Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current

[Richard Nute]

 

GFCI = Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter

RCD  = Residual Current Device

 

In North America, GFCI’s typically are included in an outlet that is part of a 
branch circuit.  The GFCI may have a number of outlets downstream.  Under 
normal conditions, the residual leakage current in the downstream outlets and 
equipment connected to them is not zero, and can be a significant portion of 
the 5 mA (nominal) trip current.  So, when a person gets across the 
GFCI-protected branch circuit and causes a trip, the current through the body 
is the difference between the residual leakage current and the 5 ma trip 
current.  So, in such cases, the body current can be much less than the 5 mA 
trip current.

 

The same is the case for the 30 mA RCD in Europe.  However, the RCD is 
installed in the breaker panel for an entire branch circuit, not a portion of 
the branch circuit.  So, the residual leakage current is higher, maybe as much 
as twice that of North America.  And, the voltage, 230, is about twice, so the 
leakage current due to the higher voltage is almost twice that of North 
America.  Using these numbers, the European trip equivalent to the 5 mA trip 
would be about 20 mA or more.   However, the RCD is rated at 30 mA, so when a 
person gets across an RCD-protected circuit, the body current will be much less 
than the 30 mA trip current.

 

Rich

 

 

From: Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> 
Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 1:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current

 

Mike, et al, Thanx for mentioning my name; by now you should be able to 
tell the stories as we’ve talked thru these things before.  

 

   From my experience, protection is primarily needed for cord and 
plug connected equipment where the earthing/grounding is not considered 
reliable – which includes North America.  Most such equipment is allowed to 
have higher touch current under fault conditions, where the fault current 
exceeds 5ma the GFCI provides the needed protection

 

   Since GFCIs look for the ‘lost to ground current’, the 
differential current in the power cord, they also work in circumstances where 
the earth/ground doesn’t exist  (a 2-wire installation) or where it should 
exist but doesn’t.  Many are installed in older 2-wire installations because of 
this in the USA. 

 

   RCDs rated to trip at 30mA are working right at the c1 
Ventricular Fibrillation level of IEC 60479-1 so should provide that protection 
for most people.  

 

   Not sure if RCDs are tested or rated for catching performance 
degradation in machines but you apparently have experience with that.  It would 
be nice to see a paper on that performance feature.  

 

   North American GFCIs are rated at 5mA which is the 
letgo-immobilization limit specified in IEC 60479-1.  (Yes, I know the 
allowable range is not trip at 4mA but must trip at 6mA; the rated trip current 
is still 5mA.)  You can still disengage from the current at that level, 
providing that level of protection.  

 

   Both North American GFCIs and Euro RCDs are not rated to deal 
well with high frequency signals generated by Switch Mode Power Supplies and 
Variable Speed Drives for motors.  Lots of ‘nuisance tripping’ results.  There 
is an ongoing UL project to get a handle on this and get it fixed here in NA.  

 

   Yes, EV chargers are being provided with GFCIs at higher levels, 
depending upon the installation/application parameters. 

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> www.researchgate.net search my 
name

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 


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Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current

[Stultz, Mark]

Many thanks to all for the great conversation on this.  I've learned quite a 
bit!

Mark Stultz


From: MIKE SHERMAN 
Sent: Thursday, 3 February, 2022 3:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
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Doug --

Thanks for mentioning this!

Yes, I've seen these 30 mA RCDs or RCCBs before, but not an RCBO (confused? 
Google can explain these acronyms).

I've even recommended these for large machinery. The ones we used had 
adjustable trip points up to 30 mA. Note that I recommended these for MACHINE 
protection, not PERSONAL protection. The theory was to monitor potential 
breakdown of the dielectric of the machine by watching the ground leakage 
current. As I recall, early on we found, before it failed completely, a 
variable speed fan drive motor with bridged dielectric that was grounding out 
through a shaft bearing.

I'd love to hear what PETE PERKINS has to say about this!

Personally, given that North American GFCIs for 120 VAC have trip points of 4-6 
mA, I've tended to not like to exceed that number. As I recall, Pete has 
demonstrated that even 5 mA will be a current to remember if you conduct it.

That said, I think Pete told me a while back that the NEC is raising the 
allowable leakage current for EV chargers to something quite above 5 mA. I'm 
sure there's a good story behind that.

Note also that GFCIs, and as I recall the RCD we were using, could fail 
silently and thus needed to be tested regularly to ensure continued protection.

Mike Sherman
On 02/03/2022 8:23 AM Doug Nix mailto:d...@ieee.org>> wrote:


Hi Mark,

I've seen mains filters used for 400 V 3 ph. 200A services with leakage 
currents close to 30 mA. Consider that RCBOs commonly used outside North 
America have a design trip current of 30 mA, so leakage currents above 30 mA 
will cause the RCBO to trip. None the less, these large leakage currents can be 
startling the first time you see them "in the wild".

