Re: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

2008-10-31 Thread John Woodgate 

In message <8A23BE5F815D41408CB01F1F4621F88E0395E8E1@S1.DLSEMC.local>, 
dated Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Bill Stumpf  writes:


>While I agree that the advice in the TGN was somewhat ambiguous, one 
>could have easily justified the use of FCC limits, test methods, and 
>criteria for testing above 1GHz.  At the time nothing else was 
>available.

Well, maybe. But there is no guarantee that IF a European regulator 
queried the product, mention of 'FCC' might do more harm than good. NIH, 
you know.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

2008-10-31 Thread Bill Stumpf 
While I agree that the advice in the TGN was somewhat ambiguous, one
could have easily justified the use of FCC limits, test methods, and
criteria for testing above 1GHz.  At the time nothing else was
available.

Bill



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John
Woodgate
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 9:33 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

In message <8A23BE5F815D41408CB01F1F4621F88E0395E879@S1.DLSEMC.local>,
dated Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Bill Stumpf  writes:


>Basically it states that if a product has the potential to interfere at

>frequencies above 1GHz, it should be checked using appropriate limits 
>and test methods.

WHAT 'test methods'? WHAT 'appropriate limits'? I think the advice is 
very unsatisfactory.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to
stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You
choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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RE: HP Hardware Update

2008-10-31 Thread Ralph McDiarmid 
I dare say that you can likely find a NIB replacement CRT from one or two
vendors in the USA.A Google search may be all that’s needed to locate
one.  

Ralph McDiarmid, AScT 
Compliance Engineering Group 
Xantrex Technology Inc. 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:11 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: HP Hardware Update

 

This isn't an ad, just info about a test hardware resource. All the usual
disclaimers. I'm sending this as an FYI to owners of old HP spectrum or
network analyzers.

 

I have an HP-8562A spectrum analyzer that is a very valued resource, but the
display CRT is nearing the end of its life (it's dim and the focus is pretty
bad). Unfortunately, HP doesn't stock the tubes for these old analyzers (or
for other 85xx, 86xx, 4195, etc analyzers too).

 

Now there's a great opportunity to prolong the service of those old analyzers
(and maybe bring some back from the dead). A company called National Test
Equipment (in Oceanside):

 

http://www.ntecusa.com/sales/dsp_model.cfm?modelID=21481

 

offers a drop-in LCD replacement display that replaces your old analyzer's
CRT, HV and driver circuits. Your analyzer will run cooler, last longer on
battery and weigh a bit less. The cost is $1,795, installed, with a 6 to 12
month warranty.

 

 

Ed Price

ed.pr...@cubic.com mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com>  WB6WSN

NARTE Certified EMC Engineer & Technician

Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab

Cubic Defense Applications

San Diego, CA  USA

858-505-2780 (Voice)

858-505-1583 (FAX)

Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty

 

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HF body model - Touch test

2008-10-31 Thread Pete Perkins 
Bob et al,

The 1 MHz demarcation is an arbitrary, historical division between
electrical safety folks and EMC folks.  

From a physiological point of view the model of the body at very HF
(>1 MHz, etc) is not well described by a simple electrical model.  Workers
in the field are now moving to a full body model built from MRI/CAT scan
data in which each body element (on the order of a few mm or smaller) are
defined by tissue (bone, blood muscle, etc) and assigned electrical
parameters appropriate for the frequency being investigated.  This is
usually run on a pretty hi powered computer.  

Most of this is so complex that it is being done by Univ researchers
and their graduate students, who, as you might expect, publish the results
at a high level to get proper credit for the work & enhance their
credentials.  You can find some of their papers by searching from the Inet.


You may be familiar with some of the work on the effect of cell
phone RF on the human head; this is one of the typical studies done this
way.  

There is a body model available that will run on PCs (but I don't
have it) that works this way (but, apparently, not as fine grained as some
of the Univ models).  One paper that I have seen privately discussed took
many 10's of hours per case on an engineering level PC.  It appears to be
able to give reasonable results.  

I would encourage anyone on this list to pursue this approach if
they have a serious interest in the flow of electric current in the body.  

So, now you know.  Thanx for asking.  

:>) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 


From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 5:06 AM
To: Pete Perkins
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Touch test

Pete (or anyone on the list), do you know of a human body circuit model
that is above 1 MHz? The circuits that are talked about below only go to a
megahertz.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
===


   
 "Pete Perkins"
 To 
 Sent by:  "'Mike Hurley'" 
 emc-p...@ieee.org

cc 
 10/16/2008 11:25  
 AMSubject 
   RE: Touch test  
   
   
   
   
   
   




Mike,

The Touch Current test circuits are taken directly from IEC
60990 (Measurement of Touch Current and Protective Conductor Current).

