Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

[Stultz, Mark]

Hi Larry,

I agree with you completely...I think the lab didn't see that peak going over 
the limit line and therefore didn't QP.  We only noticed now that they have 
sent the report several weeks later.  They're arguing that there is no need to 
retest.

Thanks,
Mark


From: Larry K. Stillings 
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 3:46 PM
To: Stultz, Mark ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

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Mark,

If the peak is above the limit (which most standards allow up to 20 dB), then 
wouldn't you also need to know the quasi-peak of all the signals above the 
limit so you could compare them to the limit? The limit is in QP not peak.

I guess failing is failing, but you really wouldn't know by how much.

Is it really that much more work to take a QP, or maybe the automation software 
doesn't support that? We're old school and still take the data manually and I 
have the guys always take both (peak and quasi-peak).

Larry K. Stillings
Compliance Worldwide, Inc.
Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World!
FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety
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From: Stultz, Mark
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2024 3:33 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

Hello PSES brain trust,
When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be 
quasi-peaked?
CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:
"Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in 
logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the 
six highest disturbances shall be recorded."

We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, 
even if that is more than six points.
I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of 
how many peak measurements are above the limit.
Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark


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[PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

[Stultz, Mark]

Hello PSES brain trust,
When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be 
quasi-peaked?
CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:
"Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in 
logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the 
six highest disturbances shall be recorded."

We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, 
even if that is more than six points.
I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of 
how many peak measurements are above the limit.
Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark

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Re: [PSES] High Touch Current in Industrial Machinery

[Stultz, Mark]

Hi Brian,
Since this is machinery, typically IEC 60204-1 would be applied.  Check out 
clause 8.2.6 Additional requirements for electrical equipment having earth 
leakage currents higher than 10 mA.

Best regards,

Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | AUTOBAG(r) brand Equipment | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2024 4:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] High Touch Current in Industrial Machinery

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I am working on an Industrial Machine with a 3-phase 5hp motor driven by a VFD. 
To pass the EMC conducted emissions requirements, we had to add a RF Line 
Filter that is recommended by the VFD manufacturer.  This filter has large 
Y-Caps. I know these currents theoretically cancel out in a balanced system, 
but when performing the traditional Touch Current test according to IEC 60990 
6.2.2.2, Fault Condition No. 1 (open Protective Conductor) we measure a current 
about 50mA.

However, the standard says that "this subclause do not apply to reliably 
earthed equipment. . . .". This Industrial Machine is either permanently wired 
or it can use an industrial grade plug and socket, so this fault test would not 
apply.

So even though the measured current is high if we perform this fault test, 
because the machine is well grounded I do not have to do anything?

In contrast, the IEC 62368 would require a warning label, warning in the 
manual, and a secondary PE terminal.

I have read comments online such as, "in the industrial environment, they don't 
give a hoot about leakage current." Is this true?

On the other hand, an industrial machine could be the size of a building and 
have dozens of VFD driven motors and line filters creating a huge amounts of 
currents in an unbalance environment. So in my case, do I have any concerns 
other than to insure the machine is well bonded to PE during installation? But 
isn't this a normal installation consideration?

Thanks to all.
The Other Brian


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Re: [PSES] Hazard warning labels on panel doors where COTS UPS installed?

[Stultz, Mark]

Wouldn't this fall under the requirement from 60204-1 clause 5.3.5 for Excepted 
Circuits?
"Permanent warning label(s) shall be appropriately placed in proximity to the 
operating means of the supply disconnecting device to draw attention to the 
hazard"

Best regards,

Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | AUTOBAG(r) brand Equipment | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Doug Nix 
Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2023 5:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Hazard warning labels on panel doors where COTS UPS installed?


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Colleagues,

I have a client who has installed a COTS UPS in an industrial control panel. 
The UPS is being used to keep the HMI alive in a power outage or if the 
disconnecting device is switched off.

I have scoured the resources that I have, and I can find nothing that requires 
a label on the outside of the panel to indicate that there is a UPS inside. EN 
60204-1:2018 does not address this. I have a copy of EN IEC 62040-1, and it 
does not require a hazard warning label anywhere.

Any guidance you might offer is appreciated.

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org
+1 (519) 729-5704



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Re: [PSES] How to Measure Surface Conductivity?

[Stultz, Mark]

Hi Brian,
You may want to consider repeating test #3 after environmental conditioning.  
The true test of a plating is corrosion resistance over time.

Best of luck,

Mark Stultz | CMSE | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Tuesday, 11 April, 2023 3:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] How to Measure Surface Conductivity?


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I have been given two samples of metal plates; one plated in our current 
material and the other with a new plating material we want to switch to in 
production.  I have been tasked to compare the electrical surface conductivity.

What is the best way to do this?  How is this done in the industry?

I have tried the following methods;
1. DMM (Ohm Meter) = inconclusive results
2. Used 5 volts from a current limited power supply and measured the current = 
inconclusive results
3. Used our Ground Bond Tester set to 60 amps. One plate measured 3-4mΩ, the 
other 1-3mΩ

I measured 1 inch apart and from corner to corner. Test #3 above is the only 
test that showed any difference.

BTW, I use 3/4" squares of soft braid material between the probes and surface. 
The probes are zeroed out between tests.

So far, I can conclude that the new material is as good as, or slightly better 
than our current production plating material.

What more can I do, within reason?

Thanks to all.
The Other Brian
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Re: [PSES] Link to secondary legislation draft RE: [PSES] SI amendment providing UKCA label deadline extension.

[Stultz, Mark]

The draft instrument Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional
Provisions) Regulations 2022 was reviewed and approved by the Joint Committee 
on Statutory Instruments on 2022-11-23 (
https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/31741/documents/178147/default/)

It now needs to be approved by parliament.  You can track the progress be 
checking the daily order paper 
(https://commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/Document/61034/Html?subType=Standard#20221128-287)
As of today, it is still in the "Remaining Orders and Notices" section which 
means that it has not yet been scheduled for a vote.

Best regards,

Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Richard Georgerian 
Sent: Monday, 28 November, 2022 10:41 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Link to secondary legislation draft RE: [PSES] SI amendment 
providing UKCA label deadline extension.


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Greetings all,

I have been monitoring the following websites to see when the UKCA legislation 
has been implemented regarding the easement of the IUKCA marking to 31 DEC 
2024. Other than the website below advising that it has been extended to 31 DEC 
2024, the actual legislation for the extension cannot be found.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-the-ukca-marking#full-publication-update-history:
 advising that it has been extended to 31 DEC 2024. (However, the actual 
legislation for the extension cannot be found.)

