Re: [PSES] Why use an MOV?
John, It appears 60936 may be withdrawn, try EN 132400. In any case, I believe filters are generally safety certified without use of MOVs, not mandatory. I have asked vendors to add these to a custom filter and to the requirements of other product standards such as EN 60950, EN 61010-1 or EN 50178; while specifying the category. IEC 60384-14 does cover surge capability of component capacitors. I also do not see a connection to surge for EMI filters except by virtue of the capacitors used. To learn about this generally takes a little digging with your supplier. I would think OV Cat II would be the minimum. Hope this helps a little. Doug Douglas E Powell http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 -Original Message- From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 22:37:24 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply-To: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: [PSES] Why use an MOV? In message 1745841055-1355694284-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-247462401 -@b15.c21.bise6.blackberry, dated Sun, 16 Dec 2012, doug...@gmail.com writes: The susceptible components in a filter are the Y and X capacitors. I am quite up to speed on that. My question applied to the filter as a whole. I didn't find any relevant test in any Part of IEC/EN 60939. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk The longer it takes to make a point, the more obtuse it proves to be. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Why use an MOV?
In message 1064331955-1355731200-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-118760780 1-@b15.c21.bise6.blackberry, dated Mon, 17 Dec 2012, doug...@gmail.com writes: It appears 60936 may be withdrawn, try EN 132400. I think you have the wrong standard, it's 60939 (multi-part), not 60936 (which is about shipborne radar), and anyway the withdrawn EN 132400 was about the capacitors, not the whole filter: BS EN 132400:1995. Harmonized system of quality assessment for electronic components. Sectional specification. Fixed capacitors for electromagnetic interference suppression and connection to the supply mains (Assessment Level D) Published Date: 15/01/1995 Status: Superseded, Withdrawn -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk The longer it takes to make a point, the more obtuse it proves to be. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Why use an MOV?
John, Sorry, typo. So now I'm not certain I understand what you are asking. Can you clarify? Doug Douglas E Powell http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 -Original Message- From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 08:13:35 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply-To: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: [PSES] Why use an MOV? In message 1064331955-1355731200-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-118760780 1-@b15.c21.bise6.blackberry, dated Mon, 17 Dec 2012, doug...@gmail.com writes: It appears 60936 may be withdrawn, try EN 132400. I think you have the wrong standard, it's 60939 (multi-part), not 60936 (which is about shipborne radar), and anyway the withdrawn EN 132400 was about the capacitors, not the whole filter: BS EN 132400:1995. Harmonized system of quality assessment for electronic components. Sectional specification. Fixed capacitors for electromagnetic interference suppression and connection to the supply mains (Assessment Level D) Published Date: 15/01/1995 Status: Superseded, Withdrawn -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk The longer it takes to make a point, the more obtuse it proves to be. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Why use an MOV?
In message 1260632493-1355749824-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-300668403 -@b15.c21.bise6.blackberry, dated Mon, 17 Dec 2012, doug...@gmail.com writes: So now I'm not certain I understand what you are asking. Can you clarify? Is there anything in the specifications of off-the-shelf EMI filters that says that they will withstand the 6 kV surge, which they have to do if there is no surge-protection upstream? I see specs about 'hi-pot', usually 2.5 kV or so. But looking at the insulators on typical filters, I would expect them to arc over at 6 kV. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk The longer it takes to make a point, the more obtuse it proves to be. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Why use an MOV?