A collection of Touch Current measurements measured with the
circuit that includes the frequency compensation network shown in these
standards (called the Perception-Reaction network) can be found at
www.safetylink.com by searching on perkins.

:>) br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org

  -Original Message-
  From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike
  Hurley
  Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:35 AM
  To: emc-p...@ieee.org
  Subject: Touch test

  Can anyone tell me if the touch test circuits of 60950 and 60065 are
  the same?

  Mike Hurley

  Director
  Mead testing ltd

  mikehur...@meadtest.com
  www.meadtest.com
  phone 44 (0) 1279 635865
  fax   44 (0) 1279 635874
  Mead Testing Limited is a company registered in England with company
  number 4572600 whose registered office is: Unit 25 Mead Park, River
  Way, Harlow,  CM20 2SE.  VAT number: 802 3904 59



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RE: BS EN 55022:1996

2008-10-31 Thread Pettit, Ghery 
You are correct.  It is not.  And rumor has it that CENELEC got it (the
amendment) out too late to make the next list for the OJ, but we’ll have to
see when that is finally published.

 

Are we having fun yet?  :-)

 

Ghery Pettit

 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim Hulbert
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:37 AM
To: EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)
Subject: FW: BS EN 55022:1996

 

Below is a response I received today from BSI regarding the subject standard. 
I guess the missing link (for me anyway) was that I never received corrigendum
1-16829 which removed section 6.2 from the standard.

 

Regarding A1:2007, 6.2 is back in.  However, since A1:2007 is not yet
published in the OJ (I don't think), then it's not yet applicable under the
EMC Directive.  Please correct me if I am misunderstanding anything.

 

Jim Hulbert, Group Leader

TSO Competitive & Compliance Engineering

Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT   06484

Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621)

Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352)

 

From: Library [mailto:library.libr...@bsigroup.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 11:07 AM
To: Jim Hulbert
Subject: RE: BS EN 55022:1996

 

Dear Mr Hulbert

 

Thank you for your email. I have looked at the various amended versions of
that standard and that table has changed over time. The original issue in 2006
had section 6.2, including table 8 and 9. In the first amended version
(corrigendum 1- 16829) section 6.2 appears not to be in the standard.

 

However in the current version of the standard BS EN 55022:2006+A1:2007
  this section
has been inserted by IEC Amendment 1 (see the foreword). This is indicated by
the A1 tags. Therefore the current version of this standard does have a
section 6.2. If you believe that there is an error in the standard then please
let us know.

 

Kind regards

 

Kind regards

Bethan Carter

Resource Centre Manager

BSI Resource Centre

_

 

BSI British Standards

BSI Group Headquarters, 389 Chiswick High Road, London, W4 4AL, UK

T: +44 (0)20 8996 7004

F: +44 (0)20 8996 7005

E: libr...@bsigroup.com  

W: www.bsigroup.com   

 

(Please note change of email and web address to bsigroup.com, and update your
records accordingly)

 

P Please consider the environment before printing this email

 

 



From: Jim Hulbert [mailto:jim.hulb...@pb.com] 
Sent: 30 October 2008 20:33
To: cservices
Cc: jay.winin...@ihs.com
Subject: BS EN 55022:1996

 

My company purchases BSI standards through IHS (formerly Global Engineering
Documents).  One of the standards we have purchased is BS EN 55022:2006, which
is listed in the Official Journal under the EMC  Directive.

 

It has recently come to my attention that the initial issue of this standard
was withdrawn by BSI due to an error.   I've been told that section 6.2
(radiated emissions above 1 GHz) should not have been included in the standard
and that there was a subsequent re-issue of the standard which deleted that
section.   The standard that we purchased does include section 6.2.

 

Please confirm whether or not  EN 55022:2006 was in fact re-issued with
section 6.2 (radiated emissions above 1 GHz) removed.   IHS is unable to
confirm this for me.

 

Best regards, 

 

Jim Hulbert, Group Leader

TSO Competitive & Compliance Engineering

Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT  06484

Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621)

Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352)

 



Visit the BSI website at www.bsigroup.com

This email may contain confidential information and/or copyright
material.  This email is intended for the use of the addressee only.
Any unauthorised use may be unlawful.  If you receive this email
by mistake, please advise the sender immediately by using the
reply facility in your email software.

Thank you for your cooperation.