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/primary+secondary?title=The%20Product%20Safety%20and%20Metrology:
 lists of all the "The Product Safety and Metrology " regarding the original 
implementation of the UKCA marking for 31 DEC 2022, which is still on course if 
the easement has not yet been passed.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/1200-1299:
 Shows timeline of all SI legislations.

Thanks in-advance for the assistance.

...Richard Georgerian
Compliance Engineer
HID Global
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Re: [PSES] RoHS Exempt Industrial Machinery

[Stultz, Mark]

Hi Brian,
I recommend reading section 3 of the RoHS 2 FAQ: 
https://environment.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2021-01/FAQ%20key%20guidance%20document%20-%20RoHS.pdf
Here's a few relevant snippets; there is more explanation in the document:

In order to benefit from either exclusion the tool or installation must meet 
all the respective requirements. As stated below, it has to be:

(Tool) - an assembly of machines, equipment and/or components, functioning 
together for a specific application; - permanently installed and de-installed 
by professionals at a given place; - used and maintained by professionals in an 
industrial manufacturing facility or R facility; - and it has to be 
large-scale;

...

Examples of large-scale stationary industrial tools (benefiting from an 
exclusion):

- Machines for the industrial production and processing of materials and goods, 
such as

o CNC lathes;

o Bridge-type milling and drilling machines;

o Metal forming presses;

o Newspaper printing presses;

Best regards,

Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Tuesday, 26 July, 2022 10:36 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] RoHS Exempt Industrial Machinery


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Greetings.

Would a stand-alone industrial cut-off saw (stationary grinding machine), 5hp 
to 30hp, intended to cut through metal material, 3-phase 380V, about the size 
of a large refrigerator and weighing about 400kg (880 lbs) or more, be exempt 
from RoHS?

Wading through all the RoHS documents and guides, it would appear as if such 
machinery by definition of its function would be exempt from RoHS.  Is this 
true or does it also have to be of a certain size and weight?

Thanks,
The Other Brian
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Re: [PSES] Removable door panel grounding

[Stultz, Mark]

I love these clips for the lab and prototyping work, but check the ratings 
before using on any equipment in the field.  In the US, most NRTLs consider 
this a splice which is not allowed on machinery by NFPA 79.  In the EU, these 
parts tend to be rated only for use in structures, not equipment.

Best regards,

Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: James Pawson (U3C) 
Sent: Friday, 17 June, 2022 3:43 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Removable door panel grounding


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Hi Frank,

Could you use a spring clip like this in series with the earthing conductor to 
permit easy disconnection and reconnection?

https://www.wago.com/gb/installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/compact-splicing-connector/p/221-412

https://www.wago.com/gb/installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/compact-splicing-connector/p/221-612

I love these connectors and use them all around the lab

All the best
James


James Pawson
Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver

Unit 3 Compliance Ltd
EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy

www.unit3compliance.co.uk
  |  ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk
+44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957
2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL
Registered in England and Wales # 10574298



From: Frank Tang 
<0d3fa4ae712a-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: 16 June 2022 20:23
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Removable door panel grounding

Hi All,
In the past we have typically done a stud and nut grounding for removable 
lift-off access panels, but this is an inconvenience to disconnect the ground 
cable.
What are other methods for grounding large panel doors (3ft x 7ft) if any?

--
Thank you and best regards.
- Frank
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Re: [PSES] Removable door panel grounding

[Stultz, Mark]

In my experience, a single connection point is risky as it only takes a small 
amount of corrosion to cause the machine to fail the 60204-1 ground bond test.

Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Thursday, 16 June, 2022 6:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Removable door panel grounding


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I'm just curious why something like a spring-loaded captive "finger" couldn't 
be in contact with the door/plate when installed.  I'm assuming here the 
grounding is for safety, not EMI. In the latter case, the gasket approach is 
necessary.  Also, for safety I don't see the gas-tight spot as an issue: a 
little corrosion or "gunk" between plate and finger would break down in the 
event of a line-potential fault to the door/access panel.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


From: John Cochran 
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Reply-To: John Cochran 
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Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 19:52:00 +
To: 
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Subject: Re: [PSES] Removable door panel grounding

>From my knowledge, the access panel will need a ground conductor or metal to 
>metal contact.  The second is more tricky as there can be no electrical 
>components on the panel and no possibility of a live conductor touch it.

I would find a way to keep the ground conductor connected but maybe consider 
ground studs at opposite corners so it has little slack when closed but allows 
the panel to be set aside without disconnecting the ground.


John Cochran
jcoch...@strongarm.com<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjcochran%40strongarm.com%2F=05%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40sealedair.com%7C5195441dc5e341a87b6b08da4fe8cf6d%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C637910158584124332%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=qrCfIF6iRNMzdGQW7Yb5PrQjvnUV1T4%2FZAYLCXPFF1c%3D=0>
 <mailto:jcoch...@strongarm.com>
215-443-3400 x219


From: Stultz, Mark 
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Subject: Re: [PSES] Removable door panel grounding


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Hi Frank,
Can you do a longer ground that allows moving the cover to the side?  In my 
experience it is risky to design a system where the ground is routinely 
disconnected.  If you need to design it that way, I recommend using a braided 
gasket that is partially compressed when the panel is installed.  You'll need 
the panel and gasket plated so that there is no corrosion that would increase 
the contact resistance since this arrangement can't be consider

Re: [PSES] Removable door panel grounding

[Stultz, Mark]

Hi Frank,
Can you do a longer ground that allows moving the cover to the side?  In my 
experience it is risky to design a system where the ground is routinely 
disconnected.  If you need to design it that way, I recommend using a braided 
gasket that is partially compressed when the panel is installed.  You'll need 
the panel and gasket plated so that there is no corrosion that would increase 
the contact resistance since this arrangement can't be considered gas-tight.

Best regards,

Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Frank Tang <0d3fa4ae712a-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Thursday, 16 June, 2022 3:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Removable door panel grounding

You don't often get email from 
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Hi All,
In the past we have typically done a stud and nut grounding for removable 
lift-off access panels, but this is an inconvenience to disconnect the ground 
cable.
What are other methods for grounding large panel doors (3ft x 7ft) if any?

--
Thank you and best regards.
- Frank
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Re: [PSES] IP Code Question

[Stultz, Mark]

Hi Brian,
The IP ratings apply to continuous situations unless stated otherwise.  So IPX2 
means that water drops can be continuously falling at 3mm/min when the EUT is 
tilted up to 15°.  The test lasts for 2.5 minutes per side, but the environment 
is considered continuous.  For our machinery with IP32, we typically make sure 
that any water that enters the enclosure will be directly away from any 
components therein and toward drain holes at the bottom of the enclosure.

