz - 10-GHz   www.kl7uw.com 
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-? 
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [hidden email] 
"Kits made by KL7UW" http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm
== 
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[Edward R. Cole]

OK, I guess I need to repeat what I said.  The 25H is SPECIAL order 
from Radiodan W7RF
<rfpo...@radiodan.com>, who has the 
ability to run NBS traceable calibration on these elements.

Any Bird element can be modified to a different power range (if you 
do a search you should find some sites that talk to this).  But most 
of us do not want to dig into one that far.

I think the wrong impression has been taken of Bird's statement of 
accuracy.  I doubt the inaccuracy is a fixed amount that is the same 
at any reading.  More likely Bird does its calibrations at full scale 
and this is the accuracy that they will warrantee.  Seem more 
reasonable that the error is relative to the level of the 
reading.  The actual adjustment is a variable cap inside the 
element.  That and a resistor determine the level the element functions at.

But that being said, I have no proof the element in question is any 
better than reading 25w +/- 1.25w.  Ideally, I would have sent the 
meter to Radiodan to be calibrated with the element.  Then he could 
have specified what the accuracy was for the calibration.

But this is a brand-new element, freshly calibrated.  Should I doubt 
it in favor of my 35 year old 100H element?  Especially since 
resolution of reading 12w is much worse on the 100 scale than on the 25 scale.

There is only one way for me to determine what the accuracy 
is.   That is by observing the waveform across the dummy load with my 
scope, calculating Vrms from the peak-peak voltage and using that to 
determine power using V^2/R, assuming the load is not reactive.  Well 
I might do that out of curiosity.   That is probably the most 
accurate way for most hams to measure power (unless you are very rich 
and own a calorimeter).  I did power measurement at 500-KHz by using 
my scope since I have no elements that work below 2-MHz.  My 100w 
500-KHz transmitter is equipped with an RF ammeter for 
measuring/monitoring power.

For normal daily ham measurements I am willing to assume that the new 
element is my most accurate.  Will it matter much if I am off 
1.25w?  BTW it could be better than that.  That is the worse-case 
specification.



73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
==
BP40IQ   500 KHz - 10-GHz   www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com
"Kits made by KL7UW" http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm
==
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[vk4tux]

Bob, 
Saw your callsign, and would like to mention that if you ever
develop a hand mic for the K3 etc, please let us know.

The ic-7 mic kit I got from you years back works A1.  Sorry for being
OT. Hope you enjoy the KX3.

Adrian ... vk4tux

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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[AB5N]

Dave-

The digital mode I find most usable and robust is Olivia. It is quite a bit
better than PSK31
and sounds great too. MultiPSK is a wonderful free program that has
virtually all
digital modes. A small netbook would be ideal to pair with the KX-3.
5 watts and a good antenna will be very effective with Olivia.

I just have to stop thinking about the KX-3 -and the day will arrive sooner!

Bob-AB5N

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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[kevinr]

Alaska is easy copy for me as well as Phil, who is located further south 
of me in Oregon.  My doublet, which runs N-S, is in an inverted V 
configuration which does help 'round out' its reception pattern.  I am 
not sure why but QRP signals from Palmer are normally strong.  Juneau 
was problematic this morning but we have had some unusual conditions the 
last week plus a time change.
Kevin.  KD5ONS

On 3/13/2012 12:23 PM, Phillip Shepard wrote:
> For reference purposes, when Ed checks into the SSB net with me, I usually
> have my 2-el Quad pointed east, broadside to his direction (north).  I
> usually hear him OK at his 12+/- watts.
>
> Phil, NS7P
>
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Edward R. Cole
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:59 AM
> To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes
>
> ...
>
> I have been checking into the Elecraft SSB Net fairly regularly and
> being copied by Phil, NS7P who is 1620 miles from me.  I run an old
> Hygain TH3mk4 tribander at 50-foot which helps.  Now I have a new HF
> amp which I have been running at 200w but can run up to 270w with
> 11.5w drive.  That was necessary to make it last weekend during the
> solar flare.
>
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[Phillip Shepard]

For reference purposes, when Ed checks into the SSB net with me, I usually
have my 2-el Quad pointed east, broadside to his direction (north).  I
usually hear him OK at his 12+/- watts.