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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-p

FW: BS EN 55022:1996

2008-10-31 Thread Jim Hulbert 
Below is a response I received today from BSI regarding the subject standard. 
I guess the missing link (for me anyway) was that I never received corrigendum
1-16829 which removed section 6.2 from the standard.

 

Regarding A1:2007, 6.2 is back in.  However, since A1:2007 is not yet
published in the OJ (I don't think), then it's not yet applicable under the
EMC Directive.  Please correct me if I am misunderstanding anything.

 

Jim Hulbert, Group Leader

TSO Competitive & Compliance Engineering

Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT  06484

Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621)

Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352)

 

From: Library [mailto:library.libr...@bsigroup.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 11:07 AM
To: Jim Hulbert
Subject: RE: BS EN 55022:1996

 

Dear Mr Hulbert

 

Thank you for your email. I have looked at the various amended versions of
that standard and that table has changed over time. The original issue in 2006
had section 6.2, including table 8 and 9. In the first amended version
(corrigendum 1- 16829) section 6.2 appears not to be in the standard.

 

However in the current version of the standard BS EN 55022:2006+A1:2007
  this section
has been inserted by IEC Amendment 1 (see the foreword). This is indicated by
the A1 tags. Therefore the current version of this standard does have a
section 6.2. If you believe that there is an error in the standard then please
let us know.

 

Kind regards

 

Kind regards

Bethan Carter

Resource Centre Manager

BSI Resource Centre

_

 

BSI British Standards

BSI Group Headquarters, 389 Chiswick High Road, London, W4 4AL, UK

T: +44 (0)20 8996 7004

F: +44 (0)20 8996 7005

E: libr...@bsigroup.com  

W: www.bsigroup.com   

 

(Please note change of email and web address to bsigroup.com, and update your
records accordingly)

 

P Please consider the environment before printing this email

 

 



From: Jim Hulbert [mailto:jim.hulb...@pb.com] 
Sent: 30 October 2008 20:33
To: cservices
Cc: jay.winin...@ihs.com
Subject: BS EN 55022:1996

 

My company purchases BSI standards through IHS (formerly Global Engineering
Documents).  One of the standards we have purchased is BS EN 55022:2006, which
is listed in the Official Journal under the EMC  Directive.

 

It has recently come to my attention that the initial issue of this standard
was withdrawn by BSI due to an error.   I've been told that section 6.2
(radiated emissions above 1 GHz) should not have been included in the standard
and that there was a subsequent re-issue of the standard which deleted that
section.   The standard that we purchased does include section 6.2.

 

Please confirm whether or not  EN 55022:2006 was in fact re-issued with
section 6.2 (radiated emissions above 1 GHz) removed.   IHS is unable to
confirm this for me.

 

Best regards, 

 

Jim Hulbert, Group Leader

TSO Competitive & Compliance Engineering

Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT  06484

Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621)

Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352)

 



Visit the BSI website at www.bsigroup.com

This email may contain confidential information and/or copyright
material.  This email is intended for the use of the addressee only.
Any unauthorised use may be unlawful.  If you receive this email
by mistake, please advise the sender immediately by using the
reply facility in your email software.

Thank you for your cooperation.



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Re: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

2008-10-31 Thread John Woodgate 

In message <8A23BE5F815D41408CB01F1F4621F88E0395E879@S1.DLSEMC.local>, 
dated Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Bill Stumpf  writes:


>Basically it states that if a product has the potential to interfere at 
>frequencies above 1GHz, it should be checked using appropriate limits 
>and test methods.

WHAT 'test methods'? WHAT 'appropriate limits'? I think the advice is 
very unsatisfactory.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

2008-10-31 Thread Bill Stumpf 
Way back in 2003 this issue was addressed in an ECACB (now ECANB)
Technical Guidance Note (TGN 9), which we've been using since then.
Basically it states that if a product has the potential to interfere at
frequencies above 1GHz, it should be checked using appropriate limits
and test methods.  It is important to remember that using harmonized
standards only gives the presumption of conformity.  

This TGN is available on the CIRCA website
[circa.europa.eu/Public/irc/enterprise/emccbnb/home]


Bill Stumpf
D.L.S. Electronic Systems, Inc.
EMC Testing & Consulting
166 South Carter Street
Genoa City WI, 53128
262-279-0210
 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim
Hulbert
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:38 AM
To: Haynes, Tim (SELEX GALILEO, UK)
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

Tim - true enough, and as Engineers we can't disagree from a technical
perspective. However, manufacturers are going to test only to what they
HAVE to test to, i.e. there is a presumption of conformity with the EMC
Directive if the manufacturer applies those standards published in the
OJ that apply to his product.  Apparently for EN 55022 that is still the
1 GHz max frequency for measurement.  For time-to-market and cost
reasons, they stop there.

