Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?]
On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 04:35:24PM -0700, John, KI6WX wrote: I thought about that option. However, if you are going to use CW input and output, why not just send CW in the first place. CW probably offers better weak signal performance than FSK31. Most people don't do CW because of it's performance, they use it because it's a lot of fun. Someone thinking that CW is the greatest thing since sliced bread will never use other modes anyway. But for those interested in casual use of other modes, translation from and to CW may be an option. Regards Uz -- Ullrich von Bassewitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?]
Uz, CW at 31 WPM is a little fast for me. I suppose I could get my code speed up, but basically I agree with John. I tried receiving some PSK31 using a FSK31 demodulator last night with the hope that maybe it would decode something, but no joy. However, a FSK demodulator should nearly as easy to implement as a CW detector/converter. You could come up with something the size of the MFJ CW reader with its small display. However, again, who would you talk to? There's currently no FSK31 on the air. Make it also do PSK31, then you could use it with the Dave Benson's Small Wonder PSK31 series, the K2 or similar portable rigs. Have provision to plug in regular keyboard. I have a 11 regular keyboard I use for portable operations. There probably would be a good market for a converter/display like that. Why tie it to the KX1, or FSK31? 73's Chas At 04:46 AM 10/9/2004, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote: On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 04:35:24PM -0700, John, KI6WX wrote: I thought about that option. However, if you are going to use CW input and output, why not just send CW in the first place. CW probably offers better weak signal performance than FSK31. Most people don't do CW because of it's performance, they use it because it's a lot of fun. Someone thinking that CW is the greatest thing since sliced bread will never use other modes anyway. But for those interested in casual use of other modes, translation from and to CW may be an option. Regards ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?]
On Thu, Oct 07, 2004 at 10:35:04PM -0700, John, KI6WX wrote: A KX1 could trivially generate a FSK31 signal. Decoding it might require a more powerful processor, but is doable. The interesting question is how you interface the input and output to the operator. Just an idea, and maybe a stupid one: Why not translate the in- and output to morse? Most KX1 owners are proficient in morse, and it would remove the need for an external display. Just some more software is needed... Regards Uz -- Ullrich von Bassewitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?]
John, I would think the first step should be to add a reactance modulator and simple interface to a computer sound card, ala the psk20, to the KX1 and use it with an ordinary computer, running a program like MixW. Mixw supports FSK31 by sending an FM modulated signal via the computer sound card to the mike input of a transceiver. For example, I can operate FSK31 on my K2 now; I just have to select it in MixW. I have a simple interface made up. Anyone can do this with any rig that operates on PSK31. The only difference is that the KX1 finals would operate class C, and the other rigs finals would operate class AB or some other linear mode. Of course that means you carry a LapTop with you when you go portable, but some have stated that isn't a problem. To have Elecraft to make a small keyboard and display that would plug into a KX1 type radio and allow if to transmit and receive FSK31, seems to be reinventing the computer. HP, Dell, etc do it pretty well, Yes I'd like to have one, but from Elecraft's point of view I'm not sure there is much of a market for that. Also, I'm not sure who you would talk to, as I have never seen FSK31 used, but maybe we could start an Elecraft net. 73, Chas, W1CG At 01:35 AM 10/8/2004, John, KI6WX wrote: The original PSK31 implementation included an option for FSK31. Theoretically, PSK31 should provide a 2-3 dB improvement in signal to noise ratio over FSK31. In practice, it is necessary to back off the power amplifier by a few dB to keep from generating an excessively wide signal, whereas FSK31 can be run in a class C amp at full power (as long as your amplifier can handle transmitting a continuous carrier). This difference can negate the improved SNR of PSK31. Since may of the digital mode software products support FSK31, it would be an interesting experiment to test its efficiency in a real communication system. A KX1 could trivially generate a FSK31 signal. Decoding it might require a more powerful processor, but is doable. The interesting question is how you interface the input and output to the operator. A display and keyboard would require a larger package or a separate module that plugged into a KX1. There are some small keyboards and displays that would work for this type of application. So perhaps we ought to ask Elecraft to make a small keyboard and display that would plug into a KX1 type radio and allow if to transmit and receive FSK31. It would even be a nicer option if you could plug it into a K2 and transceive both FSK31 and PSK31. -John KI6WX - Original Message - From: wayne burdick [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, it may be possible to operate the KX1 in any low-data-rate, dual-tone FSK mode. This is compatible with a class-C final amp, and should require only a firmware change. The KX1's key jack would serve as the data input/output port for connection to a computer. Unfortunately FSK (e.g. traditional RTTY) is not quite as popular as PSK31 for QRP use, even though good reliability is possible with some variants. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?]
