Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
Unh? How does one know your sig is QRP? Unless you send "QRP" with your call (I never do). Receiving QRP as weak sig is a MYTH! I have heard QRO stations in the noise as well as QRP stations. When propagation is there, does not matter what power you use, QRP sigs is just as loud as QRO sigs, look at ur S-meter! The ops who claim it as "weak" are those wanting "Arm-chair" copy. CW ops are more forgiving in that they will be patient and are willing to work you. I'd take a K1 any day of the week! Ron, wb1hga KT5X wrote: QRP...the real skills are at the other end. "Snip" In a ragchew or traffic handling, that may be true when the QRP signal is weak. "snip" ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
I'm always amazed when contesting (especially on phone, er, I know, "what is that?") and part of the report indicates power level, such as Q for QRP in the ARRL November Sweepstakes. More often than not if I get a comment from the other station he/she usually says something like "Wow, great signal for QRP!" I often wonder about that but have yet to reply something on the order of "Oh, well you have an okay signal for QRO" or "Umm, thanks, but it is just my power level that is low, not my antenna!" or something like that. I've also found that I usually work at least about 80% of the stations that I would have worked otherwise while running QRO at 100W or more, which tends to make QRP much more attractive if there is a bonus multiplier of 2X or more (such as PA QSO Party). BTW, I just got a KX1 (and KXB8030 and KXAT1) for Christmas from my wonderful XYL with the help of fellow Polar Bear and EPA QRP Club member Ed, K3YTR. Cant wait to head out on the trail, especially this summer for more serious backpacking (the K2 is way too nice to take out on the trail in the backpack, oh, and quite a bit heavier & more bulky as well). Mark, NK8Q K2 S/N 4786 and (soon) KX1 S/N 1644 ron wrote: Unh? How does one know your sig is QRP? Unless you send "QRP" with your call (I never do). Receiving QRP as weak sig is a MYTH! I have heard QRO stations in the noise as well as QRP stations. When propagation is there, does not matter what power you use, QRP sigs is just as loud as QRO sigs, look at ur S-meter! The ops who claim it as "weak" are those wanting "Arm-chair" copy. CW ops are more forgiving in that they will be patient and are willing to work you. I'd take a K1 any day of the week! Ron, wb1hga KT5X wrote: QRP...the real skills are at the other end. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
The NCDF beacons are the best way to figure the difference, as the call and the first dash are sent at 100 watts, second at 10, third at 1 and the last at 100 mW. Yes, there are times when the AGC equalizes two, three, or even the all dashes and you hear no difference between 100 W and 0.1 W. But very often if you can hear the DX beacon at all, only the call and the first dash are coming. That means, that in this moment you can make a QSO with 100, but can't with 10 73, Val LZ1VB > How does one know your sig is QRP? Unless you send "QRP" with your > call (I never do). > > Receiving QRP as weak sig is a MYTH! > > I have heard QRO stations in the noise as well as QRP stations. > > When propagation is there, does not matter what power you use, QRP > sigs is just as loud as QRO sigs, look at ur S-meter! > > The ops who claim it as "weak" are those wanting "Arm-chair" copy. > > CW ops are more forgiving in that they will be patient and are > willing to work you. > > I'd take a K1 any day of the week! > > Ron, wb1hga > > > > KT5X wrote: > >>QRP...the real skills are at the other end. > > > "Snip" > > > > In a ragchew or traffic handling, that may be true when the QRP signal is weak. > > "snip" ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
I believe that the work being done in a QRP QSO is done by the RX station, not the TX station. That is, if there is any work to be done. Sometimes propogation is such that QRP signals are Q5 and "work" just as well as QRO. In that case, nobody is doing anything special. The time the QRP op is doing the work is when he spends to time to optimize his antennas to make up for the 6 dB or more loss in TX power. Again, this is to make the QRP signal work just like a QRO signal. This is the case where the QRP person can take some credit for having gone above & beyond to make a QSO happen. In most cases, however, I firmly believe the "qrp award" goes to the receiving station, not the transmitting station. - Keith N1AS - ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