Best regards,

Mark Stultz


From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Monday, 14 February, 2022 9:23 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] IP Code Question


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An IP code of IPx2 implies the enclosure protects against the ingress of water 
drops at 15° tilt.  Now, most PC enclosures protect the electronics from 
occasional exposure to water drops, but it is not designed to be exposed to 
water drops continuously.  So can you rate an electronic device IP22, for 
instance, but not intend it to be used outside or in an environment where it is 
exposed to water on a regular basis?

Thanks for your input.
The Other Brian
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Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Magnets as reliable fasteners

[Stultz, Mark]

Ted brings up a great point and it a good reminder that, in addition to the 
standards, you need a cross-functional risk analysis.  This is why I always 
bring in a Service Tech from the field to take part in the risk analysis.  They 
have shown me several "tool holders" over the years.

Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 9 February, 2022 9:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Magnets as reliable fasteners


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Hi Gary,

I have a consideration a bit different from what Doug and Mark have discussed. 
My concern is that magnets inside of an electrical panel could attract foreign 
objects. Loose screws, bolts or other hardware could be attracted to the 
magnets resulting in reduced clearances, or in the worst case, a short circuit. 
They could create a challenge for maintenance on the panels as extra care would 
be needed. I can even foresee service personnel shutting off the panel for 
maintenance and using the magnets as an impromptu tool holder. If they forget 
that a tool is held in place, there could be an electrical incident when the 
panel is reenergized.

Ted Eckert
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Gary Tornquist <05big...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 6:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Magnets as reliable fasteners

Hello experts,
Can magnets be used to fasten line voltage assemblies to the inside of an 
electrical panel?
To restate my concerns, if strong enough could they be considered to reliably 
maintain creepage and clearance distances, as well as not overstressing wires 
terminating at the assembly?
And how strong is strong enough?  Test T2 calls for pushing on parts in the 
most unfavorable direction with 10 newtons of force for 5 seconds - is this an 
appropriate test?

The application is in stationary equipment that does not include motors, so 
vibration should not be a concern.

I welcome advice - this is the first time I've seen such proposed construction 
and I don't know a standard such as 62368 to mention it.

Cheers,
Gary Tornquist
Product Safety Consultants
Opinions expressed are my own, not of my employer or client
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Re: [PSES] Magnets as reliable fasteners

[Stultz, Mark]

Hi Gary,
I would be very cautious here.  Magnetic attraction can degrade over time due 
to a variety of factors (thermal cycling, plating migration, corrosion, 
magnetic field cycling, among others).  While the appliance is stationary, what 
about damage due to shock or vibration during shipping?
I think in general, 63268-1 addresses this in clause 4.1.5:

4.1.5 Constructions and components not specifically covered

Where the equipment involves technologies, components and materials or methods 
of construction not specifically covered in this standard, the equipment shall 
provide safeguards not less than that generally afforded by this standard and 
the principles of safety contained herein.

The need for additional detailed requirements to cope with a new situation 
should be brought promptly to the attention of the appropriate committee.
This seems novel enough to me that it would need to be brought before the 
committee.

Best regards,

Mark Stultz


From: Gary Tornquist <05big...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 8 February, 2022 9:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Magnets as reliable fasteners

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Hello experts,
Can magnets be used to fasten line voltage assemblies to the inside of an 
electrical panel?
To restate my concerns, if strong enough could they be considered to reliably 
maintain creepage and clearance distances, as well as not overstressing wires 
terminating at the assembly?
And how strong is strong enough?  Test T2 calls for pushing on parts in the 
most unfavorable direction with 10 newtons of force for 5 seconds - is this an 
appropriate test?

The application is in stationary equipment that does not include motors, so 
vibration should not be a concern.

I welcome advice - this is the first time I've seen such proposed construction 
and I don't know a standard such as 62368 to mention it.

Cheers,
Gary Tornquist
Product Safety Consultants
Opinions expressed are my own, not of my employer or client
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Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current

[Stultz, Mark]

Many thanks to all for the great conversation on this.  I've learned quite a 
bit!

Mark Stultz


From: MIKE SHERMAN 
Sent: Thursday, 3 February, 2022 3:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current


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Doug --

Thanks for mentioning this!

Yes, I've seen these 30 mA RCDs or RCCBs before, but not an RCBO (confused? 
Google can explain these acronyms).

I've even recommended these for large machinery. The ones we used had 
adjustable trip points up to 30 mA. Note that I recommended these for MACHINE 
protection, not PERSONAL protection. The theory was to monitor potential 
breakdown of the dielectric of the machine by watching the ground leakage 
current. As I recall, early on we found, before it failed completely, a 
variable speed fan drive motor with bridged dielectric that was grounding out 
through a shaft bearing.

I'd love to hear what PETE PERKINS has to say about this!

Personally, given that North American GFCIs for 120 VAC have trip points of 4-6 
mA, I've tended to not like to exceed that number. As I recall, Pete has 
demonstrated that even 5 mA will be a current to remember if you conduct it.

That said, I think Pete told me a while back that the NEC is raising the 
allowable leakage current for EV chargers to something quite above 5 mA. I'm 
sure there's a good story behind that.

Note also that GFCIs, and as I recall the RCD we were using, could fail 
silently and thus needed to be tested regularly to ensure continued protection.

Mike Sherman
On 02/03/2022 8:23 AM Doug Nix mailto:d...@ieee.org>> wrote:


Hi Mark,

I've seen mains filters used for 400 V 3 ph. 200A services with leakage 
currents close to 30 mA. Consider that RCBOs commonly used outside North 
America have a design trip current of 30 mA, so leakage currents above 30 mA 
will cause the RCBO to trip. None the less, these large leakage currents can be 
startling the first time you see them "in the wild".

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org<mailto:d...@ieee.org>
+1 (519) 729-5704


On 1-Feb-22, at 13:24, Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 wrote:
Hello,
Is there a hard limit for leakage current for machinery in the EU?  IEC 60204-1 
provides instructions in clause 8.2.8 for "equipment having earth leakage 
currents higher than 10 mA".  This seems quite high so we have applied the 3.5 
mA limits for class 1 stationary equipment in IEC 60335-1.  Is there another 
source for leakage current limits that is machinery-specific?  There is nothing 
in the type-C standard for this product type.

