Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

[Richard Nute]

 

 

Hi Mike:

 

The standards require a “disconnect device.”  Many manufacturers of 
cord-connected products define the plug as the disconnect device, which then 
allows a (functional, not a safeguard) single-pole mains switch.  

 

Also, many products do not have a physical mains switch such as computers and 
TVs; the only means for disconnection is the mains plug.  

 

Some European products do have a separate all-pole mains switch as well as an 
“on-off” switch.

 

The safety issue is that of servicing the product where circuits could be live. 
 An all-pole mains switch renders all circuits downstream from the switch as 
dead (safe) and can be serviced while the product is plugged in.  (Many 
standards require minimum spacings across the open contacts of the disconnect 
switch.)

 

Rich

 

 

From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 8:17 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.

 

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:

--safety issue involved

--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.

 

Mike Sherman

Graco Inc.


-

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Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

The general safety requirement for equipment is to be able to be `disconnected” 
; a term for having no hazardous voltage inside. 
A disconnect device is any system within reach of the user that allows to 
disconnect the apparatus form all live voltage. 
That can be double pole switch, but also a  “double pole” plug. Note the remark 
“within reach of user”; it limits the length of the mains wire to 1m50 approx. 
(though not specified in any standard).
Permanently connected equipment requires a disconnect switch (double pole) or a 
mains (wall) connection with an incorporated double pole switch in close 
proximity and suitable warnings. 

Current safety standards address this topic in a non-consistent way, which is a 
shame, as it is the first topic that comes to mind when thinking of protection 
against electric shock.


I personally think that a double pole on/off switch is much more clear, 
definite (does what is suggests)  and thus safer than a single pole.

And the French Schuko with the third (ground) plug cannot be reversed which is 
a real problem with right angled plugs, as in France sockets are placed close 
to ground.


This is clearly a topic that should   be addressed in the mandatory risk 
analysis within the low voltage directive, in addition to  blindly applying the 
standards clauses.

Gert Gremmen
Regards,

Ing.  Gert Gremmen, BSc
 

 
g.grem...@cetest.nl
www.cetest.nl

Kiotoweg 363
3047 BG Rotterdam
T 31(0)104152426
F 31(0)104154953
 
 Before printing, think about the environment.




Van: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Verzonden: zaterdag 28 januari 2017 18:07
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

Hello Mike,

Single-pole switches are acceptable and typical on plug connected single-phase 
equipment and sometimes on two-phase equipment. IEC 60950-1 has the somewhat 
cryptic marking “Double Pole/Neutral Fusing” as indication to service personnel 
that there may still be live voltage in the equipment even if the switch is 
off. The symbol is even more cryptic to the average person, but the warning is 
specified. The intention for plug connected equipment is that the plug serve as 
the disconnect. Service personnel are to unplug the equipment for servicing to 
remove all power. You may even have equipment that is rated 208/240 V. In 
Europe, it would be plugged into line and neutral whereas in North America, it 
would be plugged into two phases of either a split-phase 120/240 system or two 
phases of a 120/208 three-phase system. In North America, the switch would 
never remove voltage from within the equipment but would interrupt current. 
This is still generally acceptable for plug-connecte!
 d equipment.

Field-wired/permanently connected equipment would require a main disconnect 
that opens all phases. The installer should be aware of the polarity of the 
system and the installer should not reverse phase and neutral during wiring. In 
North America, this allows an equipment disconnect that opens the phases 
without opening neutral. As such, even with field-wired equipment, it is 
permissible to have neutral bypass the main disconnect.

It has been a while since I had to delve deeply into the electrical codes, so I 
may be a little off on the field-wired requirements. I encourage any of our 
esteemed contributors to correct my errors.

Best regards,
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 8:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

ALL European 2-pin 6 A plugs are reversible, and 3-contact plugs used on the 
Continent are reversible (there are two kinds, one with 2 power pins and 
side-contact for earth (called 'Schuko')  and one with a third pin for earth).

