Re: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard?
Lauren, Since you mentioned Korea (Asia), I would like to share China CCC experience. Due to a new version of harmonic standard, all existing CCC certificates with this standard must be updated before October 1, 2014. A Chinese lab engineer informed us that we didn't need a test sample as the product rated 50W (not greater than 75W). I believe the process for the lab is similar to a simple update to the test report is all that is needed as Ghery stated. Best regards, Grace Lin On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Crane, Lauren lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.comwrote: Thanks for the helpful replies so far. I should clarify in this case the regulatory context is Korea – ENs are essentially equivalent to KNs. ** ** Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor ** ** *From:* msherma...@comcast.net [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] *Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2013 3:18 PM *To:* Crane, Lauren *Cc:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard? ** ** Lauren -- A similar thread is currently running on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/groups/CISPR-22-24-compliance-update-2278131.S.269600494?view=gid=2278131type=memberitem=269600494trk=eml-anet_dig-b_nd-pst_ttle-cn Here is my comment on that thread, but I look forward to the experienced feedback from this EMC-PSTC group of experts: This is a tough one. 1. The essential requirements of ANNEX I of 2004/108/EC are stated with a reference to state of the art: Equipment shall be so designed and manufactured, having regard to the state of the art, as to ensure that:... 2. Harmonized standards are regularly updated, presumably at least in part to reflect the state of the art. 3. If you are choosing to demonstrate conformance with the essential requirements by demonstrating conformance with the applicable harmonized standards, it seems to me that you have an obligation to periodically review whether changes to the harmonized standards constitute changes to the state of the art as applied to your products... Mike -- *From: *Lauren Crane lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.com *To: *EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Sent: *Friday, August 30, 2013 3:05:28 PM *Subject: *[PSES] Retest because of supersded standard? Dear Experts, A test lab is suggesting that because EN61000-6-4:2007 will be superseded in 2014, all conforming products must be retested to the new standard, even if no changes have occurred in the product. Is this a fair claim? Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT; emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT;emcp...@radiusnorth.netGT; Mike Cantwell LT;mcantw...@ieee.orgGT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT;j.bac...@ieee.orgGT; David Heald LT;dhe...@gmail.comGT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT; emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT;emcp...@radiusnorth.netGT; Mike Cantwell LT;mcantw...@ieee.orgGT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT;j.bac...@ieee.orgGT; David Heald LT;dhe...@gmail.comGT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
[PSES] UK mains plug
Dear John, UK has a national requirement, SI 1768 1994 Plug Socket Safety Regulation that requires the standard plug must be certified by a notified body. Currently, there are three notified bodies: BSI, ASTA and Nemko approved by DTI. Does DTI have an update list of such approved notified bodies published? According to Plug and Socket Regulations Guidance documents, the notified bodies in NANDO (New Approach Notified and Designated Organisations) can certify mains plug as well. Currently, TUV Rheinland in China claims to have such authorisation. Is there any latest update in this regulation? Thanks and regards, Scott - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Product Safety Standard
Hello Group, I am really struggling with this one. Can anyone point me in the right direction for a product safety requirement on a (12, 24, or 36 VDC) trolling motor. It is utilizing a 2.4 GHz transceivers for control (key fobs and foot pedal). For product safety I think UL 1112 may apply but it may not and at a global level I am a bit confused as well, I do not see how the machinery directive would apply but it was suggested. Or should I just meet the EMC, RTTE and the General Product Safety Directive 2001/95/EC? Best Regards and Thank you, Mark Schmidt - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UK mains plug
In message ce4c0abc.1c2b9%scott...@gmail.com, dated Tue, 3 Sep 2013, Scott Xe scott...@gmail.com writes: UK has a national requirement, SI 1768 1994 Plug Socket Safety Regulation that requires the standard plug must be certified by a notified body. Currently, there are three notified bodies: BSI, ASTA and Nemko approved by DTI. Does DTI have an update list of such approved notified bodies published? It's not DTI any more, it's BIS Department of Business, Innovation and Skills. There may be a list, but it's very difficult to find such things on the web. I suggest you ask BIS directly, giving as much detail about what you want to know as possible: enquir...@bis.gsi.gov.uk According to Plug and Socket Regulations Guidance documents, the notified bodies in NANDO (New Approach Notified and Designated Organisations) can certify mains plug as well. Currently, TUV Rheinland in China claims to have such authorisation. Is there any latest update in this regulation? NANDO itself has the information you require, it seems, but I can't be sure. Google search doesn't recognize 'NANDO' but if you put the full name in, you get hits. There is a PDF User Manual that explains how to use the NANDO database to find notified bodies. Be careful to check that the notified body is notified specifically for the approval of British 13 A plugs. It might be notified for other purposes only. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Product Safety Standard
In message 119fa9545c6e264b830c4582886d119068b10...@quimby.dw.local, dated Tue, 3 Sep 2013, Mark Schmidt mark.schm...@dornerworks.com writes: Can anyone point me in the right direction for a product safety requirement on a (12, 24, or 36 VDC) trolling motor. What is a trolling motor? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Product Safety Standard
I should have been more clear. Trolling motor = Electric motor, for propulsion through water - normally mounted to the bow of a fishing/bass boat. Mark Schmidt -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 11:06 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Product Safety Standard In message 119fa9545c6e264b830c4582886d119068b10...@quimby.dw.local, dated Tue, 3 Sep 2013, Mark Schmidt mark.schm...@dornerworks.com writes: Can anyone point me in the right direction for a product safety requirement on a (12, 24, or 36 VDC) trolling motor. What is a trolling motor? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Product Safety Standard
Hello Mark, I would go to the Ul Directory and see what (or not) other trolling motors are done to domestically. Then look for a particular requirement in the EU, probably an En60335 one, that might apply. Scott On Sep 3, 2013, at 10:23 AM, Mark Schmidt mark.schm...@dornerworks.com wrote: Hello Group, I am really struggling with this one. Can anyone point me in the right direction for a product safety requirement on a (12, 24, or 36 VDC) trolling motor. It is utilizing a 2.4 GHz transceivers for control (key fobs and foot pedal). For product safety I think UL 1112 may apply but it may not and at a global level I am a bit confused as well, I do not see how the machinery directive would apply but it was suggested. Or should I just meet the EMC, RTTE and the General Product Safety Directive 2001/95/EC? Best Regards and Thank you, Mark Schmidt - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UK mains plug
In message ce4c24b6.1c2c3%scott...@gmail.com, dated Tue, 3 Sep 2013, Scott Xe scott...@gmail.com writes: I cannot find the regulation in the legislations list even in BSI. No, BSI doesn't provide documents relating to regulations. I am unsure if it is due to part of LVD Directive as the plug and socket regulation is included in the national requirements of applicable standard of LVD. Plugs and sockets are not covered by the LVD because they are covered by different *legal* (not standards) requirements (Like the British PS Regulations) in the different EU countries. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Spread Spectrum clocking and adverse WIFI effects
Hi Ken/Chas, I forwarded your QA to a consultant friend of mine who specializes in wireless and co-existance, Dr. Robert Morrow. Here's his comments. 802.11b has a bandwidth of around 22 MHz, and the slower data rates of 1 and 2 Mb/s have some spread spectrum processing gain (about 10 dB) that can cut the effect of jamming signals. The 5.5 and 11 Mb/s data rates don't have much processing gain but the receivers are usually pretty good about rejecting interference and the 802.11 network can always drop to the lower speeds if necessary. 802.11g has a bandwidth of about 17 MHz, and as long as a harmonic isn't hitting one of the four pilot frequencies they usually perform well because a few of the jammed subcarriers can be recovered via error correction. Also, 802.11g can drop to 802.11b speeds in situations of poor channel conditions. Newer 802.11n works the same way with automatic backoff to lower data rates of 802.11g and 802.11b if necessary, and it can also operate in both the 2.4 and 5 GHz bands. The very latest 802.11ac that's showing up in computers today operates in the 5 GHz band only. When the interfering signal is of a different structure than the desired signal to be analyzed, the only sure way to test performance is empirical, either over-the-air or via cables and attenuators. Hope this helps, Ken ___ Kenneth Wyatt Wyatt Technical Services LLC 56 Aspen Dr. Woodland Park, CO Phone: (719) 310-5418 / Toll Free: (877) 443-9275 Email Me! | Web Site | Blog The EMC Blog (TM World) Subscribe to Newsletter Connect with me on LinkedIn On Aug 30, 2013, at 9:27 AM, Ken Javor wrote: Just some basic observations. In order for a dithered clock to solve a regulatory problem, the frequency shift must be greater than the measurement bandwidth. In order for the dithered clock to solve an EMI problem, the frequency shift must be larger than the potential victim’s bandwidth. In an ideal world, the measurement and victim BW are the same. This is realized, for instance, in the FM BCB, but not in the television bands. So the immediate question is what is a WiFi channel BW, relative to the 1 MHz (?) BW of the CISPR measurement above 1 GHz. The WiFi BW is considerably larger than 1 MHz in order to support download speeds these days, so it is quite possible for a dithered clock to push the frequency outside the measurement BW but still remain in the WiFi channel, where it can cause mischief. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Grasso, Charles charles.gra...@echostar.com Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 14:39:15 + To: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org Conversation: Spread Spectrum clocking and adverse WIFI effects Subject: Spread Spectrum clocking and adverse WIFI effects Hello all, Spread spectrum clocking has a *wonderful* effect on radiated emissions especially DDR generated noise. My question is: Given the high degree of integration in today’s products: Does anyone have concrete experiences of degraded WiFi performance as a result of using SSC? Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications (w) 303-706-5467 (c) 303-204-2974 (t) 3032042...@vtext.com (e) charles.gra...@echostar.com (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike
Re: [PSES] UK mains plug
John, Thanks for your pointer and I will contact them. I checked the notified bodies in NANDO list and unsure if those notified bodies are for the approval of British 13 A plug. I cannot find the regulation in the legislations list even in BSI. I am unsure if it is due to part of LVD Directive as the plug and socket regulation is included in the national requirements of applicable standard of LVD. Regards, Scott On 3/9/13 11:03 PM, John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk wrote: In message ce4c0abc.1c2b9%scott...@gmail.com, dated Tue, 3 Sep 2013, Scott Xe scott...@gmail.com writes: UK has a national requirement, SI 1768 1994 Plug Socket Safety Regulation that requires the standard plug must be certified by a notified body. Currently, there are three notified bodies: BSI, ASTA and Nemko approved by DTI. Does DTI have an update list of such approved notified bodies published? It's not DTI any more, it's BIS Department of Business, Innovation and Skills. There may be a list, but it's very difficult to find such things on the web. I suggest you ask BIS directly, giving as much detail about what you want to know as possible: enquir...@bis.gsi.gov.uk According to Plug and Socket Regulations Guidance documents, the notified bodies in NANDO (New Approach Notified and Designated Organisations) can certify mains plug as well. Currently, TUV Rheinland in China claims to have such authorisation. Is there any latest update in this regulation? NANDO itself has the information you require, it seems, but I can't be sure. Google search doesn't recognize 'NANDO' but if you put the full name in, you get hits. There is a PDF User Manual that explains how to use the NANDO database to find notified bodies. Be careful to check that the notified body is notified specifically for the approval of British 13 A plugs. It might be notified for other purposes only. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard?
Testing and meeting essential requirements. – indeed an interesting combination. A man goes to a doctor and asks how he can meet his bodies directive that it receives essential nourishment without using his stomach because his stomach ‘changes’, gives him gas and gets upset too often. The doctor says, well, the body never said you had to eat in order to meet its requirement of essential nourishment. You can choose another method if you want it is just simpler to eat than to take another route. It is true that the EMC directive does not require testing. But then one does not test to the directive, one tests to show compliance to a standard which is used to show a device meets the essential requirements of the directive. So, because a mfg used standards to show they meet essential requirements, when those standards that are not mandatory change, does one need to retest? There are two issues really, the first is how a party responsible shows they continue to meet the essential requirements of the directive. Second, if the path used to show meeting the essential requirements has changed (i.e. use of a standard), what are the requirements to show continued compliance to those changes? Remember, it is no longer simply the essential requirements of the directive that needs to be met, but showing how the path chosen is still sufficient to meet those essential requriements. The first is always a requirement and meeting essential requirements is not optional. The second, how that is done, is optional and can and does change. While testing is not required to be used to show meeting essential requirements of the directive, if the party responsible chose and is still using the standards methods to show how they meet the essential requirements, then it is the standard that dictates if testing is or is not (dare I use the word) required. If you do not want to test, then don’t use a test standard. But the options are far more complicated. Generally one of the statements in any standard is something akin to “THE EQUIPMENT SHALL BE TESTED…….” So, if the party responsible is going to continue to use the standards route to show how their device meets the directive, then when a standard changes they must do as the standard says and test in order show how the results in accordance with the most recent standards still meets the essential requirements. If nothing in the standard changed the way a previous test was or was not applied, then no new testing would be required. If however the standard did change in an area that affected test or test limits, then in order to still show how it meets the essential requirements of the directive, retesting would be required. Again, remember that it is not a requirement of the directive, but it is a requirement of the path chosen to use to meet the essential requirements of that directive; and, if you do not test, then you are no longer using the standard as the method to show meeting essential requirements and you must choose another path in order to do that. More simply put, if the party responsible wishes to continue to use a standard to show meeting essential requirements, then when testing or retesting is required, that is what they must do. If they no longer wish to test to a standard to show meeting the directive requirements, they will still be required to show, aside from testing, how the device continues to meet the essential requirements. thanks Dennis Ward Senior Certification Engineer PCTEST This communication and its attachments contain information from PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, Inc., and is intended for the exclusive use of the recipient (s) named above. It may contain information that is confidential and/or legally privileged. Any unauthorized use that may compromise that confidentiality via distribution or disclosure is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately if you receive this communication in error, and delete it from your computer system. Usage of PCTEST email addresses for non-business related activities is strictly prohibited. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect. Thank you. From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen [mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl] Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 4:31 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard? John Wrote: The EMC Directive doesn't demand ANY testing. Maybe, but it demands EVIDENCE of compliance. Annex IV - 1 Two Definitons of Evidence Law: The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law. Law: information drawn from personal testimony, a document, or a material object, used to establish facts in a legal investigation or admissible as testimony in a law court. The rest of your email witnesses daily practices in factories, but
Re: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard?
In message 003f01cea8c7$d1886be0$749943a0$@pctestlab.com, dated Tue, 3 Sep 2013, Dward dw...@pctestlab.com writes: If nothing in the standard changed the way a previous test was or was not applied, then no new testing would be required. If however the standard did change in an area that affected test or test limits, then in order to still show how it meets the essential requirements of the directive, retesting would be required. In all that disingenuous verbiage, the above its the only factual information. But even that does not cover the case where a requirement in the standard doesn't apply to a product, because it doesn't have the port or other feature that the requirement refers to. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Standard for testing of high voltage penetrators
You can check CENELEC’s TC 20 web site. Regards, Peter Tarver *From:* Niels Hougaard [mailto:n...@bolls.dk] *Sent:* Thursday, August 29, 2013 07:23 *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* [PSES] Standard for testing of high voltage penetrators Dear list members, High voltage penetrators rated 1,1kVAC are tested according to EN 50393. Does anyone know the similar standard for a penetrator rated 1,5 kVDC? Regards, Niels Niels Hougaard Bolls ApS Ved Gadekæret 11F DK-3660 Stenløse Denmark T: +45 48 18 35 66 F: +45 48 18 35 30 n...@bolls.dk www.bolls.dk - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Norwegian RF Study
There’s also an article much shorter than 200 pages at http://www.fhi.no/eway/default.aspx?pid=240trg=Content_6765Main_6664=6894:0:25,7553:1:0:0:::0:0MainContent_6894=6765:0:25,7558:1:0:0:::0:0Content_6765=6729:100854:25,7558:1:6770:2:::0:0 This article also indicates there’s little value in further research. Regards, Peter Tarver *From:* Ed Price [mailto:edpr...@cox.net] *Sent:* Thursday, August 29, 2013 05:11 *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* [PSES] Norwegian RF Study *The Norwegian Institute of Public Health released a study of electromagnetic exposure to humans earlier this year. You can get a PDF for free by going to* * * *http://www.fhi.no* * * *then click on the little British flag in the top right corner to get English (well, unless you like to read Norwegian). Then just type “electromagnetic” into the search box and you should be offered a download for “Low-level radiofrequency electromagnetic fields – an assessment of health risks and evaluation of regulatory practice. NIPH report 2012:3”* * * *The executive summary is:* * * *The Committee has assessed the health hazards from low-level electromagnetic fields generated by radio transmitters. These electromagnetic fields are found around mobile phones, wireless phones and networks, mobile phone base stations, broadcasting transmitters and other communications equipment. The Committee has evaluated the power of the fields, whether they pose a health risk, the current regulatory practice, and whether the threshold limit values for exposure are observed.* *The health authorities have determined that the threshold limit values for electromagnetic fields around transmitters in mobile phones and other equipment should be the same as those recommended by the International Commission on Non-ionising Radiation Protection (ICNIRP). The threshold limit values are based on fields above a certain power that can cause harmful heating of tissue. The ICNIRP has not observed other adverse health effects under this level. * *The threshold limit values for these fields are 50 times below the level that causes heating of human tissue or stimulation of nerve cells. Due to increasing public concerns, the government requested the appointment of an Expert Committee to assess whether such low-level electromagnetic fields could cause health effects. **Regarding equipment that provides the lowest exposure, such as base stations, wireless networks, broadcasting transmitters and proximity to other mobile phones, the experts believe that the risk assessment has negligible uncertainty. In other words, it is reasonably certain that such equipment is not associated with health risks. * *The report is approximately 200 pages long and includes Norwegian and English summaries.* * * *Ed Price **WB6WSN **Chula Vista, CA USA*** - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] California Prop 65