Thanks,

Mark Stultz


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[PSES] Machinery Leakage Current

[Stultz, Mark]

Hello,
Is there a hard limit for leakage current for machinery in the EU?  IEC 60204-1 
provides instructions in clause 8.2.8 for "equipment having earth leakage 
currents higher than 10 mA".  This seems quite high so we have applied the 3.5 
mA limits for class 1 stationary equipment in IEC 60335-1.  Is there another 
source for leakage current limits that is machinery-specific?  There is nothing 
in the type-C standard for this product type.

Thanks,

Mark Stultz



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[PSES] ISO/IEC symbol for SCCR

[Stultz, Mark]

Hello,
Does anyone know of an ISO or IEC symbol for short circuit current rating?  Is 
it acceptable to abbreviate as SCCR or will this need translated?

Thanks,

Mark Stultz



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Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product

[Stultz, Mark]

We build a top-level generic and then pack the power cord right before crating. 
 Where we run into issues is when we have a distributor in Europe or Asia 
orders the machine based on their location but the end-user is in a different 
country.

Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Scott Douglas 
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 2:49 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Chuck,

We ship up to 4 power cords with plenty of products without any issues. The 
only complaint is from product managers trying to squeeze every last bit of 
margin out of products. Those extra $6 or so get thrown out in most cases.

In past lives we did what Doug suggested. Made the power cord a separate line 
on the customer order. That worked well for us. Only issue there was the power 
cord was not packed in the box with the product.

Scott




On Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 11:19 AM Douglas E Powell 
mailto:doug...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Chuck,

My experience has been that sometimes it works, other times not.  I understand 
the desire ensure the end user get the cord set they actually need, but I've 
also seen where there is backlash.  Some recipients simply throw away the cord 
they don't need.

The best solution I've seen, is to structure top-level BOMs with a generic 
product BOM as one of the "components" and then add country specific 
sub-assemblies, labels, translated user manuals, etc. I've even seen where 
top-level BOMs will have the 2-letter ISO 3166 country code baked into the part 
number.  Keeping in mind, the ISO 639 language codes are not the same as 
country codes.

Best of luck,  Doug

Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01





On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 12:01 PM Charles Jackson 
<156eedbcc0fd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
 wrote:
Hello
I'm wondering if anyone has experience and/or specific information on 
legal/customs requirements that restrict the bundling of multiple region power 
cord-sets with a product.

Thanks in advance
Chuck
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: 
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Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: 

Re: [PSES] Demo exception for EAC certification for Russia

[Stultz, Mark]

Wonderful, Thanks!

Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Graevinghoff Andreas (ETAS/NE) 
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 12:13 PM
To: Stultz, Mark ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Demo exception for EAC certification for Russia


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Hi Mark,

Take a look at

http://tsouz.ru/eek/RSEEK/RKEEK/38z/Pages/R_294.aspx<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftsouz.ru%2Feek%2FRSEEK%2FRKEEK%2F38z%2FPages%2FR_294.aspx=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40SEALEDAIR.COM%7Cbaa82e0c4d8c4d6735ea08d946e2394a%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C637618759711120615%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=VELTPr3aduLH4hbYO61GOmWNNbbjihVNgFcU%2Fhx1Yss%3D=0>

The attached regulation contains the details regarding import procedures 
including exceptions.

Andreas

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards,

Dr. Andreas Grävinghoff

ETAS GmbH
Head of Center of Competence Product Compliance Engineering
Borsigstraße 24
70469 Stuttgart
Germany
http://www.etas.com<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.etas.com%2F=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40SEALEDAIR.COM%7Cbaa82e0c4d8c4d6735ea08d946e2394a%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C637618759711130568%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=NtjLuovnGQBaF%2BhrjLFaFPC5E%2BsbKnQeGdJK0eGiLmY%3D=0>

andreas.graevingh...@etas.com<mailto:andreas.graevingh...@etas.com>

Managing Directors: Friedhelm Pickhard, Bernd Hergert, Christopher White
Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Dr. Walter Schirm
Registered Office: Stuttgart; Registration Court: Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRB 
19033

From: Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 17:51
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Demo exception for EAC certification for Russia

Machinery and many other products require EAC certification or declaration 
prior to "placing on the market" in Russia or other EAEU countries.  Does 
anyone know if there is an exception for demo or trade show machines?

Thanks in advance,


Mark Stultz
10175 Philipp Parkway
Senior Mechanical Development Engineer
Streetsboro, OH 44241
CMSE® - Certified Machinery Safety Expert (TÜV NORD)
330-342-2402
Automated Packaging Systems



[cid:image001.png@01D778B4.2D150E40]


autobag.com<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.autobag.com%2F=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40SEALEDAIR.COM%7Cbaa82e0c4d8c4d6735ea08d946e2394a%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C637618759711130568%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=7KkmV%2BIXgBmLw6FuU%2FpZZ2wkB555kf%2BXWXg%2FsgEO2m4%3D=0>
SealedAir.com<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsealedair.com%2F=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40SEALEDAIR.COM%7Cbaa82e0c4d8c4d6735ea08d946e2394a%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C637618759711140524%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=LDAHrexU3oTApMN562Z%2B9I5RixBaxLMMvw9mP4MTOYQ%3D=0>



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mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40SEALEDAIR.COM%7Cbaa82e0c4d8c4d6735ea08d946e2394a%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C637618759711150482%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=iSq25fS2Q0J3gDZBuPdjzDBSlI33w7xG8zXA3pIJ%2Bmw%3D=0>
 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40SEAL

[PSES] Demo exception for EAC certification for Russia

[Stultz, Mark]

Machinery and many other products require EAC certification or declaration 
prior to "placing on the market" in Russia or other EAEU countries.  Does 
anyone know if there is an exception for demo or trade show machines?

Thanks in advance,


Mark Stultz
10175 Philipp Parkway
Senior Mechanical Development Engineer
Streetsboro, OH 44241
CMSE® - Certified Machinery Safety Expert (TÜV NORD)
330-342-2402
Automated Packaging Systems



[cid:image001.png@01D778A6.85F8FA70]


autobag.com
SealedAir.com




-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] Ganged Conductors in Machinery

[Stultz, Mark]

Hello all,

Is it permissible to combined separate conductors to carry a load in parallel 
within machinery?  If it is allowable, what derating would be required?  I 
can't find reference to this in IEC 60204-1 or NFPA 79.

Many thanks,



Mark Stultz
10175 Philipp Parkway
Senior Mechanical Development Engineer
Streetsboro, OH 44241
CMSE® - Certified Machinery Safety Expert (TÜV NORD)
330-342-2402
Automated Packaging Systems



[cid:image001.png@01D74D0B.C38D5F00]


autobag.com
SealedAir.com




-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

[Stultz, Mark]

I believe Doug is going forward with the meeting.  My mistake was sending a 
calendar invite to the whole list rather than my personal calendar.  Sorry for 
the confusion.

Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Bansi Patel 
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 9:54 AM
To: Stultz, Mark 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Mark
Sorry to see cancellation. I hope you do it very soon. These are the saving 
tips that helps up engineers. Hoping to hear from you soon. Cheers and be safe
Bansi
Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 16, 2021, at 9:21 AM, Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 wrote:

My apologies for the meeting spam…

Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

-Original Appointment-
From: Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 On Behalf Of Stultz, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 9:19 AM
To: doug emcesd.com; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Canceled: engineering rules of thumb
When: Thursday, March 18, 2021 11:00 AM-12:00 PM (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & 
Canada).
Where: Microsoft Teams Meeting
Importance: High


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.



Microsoft Teams meeting
Join on your computer or mobile app
Click here to join the 
meeting<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/ap/t-59584e83/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fteams.microsoft.com%2Fl%2Fmeetup-join%2F19%253ameeting_OGZlNmNkZDItMDhmNC00ZmJlLTg2ZTUtOGFjZDI5ZmZlMzI3%2540thread.v2%2F0%3Fcontext%3D%257b%2522Tid%2522%253a%25222691a251-4c38-4643-af0b-0c0982f197bd%2522%252c%2522Oid%2522%253a%2522ed54b204-7a1a-4b7c-876d-7cbb4035f3ee%2522%257d=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40sealedair.com%7C1c8f4ca1da6c4ef8344508d8e882e8e7%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C637514996242903861%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=LeToko%2BZTjI5zFiEToyur5auOeyBmvVMm98ojV0Bojs%3D=0>
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_
From: doug emcesd.com mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2021 7:13 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Hi All,

I am going to do a 30 minute informal “Rules of Thumb in Electrical 
Engineering” presentation on Thursday at 11 am PDT (US West coast time). All 
are welcome and there is no cost. There will not be a set of slides to 
distribute but you are encouraged to take screenshots of anything that 
interests you (in Windows you can use the built in app “Snip n’ Sketch” to do 
this or on Mac you already know what to do).

My GoToMeeting session can accommodate 150 computers and the session will be 
first come first served. I will cover some rules of thumb for design and safety 
(my safety) that I have accumulated over the last 60 years in engineering.

Afterwards all are welcome to hang around for my rules of thumb on personal 
health. Rules that have 

Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

[Stultz, Mark]

My apologies for the meeting spam...

Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

-Original Appointment-
From: Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> On Behalf 
Of Stultz, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 9:19 AM
To: doug emcesd.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Canceled: engineering rules of thumb
When: Thursday, March 18, 2021 11:00 AM-12:00 PM (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & 
Canada).
Where: Microsoft Teams Meeting
Importance: High


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.



Microsoft Teams meeting
Join on your computer or mobile app
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_
From: doug emcesd.com mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2021 7:13 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Hi All,

I am going to do a 30 minute informal "Rules of Thumb in Electrical 
Engineering" presentation on Thursday at 11 am PDT (US West coast time). All 
are welcome and there is no cost. There will not be a set of slides to 
distribute but you are encouraged to take screenshots of anything that 
interests you (in Windows you can use the built in app "Snip n' Sketch" to do 
this or on Mac you already know what to do).

My GoToMeeting session can accommodate 150 computers and the session will be 
first come first served. I will cover some rules of thumb for design and safety 
(my safety) that I have accumulated over the last 60 years in engineering.

Afterwards all are welcome to hang around for my rules of thumb on personal 
health. Rules that have me in my mid-seventies running 500 miles so far this 
year. Tons of energy and rarely getting sick (last time I missed a day of work 
was 30 years ago, last flu, cold, or sore throat was about 47 years ago).

Here is the information:

Engineering presentation by Doug
Thu, Mar 18, 2021 11:00 AM - 12:00 PM (PDT)

Please join my meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone.

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You can also dial in using your phone.
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New to

[PSES] Canceled: engineering rules of thumb

[Stultz, Mark]

BEGIN:VCALENDAR
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ORGANIZER;CN="Stultz, Mark":mailto:mark.stu...@sealedair.com
ATTENDEE;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=TRUE;CN=doug emces
 d.com:mailto:d...@emcesd.com
ATTENDEE;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=TRUE;CN=EMC-PSTC@L
 ISTSERV.IEEE.ORG:mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
ATTACH:CID:image001.jpg@01D71A45.49DC7810
DESCRIPTION;LANGUAGE=en-US:\n__
 __\nMicrosoft Teams meeting\nJoin on your 
 computer or mobile app\nClick here to join the meeting<https://teams.micro
 soft.com/l/meetup-join/19%3ameeting_OGZlNmNkZDItMDhmNC00ZmJlLTg2ZTUtOGFjZD
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 -0c0982f197bd%22%2c%22Oid%22%3a%22ed54b204-7a1a-4b7c-876d-7cbb4035f3ee%22%
 7d>\n[https://s3.amazonaws.com/see.logos/SEEMark_SACorpLogo_Signature_O365
 .png]\nLearn More<https://aka.ms/JoinTeamsMeeting> | Meeting options\n__
 __\n\n\n__
 ___\nFrom: doug emcesd.com >\nSent
 : Monday\, March 15\, 2021 7:13 PM\nTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG\nSubject: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb\n\
 n\n CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do no
 t click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
  the content is safe.\n\nHi All\,\n\nI am going to do a 30 minute informal
  “Rules of Thumb in Electrical Engineering” presentation on Thursday a
 t 11 am PDT (US West coast time). All are welcome and there is no cost. Th
 ere will not be a set of slides to distribute but you are encouraged to ta
 ke screenshots of anything that interests you (in Windows you can use the 
 built in app “Snip n’ Sketch” to do this or on Mac you already know 
 what to do).\n\nMy GoToMeeting session can accommodate 150 computers and t
 he session will be first come first served. I will cover some rules of thu
 mb for design and safety (my safety) that I have accumulated over the last
  60 years in engineering.\n\nAfterwards all are welcome to hang around for
  my rules of thumb on personal health. Rules that have me in my mid-sevent
 ies running 500 miles so far this year. Tons of energy and rarely getting 
 sick (last time I missed a day of work was 30 years ago\, last flu\, cold\
 , or sore throat was about 47 years ago).\n\nHere is the information:\n\nE
 ngineering presentation by Doug\nThu\, Mar 18\, 2021 11:00 AM - 12:00 PM (
 PDT)\n\nPlease join my meeting from your computer\, tablet or smartphone.\
 n\nhttps://global.gotomeeting.com/join/619784445<https://nam10.safelinks.p
 rotection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fglobal.gotomeeting.com%2Fjoin%2F6
 19784445=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40sealedair.com%7C5cc7c51528104fef7f98
 08d8e807d93d%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C6375144676971226
 95%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1
 haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=%2FaGjp%2FRi03TyXOKrC%2FQTxKPI2v9AVIsWfI%
 2FySjepI%2BQ%3D=0>\n\nYou can also dial in using your phone.\n(Fo
 r supported devices\, tap a one-touch number below to join instantly.)\n\n
 United States: +1 (872) 240-3412\n- One-touch: tel:+18722403412\,\,6197844
 45#\n\nAccess Code: 619-784-445\n\nNew to G
 oToMeeting? Get the app now and be ready when your first meeting starts: h
 ttps://global.gotomeeting.com/install/619784445<https://nam10.safelinks.pr
 otection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fglobal.gotomeeting.com%2Finstall%2
 F619784445=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40sealedair.com%7C5cc7c51528104fef7f
 9808d8e807d93d%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C63751446769713
 2655%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I
 k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=op6G2fqxnAChNX57kDxmDgEPIU8vEqaqp6PAtfq
 C9os%3D=0>\n\nDoug\n[cid:image001.jpg@01D71A45.49DC7810]\n\n-\n--
 --\n\nThis mes
 sage is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussi
 on list. To post a message to the list\, send your e-mail to >\n\nAll emc-pstc postings are archived and
  searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html\n\nAttachments are not permitted but the IEEE 
 PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
 formats)\, large files\, etc.\n\nWebsite: http://www.ieee-pses.org/\nInstructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (incl
 uding how to unsubscribe)<https://nam10.s