The standards you cite are written so that the product is safe, whichever way 
round the plug is inserted. You do not need a double-pole switch; in fact that 
can be a disadvantage, as it brings the two power conductors close together in 
an assembly with mechanical movement. A short-circuit at some stage in the life 
of the device is not improbable. Also, the insulation can fail, usually with 
smoke and small-scale flame, accompanied by a loud noise.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:17 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not 

Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

[Ted Eckert]

Hello Mike,

Single-pole switches are acceptable and typical on plug connected single-phase 
equipment and sometimes on two-phase equipment. IEC 60950-1 has the somewhat 
cryptic marking “Double Pole/Neutral Fusing” as indication to service personnel 
that there may still be live voltage in the equipment even if the switch is 
off. The symbol is even more cryptic to the average person, but the warning is 
specified. The intention for plug connected equipment is that the plug serve as 
the disconnect. Service personnel are to unplug the equipment for servicing to 
remove all power. You may even have equipment that is rated 208/240 V. In 
Europe, it would be plugged into line and neutral whereas in North America, it 
would be plugged into two phases of either a split-phase 120/240 system or two 
phases of a 120/208 three-phase system. In North America, the switch would 
never remove voltage from within the equipment but would interrupt current. 
This is still generally acceptable for plug-connected equipment.

Field-wired/permanently connected equipment would require a main disconnect 
that opens all phases. The installer should be aware of the polarity of the 
system and the installer should not reverse phase and neutral during wiring. In 
North America, this allows an equipment disconnect that opens the phases 
without opening neutral. As such, even with field-wired equipment, it is 
permissible to have neutral bypass the main disconnect.

It has been a while since I had to delve deeply into the electrical codes, so I 
may be a little off on the field-wired requirements. I encourage any of our 
esteemed contributors to correct my errors.

Best regards,
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 8:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

ALL European 2-pin 6 A plugs are reversible, and 3-contact plugs used on the 
Continent are reversible (there are two kinds, one with 2 power pins and 
side-contact for earth (called 'Schuko')  and one with a third pin for earth).

The standards you cite are written so that the product is safe, whichever way 
round the plug is inserted. You do not need a double-pole switch; in fact that 
can be a disadvantage, as it brings the two power conductors close together in 
an assembly with mechanical movement. A short-circuit at some stage in the life 
of the device is not improbable. Also, the insulation can fail, usually with 
smoke and small-scale flame, accompanied by a loud noise.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:17 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:
--safety issue involved
--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.

Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas >
Mike Cantwell >

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher >
David Heald >
-


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>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

[John Woodgate]

Those, too. I didn't say that the DP switch is a safety issue, it's a 
reliability or durability issue. 
 
When IEC/EN 60065 required DP switches on TVs, I pointed out the implications 
of a short-circuit, and proposed that the product's fuse be connected upstream 
of the switch. Although I was 'Head of Audio', not TV, that was adopted, with a 
label 'LIVE FUSE'.
 
With regard to the stored energy in L-N and L-E capacitors, the maximum amount 
is limited in safety standards, not necessarily directly in joules.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products
 
FWIW, the same applies to the 10/16A 2-pin plugs, most of which also reversible.
 
However, there are some national exceptions, notably in Denmark, Switzerland & 
Italy which have some unique plug/socket combinations of their own – some of 
those are reversible and some are not.
 
Not sure I agree with there being an inherent safety issue in fitting d/p 
switches to appliances for the reason JW mentions – but there is, or at least 
used sometimes to be, another and rather odd one related to EMC filters = if 
these don’t have L-N bleeder resistors and are fitted between the switch and 
the plug there can be stored energy in the caps after the plug is removed from 
the socket with the switch set to OFF (“O”)! Not enough to give you more than a 
mild electric shock, but still enough to make you “jump” and let go of  the 
appliance – not a good idea if it is somewhat heavy and then falls on your foot 
:D (not a myth – it HAS happened, and with painful consequences!)
 
Same thing can happen if the mains cord set is removable and you then happen to 
touch the pins of the male appliance connector on the appliance!
 