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org<mailto:d...@ieee.org>
+1 (519) 729-5704


On 1-Feb-22, at 13:24, Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 wrote:
Hello,
Is there a hard limit for leakage current for machinery in the EU?  IEC 60204-1 
provides instructions in clause 8.2.8 for "equipment having earth leakage 
currents higher than 10 mA".  This seems quite high so we have applied the 3.5 
mA limits for class 1 stationary equipment in IEC 60335-1.  Is there another 
source for leakage current limits that is machinery-specific?  There is nothing 
in the type-C standard for this product type.

Thanks,

Mark Stultz


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Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current

[Pete Perkins]

Mike, et al, Thanx for mentioning my name; by now you should be able to 
tell the stories as we’ve talked thru these things before.  

 

   From my experience, protection is primarily needed for cord and 
plug connected equipment where the earthing/grounding is not considered 
reliable – which includes North America.  Most such equipment is allowed to 
have higher touch current under fault conditions, where the fault current 
exceeds 5ma the GFCI provides the needed protection

 

   Since GFCIs look for the ‘lost to ground current’, the 
differential current in the power cord, they also work in circumstances where 
the earth/ground doesn’t exist  (a 2-wire installation) or where it should 
exist but doesn’t.  Many are installed in older 2-wire installations because of 
this in the USA. 

 

   RCDs rated to trip at 30mA are working right at the c1 
Ventricular Fibrillation level of IEC 60479-1 so should provide that protection 
for most people.  

 

   Not sure if RCDs are tested or rated for catching performance 
degradation in machines but you apparently have experience with that.  It would 
be nice to see a paper on that performance feature.  

 

   North American GFCIs are rated at 5mA which is the 
letgo-immobilization limit specified in IEC 60479-1.  (Yes, I know the 
allowable range is not trip at 4mA but must trip at 6mA; the rated trip current 
is still 5mA.)  You can still disengage from the current at that level, 
providing that level of protection.  

 

   Both North American GFCIs and Euro RCDs are not rated to deal 
well with high frequency signals generated by Switch Mode Power Supplies and 
Variable Speed Drives for motors.  Lots of ‘nuisance tripping’ results.  There 
is an ongoing UL project to get a handle on this and get it fixed here in NA.  

 

   Yes, EV chargers are being provided with GFCIs at higher levels, 
depending upon the installation/application parameters. 

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> www.researchgate.net search my 
name

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: MIKE SHERMAN  
Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 12:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current

 

Doug -- 

 

Thanks for mentioning this! 

 

Yes, I've seen these 30 mA RCDs or RCCBs before, but not an RCBO (confused? 
Google can explain these acronyms). 

 

I've even recommended these for large machinery. The ones we used had 
adjustable trip points up to 30 mA. Note that I recommended these for MACHINE 
protection, not PERSONAL protection. The theory was to monitor potential 
breakdown of the dielectric of the machine by watching the ground leakage 
current. As I recall, early on we found, before it failed completely, a 
variable speed fan drive motor with bridged dielectric that was grounding out 
through a shaft bearing. 

 

I'd love to hear what PETE PERKINS has to say about this! 

 

Personally, given that North American GFCIs for 120 VAC have trip points of 4-6 
mA, I've tended to not like to exceed that number. As I recall, Pete has 
demonstrated that even 5 mA will be a current to remember if you conduct it. 

 

That said, I think Pete told me a while back that the NEC is raising the 
allowable leakage current for EV chargers to something quite above 5 mA. I'm 
sure there's a good story behind that. 

 

Note also that GFCIs, and as I recall the RCD we were using, could fail 
silently and thus needed to be tested regularly to ensure continued protection. 

 

Mike Sherman 

On 02/03/2022 8:23 AM Doug Nix mailto:d...@ieee.org> > wrote: 

 

 

Hi Mark, 

 

I’ve seen mains filters used for 400 V 3 ph. 200A services with leakage 
currents close to 30 mA. Consider that RCBOs commonly used outside North 
America have a design trip current of 30 mA, so leakage currents above 30 mA 
will cause the RCBO to trip. None the less, these large leakage currents can be 
startling the first time you see them “in the wild”. 

 

Doug Nix 
d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org>  
+1 (519) 729-5704 





On 1-Feb-22, at 13:24, Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > wrote: 

Hello, 

Is there a hard limit for leakage current for machinery in the EU?  IEC 60204-1 
provides instructions in clause 8.2.8 for “equipment having earth leakage 
currents higher than 10 mA”.  This seems quite high so we have applied the 3.5 
mA limits for class 1 stationary equipment in IEC 60335-1.  Is there another 
source for leakage current limits that is machinery-specific

Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current

[MIKE SHERMAN]

Doug --

Thanks for mentioning this!

Yes, I've seen these 30 mA RCDs or RCCBs before, but not an RCBO (confused? 
Google can explain these acronyms).

I've even recommended these for large machinery. The ones we used had 
adjustable trip points up to 30 mA. Note that I recommended these for MACHINE 
protection, not PERSONAL protection. The theory was to monitor potential 
breakdown of the dielectric of the machine by watching the ground leakage 
current. As I recall, early on we found, before it failed completely, a 
variable speed fan drive motor with bridged dielectric that was grounding out 
through a shaft bearing.

I'd love to hear what PETE PERKINS has to say about this!

Personally, given that North American GFCIs for 120 VAC have trip points of 4-6 
mA, I've tended to not like to exceed that number. As I recall, Pete has 
demonstrated that even 5 mA will be a current to remember if you conduct it.

That said, I think Pete told me a while back that the NEC is raising the 
allowable leakage current for EV chargers to something quite above 5 mA. I'm 
sure there's a good story behind that.

Note also that GFCIs, and as I recall the RCD we were using, could fail 
silently and thus needed to be tested regularly to ensure continued protection.

Mike Sherman

> On 02/03/2022 8:23 AM Doug Nix  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> I’ve seen mains filters used for 400 V 3 ph. 200A services with leakage 
> currents close to 30 mA. Consider that RCBOs commonly used outside North 
> America have a design trip current of 30 mA, so leakage currents above 30 mA 
> will cause the RCBO to trip. None the less, these large leakage currents can 
> be startling the first time you see them “in the wild”.
> 
> Doug Nix
> d...@ieee.org mailto:d...@ieee.org
> +1 (519) 729-5704
> 
> 
> > > On 1-Feb-22, at 13:24, Stultz, Mark 
> <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
> mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > wrote:
> > Hello,
> > Is there a hard limit for leakage current for machinery in the EU?  
> > IEC 60204-1 provides instructions in clause 8.2.8 for “equipment having 
> > earth leakage currents higher than 10 mA”.  This seems quite high so we 
> > have applied the 3.5 mA limits for class 1 stationary equipment in IEC 
> > 60335-1.  Is there another source for leakage current limits that is 
> > machinery-specific?  There is nothing in the type-C standard for this 
> > product type.
> >  
> > Thanks,
> >  
> > Mark Stultz
> > 
> > 
> > -
> > 
> > 
> > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
> > emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail 
> > to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org >
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> > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> > 
> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
> > site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in 
> > well-used formats), large files, etc.
> > 
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering 

Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current

[Doug Nix]

Hi Mark,

I’ve seen mains filters used for 400 V 3 ph. 200A services with leakage 
currents close to 30 mA. Consider that RCBOs commonly used outside North 
America have a design trip current of 30 mA, so leakage currents above 30 mA 
will cause the RCBO to trip. None the less, these large leakage currents can be 
startling the first time you see them “in the wild”.

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org
+1 (519) 729-5704

> On 1-Feb-22, at 13:24, Stultz, Mark 
> <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello, <>
> Is there a hard limit for leakage current for machinery in the EU?  IEC 
> 60204-1 provides instructions in clause 8.2.8 for “equipment having earth 
> leakage currents higher than 10 mA”.  This seems quite high so we have 
> applied the 3.5 mA limits for class 1 stationary equipment in IEC 60335-1.  
> Is there another source for leakage current limits that is 
> machinery-specific?  There is nothing in the type-C standard for this product 
> type.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark Stultz
> 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
>  can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
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> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
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Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current

[MIKE SHERMAN]

Mark --

Interesting question!

I would agree with 3.5 mA for cord and plug connected stationary equipment up 
to several HP. However, note that 8.2.6e) of 60204-1 describes cord and plug 
connected equipment with leakage above 10 mA.

However, I think that a quite large piece of machinery that could fall under 
the scope of 60204-1 might well have leakage currents above 10 mA, making it 
hard to set an absolute limit. As 8.2.6 suggests, such a high current is 
probably best addressed by very robust grounding, as well as bonding.

Note also that for North America, UL limits are generally quite lower than 3.5 
mA.

Mike Sherman
Retired Product Safety Engineer


> On 02/01/2022 12:24 PM Stultz, Mark 
> <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Is there a hard limit for leakage current for machinery in the EU?  IEC 
> 60204-1 provides instructions in clause 8.2.8 for “equipment having earth 
> leakage currents higher than 10 mA”.  This seems quite high so we have 
> applied the 3.5 mA limits for class 1 stationary equipment in IEC 60335-1.  
> Is there another source for leakage current limits that is 
> machinery-specific?  There is nothing in the type-C standard for this product 
> type.
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
>  
> 
> Mark Stultz
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org >
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site 
> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> 

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[PSES] Machinery Leakage Current

[Stultz, Mark]

Hello,
Is there a hard limit for leakage current for machinery in the EU?  IEC 60204-1 
provides instructions in clause 8.2.8 for "equipment having earth leakage 
currents higher than 10 mA".  This seems quite high so we have applied the 3.5 
mA limits for class 1 stationary equipment in IEC 60335-1.  Is there another 
source for leakage current limits that is machinery-specific?  There is nothing 
in the type-C standard for this product type.

Thanks,

Mark Stultz



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