Chas; You don't need to add a reactance modulator to the KX1. The AD9834 DDS will directly generate FSK. It would almost be a trivial mod for Elecraft to add a firmware option for FSK31 that is activated through the key jack. A computer is a lot heavier to lug around than a KX1. A small lightweight portable keyboard and display would be much more compatible. The marketing issue would be cost. It would probably cost a substantial fraction of the KX1 price to sell such an option. -John - Original Message - From: Charles Greene [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 3:58 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?] John, I would think the first step should be to add a reactance modulator and simple interface to a computer sound card, ala the psk20, to the KX1 and use it with an ordinary computer, running a program like MixW. Mixw supports FSK31 by sending an FM modulated signal via the computer sound card to the mike input of a transceiver. For example, I can operate FSK31 on my K2 now; I just have to select it in MixW. I have a simple interface made up. Anyone can do this with any rig that operates on PSK31. The only difference is that the KX1 finals would operate class C, and the other rigs finals would operate class AB or some other linear mode. Of course that means you carry a LapTop with you when you go portable, but some have stated that isn't a problem. To have Elecraft to make a small keyboard and display that would plug into a KX1 type radio and allow if to transmit and receive FSK31, seems to be reinventing the computer. HP, Dell, etc do it pretty well, Yes I'd like to have one, but from Elecraft's point of view I'm not sure there is much of a market for that. Also, I'm not sure who you would talk to, as I have never seen FSK31 used, but maybe we could start an Elecraft net. 73, Chas, W1CG ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?]
The original PSK31 implementation included an option for FSK31. Theoretically, PSK31 should provide a 2-3 dB improvement in signal to noise ratio over FSK31. In practice, it is necessary to back off the power amplifier by a few dB to keep from generating an excessively wide signal, whereas FSK31 can be run in a class C amp at full power (as long as your amplifier can handle transmitting a continuous carrier). This difference can negate the improved SNR of PSK31. Since may of the digital mode software products support FSK31, it would be an interesting experiment to test its efficiency in a real communication system. A KX1 could trivially generate a FSK31 signal. Decoding it might require a more powerful processor, but is doable. The interesting question is how you interface the input and output to the operator. A display and keyboard would require a larger package or a separate module that plugged into a KX1. There are some small keyboards and displays that would work for this type of application. So perhaps we ought to ask Elecraft to make a small keyboard and display that would plug into a KX1 type radio and allow if to transmit and receive FSK31. It would even be a nicer option if you could plug it into a K2 and transceive both FSK31 and PSK31. -John KI6WX - Original Message - From: wayne burdick [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, it may be possible to operate the KX1 in any low-data-rate, dual-tone FSK mode. This is compatible with a class-C final amp, and should require only a firmware change. The KX1's key jack would serve as the data input/output port for connection to a computer. Unfortunately FSK (e.g. traditional RTTY) is not quite as popular as PSK31 for QRP use, even though good reliability is possible with some variants. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?]
FSK may be easier to do technically, but what's the point if you can't make any contacts? I think it needs to do PSK. There isn't enough MFSK activity. And the trouble with RTTY is, weak QRP signals aren't as copyable as MFSK and PSK signals, and just to compound it, many of those who operate RTTY use high power so you can hear them but they can't hear you, and your little signal will get swamped by their big ones. Only PSK has the high enough activity levels to guarantee that, if the band's open, there will be some activity, and you have a good chance of actually working the people you hear. -- Julian, G4ILO (RSGB, ARRL) G4ILO's Shack: http://www.tech-pro.net/g4ilo Leigh L Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to see MFSK rather than RTTY. I think a PIC-based decoder for MFSK, or a Pocket PC or Palm one, would certainly be within the CPU bounds. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?]