Jim Hulbert, Group Leader
TSO Competitive & Compliance Engineering Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview
Drive, Shelton, CT  06484
Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621)
Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352)



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Haynes,
Tim (SELEX GALILEO, UK)
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:30 AM
To: rehel...@mmm.com; Pettit, Ghery
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

Ghery, Rob, all

Remember that when you apply a standard you are doing so on the basis
that the standard covers ALL the product EMC characteristics.

IF you design a PC with a 3GHz clock and only apply a standard with a
1GHz limit and then there is a problem with real interference at 3GHz,
the authorities may not believe that due diligence had been applied.

So I would start asking - what does the product do - and then find
standards that may be useful in making your EMC assessment.

Regards
Tim




Tim Haynes A1N10
Electromagnetic Engineering Specialist
SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems
300 Capability Green
Luton LU1 3PG
Tel  : +44 (0)1582 886239
Fax : +44 (0)1582 795863
Mob: +44 (0)7703 559 310
* E-mail : tim.hay...@selexgalileo.com

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
There are 10 types of people in the world-those who understand binary
and those who don't. J. Paxman



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
rehel...@mmm.com
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 6:57 AM
To: Pettit, Ghery
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

  *** WARNING ***

This mail has originated outside your organization, either from an
external partner or the Global Internet.
 Keep this in mind if you answer this message.

So if I understand this, there is no testing  required for Europe above
a gigahertz for EN 55022 at this time?

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
=




 "Pettit, Ghery"

 
To
   "rehel...@mmm.com"

 10/30/2008 04:47  

 PM
cc
   "emc-p...@ieee.org"

   


Subject
   RE: Radiated Emission
Measurements
   above 1GHz

















That is correct.  It was quickly withdrawn and reissued without the
limits above 1 GHz.  I'm still waiting for my updated copy from Global,
too.  :-)


From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:54 AM
To: Pettit, Ghery
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

Ghery, are you saying that the BS version has the error and was
withdrawn?
If so we were not notified of this action by British Standards. We get
their standards through their subscription service.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
===



 Robert E.
 Heller/US-Corpora
 te/3M/US
To
   "Pettit, Ghery"
 10/30/2008 03:45  
 AM
cc
   "emc-p...@ieee.org"
   

Subject
   RE: Radiated Emission
Measurements
   above 1GHz(Document link: Robert
E.
   Heller)









So what is the bottom l

Re: BS EN 55022

2008-10-31 Thread John Woodgate 

In message 
<72b8947772cf0948adaa9853631663fb20c833e...@pbi-namsg-02.mgdpbi.global.pv
t>, dated Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Jim Hulbert  writes:


>But unless A1 is published in the OJ, it is not a harmonized standard 
>under the EMC Directive, correct?

Your point is correct but since the dow date 2010-10-01 appears in the 
standard, and the docopocoss very rarely differs from the dow, ...
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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Re: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

2008-10-31 Thread John Woodgate 

In message 
<201048ea81ba0745aca78e4cc8839001037cf...@desmdswms201.des.grplnk.net>, 
dated Fri, 31 Oct 2008, "Haynes, Tim (SELEX GALILEO, UK)" 
 writes:


>Remember that when you apply a standard you are doing so on the basis 
>that the standard covers ALL the product EMC characteristics.
>
>IF you design a PC with a 3GHz clock and only apply a standard with a 
>1GHz limit and then there is a problem with real interference at 3GHz, 
>the authorities may not believe that due diligence had been applied.
>
>So I would start asking - what does the product do - and then find 
>standards that may be useful in making your EMC assessment.

In almost all circumstances there is NO legal requirement in Europe to 
do this. If the applicable product standard does  not cover a particular 
frequency range, the committee concerned saw no need for limits in that 
range, and by notifying the standard in the OJEC, the Commission has 
accepted that the standard gives prima facie evidence of complying with 
the Directive.

You DO NOT have to trawl though all the EMC standards that exist, 
looking for another one to apply, almost certainly OUTSIDE ITS SCOPE.

However, self-interest may suggest that if you know of any EMC effect 
not covered by the applicable standards, you should consider how to test 
and what VOLUNTARY limits to apply.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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 Mike Cantwell   mcantw...@ieee.org

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RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

2008-10-31 Thread Jim Hulbert 
Tim - true enough, and as Engineers we can't disagree from a technical 
perspective. However, manufacturers are going to test only to what they HAVE to 
test to, i.e. there is a presumption of conformity with the EMC Directive if 
the manufacturer applies those standards published in the OJ that apply to his 
product.  Apparently for EN 55022 that is still the 1 GHz max frequency for 
measurement.  For time-to-market and cost reasons, they stop there.