[PSES] engineering rules of thumb

[Stultz, Mark]

BEGIN:VCALENDAR
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VERSION:2.0
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RRULE:FREQ=YEARLY;INTERVAL=1;BYDAY=2SU;BYMONTH=3
END:DAYLIGHT
END:VTIMEZONE
BEGIN:VEVENT
ORGANIZER;CN="Stultz, Mark":mailto:mark.stu...@sealedair.com
ATTENDEE;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=TRUE;CN=doug emces
 d.com:mailto:d...@emcesd.com
ATTENDEE;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=TRUE;CN=EMC-PSTC@L
 ISTSERV.IEEE.ORG:mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
ATTACH:CID:image001.jpg@01D71A45.49DC7810
DESCRIPTION;LANGUAGE=en-US:\n__
 __\nMicrosoft Teams meeting\nJoin on your 
 computer or mobile app\nClick here to join the meeting<https://teams.micro
 soft.com/l/meetup-join/19%3ameeting_OGZlNmNkZDItMDhmNC00ZmJlLTg2ZTUtOGFjZD
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 -0c0982f197bd%22%2c%22Oid%22%3a%22ed54b204-7a1a-4b7c-876d-7cbb4035f3ee%22%
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 .png]\nLearn More<https://aka.ms/JoinTeamsMeeting> | Meeting options\n__
 __\n\n\n__
 ___\nFrom: doug emcesd.com >\nSent
 : Monday\, March 15\, 2021 7:13 PM\nTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG\nSubject: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb\n\
 n\n CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do no
 t click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
  the content is safe.\n\nHi All\,\n\nI am going to do a 30 minute informal
  “Rules of Thumb in Electrical Engineering” presentation on Thursday a
 t 11 am PDT (US West coast time). All are welcome and there is no cost. Th
 ere will not be a set of slides to distribute but you are encouraged to ta
 ke screenshots of anything that interests you (in Windows you can use the 
 built in app “Snip n’ Sketch” to do this or on Mac you already know 
 what to do).\n\nMy GoToMeeting session can accommodate 150 computers and t
 he session will be first come first served. I will cover some rules of thu
 mb for design and safety (my safety) that I have accumulated over the last
  60 years in engineering.\n\nAfterwards all are welcome to hang around for
  my rules of thumb on personal health. Rules that have me in my mid-sevent
 ies running 500 miles so far this year. Tons of energy and rarely getting 
 sick (last time I missed a day of work was 30 years ago\, last flu\, cold\
 , or sore throat was about 47 years ago).\n\nHere is the information:\n\nE
 ngineering presentation by Doug\nThu\, Mar 18\, 2021 11:00 AM - 12:00 PM (
 PDT)\n\nPlease join my meeting from your computer\, tablet or smartphone.\
 n\nhttps://global.gotomeeting.com/join/619784445<https://nam10.safelinks.p
 rotection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fglobal.gotomeeting.com%2Fjoin%2F6
 19784445=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40sealedair.com%7C5cc7c51528104fef7f98
 08d8e807d93d%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C6375144676971226
 95%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1
 haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=%2FaGjp%2FRi03TyXOKrC%2FQTxKPI2v9AVIsWfI%
 2FySjepI%2BQ%3D=0>\n\nYou can also dial in using your phone.\n(Fo
 r supported devices\, tap a one-touch number below to join instantly.)\n\n
 United States: +1 (872) 240-3412\n- One-touch: tel:+18722403412\,\,6197844
 45#\n\nAccess Code: 619-784-445\n\nNew to G
 oToMeeting? Get the app now and be ready when your first meeting starts: h
 ttps://global.gotomeeting.com/install/619784445<https://nam10.safelinks.pr
 otection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fglobal.gotomeeting.com%2Finstall%2
 F619784445=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40sealedair.com%7C5cc7c51528104fef7f
 9808d8e807d93d%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C63751446769713
 2655%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I
 k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=op6G2fqxnAChNX57kDxmDgEPIU8vEqaqp6PAtfq
 C9os%3D=0>\n\nDoug\n[cid:image001.jpg@01D71A45.49DC7810]\n\n-\n--
 --\n\nThis mes
 sage is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussi
 on list. To post a message to the list\, send your e-mail to >\n\nAll emc-pstc postings are archived and
  searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html\n\nAttachments are not permitted but the IEEE 
 PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
 formats)\, large files\, etc.\n\nWebsite: http://www.ieee-pses.org/\nInstructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (incl
 uding how to unsubscribe)<https://nam10.s

[PSES] OATS installation

[Stultz, Mark]

Hello,
In an effort to get more accurate pre-compliance measurements, we're looking 
into building an OATS setup.  Does anyone know of any companies in the US that 
will install/build one?

