Re: [Emc-developers] Ethercat driver

2018-01-17 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 17 January 2018 17:20:47 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:41:59 -0500
>
> Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > On Wednesday 17 January 2018 11:10:53 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > > On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:27:25 -0500
> > >
> > > Dave Cole  wrote:
> > > > The text below is at the end of the SOEM page from the link
> > > > below. https://openethercatsociety.github.io/doc/soem/index.html
> > > >
> > > > So how does this work??   The SOEM software itself is GPL, but
> > > > if you implement an Ethercat master, you need to get a license
> > > > ??
> > >
> > > Why a license?
> > >
> > > I have nothing about sharing my work but copyright issues i
> > > something different.
> > >
> > > Then in european union I read something about interoperability so
> > > you are always allowed to make your own device to talk to other
> > > device.
> > >
> > > > That's an interesting approach.
> > > >
> > > > If the SOEM code is all GPL, then how could adding GPL code to
> > > > GPL code result in something other than GPL code ?
> > > >
> > > >  From a practical standpoint, I think we need to figure out how
> > > > to get networked drives connected to LinuxCNC if we want
> > > > LinuxCNC to live on. At some point analog servo drive interfaces
> > > > will become like 5 1/4" floppy drives...    They were once
> > > > common.
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > Michael Büsch already implemented a profibus master. I have it
> > > running against an IO module and millions of these kind of devices
> > > have been sold. I think he implemented on Rasberry and I had some
> > > timing issue before running on ordinary computer but have not
> > > looked further because I have been busy with something really good
> > > for servos and looking for a new woman.
> > >
> > > Bandwidth required to replace an analog signal may be surprisingly
> > > high and for a control loop even though there are plenty of
> > > bandwidth it need to split in many small messages. Ethercat solve
> > > this problem in a similar way as cascade coupled shift registers.
> > >
> > >
> > > Nicklas Karlsson
> >
> > I think this might be right up PCW's alley. He is already selling
> > some cards that expand via an rj45 jack. Perhaps he could chime in
> > here as to the advantages and disadvantages of adapting the firmware
> > to be something like this, but call it something other than
> > ethercat.
> >
> > Changing the subject a bit while I ramble, we have some amazingly
> > cheap rs485 devices about, costing less than a buck each in bags
> > from ebay.
>
> Yes rs485 is a cheap and a very good driver. UART however have limited
> speed and not the least clock accuracy problem at higher speed. With a
> device with as many UART ports as needed this might be a very good
> solution, speed could also be adapted to cable length then long cables
> are needed.
>
Then one good uart, something that can run in the multimegahertz speeds, 
later 16550's can, and some and gates to send or receive from that rs485 
channel might be a lowercost item. I am doing this "chip selection" with 
and2's in the G0704 since the charge pump is limited to one output and I 
needed at least 2 just to softstart the spindle motors PSU. Otherwise 
the power up inrush trips a 30 amp breaker in the service. there are 
today, lots ways around that. 

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Cheers, Gene Heskett
The above content, added by Maurice E. Heskett, is Copyright 2018 by 
Maurice E. Heskett.
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Re: [Emc-developers] Ethercat driver

2018-01-17 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:41:59 -0500
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Wednesday 17 January 2018 11:10:53 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:27:25 -0500
> >
> > Dave Cole  wrote:
> > > The text below is at the end of the SOEM page from the link below.
> > > https://openethercatsociety.github.io/doc/soem/index.html
> > >
> > > So how does this work??   The SOEM software itself is GPL, but if
> > > you implement an Ethercat master, you need to get a license ??
> >
> > Why a license?
> >
> > I have nothing about sharing my work but copyright issues i something
> > different.
> >
> > Then in european union I read something about interoperability so you
> > are always allowed to make your own device to talk to other device.
> >
> > > That's an interesting approach.
> > >
> > > If the SOEM code is all GPL, then how could adding GPL code to GPL
> > > code result in something other than GPL code ?
> > >
> > >  From a practical standpoint, I think we need to figure out how to
> > > get networked drives connected to LinuxCNC if we want LinuxCNC to
> > > live on. At some point analog servo drive interfaces will become
> > > like 5 1/4" floppy drives...    They were once common.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > Michael Büsch already implemented a profibus master. I have it running
> > against an IO module and millions of these kind of devices have been
> > sold. I think he implemented on Rasberry and I had some timing issue
> > before running on ordinary computer but have not looked further
> > because I have been busy with something really good for servos and
> > looking for a new woman.
> >
> > Bandwidth required to replace an analog signal may be surprisingly
> > high and for a control loop even though there are plenty of bandwidth
> > it need to split in many small messages. Ethercat solve this problem
> > in a similar way as cascade coupled shift registers.
> >
> >
> > Nicklas Karlsson
> >
> I think this might be right up PCW's alley. He is already selling some 
> cards that expand via an rj45 jack. Perhaps he could chime in here as to 
> the advantages and disadvantages of adapting the firmware to be 
> something like this, but call it something other than ethercat.
> 
> Changing the subject a bit while I ramble, we have some amazingly cheap 
> rs485 devices about, costing less than a buck each in bags from ebay.