Jim Hulbert, Group Leader
TSO Competitive & Compliance Engineering
Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT  06484
Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621)
Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352)



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Haynes, Tim 
(SELEX GALILEO, UK)
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:30 AM
To: rehel...@mmm.com; Pettit, Ghery
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

Ghery, Rob, all

Remember that when you apply a standard you are doing so on the basis
that the standard covers ALL the product EMC characteristics.

IF you design a PC with a 3GHz clock and only apply a standard with a
1GHz limit and then there is a problem with real interference at 3GHz,
the authorities may not believe that due diligence had been applied.

So I would start asking - what does the product do - and then find
standards that may be useful in making your EMC assessment.

Regards
Tim




Tim Haynes A1N10
Electromagnetic Engineering Specialist
SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems
300 Capability Green
Luton LU1 3PG
Tel  : +44 (0)1582 886239
Fax : +44 (0)1582 795863
Mob: +44 (0)7703 559 310
* E-mail : tim.hay...@selexgalileo.com

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
There are 10 types of people in the world-those who understand binary
and those who don't. J. Paxman



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
rehel...@mmm.com
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 6:57 AM
To: Pettit, Ghery
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

  *** WARNING ***

This mail has originated outside your organization, either from an
external partner or the Global Internet.
 Keep this in mind if you answer this message.

So if I understand this, there is no testing  required for Europe above
a gigahertz for EN 55022 at this time?

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
=




 "Pettit, Ghery"

 
To
   "rehel...@mmm.com"

 10/30/2008 04:47  

 PM
cc
   "emc-p...@ieee.org"

   


Subject
   RE: Radiated Emission
Measurements
   above 1GHz

















That is correct.  It was quickly withdrawn and reissued without the
limits above 1 GHz.  I'm still waiting for my updated copy from Global,
too.  :-)


From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:54 AM
To: Pettit, Ghery
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

Ghery, are you saying that the BS version has the error and was
withdrawn?
If so we were not notified of this action by British Standards. We get
their standards through their subscription service.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
===



 Robert E.
 Heller/US-Corpora
 te/3M/US
To
   "Pettit, Ghery"
 10/30/2008 03:45  
 AM
cc
   "emc-p...@ieee.org"
   

Subject
   RE: Radiated Emission
Measurements
   above 1GHz(Document link: Robert
E.
   Heller)









So what is the bottom line? Are there or are there not limits for Europe
(EN 55022) above a gig?

I have copies of both BS EN 55022:2006 and BS EN 55022:2006 +A1:2007
Incorporating corrigendum no. 1. Both standards have a section 6.2 and
both standards have limits from 1 to 6 GHz. BS EN 55022:2006 is listed
in the OJ so I assume that it is valid.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252




 "Pettit, Ghery"
 
To
 Sent by:  Jim Hulbert 
 emc-p...@ieee.org "Flavin, John"
   
   "emc-p...@ieee.org"
 10/29/2008 08:45  
 PM
cc


Subject

RE: BS EN 55022

2008-10-31 Thread Jim Hulbert 
But unless A1 is published in the OJ, it is not a harmonized standard under the 
EMC Directive, correct?

Jim Hulbert, Group Leader
TSO Competitive & Compliance Engineering
Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT  06484
Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621)
Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352)


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 3:32 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: BS EN 55022

In message
,
dated Fri, 31 Oct 2008, "Price, Andrew (SELEX GALILEO, UK)"
 writes:


>Have just checked the BS EN document page for BS EN 55022, the version
>listed 30-11-2006 which is listed as active is version BS EN 55022:2006
>+A1:2007. This document includes limits for Radiated Emissions above
>1GHz in Section 6.2 Tables 8 and 9.

But you have to look at the Endorsement Notice in the standard itself.
Amendment 1 does not come into mandatory effect until 2010-10-01
--

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
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 Mike Cantwell   mcantw...@ieee.org

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RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

2008-10-31 Thread Haynes, Tim (SELEX GALILEO, UK) 
All,

Sorry I should have said "under the EMC Directive" in relation to my
last e-mail.