On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Julian, G4ILO wrote: FSK may be easier to do technically, but what's the point if you can't make any contacts? I think it needs to do PSK. There isn't enough MFSK activity. And the trouble with RTTY is, weak QRP signals aren't as copyable as MFSK and PSK signals, and just to compound it, many of those who operate RTTY use high power so you can hear them but they can't hear you, and your little signal will get swamped by their big ones. Only PSK has the high enough activity levels to guarantee that, if the band's open, there will be some activity, and you have a good chance of actually working the people you hear. I think that consideration must be given to what qrp digital mode will work best in voew of the ARRL's proposel bandwidth related bandplan proposal. Thom - k3hrn http://www.baltimorehon.com/Home of the Baltimore Lexicon http://www.tlchost.net/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?]
I would also express my huge interest in a mini-qrp rig (KX1/K1/etc) that is multi-band with a built-in antenna tuner for digital modes (PSK-31/MFSK/etc). My KX1 is a superb radio. I absolutely love it and rate it a strong 9 out of 10. To make 10, and be used much more for me personally, it would need (1) the ability to do digital modes, (2) more frequency memories, and (3) computer interface for programming and rig control (which sort of goes along with digital modes, and sort of doesn't!) Okay, so my wish list might not completely be consistent with a trail radio and the design goals of the KX1. No problem, I'm flexible. Add my requested features to the K1 instead and I will reply with my MasterCard number instantly! Or maybe a wonderful new Elecraft product focused on QRP digital modes? 72/73's Doug N7BNT KX1 # 731 wayne burdick wrote: Hi Eric, Great idea, but the KX1's final amplifier operates class C. To make the KX1 transmit on SSB would require class AB PA bias and the addition of a balanced modulator. This is not readily accomplished with either internal mods or an external adapter. However, it may be possible to operate the KX1 in any low-data-rate, dual-tone FSK mode. This is compatible with a class-C final amp, and should require only a firmware change. The KX1's key jack would serve as the data input/output port for connection to a computer. Unfortunately FSK (e.g. traditional RTTY) is not quite as popular as PSK31 for QRP use, even though good reliability is possible with some variants. Would this be of interest? 73, Wayne On Oct 2, 2004, at 12:32 PM, Eric Ward wrote: When I was tuning around today on my KX1, I heard the usual strong warble around 14.070 and I got the brilliant idea to: plug a patch cord from the KX1 headphone output to my soundcard input, launch PSK31 Deluxe, crack open the AF gain, and boom, 5 QSOs popped up right away. I know the thinking on omitting an SSB option from the KX1 is because voice doesn't typically work reliably below about 10W, and an SSB board wouldn't fit in the KX1 case. But like CW, PSK31 can work like a champ even at 100s of mW. So how about an Elecraft-designed-and-produced *outboard* SSB adapter for the KX1, designed specifically for PSK31? On biz trips, I usually have my KX1 and laptop--it would be great to take along one more little black box and be able to work PSK31, while making use of the KX1's KXAT1 capability to match a hotel room random wire on multiple bands. (The Small Wonder Labs PSK series looks exceedingly cool, but is rock-bound to a single band and requires an external tuner for non-resonant antennas.) Good idea? Dumb idea? 73, Eric N0HHS KX1 #670 --- http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?]
Not REALLY being interested in SSB, I was fascinated by the I0CG conversion
for the K1, but only for PSK. As far as a new rig from Elecraft, I'd be more
interested in one similar to the K1, but with CW and PSK capabilities.
Filter wise, possibly a frequency agile receiver filter bandpass
bandwidth (1.5 khz-.05 khz) and bandpass center frequency variable
over whatever the audio range would be (500-2500 Hz?)
{pipe dreams?}
73,
Sandy W5TVW
- Original Message -
From: Julian, G4ILO [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Elecraft List elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: KX1 PSK31? [how about FSK?]
| This could be accomplished with a K1 using I0CG's SSB modifications
| (http://it.geocities.com/giulianoi0cg/i0cg_home_page.html). It's a pity
| Elecraft didn't take this idea and create an official K1 SSB for those
| of us not brave enough to do it the hard way like I0CG.
|
| I suppose a multi-mode QRP rig in a KX1-sized package would be even
| cooler, but I guess it would need a lot of SMD circuitry to make it
| feasible.
| --
| Julian, G4ILO (RSGB, ARRL)
| G4ILO's Shack: http://www.tech-pro.net/g4ilo
|
| Doug Forman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
|
| I would also express my huge interest in a mini-qrp rig (KX1/K1/etc)
| that is multi-band with a built-in antenna tuner for digital modes
| (PSK-31/MFSK/etc).
|
| ___
| Elecraft mailing list
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|
|
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