Yes rs485 is a cheap and a very good driver. UART however have limited speed 
and not the least clock accuracy problem at higher speed. With a device with as 
many UART ports as needed this might be a very good solution, speed could also 
be adapted to cable length then long cables are needed.

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Re: [Emc-developers] Ethercat driver

2018-01-17 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 17 January 2018 11:10:53 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:27:25 -0500
>
> Dave Cole  wrote:
> > The text below is at the end of the SOEM page from the link below.
> > https://openethercatsociety.github.io/doc/soem/index.html
> >
> > So how does this work??   The SOEM software itself is GPL, but if
> > you implement an Ethercat master, you need to get a license ??
>
> Why a license?
>
> I have nothing about sharing my work but copyright issues i something
> different.
>
> Then in european union I read something about interoperability so you
> are always allowed to make your own device to talk to other device.
>
> > That's an interesting approach.
> >
> > If the SOEM code is all GPL, then how could adding GPL code to GPL
> > code result in something other than GPL code ?
> >
> >  From a practical standpoint, I think we need to figure out how to
> > get networked drives connected to LinuxCNC if we want LinuxCNC to
> > live on. At some point analog servo drive interfaces will become
> > like 5 1/4" floppy drives...    They were once common.
>
> Yes.
>
> Michael Büsch already implemented a profibus master. I have it running
> against an IO module and millions of these kind of devices have been
> sold. I think he implemented on Rasberry and I had some timing issue
> before running on ordinary computer but have not looked further
> because I have been busy with something really good for servos and
> looking for a new woman.
>
> Bandwidth required to replace an analog signal may be surprisingly
> high and for a control loop even though there are plenty of bandwidth
> it need to split in many small messages. Ethercat solve this problem
> in a similar way as cascade coupled shift registers.
>
>
> Nicklas Karlsson
>
I think this might be right up PCW's alley. He is already selling some 
cards that expand via an rj45 jack. Perhaps he could chime in here as to 
the advantages and disadvantages of adapting the firmware to be 
something like this, but call it something other than ethercat.

Changing the subject a bit while I ramble, we have some amazingly cheap 
rs485 devices about, costing less than a buck each in bags from ebay.

These can be full duplex, and rows of them could be made on a breakout 
card, all we need is an effective chip selection mechanism. I recently 
used a pair of them as the receivers for an encoder with differential 
outputs by disabling the transmit function. They are outputting quite 
square waves to the A/B inputs of a 5i25, with a 1000 line encoder 
spinning in the 8 to 10k revs region as the encoder is on the rear of 
that 1hp, 90 volt rated, motor while the motor is being fed around 123 
volts. I figure I am getting more than 1.5 hp out of it. With the OEM 
triac based controller, it turned the spindle 2200 revs. With this 
lashup, 3k is usable for 2 minutes as there seems to be a thermal switch 
in the motor armature, (but the motors heating cannot be detected) and 
2750 forever. There isn't any reason a bunch of these couldn't be 
associated, one to a servo axis, and I don't think they would be a 
bandwidth problem doing it. All we need are the interfaces ( more of 
these facing the cable ) and whatever servo driver is to be used, Jon's 
pwm-servo comes to mind, mainly because I've found it quite usable as 
spindle controllers on my smaller stuff. PMDC motors up to 2 hp are 
right in its bailiwick.

This is a case of doubleing the speed of my G0704 when I replaced the 
intended for mach use BoB on it with a SainSmart BoB, also intended for 
mach, getting rid of all opto-isolators in the the output paths. I had 
to bypass them for the two inputs I used for the encoder because they 
quit functioning at about 400 motor rpms, opto's wwyy to 
slow.

But getting rid of the slow opto's in the step/dir paths has allowed me 
to cut at least a full microsecond off the step driver timings, I am 
still experimenting with that, and the nice clean pulses to the drivers 
has taken me from 55 ipm without stalls speeds to 110 ipm w/o any 
stalls, includeing the z motor while lifting that 50+ pound head, with 
max_accel's in the 140 range. Just a bump and the table or the head is 
now moving at 110 ipm. These motor drivers all have their own much 
faster opto's for that, so use them. The difference in speed is the 
SainSmart bob and its lack of opto's in the output pins.