Why use a MOV? This is a difficult subject for self and employer - both in terms of reliability and safety. Probably no other choice because most of my employer's stuff must operate in other than OV category 1 or 2. For MTBF or MTTF, there are several Arrhenius-based models where the basis is avoiding thermal runaway, and there are terms for working voltage, typically labeled as 'MCOV' in the mfr's data sheet. The concept of thermal runaway is important because the ZnO MOV is a non-linear resistor with an exponential V-I curve. The design trade-off is physical size vs energy. Small physical-sized MOVs will almost always fail short because temperature increases occur in very small areas through the disc. The other design trade-off is ambient temp vs working voltage. Internal dissipation will result in much greater dtemp/dv for a incrementally higher ambient temp. Finally, the input fuse characteristics must be considered with respect to the rating of the MOV, and consider the unit's surge testing as part of safety TRFs. Note following references that have helped me in previous years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor Ioannou, Comparative Study of Metal Oxide Varistors for Failure Mode Identification, USF Masters Thesis, Nov 2004. Birrell, Standler, 'Failures of Surge Arrestors on Low-Voltage Mains' IEEE Transactions on Power Delivery, 1993 Vol 8 No 1. Other ideas? Brian -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Richard Nute Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 11:09 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Why use an MOV? Presumably, the MOVs in question are connected line to neutral. I would expect the designer would design his primary circuit to withstand the normally-expected 1500 V transient. Why use an MOV??? Best wishes for the holiday season, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL 1699B where art thou
I complained (ok, will admit that I whined) too soon, or the squeaky wheel gets oiled. The good people at UL said this in response to my formal query: The Second Issue of the UL 1699B Outline of Investigation is currently under development, and we anticipate its publication during the First Quarter of 2013. FYI, the Principal Engineer for the subject is Mr. Robert L. Larocca, and Mr. Edward Minasian is the STP Project Manager. Brian -Original Message- From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 2:57 PM To: 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG' Subject: UL 1699B where art thou Anyone on the 1699 STP? Am attempting to determine status of UL1699B. Silence since approx May 2011, and next NEC will probably include both serial and parallel arc detect in article 690. And as typical, the assigned engineer from a well-known 'non-profit' organization will not answer any questions. thanks, Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Position Opening in OSHA's NRTL Program
OSHA is currently seeking two experienced electrical engineers to work in its Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) program. The incumbent would conduct in-depth onsite assessments of national and foreign laboratories seeking recognition as NRTLs, conduct in-depth audits of labs granted recognition as NRTLs to verify continued compliance to these requirements, work with other staff in developing policies, procedures, and sound interpretations of OSHA’s electrical safety standards based on national and international practices for the accreditation of laboratories or the conduct of assessments and audits to ensure the integrity and reliability of the NRTL Program in protecting workers and other duties as described in the position announcement. Candidates may apply at: * https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/333708600*https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/333708600or by searching www.usajobs.gov for position DE-13-OSHA-41. If you have any questions about the position or what it entails, feel free to contact me at *robinson.ke...@dol.gov* robinson.ke...@dol.gov, however, please DO NOT send resumes or other application information to this address. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Standard or practical guide to grounding electrical products which are not permanently installed
Dear Regulatory Experts, I'm searching for a standard or guideline which will provide detailed information about the internal grounding and bonding of products, and I've had limited luck in finding anything suiting my purpose. Reviewing a few CSA and UL standards hasn't been helpful. Specifically, I am interested in Class I plug and cord connected products, which require the internal grounding wire to be secured to a metal, non-current carrying enclosure. I need to know what kinds of screw/nut/washer combinations are acceptable, mainly from a North American viewpoint, but not excluding Europe.(As usual, I'm working with small industrial-type battery chargers drawing less than 12A at 120V, 6A at 240V). I'm particularly interested in requirements/acceptability of thread-cutting or -forming screws, with or without locking washers. I'm wondering about their securement performance over time. The standards I've reviewed so far seem to be very non-specific about requirements, while specifying some testing. Are there any documents out there that are more detailed? Thanks in Advance, Brian C. Brian Ceresney, CTech. Regulatory Team Lead, Delta-Q Technologies Corp. 3755 Willingdon Ave., Burnaby, BC Canada V5G 3H3 Tel: 604-566-8827 www.delta-q.comhttp://www.delta-q.com/ bceres...@delta-q.commailto:bceres...@delta-q.com Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Standard or practical guide to grounding electrical products which are not permanently installed