Phil, NS7P

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Edward R. Cole
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:59 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes


Regarding the effectivity of the KX3 on SSB, I can relate the
effectivity of the K3/10 on SSB (equivalent RF power).  I previously
thought I was running about 15w on 20m but with a new element for my
Bird43 I know that is was actually 11.5w.  CW benefits from the
effective reduction in bandwidth (50-Hz) that many top CW ops exhibit
which offers up to 17 dB advantage.  Say you have an average of
250-Hz and that advantage is 10-dB.  JT65 has a theoretical 30-dB
advantage and practically one could say 26 dB.  Other narrow-band
digital modes should offer increased performance, also.  QRSS does by
the fact the signal is averaged over long time periods.

I have been checking into the Elecraft SSB Net fairly regularly and
being copied by Phil, NS7P who is 1620 miles from me.  I run an old
Hygain TH3mk4 tribander at 50-foot which helps.  Now I have a new HF
amp which I have been running at 200w but can run up to 270w with
11.5w drive.  That was necessary to make it last weekend during the
solar flare.


73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
==
BP40IQ   500 KHz - 10-GHz   www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com
"Kits made by KL7UW" http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm
==
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[Doug Smith]

There are a 25H elements in existence -- just google "bird 25H".

Here's a couple:
   http://www.ebay.com/itm/370381238917
   http://www.chuckmartin.com/search/25H

I think that bird does not stock them but will be happy to make them on 
demand.  Certainly, they have made a lot of them in the past. They would 
also be happy to calibrate an existing unit.

I have no doubt that the original poster has what he says he has.

73,
-Doug, W7KF


On 03/13/2012 12:51 PM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> Since Bird does not advertise a 25H, I don't know what that is and as 
> far as I know they have never made a 25 watt element that is for HF. 
>  They do make a 25A,B,C,D &E which cover 25 to 1000 mHz in 5 bands, 
> but the lowest element for HF is the 50H.  A 25H would imply a 25 watt 
> 2-30 mHz element which may have been manufactured during the 70 or 
> more years since the Bird 43 came out in which case the range would be 
> 10.25 to 12.5 watts if the element and meter are in spec.   The 
> current Bird chart states that a 25 watt element is not available.
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart
> 
> **
>
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[Mike Harris]

I think the frequency range being discussed is MHz not mHz.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 13/03/2012 15:51, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> Since Bird does not advertise a 25H, I don't know what that is and as far as 
> I know they have never made a 25 watt element that is for HF.  They do make a 
> 25A,B,C,D&E which cover 25 to 1000 mHz in 5 bands, but the lowest element for 
> HF is the 50H.  A 25H would imply a 25 watt 2-30 mHz element which may have 
> been manufactured during the 70 or more years since the Bird 43 came out in 
> which case the range would be 10.25 to 12.5 watts if the element and meter 
> are in spec.   The current Bird chart states that a 25 watt element is not 
> available.
>
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ&  Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[Don Wilhelm]

Yes, Ed did make that statement BUT ---

The freshly calibrated slug does not make any difference - read and 
understand the specification correctly -  the accuracy is speced at +/- 
5% OF FULL SCALE right after calibration.  So the error with that slug 
is 1.25 watts - and that applies anywhere on the scale.
A reading of 11.5 watts can be anywhere between 10.25 watts and 12.75 watts.
That kind of specification is typical of analog wattmeters - they all 
have a spec in a percentage of full scale.

Many good digital wattmeters have a spec that is a percentage of the 
reading rather than a percentage of full scale.