I did find, finally, the reason for the extremely letharic accel's once 
homed.

Linuxcnc will complain about missing AXIS_L limits and refuse to start, 
but not about missing [AXIS_L] MAX_VEL or MAX_ACCEL in your config 
files. IMO it should, but doesn't, it just kills the machines 
performance. Shame on LinuxCNC.

I thought the conversion to JOINT_N nomenclature was complete but it is 
not, so yesterday while reading the docs and finding those two vars were 
still listed under the axis heading, I put them back in the ini. Problem 
solved with a vengeance because I

Re: [Emc-developers] Ethercat driver

2018-01-17 Thread Dave Cole 

Why a license?


I have no idea.  It sounds like they want you to ask permission.
However I am quite sure the software will work without permission being granted.
So what's the point?

And if you obtained a license, what exactly do you do with it?
Print it out and paste it on the wall?  Put in in your wallet next to your 
fishing and driving license?

Was "Ethernet" ever licensed?  I was around when DEC first started selling Ethernet 
systems.   Back then there was a lot of mystery (and cost) around setting up an Ethernet system.  I 
remember a tap kit for semi-rigid Ethernet cable costing thousands of dollars.   I still have some 
of that "cable" around here someplace.


On 1/17/2018 11:10 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:27:25 -0500
Dave Cole  wrote:


The text below is at the end of the SOEM page from the link below.
https://openethercatsociety.github.io/doc/soem/index.html

So how does this work??   The SOEM software itself is GPL, but if you
implement an Ethercat master, you need to get a license ??

Why a license?

I have nothing about sharing my work but copyright issues i something different.

Then in european union I read something about interoperability so you are 
always allowed to make your own device to talk to other device.


That's an interesting approach.

If the SOEM code is all GPL, then how could adding GPL code to GPL code
result in something other than GPL code ?

  From a practical standpoint, I think we need to figure out how to get
networked drives connected to LinuxCNC if we want LinuxCNC to live on.
At some point analog servo drive interfaces will become like 5 1/4"
floppy drives...    They were once common.

Yes.

Michael Büsch already implemented a profibus master. I have it running against 
an IO module and millions of these kind of devices have been sold. I think he 
implemented on Rasberry and I had some timing issue before running on ordinary 
computer but have not looked further because I have been busy with something 
really good for servos and looking for a new woman.

Bandwidth required to replace an analog signal may be surprisingly high and for 
a control loop even though there are plenty of bandwidth it need to split in 
many small messages. Ethercat solve this problem in a similar way as cascade 
coupled shift registers.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-developers] Ethercat driver

2018-01-17 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:27:25 -0500
Dave Cole  wrote:

> The text below is at the end of the SOEM page from the link below.
> https://openethercatsociety.github.io/doc/soem/index.html
> 
> So how does this work??   The SOEM software itself is GPL, but if you 
> implement an Ethercat master, you need to get a license ??

Why a license?

I have nothing about sharing my work but copyright issues i something different.

Then in european union I read something about interoperability so you are 
always allowed to make your own device to talk to other device.

> That's an interesting approach.
> 
> If the SOEM code is all GPL, then how could adding GPL code to GPL code 
> result in something other than GPL code ?
> 
>  From a practical standpoint, I think we need to figure out how to get 
> networked drives connected to LinuxCNC if we want LinuxCNC to live on.
> At some point analog servo drive interfaces will become like 5 1/4" 
> floppy drives...    They were once common.

Yes.

Michael Büsch already implemented a profibus master. I have it running against 
an IO module and millions of these kind of devices have been sold. I think he 
implemented on Rasberry and I had some timing issue before running on ordinary 
computer but have not looked further because I have been busy with something 
really good for servos and looking for a new woman.

Bandwidth required to replace an analog signal may be surprisingly high and for 
a control loop even though there are plenty of bandwidth it need to split in 
many small messages. Ethercat solve this problem in a similar way as cascade 
coupled shift registers.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-developers] Ethercat driver

2018-01-17 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 17 January 2018 09:27:25 Dave Cole wrote:

> The text below is at the end of the SOEM page from the link below.
> https://openethercatsociety.github.io/doc/soem/index.html
>
> So how does this work??   The SOEM software itself is GPL, but if you
> implement an Ethercat master, you need to get a license ??
>
> That's an interesting approach.
>
> If the SOEM code is all GPL, then how could adding GPL code to GPL
> code result in something other than GPL code ?
>
>  From a practical standpoint, I think we need to figure out how to get
> networked drives connected to LinuxCNC if we want LinuxCNC to live on.
> At some point analog servo drive interfaces will become like 5 1/4"
> floppy drives...    They were once common.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> SOEM is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under
> the terms of the GNU General Public License version 2 as published by
> the Free Software Foundation.
>
That says it all since the GPLv2, the last time I read it, did not allow 
further restrictions. But just to keep the legal types under control, I 
think I'd want to see a court precedence judgement saying so.

Fork it, changing its name so as not to clash with their trademarks seems 
like the best way forward.

> SOEM is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT
> ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or
> FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License
> for more details.
>
> As a special exception, if other files instantiate templates or use
> macros or inline functions from this file, or you compile this file
> and link it with other works to produce a work based on this file,
> this file does not by itself cause the resulting work to be covered by
> the GNU General Public License. However the source code for this file
> must still be made available in accordance with section (3) of the GNU
> General Public License.
>
> This exception does not invalidate any other reasons why a work based
> on this file might be covered by the GNU General Public License.
>
> The EtherCAT Technology, the trade name and logo "EtherCAT" are the
> intellectual property of, and protected by Beckhoff Automation GmbH.
> You can use SOEM for the sole purpose of creating, using and/or
> selling or otherwise distributing an EtherCAT network master provided
> that an EtherCAT Master License is obtained from Beckhoff Automation
> GmbH.
>
> In case you did not receive a copy of the EtherCAT Master License
> along with SOEM write to Beckhoff Automation GmbH, Eiserstrasse 5,
> D-33415 Verl, Germany (www.beckhoff.com).
>
>
> 
>
> On 1/16/2018 8:51 PM, Jeff Epler wrote:
> > Our policy is that any code added to LinuxCNC has to be compatible
> > with the license terms "GPL version 2 or any later version".
> > https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLCompatibleLicenses
> >
> > Anything that imposes a restriction on how the software can be used
> > (for example, if it is claimed that using the software requires an
> > additional license, as Beckhoff Automation GmbH reportedly does)
> > cannot be incorporated.
> >
> > For a rather old thread on exactly the same topic, see this one from
> > 2013:
> > https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-developers/thread/20131022
> >150751.GB2631%40unpythonic.net/
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > 
> >-- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
> > most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
The above content, added by Maurice E. Heskett, is Copyright 2018 by 
Maurice E. Heskett.
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-developers] Ethercat driver

2018-01-17 Thread Dave Cole 

The text below is at the end of the SOEM page from the link below.
https://openethercatsociety.github.io/doc/soem/index.html

So how does this work??   The SOEM software itself is GPL, but if you 
implement an Ethercat master, you need to get a license ??


That's an interesting approach.

If the SOEM code is all GPL, then how could adding GPL code to GPL code 
result in something other than GPL code ?


From a practical standpoint, I think we need to figure out how to get 
networked drives connected to LinuxCNC if we want LinuxCNC to live on.
At some point analog servo drive interfaces will become like 5 1/4" 
floppy drives...    They were once common.


Dave

>

SOEM is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under 
the terms of the GNU General Public License version 2 as published by 
the Free Software Foundation.


SOEM is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY 
WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or 
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for 
more details.


As a special exception, if other files instantiate templates or use 
macros or inline functions from this file, or you compile this file and 
link it with other works to produce a work based on this file, this file 
does not by itself cause the resulting work to be covered by the GNU 
General Public License. However the source code for this file must still 
be made available in accordance with section (3) of the GNU General 
Public License.


This exception does not invalidate any other reasons why a work based on 
this file might be covered by the GNU General Public License.


The EtherCAT Technology, the trade name and logo "EtherCAT" are the 
intellectual property of, and protected by Beckhoff Automation GmbH. You 
can use SOEM for the sole purpose of creating, using and/or selling or 
otherwise distributing an EtherCAT network master provided that an 
EtherCAT Master License is obtained from Beckhoff Automation GmbH.


In case you did not receive a copy of the EtherCAT Master License along 
with SOEM write to Beckhoff Automation GmbH, Eiserstrasse 5, D-33415 
Verl, Germany (www.beckhoff.com).





On 1/16/2018 8:51 PM, Jeff Epler wrote:

Our policy is that any code added to LinuxCNC has to be compatible with
the license terms "GPL version 2 or any later version".
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLCompatibleLicenses

Anything that imposes a restriction on how the software can be used (for
example, if it is claimed that using the software requires an additional
license, as Beckhoff Automation GmbH reportedly does) cannot be
incorporated.

For a rather old thread on exactly the same topic, see this one from
2013:
https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-developers/thread/20131022150751.GB2631%40unpythonic.net/

Jeff

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