Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
I'm going to add that nearly every UPS made is meant to bridge the time between when the power goes out, and the (automatic) generator starts. If you don't have a generator, the UPS signals the computer(s) so that they can shut down gracefully and turn the UPS off. The (typically AGM lead-acid) batteries are sized for maybe 15 minutes, which is way too fast. Drawing a lead-acid battery flat in 15 minutes will kill it in only a few cycles. What I did as part of my ISP was to remove the batteries from my UPSes and replace 7 or 12Ah batteries with 100Ah batteries outside the case. That didn't get me to the 10 hours for maximum battery life, but it got me to 8 hours. Jim's suggestion also lets you size the battery to run all the gear for more than a few minutes. 73 -- Lynn On 8/30/2017 8:55 AM, Jim Brown wrote: A FAR better way to provide UPS for radio gear is a 12V deep discharge lead acid battery or 14.4V LiFePO4 that is float charged by a suitable power supply. And as has been discussed several times, LiFePO4 batteries have the major advantage that their operating voltage stays above 13V for most of their discharge curve, while lead-acid batteries are below 12V for most of their discharge curve. This system is as quiet as the power supply used to float-charge the battery. With either battery type, care must be taken to not overcharge the battery. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
There are also UPSes meant for extended runtimes that are a little less brutal on the batteries. One Upon a Time, I had a couple racks of APC SmartUPS 2000 units with daisychained batteries to give extended holdup to a couple of racks of telecom and server hw. No clue how RF noisy those units are, though. On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT < kx...@coldrockshotbrooms.com> wrote: > I'm going to add that nearly every UPS made is meant to bridge the time > between when the power goes out, and the (automatic) generator starts. > > If you don't have a generator, the UPS signals the computer(s) so that > they can shut down gracefully and turn the UPS off. > > The (typically AGM lead-acid) batteries are sized for maybe 15 minutes, > which is way too fast. Drawing a lead-acid battery flat in 15 minutes will > kill it in only a few cycles. > > What I did as part of my ISP was to remove the batteries from my UPSes and > replace 7 or 12Ah batteries with 100Ah batteries outside the case. > > That didn't get me to the 10 hours for maximum battery life, but it got me > to 8 hours. > > Jim's suggestion also lets you size the battery to run all the gear for > more than a few minutes. > > 73 -- Lynn > > On 8/30/2017 8:55 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > >> A FAR better way to provide UPS for radio gear is a 12V deep discharge >> lead acid battery or 14.4V LiFePO4 that is float charged by a suitable >> power supply. And as has been discussed several times, LiFePO4 batteries >> have the major advantage that their operating voltage stays above 13V for >> most of their discharge curve, while lead-acid batteries are below 12V for >> most of their discharge curve. This system is as quiet as the power supply >> used to float-charge the battery. >> >> With either battery type, care must be taken to not overcharge the >> battery. >> >> 73, Jim K9YC >> > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to scott.sm...@gmail.com > -- Scott Small __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
That said, for my own use, I've got a 100Ah LFP from Blackwood Innovations for my ham hear; BioEnno has units all the way up to 300Ah for the deep-of-pocker. On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Tox wrote: > There are also UPSes meant for extended runtimes that are a little less > brutal on the batteries. One Upon a Time, I had a couple racks of APC > SmartUPS 2000 units with daisychained batteries to give extended holdup to > a couple of racks of telecom and server hw. No clue how RF noisy those > units are, though. > > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT < > kx...@coldrockshotbrooms.com> wrote: > >> I'm going to add that nearly every UPS made is meant to bridge the time >> between when the power goes out, and the (automatic) generator starts. >> >> If you don't have a generator, the UPS signals the computer(s) so that >> they can shut down gracefully and turn the UPS off. >> >> The (typically AGM lead-acid) batteries are sized for maybe 15 minutes, >> which is way too fast. Drawing a lead-acid battery flat in 15 minutes will >> kill it in only a few cycles. >> >> What I did as part of my ISP was to remove the batteries from my UPSes >> and replace 7 or 12Ah batteries with 100Ah batteries outside the case. >> >> That didn't get me to the 10 hours for maximum battery life, but it got >> me to 8 hours. >> >> Jim's suggestion also lets you size the battery to run all the gear for >> more than a few minutes. >> >> 73 -- Lynn >> >> On 8/30/2017 8:55 AM, Jim Brown wrote: >> >>> A FAR better way to provide UPS for radio gear is a 12V deep discharge >>> lead acid battery or 14.4V LiFePO4 that is float charged by a suitable >>> power supply. And as has been discussed several times, LiFePO4 batteries >>> have the major advantage that their operating voltage stays above 13V for >>> most of their discharge curve, while lead-acid batteries are below 12V for >>> most of their discharge curve. This system is as quiet as the power supply >>> used to float-charge the battery. >>> >>> With either battery type, care must be taken to not overcharge the >>> battery. >>> >>> 73, Jim K9YC >>> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to scott.sm...@gmail.com >> > > > > -- > Scott Small > > > > -- Scott Small __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