I agree with Ron, 1000% Unless you sign "/QRP", how is a station to know you are QRP? There are so many variables . propagation, antennas, location, height above sea level, etc.. Let's say the station doing the listening is in California. Your 5 Watts in Georgia may be a whole ton louder to him than 1000 Watts coming from South Africa. In fact, I've worked guys using 1 or 2 Watts who were 20 over 9 at my receiving location. I would never had known that they were QRP unless they hadn't volunteered the information. Besides, if you really want to cut to the chase, it's ALWAYS the station doing the receiving that is "working" - NOT the transmitting station. Now if you want to be picky, by definition the term "power" is equal to an amount of work being done. So it follows that a QRO station is doing more "work" that a QRP station. But it's not necessarily true that in ALL cases he is going to be louder and easier to hear than a QRP station. The argument is very subjective. -- Larry W2LJ QRP - When you care to send the very least! http://www.w2lj.qrpradio.com http://w2lj.blogspot.com/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
All the rationalizations and anecdotal experiences aside, there is no escape from the physical reality that a 100 watt station will be 13 dB stronger than the same station running QRP 5 watts. Whether or not this 13 Db is crucial depends upon propagation conditions and noise and QRM levels at the receiving end. 73, Chuck NI0C ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
Well, lets deal with facts on your hypothetical QRO station: Transmit power 500 watts S-9 +10 db 50 watts S-9 (+ 10 db over 9) 12.5watts S-8 3.1 watts S-7 You lose 1 S-Unit each time you're reducing power by 1/4. One S-unit consists of 6db increase or decrease in received signal strength. Transmit power must be increased FOUR TIMES to achieve a signal strength increase of one S-Unit! A QRP signal is mighty respectable at S-7 on anyone's receiver. I will still prefer my K1. Ron, wb1hga Chuck Guenther wrote: All the rationalizations and anecdotal experiences aside, there is no escape from the physical reality that a 100 watt station will be 13 dB stronger than the same station running QRP 5 watts. Whether or not this 13 Db is crucial depends upon propagation conditions and noise and QRM levels at the receiving end. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
In a message dated 12/26/06 6:27:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Transmit power 500 watts S-9 +10 db > 50 watts S-9 (+ 10 db over 9) > 12.5watts S-8 > 3.1 watts S-7 > > You lose 1 S-Unit each time you're reducing power by 1/4. Yup - *if* the receiver is really 6 dB per S unit. Now look at these numbers: Transmit power 1280 watts S-6 320 watts S-5 80 watts S-4 20 watts S-3 5 watts S-2 If the receiving station can't dig out your S-2 signal, no QSO. > > One S-unit consists of 6db increase or decrease in received signal > strength. Transmit power must be increased FOUR TIMES to achieve a > signal strength increase of one S-Unit! > > A QRP signal is mighty respectable at S-7 on anyone's receiver. > *if* the path is such that you are S-7. 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
The same skills you use when running QRP also work when running QRO...listening to where the DX station is listening and transmitting WHEN he is listening is the best way to work him. You compare brute force QRO to carfefully timed QRP and then say QRP is better. You can use the same careful timing and listening when running QRO. So when you are operating with the same skill level in transmit the only difference is how well the OTHER guy can copy you...how patient he is. Many stations won't want to slow down their QSO rate in a contest to even try more than once to get your call and will just go back to CQ'ing. The fact is QRP IS fun. It IS challenging. But I put the same effort in my operating regardless of my power. Its the OTHER guy who is listening to me through S9 static crashes and having his patience tested. I don't work any harder (unless you count repeating my callsign more times than usual.). The power knob on my K2 is a time machine.At 1W it takes me longer to work someone in a contest or a DX pileup than when I have it turned up to 1500W. My skills don't change. I like to think I'm a "good" operator. By that I mean I'm courteous to othersWhen the DX calls for the W2 I don't send K2TA. When I hear the DX working a station every 10 seconds I darn well know it's a waste of time to send my call for longer than that time. But I don't kid myself into thinking that because I work a new country while running 5W that it is because of my great skills. I give 95% of the credit to the guy on the other end. But that's just my perspective. I'm sure there are people who pat themselves on the back for working a DX station with QRP by sending their callsign 50 times in a row without ever pausing to listen for the DX so that sooner or later when the pileup died down he was the last man standing in the clear. I just hope he stays QRP so I don't have to be QRM'd by him in the pileups. - Original Message - From: "KT5X" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:31 PM Subject: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP? > QRP...the real skills are at the other end. < boy...am I asking for trouble with THAT line!