Californians ? ___ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering From: Ed Price edpr...@cox.net To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, Date: 07/11/2013 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] California Prop 65 Proposition 65 requires businesses to notify Californians about significant amounts of chemicals in the products they purchase, in their homes or workplaces, or that are released into the environment. By providing this information, Proposition 65 enables Californians to make informed decisions about protecting themselves from exposure to these chemicals. This is why we are flooded with silly signs which warn about known carcinogens in this building, in this location, associated with this product, etc Every gas station, paint store, home improvement center, auto parts store, garden center, machine shop, welding shop have these signs. The signs adorn construction sites and landfills, and are so prevalent that they fade into the background noise and have become meaningless. About the only time you notice it is when you go somewhere and you happen to notice that they DON'T have a sign. The natural assumption then is that the company has a strict compliance officer, and he couldn't find a non-toxic source for his sign order. California is, in many ways, a very advanced nanny state. BTW (and I couldn't find this before I tired of searching), I will bet that every California State entity is exempt from compliance with this regulation. Seriously, look at the list of 800 or so things on the California list. Then parse the meaning of significant amount when you can detect parts per billion of everything; you will find the exercise quite disheartening. OTOH, just put up the signs or warning stickers, and almost nobody will notice them. Ed Price WB6WSN Chula Vista, CA USA -Original Message- From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:04 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] California Prop 65 Google/Bing/Yahoo are your friend. They only want your brain. http://oehha.ca.gov/prop65/background/p65plain.html Brian -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Moshe Henig Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 5:19 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; emc-pstc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org Subject: California Prop 65 Hello team, I am looking for California Prop 65 requirements and on which equipment or when it is applied. Can you please advise Thanks Moshe - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
Re: [PSES] California Prop 65
no... *The* Californians: http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-californians/n13474/ On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 2:34 PM, ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.comwrote: Californians ? ___ * Ralph McDiarmid* | * Schneider Electric ** | Solar Business* | * CANADA* | *Regulatory Compliance Engineering* From: Ed Price edpr...@cox.net To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, Date: 07/11/2013 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] California Prop 65 -- Proposition 65 requires businesses to notify Californians about significant amounts of chemicals in the products they purchase, in their homes or workplaces, or that are released into the environment. By providing this information, Proposition 65 enables Californians to make informed decisions about protecting themselves from exposure to these chemicals. This is why we are flooded with silly signs which warn about known carcinogens in this building, in this location, associated with this product, etc Every gas station, paint store, home improvement center, auto parts store, garden center, machine shop, welding shop have these signs. The signs adorn construction sites and landfills, and are so prevalent that they fade into the background noise and have become meaningless. About the only time you notice it is when you go somewhere and you happen to notice that they DON'T have a sign. The natural assumption then is that the company has a strict compliance officer, and he couldn't find a non-toxic source for his sign order. California is, in many ways, a very advanced nanny state. BTW (and I couldn't find this before I tired of searching), I will bet that every California State entity is exempt from compliance with this regulation. Seriously, look at the list of 800 or so things on the California list. Then parse the meaning of significant amount when you can detect parts per billion of everything; you will find the exercise quite disheartening. OTOH, just put up the signs or warning stickers, and almost nobody will notice them. Ed Price WB6WSN Chula Vista, CA USA -Original Message- From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.comoconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:04 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] California Prop 65 Google/Bing/Yahoo are your friend. They only want your brain. http://oehha.ca.gov/prop65/background/p65plain.html Brian -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Moshe Henig Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 5:19 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; emc-pstc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org Subject: California Prop 65 Hello team, I am looking for California Prop 65 requirements and on which equipment or when it is applied. Can you please advise Thanks Moshe - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