Thanks,




Mark Stultz
10175 Philipp Parkway
Senior Mechanical Development Engineer
Streetsboro, OH 44241
CMSE® - Certified Machinery Safety Expert (TÜV NORD)
330-342-2402
Automated Packaging Systems



[cid:image001.png@01D715A3.7FD24C20]


autobag.com
SealedAir.com




-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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Re: [PSES] Use of Electrical Enclosure as the Ground Bus

[Stultz, Mark]

Hi Curt,

Originally the enclosure was going to be conversion-coated Aluminum and the 
ground lugs were Tin-plated.  In the unending quest for cost reduction, this 
changed to a galvanized steel enclosure with plain brass lugs.  The zinc/brass 
match set off all sorts of galvanic corrosion alarm bells for me which is what 
prompted re-reading the standards.  This machine will be sold worldwide, but 
mostly in the US, Canada, and the EU.  We typically apply IEC 60204-1 for 
electrical safety and EN 415-10 (Packaging Machinery: General).

Thanks,

Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Curt McNamara 
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 12:50 PM
To: Stultz, Mark 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of Electrical Enclosure as the Ground Bus


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

In my experience enclosure metal is usually not satisfactory for a low 
impedance connection that remains corrosion free.

Aluminum is typically anodyzed, and anodyzing is (mostly) non-conductive.

Most steel is painted or plated. Clearing off the surface coating will allow 
corrosion to happen.

There are some plating processes which could allow a low impedance connection. 
It is critical to examine the materials that come in contact with each other, 
as many combinations will lead to corrosion after installation.
https://www.sharrettsplating.com/base-materials/aluminum<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sharrettsplating.com%2Fbase-materials%2Faluminum=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40sealedair.com%7C375bf7546088472689f008d8a1eafa81%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C637437377893605604%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=FyHpw25kbguN8ifem2LppIQoWEV769Fm9WCg2nTE01w%3D=0>

My understanding is that if the metal types are the same, the risk of corrosion 
is lower. Check out the chart on the lower right of this page.
https://galvanizeit.org/corrosion/corrosion-process/galvanic-corrosion<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgalvanizeit.org%2Fcorrosion%2Fcorrosion-process%2Fgalvanic-corrosion=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40sealedair.com%7C375bf7546088472689f008d8a1eafa81%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C637437377893615572%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=hNe0bmnjWcFoQ%2Fb4pg4%2BsfADOVBOQESf%2FYmZJHKUCFQ%3D=0>

It is possible to get ground studs installed at time of enclosure manufacture, 
it will reduce these risks.

What market is this for, and what safety standard will be applied?

Curt McNamara, P.E.

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 11:04 AM Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 wrote:
Hello,

I'm working with an engineering team that wants to use the electrical enclosure 
as the bus for the bonding circuit.  The item is a smallish piece of machinery 
for indoor industrial use.  The motivation is to save the cost of a separate 
copper busbar and reduce the length of bonding wires inside the enclosure.

IEC 60204-1 appears to allow this with stipulations:

Metal enclosures or frames or mounting plates of electrical equipment, 
connected to the protective bonding circuit, may be used as protective 
conductors if they satisfy the following three requirements:

* their electrical continuity shall be assured by construction or by suitable 
connection so as to ensure protection against mechanical, chemical or 
electrochemical deterioration;

* they comply with the requirements of 543.1 of IEC 60364-5-54:2011;

* they shall permit the connection of other protective conductors at every 
predetermined tap-off point.
NFPA 79 appears to not allow this (unless the enclosure were made of copper...):

8.2.2.1 Conductors used for grounding and bonding purposes shall be copper. 
Stipulations on stranding and flexing as outlined in Chapter 12 shall apply.
What are your thoughts on connecting the bonding system this way?  Is NFPA 79 
as inflexible in this regard as I am reading it?

Thanks in advance,


Mark Stultz
10175 Philipp Parkway
Senior Mechanical Development Engineer
Streetsboro, OH 44241
CMSE® - Certified Machinery Safety Expert (TÜV NORD)
330-342-2402
Automated Packaging Systems



[cid:image001.png@01D6D3AD.5A1002D0]


autobag.com<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.autobag.com%2F=04%7C01%7Cmark.stultz%40sealedair.com%7C375bf7546088472689f008d8a1eafa81%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C637437377893615572%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=%2BOotwV7oyK4St0MZlSltZ2kQfh6wVvrPe%2Bj%2FL%2BHKNHc%3D=0&g

[PSES] Use of Electrical Enclosure as the Ground Bus

[Stultz, Mark]

Hello,

I'm working with an engineering team that wants to use the electrical enclosure 
as the bus for the bonding circuit.  The item is a smallish piece of machinery 
for indoor industrial use.  The motivation is to save the cost of a separate 
copper busbar and reduce the length of bonding wires inside the enclosure.

IEC 60204-1 appears to allow this with stipulations:

Metal enclosures or frames or mounting plates of electrical equipment, 
connected to the protective bonding circuit, may be used as protective 
conductors if they satisfy the following three requirements:

* their electrical continuity shall be assured by construction or by suitable 
connection so as to ensure protection against mechanical, chemical or 
electrochemical deterioration;

* they comply with the requirements of 543.1 of IEC 60364-5-54:2011;

* they shall permit the connection of other protective conductors at every 
predetermined tap-off point.
NFPA 79 appears to not allow this (unless the enclosure were made of copper...):

8.2.2.1 Conductors used for grounding and bonding purposes shall be copper. 
Stipulations on stranding and flexing as outlined in Chapter 12 shall apply.
What are your thoughts on connecting the bonding system this way?  Is NFPA 79 
as inflexible in this regard as I am reading it?

Thanks in advance,


Mark Stultz
10175 Philipp Parkway
Senior Mechanical Development Engineer
Streetsboro, OH 44241
CMSE® - Certified Machinery Safety Expert (TÜV NORD)
330-342-2402
Automated Packaging Systems



[cid:image003.png@01D6D3A3.8B964760]


autobag.com
SealedAir.com




-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] SPVD Interpretation

[Stultz, Mark]

Hi David,

We faced a similar issue with our machinery as it includes a custom-built air 
reservoir.  We reached the opposite conclusion as the SPVD only includes the 
following exclusions (in Article 1 clause 2):

2. This Directive shall not apply to:

  1.  vessels specifically designed for nuclear use, failure of which may cause 
an emission of radioactivity;
  2.  vessels specifically intended for installation in or the propulsion of 
ships and aircraft;
  3.  fire extinguishers.
Unless you fit one of those three exclusions, then I believe you need to follow 
the marking requirements.

Best regards,

Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: David Cereceres 
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 1:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] SPVD Interpretation


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.