Regards
Tim 




Tim Haynes A1N10
Electromagnetic Engineering Specialist
SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems 
300 Capability Green
Luton LU1 3PG

Tel  : +44 (0)1582 886239
Fax : +44 (0)1582 795863
Mob: +44 (0)7703 559 310
* E-mail : tim.hay...@selexgalileo.com
P Please consider the environment before printing this email. 
There are 10 types of people in the world-those who understand binary
and those who don't. J. Paxman

SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Limited
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14 
3EL
A company registered in England & Wales.  Company no. 02426132

This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
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 Scott Douglas   emcp...@ptcnh.net
 Mike Cantwell   mcantw...@ieee.org

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 Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org
 David Heald:   dhe...@gmail.com

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc

RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

2008-10-31 Thread Haynes, Tim (SELEX GALILEO, UK) 
Ghery, Rob, all

Remember that when you apply a standard you are doing so on the basis
that the standard covers ALL the product EMC characteristics.

IF you design a PC with a 3GHz clock and only apply a standard with a
1GHz limit and then there is a problem with real interference at 3GHz,
the authorities may not believe that due diligence had been applied.

So I would start asking - what does the product do - and then find
standards that may be useful in making your EMC assessment.

Regards
Tim 




Tim Haynes A1N10
Electromagnetic Engineering Specialist
SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems 
300 Capability Green
Luton LU1 3PG
Tel  : +44 (0)1582 886239
Fax : +44 (0)1582 795863
Mob: +44 (0)7703 559 310
* E-mail : tim.hay...@selexgalileo.com

Please consider the environment before printing this email. 
There are 10 types of people in the world-those who understand binary
and those who don't. J. Paxman



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
rehel...@mmm.com
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 6:57 AM
To: Pettit, Ghery
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

  *** WARNING ***

This mail has originated outside your organization, either from an
external partner or the Global Internet. 
 Keep this in mind if you answer this message. 

So if I understand this, there is no testing  required for Europe above
a gigahertz for EN 55022 at this time?

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
=


 

 "Pettit, Ghery"

 
To 
   "rehel...@mmm.com"

 10/30/2008 04:47  

 PM
cc 
   "emc-p...@ieee.org"

   

 
Subject 
   RE: Radiated Emission
Measurements  
   above 1GHz

 

 

 

 

 

 





That is correct.  It was quickly withdrawn and reissued without the
limits above 1 GHz.  I'm still waiting for my updated copy from Global,
too.  :-)


From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:54 AM
To: Pettit, Ghery
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

Ghery, are you saying that the BS version has the error and was
withdrawn?
If so we were not notified of this action by British Standards. We get
their standards through their subscription service.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
===



 Robert E.
 Heller/US-Corpora
 te/3M/US
To
   "Pettit, Ghery"
 10/30/2008 03:45  
 AM
cc
   "emc-p...@ieee.org"
   
 
Subject
   RE: Radiated Emission
Measurements
   above 1GHz(Document link: Robert
E.
   Heller)









So what is the bottom line? Are there or are there not limits for Europe
(EN 55022) above a gig?

I have copies of both BS EN 55022:2006 and BS EN 55022:2006 +A1:2007
Incorporating corrigendum no. 1. Both standards have a section 6.2 and
both standards have limits from 1 to 6 GHz. BS EN 55022:2006 is listed
in the OJ so I assume that it is valid.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252




 "Pettit, Ghery"
 
To
 Sent by:  Jim Hulbert 
 emc-p...@ieee.org "Flavin, John"
   
   "emc-p...@ieee.org"
 10/29/2008 08:45  
 PM
cc

 
Subject
   RE: Radiated Emission
Measurements
   above 1GHz










You must have an early copy put out by BSI.  They made a mistake and
included Amendment 1 to CISPR 22, Edition 5.0 and withdrew it promptly
when I pointed out their error.  Limits above 1 GHz should not be
included in EN 55022:2006.

Ghery S. Pettit, NCE
Convener, CISPR SC I WG3



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim
Hulbert
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:09 AM
To: Flavin, John; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

EN 55022:2006 does indeed include the limits for radiated emissions in
the
range 1 GHz to 6 GHz.  Look at section 6.2.   This standard is published
in
the OJ and becomes compulsory under the EMC Directive as of 1 Oct 2009.

Jim Hulbert, Group Leader
TSO Competitive & Compliance Engineering

RE: Touch test

2008-10-31 Thread reheller 
Pete (or anyone on the list), do you know of a human body circuit model
that is above 1 MHz? The circuits that are talked about below only go to a
megahertz.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
===


   
 "Pete Perkins"
 To 
 Sent by:  "'Mike Hurley'" 
 emc-p...@ieee.org

cc 
 10/16/2008 11:25  
 AMSubject 
   RE: Touch test  
   
   
   
   
   
   




Mike,

The Touch Current test circuits are taken directly from IEC
60990 (Measurement of Touch Current and Protective Conductor Current).