> LOL. Yes and no... Here's the thing In a ragchew or traffic handling, that may be true when the QRP signal is weak. But this is NOT the case in DX'ing, as in, get your call across to work a DX-pedition or the like. Yes, the guy on the other end has to copy a relatively weaker signal, but all the skill of slipping your weak signal through the cracks of a pile-up, or through the rise and fall of ionospheric waves rests with the QRP operator, make no mistake. When I am DXing QRP, I listen, listen, listen, listen, and rarely transmit. When I actually transmit, my success level, QSO's per call, is far higher than when QRO when my tendency is throw my signal at it 'cause I know it is getting there. QRP on 160 meters (from New Mexico): It took me 20 minutes to work R1FJT, Franz Josephland, QRO. It took another forty-five, but just ONE call, to work him QRP, five watts, with our club call. What a great night. I was watching him on the grayline chart. He was in his grayline and stayed there for 90 minutes that night. that's the thrill and skill of QRP. 72, Fred KT5X (W5YA/qrp) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
Dear Fellow Elecraftists, I have been adjusting/measuring many HF rigs the last 10-15yrs or so, using a calibrated Marconi generator. From what I've found on S-meter accuracy, I conclude there is no such thing as the "6 dB per S-unit". Offical tests in magazines and books verify this too. Wether it be large ones like the 1000MP's, or small rigs, all show from 1dB to max 4 dB between S-units accros the range from S1 to S9. I take it that roughly said 2.5 dB per S-unit is valid nowadays. Now to your statement; it is not going to be an S7, it will rather be an S1 or less I'm afraid. Who does the work in QRP? It always is the guy with the better antenna's :) But do not fear, QRP does work! Just listen to the NCDXF HF beacons while they switch from 100W to 10W, 1W and 100mW. If you can hear the 100W, you can almost for sure hear the 1W too. Better to compare live results on the band instead of theoratical statements. Have a healthy and prosperous 2007 ! '73 Mark, PA5MW You lose 1 S-Unit each time you're reducing power by 1/4. One S-unit consists of 6db increase or decrease in received signal strength. Transmit power must be increased FOUR TIMES to achieve a signal strength increase of one S-Unit! A QRP signal is mighty respectable at S-7 on anyone's receiver. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
Ron, wb1hga, wrote: "I will still prefer my K1." I can't argue with your preferences. The K1 is a fine rig, I'm sure. I have a Wilderness Sierra (Wayne Burdick's predecessor to the K1), and I enjoy making QSO's with it. However, when I hear a KW contest station on 80 meters working from a country or zone that I need, I call with my big rig and amp. To use the Sierra under these conditions would be a foolish waste of time. I like having the option of varying my power from about 3 dB below 5 watts to about 21 dB above 5 watts. 73, Chuck NI0C ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
This has certainly been an interesting discussion. Usually this question comes up in asymmetrical situations-- where the op at one end is running QRP power levels and/or using a marginal antenna, and the person on the other end is running power that may be orders of magnitude higher than QRP and a good antenna. When I worked JM7OLW earier this year on 40m with my KX1 and HF-2V, he was running a KW to a 3 elemnt beam. I sent him an e-mail congratulating him for his accomplishment. I had no trouble copying him, but he sure strained to pull me out of the noise. The way I see it, he did the lion's share of the "work!" 73, Chuck NI0C ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
I don't pat myself on the back or feel that I have achieved something if I manage to make a DX contact. I'm just plain thrilled. Anyone can run the full legal limit to a tower mounted beam if they have deep enough pockets and think it's important enough to spend that kind of money. But do they get the same thrill when their signal is heard the other side of the world as the guy running the barefoot K2 or K1 into a bit of wire? The wonder is that enough power to dimly light a torch bulb is sufficient to allow communication with someone thousands of miles away. If I wanted reliable communication with someone in Australia I'd pick up the phone, or send an email. The more power you use, the more money you spend, the less magic is left and the less fun it is, in my opinion. Julian, G4ILO G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