I have ranted about those facts of wattmeters many times on this reflector.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/13/2012 2:33 PM, Doug Smith wrote:
> I think he stated earlier that he was using a freshly calibrated 25H
> element.
>
> 73,
> -Doug, W7KF
> http://www.w7kf.com
>
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[WILLIS COOKE]

Since Bird does not advertise a 25H, I don't know what that is and as far as I 
know they have never made a 25 watt element that is for HF.  They do make a 
25A,B,C,D &E which cover 25 to 1000 mHz in 5 bands, but the lowest element for 
HF is the 50H.  A 25H would imply a 25 watt 2-30 mHz element which may have 
been manufactured during the 70 or more years since the Bird 43 came out in 
which case the range would be 10.25 to 12.5 watts if the element and meter are 
in spec.   The current Bird chart states that a 25 watt element is not 
available.
 
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke 
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart



 From: Doug Smith 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes
 
I think he stated earlier that he was using a freshly calibrated 25H 
element.

73,
-Doug, W7KF
http://www.w7kf.com


On 03/13/2012 12:24 PM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> How do you know that the Bird measurement is actually 11.5 watts?  The 
> accuracy claimed by Bird for a new element is +/- 5% of full scale.  If you 
> have a 50 watt element your reading is between 9 and 14 watts.  If you have a 
> 100 watt element it is between 6.5 and 16.5 watts.  
>  
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ&  Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[Doug Smith]

I think he stated earlier that he was using a freshly calibrated 25H 
element.

73,
-Doug, W7KF
http://www.w7kf.com


On 03/13/2012 12:24 PM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> How do you know that the Bird measurement is actually 11.5 watts?  The 
> accuracy claimed by Bird for a new element is +/- 5% of full scale.  If you 
> have a 50 watt element your reading is between 9 and 14 watts.  If you have a 
> 100 watt element it is between 6.5 and 16.5 watts.  
>   
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ&  Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[WILLIS COOKE]

How do you know that the Bird measurement is actually 11.5 watts?  The accuracy 
claimed by Bird for a new element is +/- 5% of full scale.  If you have a 50 
watt element your reading is between 9 and 14 watts.  If you have a 100 watt 
element it is between 6.5 and 16.5 watts.  
 
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke 
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart



 From: Edward R. Cole 
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:59 AM
Subject: [Elecraft]  KX3 and Data modes
 
Regarding the effectivity of the KX3 on SSB, I can relate the 
effectivity of the K3/10 on SSB (equivalent RF power).  I previously 
thought I was running about 15w on 20m but with a new element for my 
Bird43 I know that is was actually 11.5w.  CW benefits from the 
effective reduction in bandwidth (50-Hz) that many top CW ops exhibit 
which offers up to 17 dB advantage.  Say you have an average of 
250-Hz and that advantage is 10-dB.  JT65 has a theoretical 30-dB 
advantage and practically one could say 26 dB.  Other narrow-band 
digital modes should offer increased performance, also.  QRSS does by 
the fact the signal is averaged over long time periods.

I have been checking into the Elecraft SSB Net fairly regularly and 
being copied by Phil, NS7P who is 1620 miles from me.  I run an old 
Hygain TH3mk4 tribander at 50-foot which helps.  Now I have a new HF 
amp which I have been running at 200w but can run up to 270w with 
11.5w drive.  That was necessary to make it last weekend during the 
solar flare.


73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
==
BP40IQ   500 KHz - 10-GHz  www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com
"Kits made by KL7UW" http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm
==
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 and Data modes

[Tony Estep]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:56 AM, David Stratton  wrote:
>...Will the KX3 be nearly as effective
>
> using data modes as it will be using CW?...

Dave, for miles-per-watt the king of the hill is JT-65HF. (However,
it's not a whole lot of fun IMHO) Theoretically one can communicate
with a signal path about 6 db weaker than needed for CW.

PSK and CW are about on a par theoretically. For SSB the signal path
has to be about 9 db better than for CW or PSK. Of course, the above
applies to any radio, KX3 or otherwise, QRP or QRO.

Many hams have great fun using SSB with low-power radios. I guess I
come from the other universe. Of the thousands of QRP contacts I've
made, only one was on SSB. It was with Martti, OH2BH, who patiently
spent about 3 minutes digging to get my call, one letter at a time.
After that one I went back to CW.

Tony KT0NY




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