John E Allen 
W. London, UK
 
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 28 January 2017 16:32
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products
 
ALL European 2-pin 6 A plugs are reversible, and 3-contact plugs used on the 
Continent are reversible (there are two kinds, one with 2 power pins and 
side-contact for earth (called 'Schuko')  and one with a third pin for earth).
 
The standards you cite are written so that the product is safe, whichever way 
round the plug is inserted. You do not need a double-pole switch; in fact that 
can be a disadvantage, as it brings the two power conductors close together in 
an assembly with mechanical movement. A short-circuit at some stage in the life 
of the device is not improbable. Also, the insulation can fail, usually with 
smoke and small-scale flame, accompanied by a loud noise.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:17 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products
 
Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.
 
Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:
--safety issue involved
--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.
 
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
 >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas  >
Mike Cantwell  > 
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  >
David Heald  > 
-

Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

[John Allen]

FWIW, the same applies to the 10/16A 2-pin plugs, most of which also reversible.

 

However, there are some national exceptions, notably in Denmark, Switzerland & 
Italy which have some unique plug/socket combinations of their own – some of 
those are reversible and some are not.

 

Not sure I agree with there being an inherent safety issue in fitting d/p 
switches to appliances for the reason JW mentions – but there is, or at least 
used sometimes to be, another and rather odd one related to EMC filters = if 
these don’t have L-N bleeder resistors and are fitted between the switch and 
the plug there can be stored energy in the caps after the plug is removed from 
the socket with the switch set to OFF (“O”)! Not enough to give you more than a 
mild electric shock, but still enough to make you “jump” and let go of  the 
appliance – not a good idea if it is somewhat heavy and then falls on your foot 
:D (not a myth – it HAS happened, and with painful consequences!)

 

Same thing can happen if the mains cord set is removable and you then happen to 
touch the pins of the male appliance connector on the appliance!

 

John E Allen 

W. London, UK

 

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 28 January 2017 16:32
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

ALL European 2-pin 6 A plugs are reversible, and 3-contact plugs used on the 
Continent are reversible (there are two kinds, one with 2 power pins and 
side-contact for earth (called 'Schuko')  and one with a third pin for earth).

 

The standards you cite are written so that the product is safe, whichever way 
round the plug is inserted. You do not need a double-pole switch; in fact that 
can be a disadvantage, as it brings the two power conductors close together in 
an assembly with mechanical movement. A short-circuit at some stage in the life 
of the device is not improbable. Also, the insulation can fail, usually with 
smoke and small-scale flame, accompanied by a loud noise.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only

  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England

 

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

 

From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:17 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.

 

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:

--safety issue involved

--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.

 

Mike Sherman

Graco Inc.

-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell  

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 
David Heald  

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Scott Douglas 
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 

Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

[John Woodgate]

ALL European 2-pin 6 A plugs are reversible, and 3-contact plugs used on the 
Continent are reversible (there are two kinds, one with 2 power pins and 
side-contact for earth (called 'Schuko')  and one with a third pin for earth).
 
The standards you cite are written so that the product is safe, whichever way 
round the plug is inserted. You do not need a double-pole switch; in fact that 
can be a disadvantage, as it brings the two power conductors close together in 
an assembly with mechanical movement. A short-circuit at some stage in the life 
of the device is not improbable. Also, the insulation can fail, usually with 
smoke and small-scale flame, accompanied by a loud noise.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:17 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products
 
Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.
 
Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:
--safety issue involved
--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.
 
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
 >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell  > 
For policy questions, send mail to:
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

[Mike Sherman ----- Original Message -----]

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1. 

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on: 
--safety issue involved 
--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches. 

Mike Sherman 
Graco Inc. 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] EMC in Malaysia

[Grace Lin]

Dear Members,

Does Malaysia mandate EMC requirements?  If yes, is there any official
document available?

A quick Google search found "At present, for electromagnetic compatibility,
there are not mandatory requirements in Malaysia." (
http://www.agc-cert.com/en/cert.php?cid=123=102).  I don't know how
reliable this source is.

Thank you very much for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.

Best regards,
Grace Lin

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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