Good observations, Lynn. A few more. First, I failed to observe that my 100Ah LiFePO4 battery runs ONLY my K3s. A big lead-acid from Costco runs other 12V gear and LED lighting. I do NOT try to provide UPS for power amps. If I need them, I'll fire up the big 240V generator. Second, a local computer guru, AE6KS, has observed that most UPS mfrs charge batteries at too fast a rate for good battery life. The objective is to have the unit ready to do it all again if power drops, then returns, then drops again. This intentional design goal kills batteries pretty quickly. Perhaps by accident, I found Cyber Power branded UPS units that 1) claim an 8 hour charging rate and 2) FCC Part 15 Class B compliance for their pseudo-sinewave units. I have two of them in my shack with a 160M vertical only 25 ft away, and with good chokes on their wiring, can't hear any noise when they're in standby mode. Haven't checked for noise when they're inverting. I use one to keep an ancient tower computer running, and the second one to backup the 120V accessories -- rotator controllers and SteppIR controller -- and the laptop PSU is plugged in there. 73, Jim K9YC On 8/31/2017 10:46 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote: Jim's suggestion also lets you size the battery to run all the gear for more than a few minutes. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
On 8/31/2017 11:35 AM, Tox wrote: I had a couple racks of APC SmartUPS 2000 units with daisychained batteries to give extended holdup to a couple of racks of telecom and server hw. No clue how RF noisy those units are, though. All of the APC units for which I've seen spec sheets are FCC Part 15 Class A (the industrial spec, ILLEGAL to sell for residential use, roughly 20 dB worse than Class B). 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
I have an APC SmartUPS 700, which I bought many years ago from http://www.refurbups.com/. The manual says it's certified as Class B. 73, Jim N7US -Original Message- On 8/31/2017 11:35 AM, Tox wrote: > I had a couple racks of APC > SmartUPS 2000 units with daisychained batteries to give extended > holdup to a couple of racks of telecom and server hw. No clue how RF > noisy those units are, though. All of the APC units for which I've seen spec sheets are FCC Part 15 Class A (the industrial spec, ILLEGAL to sell for residential use, roughly 20 dB worse than Class B). 73, Jim K9YC j...@n7us.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
I forgot to add that the manual says it produces a sine wave. 73, Jim N7US -Original Message- I have an APC SmartUPS 700, which I bought many years ago from http://www.refurbups.com/. The manual says it's certified as Class B. 73, Jim N7US -Original Message- On 8/31/2017 11:35 AM, Tox wrote: > I had a couple racks of APC > SmartUPS 2000 units with daisychained batteries to give extended > holdup to a couple of racks of telecom and server hw. No clue how RF > noisy those units are, though. All of the APC units for which I've seen spec sheets are FCC Part 15 Class A (the industrial spec, ILLEGAL to sell for residential use, roughly 20 dB worse than Class B). 73, Jim K9YC j...@n7us.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
Hmmm. I had a Cyber Power 1500VA unit for a while on my station, but one day I transmitted on 12 meters and something inside the thing made a "pop". This was followed by a loud "crack" and the UPS expired then and there. I should note I have an extremely difficult RF environment on my tiny urban lot (a second floor shack with a SteppIR 3L about 15 feet directly over the operating chair). This might have been a one-off thing, but if you're going to use one of the Cyber Power devices, check it at LOW RF levels on all bands for EMI problems. 73... Randy, W8FN On 8/31/2017 4:53 PM, Jim Brown wrote: Perhaps by accident, I found Cyber Power branded UPS units that 1) claim an 8 hour charging rate and 2) FCC Part 15 Class B compliance for their pseudo-sinewave units. I have two of them in my shack with a 160M vertical only 25 ft away, and with good chokes on their wiring, can't hear any noise when they're in standby mode. Haven't checked for noise when they're inverting. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
And my old, but still functioning with a new battery, APC Back-UPS Office, 500VA/325W UPS is also certified Class B. It has a "stepped approximation to a sine wave." 73, Jim N7US -Original Message- I forgot to add that the manual says it produces a sine wave. 73, Jim N7US -Original Message- I have an APC SmartUPS 700, which I bought many years ago from http://www.refurbups.com/. The manual says it's certified as Class B. 73, Jim N7US -Original Message- On 8/31/2017 11:35 AM, Tox wrote: > I had a couple racks of APC > SmartUPS 2000 units with daisychained batteries to give extended > holdup to a couple of racks of telecom and server hw. No clue how RF > noisy those units are, though. All of the APC units for which I've seen spec sheets are FCC Part 15 Class A (the industrial spec, ILLEGAL to sell for residential use, roughly 20 dB worse than Class B). 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
It's not a bad design goal if you can plan on only 1 or 2 outages per year, if that. Probably not too bad if the generator kicks in and you only abuse the batteries for a few minutes. My observation was that the big APC units charged at about half the discharge rate, so yeah, charging too fast, but the discharge did more harm than charging. I was a 16 year old kid working his first real job in an auto parts store just after cars switched from 6v to 12v. We could order 8 volt lead-acid batteries, and I always thought that 6+8 was 14. 73 - Lynn On 8/31/2017 2:53 PM, Jim Brown wrote: Second, a local computer guru, AE6KS, has observed that most UPS mfrs charge batteries at too fast a rate for good battery life. The objective is to have the unit ready to do it all again if power drops, then returns, then drops again. This intentional design goal kills batteries pretty quickly. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
On 8/31/2017 10:46 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote: > What I did as part of my ISP was to remove the batteries from my UPSes > and replace 7 or 12Ah batteries with 100Ah batteries outside the case. > > That didn't get me to the 10 hours for maximum battery life, but it got > me to 8 hours. > > Jim's suggestion also lets you size the battery to run all the gear for > more than a few minutes. I have 2 APC UPS devices - I moved one's 7 AH battery to an external container where I have three of them in parallel. That UPS runs the cable modem, router, and cordless phone system. The other one runs my desktop computer and accessories. Because of the type of battery in the machine, I would have to do serious soldering to attach external wires, which would void the warranty. My standby power mentor/guru explained to me quite a few years ago that given a large enough battery source, the limiting factor in most consumer-grade UPS is the heating of the electronics. Both of those UPSes are running at about 15% of "advertised capacity" which, according to APC's runtime curve, extends the run time by a factor of 10. 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 >From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
On 8/31/2017 3:26 PM, Jim McDonald wrote: I have an APC SmartUPS 700, which I bought many years ago from http://www.refurbups.com/. The manual says it's certified as Class B. Thanks Jim. I looked at a half-dozen APC UPS units advertised on that site about 2 weeks ago, and studied their specs on the APC website. All were Class A. Things change, of course, and I only checked those few units. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
On 31/08/17 22:56, Jim Brown wrote: > On 8/31/2017 11:35 AM, Tox wrote: >> I had a couple racks of APC >> SmartUPS 2000 units with daisychained batteries to give extended >> holdup to >> a couple of racks of telecom and server hw. No clue how RF noisy those >> units are, though. > > All of the APC units for which I've seen spec sheets are FCC Part 15 > Class A (the industrial spec, ILLEGAL to sell for residential use, > roughly 20 dB worse than Class B). I had a SmartUPS 750, and it was very bad. Put out crud all the way from VLF to VHF. I threw it away in the end. In the shack I use a much older APC Back-UPS 500 for the computer, which doesn't seem to cause any problems. I've had to replace the battery every 3-4 years, but that's to be expected. 73, Richard G4DYA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
On 8/31/2017 2:56 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > All of the APC units for which I've seen spec sheets are FCC Part 15> Class A > (the industrial spec, ILLEGAL to sell for residential use,> roughly 20 dB worse than Class B). The spec sheets for both of my APC UPS devices (BE550R and BX1500G) specify FCC Part 15 Class B. > Second, a local computer guru, AE6KS, has observed that most UPS mfrs charge > batteries at too fast a rate for good battery life. Both spec sheets show a recharge time of 16 hours. Is that "too fast"? 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 >From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
Keep in mind that by code, a device plugged into a 15 amp circuit must not draw more than 12 amps continuous. When you get into the larger UPSes, they might want to charge really fast, but charging at a high rate and carrying the rated load will exceed 12 amps. So depending on the rating of the unit, and the recommended input circuit, some models will definitely charge slow. 16 hours is not too fast for charging. If the UPS can't carry the load for ten hours, then the discharge rate is WAY TOO FAST. Most UPSes are designed to carry the load for about 15 minutes, so if you aren't killing the battery charging, you're killing it discharging. 73 -- Lynn On 9/1/2017 10:32 AM, Phil Kane wrote: Second, a local computer guru, AE6KS, has observed that most UPS mfrs charge batteries at too fast a rate for good battery life. Both spec sheets show a recharge time of 16 hours. Is that "too fast"? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] UPS Can Be a Noise Source
No, that's just about ideal for battery life. 73, Jim On 9/1/2017 10:32 AM, Phil Kane wrote: Second, a local computer guru, AE6KS, has observed that most UPS mfrs charge batteries at too fast a rate for good battery life. Both spec sheets show a recharge time of 16 hours. Is that "too fast"? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