A collection of Touch Current measurements measured with the
circuit that includes the frequency compensation network shown in these
standards (called the Perception-Reaction network) can be found at
www.safetylink.com by searching on perkins.

:>) br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org

  -Original Message-
  From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike
  Hurley
  Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:35 AM
  To: emc-p...@ieee.org
  Subject: Touch test

  Can anyone tell me if the touch test circuits of 60950 and 60065 are
  the same?

  Mike Hurley

  Director
  Mead testing ltd

  mikehur...@meadtest.com
  www.meadtest.com
  phone 44 (0) 1279 635865
  fax   44 (0) 1279 635874
  Mead Testing Limited is a company registered in England with company
  number 4572600 whose registered office is: Unit 25 Mead Park, River
  Way, Harlow,  CM20 2SE.  VAT number: 802 3904 59



-



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RE: BS EN 55022

2008-10-31 Thread Gert Gremmen 
I thought id might help if I’d resume

the information I have on hand:

 

 

CISPR 22 : 1985  (ed1)  -- EN 55022:1987 (mod) (listed OJ C99:2000)

CISPR 22:1993   (ed2)  --  EN 55022:1994(mod) (listed in OJ C99:2000 +A1+A2)

CISPR 22:1997  (ed3)  --  EN 55022:1998 (mod) (listed in  OJ  C99:2000 +A1+A2)
CURRENT 

CISPR 22: 2005? (ed4)  -- not published as EN ?

CISPR 22: 200? (ed5.2)  --  EN 55022:2006 (mod)  listed in OJ C314:2006) 
MANDATORY per 2009

CISPR 22: 2008 (ed6) --  approved in sept 2008

 

Please correct and add as appropriate …. for the lists benefit !

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen





ce-test, qualified testing bv

 

 

Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Gert Gremmen
Verzonden: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:18 AM
Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org; Pettit, Ghery
Onderwerp: RE: BS EN 55022

 

Ghery,

 

Could you in short resume the links between

de dated versions of :

 

CISPR 22 :  dated and their corresponding  edition numbers

EN 55022 dated versions versus CISPR 22 edition numbers they were based on

 

And if there were any (common) modifications between CISPR 22 and

the corresponding EN 55022 

 

I’d love to have this information from the 1998 version off.

 

One of the reason is that I cannot find an edition 5 for CISPR 22.

 

Thanks for helping me (us)  out.

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen





ce-test, qualified testing bv

 

 

Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Price, Andrew (SELEX
GALILEO, UK)
Verzonden: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:07 AM
Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org
Onderwerp: BS EN 55022

 

all 

 

Have just checked the BS EN document page for BS EN 55022, the version listed
30-11-2006 which is listed as active is version BS EN 55022:2006 +A1:2007.
This document includes limits for Radiated Emissions above 1GHz in Section 6.2
Tables 8 and 9.

 

Regards

Andy

 

 

Andrew P. Price

Principle Hardware Engineer, EMC Specialist

 

SELEX GALILEO, Sensors & Airborne Systems

Christopher Martin Road

Basildon

Essex SS14 3EL

Mail Ref : K160

 

( Tel  Direct   : +44 (0)1268 887271

( Tel  EMC LAB   : +44 (0)1268 883308

)Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888

 

P Please consider the environment before printing this email. 

 

 

SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Limited
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14
3EL
A company registered in England & Wales. Company no. 02426132

This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.


-


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Re: BS EN 55022

2008-10-31 Thread John Woodgate 

In message 
, 
dated Fri, 31 Oct 2008, "Price, Andrew (SELEX GALILEO, UK)" 
 writes:


>Have just checked the BS EN document page for BS EN 55022, the version 
>listed 30-11-2006 which is listed as active is version BS EN 55022:2006 
>+A1:2007. This document includes limits for Radiated Emissions above 
>1GHz in Section 6.2 Tables 8 and 9.

But you have to look at the Endorsement Notice in the standard itself. 
Amendment 1 does not come into mandatory effect until 2010-10-01
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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RE: BS EN 55022

2008-10-31 Thread Gert Gremmen 
Ghery,

 

Could you in short resume the links between

de dated versions of :

 

CISPR 22 :  dated and their corresponding  edition numbers

EN 55022 dated versions versus CISPR 22 edition numbers they were based on

 

And if there were any (common) modifications between CISPR 22 and

the corresponding EN 55022 

 

I’d love to have this information from the 1998 version off.