Hello -

We face an interpretation challenge with an NB regarding the applicability of 
the Simple Pressure Directive 2014/29/EU on air accumulators that are part of 
our end product. The group's expert guidance and opinion on the matter would be 
much appreciated.



Background:

We are stateside manufacture of pneumatic equipment classified below the 
Category I threshold of the Pressure Equipment Directive 2014/68/EU and is 
covered by one of the Directives listed in Article I, section 2(f)) of the PED. 
Therefore, the requirements outlined in the PED are not applied.



Our Dilemma:

Our equipment, or assembly per PED, incorporates an air accumulator (vessel per 
the SPVD.) Moreover, if we were to apply the SPVD, it would fall under Article 
4(2); this is where we differ:



The NB feels that our accumulator, or "vessel" per the SPVD, fall under the 
additional requirements of the SPVD. We would agree with their markings 
enforcement if our supplier or we were placing on the market vessels. However, 
we are not making available or placing "vessels" on the market, and because the 
vessels are part of an "assembly" and went through the PED categorization 
process, it does fall under the SPVD's marking requirements.



What is the group's opinion on our interpretation of the SPVD in this scenario?



Please, feel free to direct message us if additional details are needed to form 
an opinion or provide professional guidance.



Thank you and best regards,

David Cereceres

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: 

[PSES] Japan PSE Labeling

[Stultz, Mark]

Anyone know where to find vector files (dxf, ai, pdf, et cetera) for the PSE 
mark for Japan?  Or dimension requirements?

Thanks,

[cid:image001.png@01D5F87E.2E1AE560]


Mark Stultz
10175 Philipp Parkway
Senior Mechanical Development Engineer
Streetsboro, OH 44241
CMSE® - Certified Machinery Safety Expert (TÜV NORD)
330-342-2402
Automated Packaging Systems



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autobag.com
SealedAir.com





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Re: [PSES] Mandatory certification

[Stultz, Mark]

Hello Kevin,

Thanks for the great explanation.  Who is ultimately responsible for ensuring 
that equipment is certified by a NRTL?  Does the final responsibility fall on 
the purchaser/end-user or on the manufacturer?

Best regards,

Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Kevin Robinson 
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 11:49 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mandatory certification


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Brian,

I manage the NRTL Program for OSHA.  As I am responding from my personal 
address, nothing I say here can be considered as a response from OSHA (but if 
you contact me at robinson.ke...@dol.gov, I will 
state the same thing I say here.)

As for low production units, you might be able to save costs by utilizing 
families.  If you can determine the worst case condition(s) you might be able 
to simply test a few products and have that representative of all of the units 
you manufacture.  As for costs, when I worked for a NRTL (granted this was 12 
years ago), three field evaluations were about the same cost as a full 
certification.  Yes, you might have factory surveillance costs and 
certification mark costs, but compared to the actual testing and certification, 
those costs are minimal.

With regard to your interpretation of 29 CFR 1910.399:

1) This clause only covers NRTL Certification.  Field evaluations are NOT part 
of the NRTL program.  NRTLs who are issuing Field certificates and labels are 
doing so under their own name and not as a NRTL.

2) There are some products for which no NRTL has been able to demonstrate they 
have the necessary test equipment and procedures for.  For example, several 
years ago, OSHA  required crane insulating links to be tested and certified by 
a NRTL.  Until last year, there was no test standard for insulating links and 
the equipment required is very specialized.  OSHA has not yer recognized a NRTL 
to test and certify these insulating links.  There are other examples where 
there are no standards for certain products, or where no NRTL has the 
capability to test to the standard.  In such an instance, the local AHJ may 
approve of the installation, or if another Federal Agency has jurisdiction, 
they may approve of the installation.  In my experience, this is very rare, but 
it is an option.

3) This option only applies to unique custom made equipment that is made 
specifically for an employer.  The example I always give is the requirement 
would apply if a potato farmer contracted with a company to make a custom 
machine that he designed to separate rocks from his potato crop.  This was a 
machine made to his exact and custom specifications, and there is nothing else 
like it.  The manufacturer could conduct some basic safety testing and prepare 
a report to give to the employer to present to OSHA if they ever asked for it. 
Either the manufacturer could do the testing themselves, or they could hire 
someone to conduct the testing for them.  The requirement however would NOT 
apply if you created a "Custom" computer purchased from a major manufacturer 
(ex Dell, Apple, Lenovo etc.) .  While you can go to their website and build a 
custom machine to your exact specifications, the big manufacturers aren't 
really making custom machines.

Everything below this represents my own personal opinion and is something I 
would not say in any official capacity (mostly because manufacturer self 
declaration has so many implications in a broad spectrum of areas).

As for allowing manufacturer self declaration, I would encourage you to look at 
a Request for Information (RFI) that OSHA published almost 10 years ago 
https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=OSHA-2008-0032-0099
  You can review all of the questions OSHA asked and the public responses here 
https://www.regulations.gov/docket?D=OSHA-2008-0032.
  The United States has a very robust product safety system and as a result, 
there are very few injuries as a direct result of products that are NRTL 
certified.  While you may feel that $6000 - 8000 is expensive to product 
certification, I have to ask, and I don't mean to get dramatic, but what is 

[PSES] Residual Voltage Tester

[Stultz, Mark]

Hello,

Anyone know of a good tester for IEC 60204-1 and 60335-1 residual voltage 
that's available in the US?  I'm looking at 
http://www.stanmax.nl/index.php/msom/ but not sure about leadtime from NL.

Thanks!


[cid:image001.png@01D5DA7B.4CAEE2E0]


Mark Stultz
10175 Philipp Parkway
Senior Mechanical Development Engineer
Streetsboro, OH 44241
CMSE® - Certified Machinery Safety Expert (TÜV NORD)
330-342-2402
Automated Packaging Systems



[A picture containing vector graphics  Description automatically generated]


autobag.com
SealedAir.com





-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] Japan PSE Mfg Testing

[Stultz, Mark]

Japan's PSE marking regulations require product testing on the manufacturing 
line.  For generic appliances, the test requirements are "Appearance, 
Dielectric strength, and Energization".  Anyone know what they mean by 
"Energization"?  Is this just a functional operation test? Is it ground/bond 
resistance?

Thanks,


[cid:image005.png@01D59097.7E4A7D10]


Mark Stultz
10175 Philipp Parkway
Senior Mechanical Development Engineer
Streetsboro, OH 44241
CMSE® - Certified Machinery Safety Expert (TÜV NORD)
330-342-2402
Automated Packaging Systems



[A picture containing vector graphics  Description automatically generated]


autobag.com
SealedAir.com





-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: