Re: [PSES] 答复: [PSES] question on clause 6.3 and 1.4.11 of IEC60950-1
From: Boštjan Glavič [mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si] Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 21:21 To summarize, limit of 1.3A is applicable for CO equipment, and limit 15VA for subscriber units (analogue or ISDN phones, modems etc). This is simply not correct. Please see my post earlier in this thread. Regards, Peter Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question - emission measurements below 150kHz
Dear EMC-PSTC forum members, Given a need to measure conducted emissions from 150kHz down to 9kHz, would it be better to: 1. characterise 50ohm LISN for insertion loss down to 9kHz 2. use a current clamp rated for that frequency and use transfer impedance to determine dB(uV) I can see that impedance of 50ohm/50uH LISN could be an issue at frequencies 100kHz approx. thanks, ___ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question - emission measurements below 150kHz
One cannot use the transfer impedance of a current probe to convert a current into a potential to be compared to a dBuV limit, because the potential then depends on which current probe is in use, irrespective of how much current flows, and into what impedance. Either a limit based on current is verified using a current probe, in which case the transfer impedance is immaterial, except to reduce the data, or a LISN with impedance specified over the frequency range of the requirement is employed. Many years ago, MIL-STD-461 used the same LISN as for CISPR measurements, and the LISN was (is) indeed characterized down to 10 kHz. My understanding is that CISPR now use a different LISN, and that would need to be separately characterized. Finally, keep in mind that VDE limits did go down to 9 kHz, and they added a 250 uH ³add-on² LISN to stabilize the impedance of the CISPR LISN at those lower frequencies. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: McDiarmid, Ralph ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com Reply-To: ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 13:52:00 -0700 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] question - emission measurements below 150kHz Dear EMC-PSTC forum members, Given a need to measure conducted emissions from 150kHz down to 9kHz, would it be better to: 1. characterise 50ohm LISN for insertion loss down to 9kHz 2. use a current clamp rated for that frequency and use transfer impedance to determine dB(uV) I can see that impedance of 50ohm/50uH LISN could be an issue at frequencies 100kHz approx. thanks, ___ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question on clause 6.3 and 1.4.11 of IEC60950-1
From: Zhangguoqing (A) Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 17:57 If a transmit equipment can deliver 1.3A current into telecommunication network, then in the corresponding receive equipment (terminals), 1.3A current is available, do you think so? The 1.3 A limitation is under worst-case loading conditions, and is not the normal operating current. For any loading condition up to and including short-circuit, the output current available from the source cannot exceed 1.3 A. This concept is not unlike the LPS current limits in §2.5 in that the intent is to not create a risk of fire in certain common premises wiring and connection devices. My question is why the standard states the transmit equipment can deliver 1.3A (max.), but at the same time it states the power available from a TELECOMMUNICATION NETWORK is limited to 15 VA? The 15 VA assumption in §1.4.11 is assumed by definition. It is the assumed power available from an unknown/generic telecommunications network, which may come from a PBX, a central office, a key system or other equipment, which the equipment under evaluation has no specific knowledge of. Because this is assumed by definition it is not a requirement that applies to equipment outputs in IEC 60950-1. These requirements are contained elsewhere in the standard. If you connect a terminal device to a telecommunications network, the anticipated power available from the telecommunications network is 15 VA. By defining this power limitation, for the purposes of this standard, doubt about what the connection is like is ameliorated. For example, if I were to connect a POTS telephone or other network (nonPoE) device to a telecommunications network, the POTS device: • does not need to comply with §4.6.4.3 • does not need a fire enclosure for the connectors, per §4.7.2.2, 7th dashed paragraph • does not need a fire enclosure for materials rated HB75 or HB40 less flammable (under specified conditions), per §4.7.2.2, 9th dashed paragraph, 2nd dotted subparagraph • use the connector material exemption in §4.7.3.3, 3rd paragraph, 5th dashed subparagraph • etc. The same exceptions/exemptions can apply to those portions of a fax machine, computer, answering machine and the like, where there are no extenuating circumstances caused by other circuits/components in the vicinity of the TNV circuit. Regards, Peter Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question - emission measurements below 150kHz
In message OFD7811909.ED5ACDC0-ON88257BE8.0071ED63-88257BE8.00729F29@US.Schneider-E lectric.com, dated Mon, 16 Sep 2013, McDiarmid, Ralph ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com writes: Given a need to measure conducted emissions from 150kHz down to 9kHz, would it be better to: 1. characterise 50ohm LISN for insertion loss down to 9kHz 2. use a current clamp rated for that frequency and use transfer impedance to determine dB(uV) I can see that impedance of 50ohm/50uH LISN could be an issue at frequencies 100kHz approx. There is a CISPR standard LISN for 9 kHz to 150 kHz, specified in 4.2 of CISPR 16-1-2, and Annex A: 4.2 50 ohm/50 μH + 5 ohm artificial mains V-network (for use in the frequency range 9 kHz to 150 kHz) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question - emission measurements below 150kHz
Whenever you use an LISN, you should always characterize the port loss. At the lowest frequency end of your measurement range, it will not be surprising to find a several dB correction factor is needed to be added to your data to compensate for response roll-off. And if you use two similar LISN's, characterize each one for its unique port loss curve. As others have posted, you can't interchangeably use either a current probe or an LISN. (Remember that the LISN imposes a new impedance in series with the powerline, while the current probe is relatively non-intrusive.) Look back to the compliance document to tell you which method to use. Ed Price WB6WSN Chula Vista, CA USA From: McDiarmid, Ralph [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 1:52 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] question - emission measurements below 150kHz Dear EMC-PSTC forum members, Given a need to measure conducted emissions from 150kHz down to 9kHz, would it be better to: 1. characterise 50ohm LISN for insertion loss down to 9kHz 2. use a current clamp rated for that frequency and use transfer impedance to determine dB(uV) I can see that impedance of 50ohm/50uH LISN could be an issue at frequencies 100kHz approx. thanks, ___ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question - emission measurements below 150kHz
Years ago we had to measure conducted emissions down to 9 kHz for Germany. Regular 50 Ohm AMN with an extra 250 uH inductor on the mains side. Ghery S. Pettit From: McDiarmid, Ralph [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 1:52 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] question - emission measurements below 150kHz Dear EMC-PSTC forum members, Given a need to measure conducted emissions from 150kHz down to 9kHz, would it be better to: 1. characterise 50ohm LISN for insertion loss down to 9kHz 2. use a current clamp rated for that frequency and use transfer impedance to determine dB(uV) I can see that impedance of 50ohm/50uH LISN could be an issue at frequencies 100kHz approx. thanks, ___ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] 答复: [PSES] question on clause 6.3 and 1.4.11 of IEC60950-1
Dear Peter, Thanks for your reply. For this topic, my opinion is: - - if it is declared and installed for power transmission, the power transmit / receive equipment will be installed by skilled person, and be installed in pairs. clause 6.3 should be the requirement for power transmit equipment, but 15VA should not be the requirement for power transmit equipment. so, the power distributed to and available from the TELECOMMUNICATION NETWORK will be larger than 15 VA. - if it is not declared and installed for power transmission, the power available from a TELECOMMUNICATION NETWORK is considered to be limited to 15 VA, and so the equipment connected to the TELECOMMUNICATION NETWORK ? does not need to comply with §4.6.4.3 ? does not need a fire enclosure for the connectors, per §4.7.2.2, 7th dashed paragraph ? does not need a fire enclosure for materials rated HB75 or HB40 less flammable (under specified conditions), per §4.7.2.2, 9th dashed paragraph, 2nd dotted subparagraph ? use the connector material exemption in §4.7.3.3, 3rd paragraph, 5th dashed subparagraph ? etc. - But, in some ETSI standards, 15VA is a limit for power transmission equipment. The reason for this limit is interpreted as according to EN 60950-1 in those standards! For example, this sentence is extracted from clause 4.3 of ETSI TR 102 614 V1.1.1 (2010-06): 15 W is the limit according to EN 60950-1 [i.9] for the power on a telecommunication network and the A4 interface is be designed in order to limit the output current to a value that does not cause damage to the telecommunication wiring system due to overheating, under any load condition as required by the same EN 60950-1 [i.9]. The S/Pfilter should be dimensioned for the maximum current of 250 mA at 60 V. so, I am confused with this sentence. Zhang Guoqing Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. Bantian, Longgang District,Shenzhen 518129, P.R.China Tel: +86-13686493636 Email: zhangguoq...@huawei.com http://www.huawei.com -邮件原件- 发件人: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] 发送时间: 2013年9月17日 4:58 收件人: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 主题: Re: [PSES] question on clause 6.3 and 1.4.11 of IEC60950-1 From: Zhangguoqing (A) Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 17:57 If a transmit equipment can deliver 1.3A current into telecommunication network, then in the corresponding receive equipment (terminals), 1.3A current is available, do you think so? The 1.3 A limitation is under worst-case loading conditions, and is not the normal operating current. For any loading condition up to and including short-circuit, the output current available from the source cannot exceed 1.3 A. This concept is not unlike the LPS current limits in §2.5 in that the intent is to not create a risk of fire in certain common premises wiring and connection devices. My question is why the standard states the transmit equipment can deliver 1.3A (max.), but at the same time it states the power available from a TELECOMMUNICATION NETWORK is limited to 15 VA? The 15 VA assumption in §1.4.11 is assumed by definition. It is the assumed power available from an unknown/generic telecommunications network, which may come from a PBX, a central office, a key system or other equipment, which the equipment under evaluation has no specific knowledge of. Because this is assumed by definition it is not a requirement that applies to equipment outputs in IEC 60950-1. These requirements are contained elsewhere in the standard. If you connect a terminal device to a telecommunications network, the anticipated power available from the telecommunications network is 15 VA. By defining this power limitation, for the purposes of this standard, doubt about what the connection is like is ameliorated. For example, if I were to connect a POTS telephone or other network (nonPoE) device to a telecommunications network, the POTS device: ? does not need to comply with §4.6.4.3 ? does not need a fire enclosure for the connectors, per §4.7.2.2, 7th dashed paragraph ? does not need a fire enclosure for materials rated HB75 or HB40 less flammable (under specified conditions), per §4.7.2.2, 9th dashed paragraph, 2nd dotted