 

One of the reason is that I cannot find an edition 5 for CISPR 22.

 

Thanks for helping me (us)  out.

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen





ce-test, qualified testing bv

 

 

Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Price, Andrew (SELEX
GALILEO, UK)
Verzonden: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:07 AM
Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org
Onderwerp: BS EN 55022

 

all 

 

Have just checked the BS EN document page for BS EN 55022, the version listed
30-11-2006 which is listed as active is version BS EN 55022:2006 +A1:2007.
This document includes limits for Radiated Emissions above 1GHz in Section 6.2
Tables 8 and 9.

 

Regards

Andy

 

 

Andrew P. Price

Principle Hardware Engineer, EMC Specialist

 

SELEX GALILEO, Sensors & Airborne Systems

Christopher Martin Road

Basildon

Essex SS14 3EL

Mail Ref : K160

 

( Tel  Direct   : +44 (0)1268 887271

( Tel  EMC LAB   : +44 (0)1268 883308

)Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888

 

P Please consider the environment before printing this email. 

 

 

SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Limited
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14
3EL
A company registered in England & Wales. Company no. 02426132

This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.


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BS EN 55022

2008-10-31 Thread Price, Andrew (SELEX GALILEO, UK) 
all 
 
Have just checked the BS EN document page for BS EN 55022, the version listed
30-11-2006 which is listed as active is version BS EN 55022:2006 +A1:2007.
This document includes limits for Radiated Emissions above 1GHz in Section 6.2
Tables 8 and 9.
 
Regards
Andy
 
 
Andrew P. Price

Principle Hardware Engineer, EMC Specialist

 

SELEX GALILEO, Sensors & Airborne Systems

Christopher Martin Road

Basildon

Essex SS14 3EL

Mail Ref : K160

 

( Tel  Direct   : +44 (0)1268 887271

( Tel  EMC LAB   : +44 (0)1268 883308

)Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888

  

P Please consider the environment before printing this email. 

 
 
SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Limited
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14
3EL
A company registered in England & Wales. Company no. 02426132

This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.




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RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

2008-10-31 Thread reheller 
So if I understand this, there is no testing  required for Europe above a
gigahertz for EN 55022 at this time?

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
=


   
 "Pettit, Ghery"   
 To 
   "rehel...@mmm.com"  
 10/30/2008 04:47
 PM cc 
   "emc-p...@ieee.org" 

   Subject 
   RE: Radiated Emission Measurements  
   above 1GHz  
   
   
   
   
   
   




That is correct.  It was quickly withdrawn and reissued without the limits
above 1 GHz.  I'm still waiting for my updated copy from Global, too.  :-)


From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:54 AM
To: Pettit, Ghery
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

Ghery, are you saying that the BS version has the error and was withdrawn?
If so we were not notified of this action by British Standards. We get
their standards through their subscription service.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
===



 Robert E.
 Heller/US-Corpora
 te/3M/US   To
   "Pettit, Ghery"
 10/30/2008 03:45  
 AM cc
   "emc-p...@ieee.org"
   
   Subject
   RE: Radiated Emission Measurements
   above 1GHz(Document link: Robert E.
   Heller)









So what is the bottom line? Are there or are there not limits for Europe
(EN 55022) above a gig?

I have copies of both BS EN 55022:2006 and BS EN 55022:2006 +A1:2007
Incorporating corrigendum no. 1. Both standards have a section 6.2 and both
standards have limits from 1 to 6 GHz. BS EN 55022:2006 is listed in the OJ
so I assume that it is valid.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252




 "Pettit, Ghery"
 To
 Sent by:  Jim Hulbert 
 emc-p...@ieee.org "Flavin, John"
   
   "emc-p...@ieee.org"
 10/29/2008 08:45  
 PM cc

   Subject
   RE: Radiated Emission Measurements
   above 1GHz










You must have an early copy put out by BSI.  They made a mistake and
included Amendment 1 to CISPR 22, Edition 5.0 and withdrew it promptly when
I pointed out their error.  Limits above 1 GHz should not be included in EN
55022:2006.

Ghery S. Pettit, NCE
Convener, CISPR SC I WG3



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim Hulbert
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:09 AM
To: Flavin, John; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz

EN 55022:2006 does indeed include the limits for radiated emissions in the
range 1 GHz to 6 GHz.  Look at section 6.2.   This standard is published in
the OJ and becomes compulsory under the EMC Directive as of 1 Oct 2009.

Jim Hulbert, Group Leader
TSO Competitive & Compliance Engineering
Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT  06484
Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621)
Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352)

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Fl