All these numbers are fun but do not mean much. What you do if you run QRP is learn about propagation. If you have the prop, you work about as well as a 100 watt station. If you don't, go do something else. Yes if you run 1500 watts to a good antenna you will get the DX first. At 5 watts it takes a day or so. I do the Fox Hunts where we are all 5 watts and run 20 WPM CW. We do try hard to work each other and it does work well. I got both Fox last night, one in CO and the other in TX. I live in NM and we were on 80 Meters. Fun. 72 Karl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/26/06 6:27:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Transmit power 500 watts S-9 +10 db 50 watts S-9 (+ 10 db over 9) 12.5watts S-8 3.1 watts S-7 You lose 1 S-Unit each time you're reducing power by 1/4. Yup - *if* the receiver is really 6 dB per S unit. Now look at these numbers: Transmit power 1280 watts S-6 320 watts S-5 80 watts S-4 20 watts S-3 5 watts S-2 If the receiving station can't dig out your S-2 signal, no QSO. One S-unit consists of 6db increase or decrease in received signal strength. Transmit power must be increased FOUR TIMES to achieve a signal strength increase of one S-Unit! A QRP signal is mighty respectable at S-7 on anyone's receiver. *if* the path is such that you are S-7. 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
Well here's my 2 cents... I work almost 100% QRP. The person who copies my signal might be doing the "real work", but I'm having the "real fun!" I always smile to myself when a QRO operator compliments me on having a "great signal for QRP." That kind of comment generally comes from someone who hasn't tried QRP and so I try to take the opportunity to do a little proselytizing. When the conditions are a little rough I try to thank the other end for their "great ears." A gracious "thank you" will probably do more that an egotistical brag to encourage participation in QRP. I like the quote from Francis Bacon... "If a man be gracious and courteous to strangers, it shows he is a citizen of the world, and that his heart is no island cut off from other lands, but a continent that joins to them." Happy New Year to everybody! 73 Paul - N8XMS ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
First of all, let me apologize right off the bat to any traumatized QRO station that might have been driven to excess drinking or required extra therapy as a result of a having a QSO with my QRP station. I envision a whole class of ham that was forced into early RF retirement caused by all the extra work involved in working low power stations. I only hope that their misery is offset by knowing the absolute joy of having worked them with low power equipment that I built with my own two hands. Tom, AK2B ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
> Who does the work in QRP? > It always is the guy with the better antenna's :) Amen to that. I'm working on QRP-WAS, and I have to admit that most of my QSOs are with hams that have some huge hunks of metal flying above their shacks. Those are a lot easier for everyone involved! But I've also got quite a number of 2-way QRP QSOs in my log - other Elecrafters with wire antennas. Those contacts were, usually, as clear and easy as the others. Maybe it's the K2 mojo, not the antenna or the op or ... :-) 73 de chris K6DBG (looking for QSOs to VT, MA, RI, DE, MD, WV, AR, WY, NE :-) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Tom Hall wrote: First of all, let me apologize right off the bat to any traumatized QRO station that might have been driven to excess drinking or required extra therapy as a result of a having a QSO with my QRP station. I envision a whole class of ham that was forced into early RF retirement caused by all the extra work involved in working low power stations. I only hope that their misery is offset by knowing the absolute joy of having worked them with low power equipment that I built with my own two hands. Just to make another point in this possibly pointless debate: all the antenna systems I've worked on are either kits or homebrew. Nobody will deliver an assembled tower or beam to your house (unless you live next door to AN Wireless, I bet, or can put up a nice monopole since you're richer than I'll ever be.) Towers aren't really kits, since you have to collect the parts from different vendors. Oh, and as far as really big amps go, they're almost all homebrew. All this is unlike a lot of QRP gear, which are KITS, not homebrew. Not that any of this one-upmanship gets us anywhere. Actually, if I get you off the computer on the air, that's a positive! -- Hisashi T Fujinaka - [EMAIL PROTECTED] BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] who does the work in QRP?
Sometimes I use my 400mW Mizuho or HB rigs, sometimes I use the Omni 6 and the Centurion at 1kW out. The type of tool depends on the type of task. One's not any more fun than the other as the saying goes, it's all good! John K5MO PS: VU7LD @ 900W is better than *not* VU7LD with my KX1 :-) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/604 - Release Date: 12/26/2006 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