Do not know why bonding materials/construction would not be in the scoped safety standard. My typical refs for reliable bonding construction requirements/suggestions are: 1. scoped safety standard for the equipment and/or end-use installation. 2. CSA design manual for the scoped standard(s). 3. Section General and/or Inspection Procedures of the affected UL file. 4. CSA No. 0.4 5. NEC article 250 (mostly wiring, but other hardware discussed) There has to be 10E3 references for this stuff. Brian -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Brian Ceresney Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 3:59 PM To: 'EMC-PSTC' Subject: Standard or practical guide to grounding electrical products which are not permanently installed Dear Regulatory Experts, I'm searching for a standard or guideline which will provide detailed information about the internal grounding and bonding of products, and I've had limited luck in finding anything suiting my purpose. Reviewing a few CSA and UL standards hasn't been helpful. Specifically, I am interested in Class I plug and cord connected products, which require the internal grounding wire to be secured to a metal, non-current carrying enclosure. I need to know what kinds of screw/nut/washer combinations are acceptable, mainly from a North American viewpoint, but not excluding Europe.(As usual, I'm working with small industrial-type battery chargers drawing less than 12A at 120V, 6A at 240V). I'm particularly interested in requirements/acceptability of thread-cutting or -forming screws, with or without locking washers. I'm wondering about their securement performance over time. The standards I've reviewed so far seem to be very non-specific about requirements, while specifying some testing. Are there any documents out there that are more detailed? Thanks in Advance, Brian C. Brian Ceresney, CTech. Regulatory Team Lead, Delta-Q Technologies Corp. 3755 Willingdon Ave., Burnaby, BC Canada V5G 3H3 Tel: 604-566-8827 www.delta-q.com bceres...@delta-q.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Standard or practical guide to grounding electrical products which are not permanently installed
Thanks for your help, Brian. Unfortunately my two equipment standards are not very detailed, this product has no UL file yet, and my(out of date)copy of CSA 0.4 doesn't add much. Time to buy more standards! Could you explain the CSA design manual to me? I have never heard of a design manual before, and didn't see it on the CSA site. Is it available only for specific standards? Best Regards, Brian C. Brian Ceresney, CTech. Regulatory Team Lead, Delta-Q Technologies Corp. 3755 Willingdon Ave., Burnaby, BC Canada V5G 3H3 Tel: 604-566-8827 www.delta-q.com bceres...@delta-q.com Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. -Original Message- From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 4:31 PM To: Brian Ceresney; 'EMC-PSTC' Subject: RE: Standard or practical guide to grounding electrical products which are not permanently installed Do not know why bonding materials/construction would not be in the scoped safety standard. My typical refs for reliable bonding construction requirements/suggestions are: 1. scoped safety standard for the equipment and/or end-use installation. 2. CSA design manual for the scoped standard(s). 3. Section General and/or Inspection Procedures of the affected UL file. 4. CSA No. 0.4 5. NEC article 250 (mostly wiring, but other hardware discussed) There has to be 10E3 references for this stuff. Brian -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Brian Ceresney Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 3:59 PM To: 'EMC-PSTC' Subject: Standard or practical guide to grounding electrical products which are not permanently installed Dear Regulatory Experts, I'm searching for a standard or guideline which will provide detailed information about the internal grounding and bonding of products, and I've had limited luck in finding anything suiting my purpose. Reviewing a few CSA and UL standards hasn't been helpful. Specifically, I am interested in Class I plug and cord connected products, which require the internal grounding wire to be secured to a metal, non-current carrying enclosure. I need to know what kinds of screw/nut/washer combinations are acceptable, mainly from a North American viewpoint, but not excluding Europe.(As usual, I'm working with small industrial-type battery chargers drawing less than 12A at 120V, 6A at 240V). I'm particularly interested in requirements/acceptability of thread-cutting or -forming screws, with or without locking washers. I'm wondering about their securement performance over time. The standards I've reviewed so far seem to be very non-specific about requirements, while specifying some testing. Are there any documents out there that are more detailed? Thanks in Advance, Brian C. Brian Ceresney, CTech. Regulatory Team Lead, Delta-Q Technologies Corp. 3755 Willingdon Ave., Burnaby, BC Canada V5G 3H3 Tel: 604-566-8827 www.delta-q.com bceres...@delta-q.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
