Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
In message 5252fe1f.3010...@earthlink.net, dated Mon, 7 Oct 2013, Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net writes: . But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. That applies in many third-world countries; the police collect the subscriptions. (;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
Cortland, You have a problem with logic. Consider having it removed. Regards, Gary Stuyvenberg Thompson Consulting Wind Lake, WI But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. From: Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into the Code of Federal Regulations by reference, various agencies render invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading rooms (I think) to find out. In practice? We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford to buy copies of their own. But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. Cortland Richmond On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote: There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how standards should be free. The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTM to claim otherwise. Regards, Peter L. Tarver - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
Doug has a point, the laws are available, and we can get access for free. The problem is we spend our lives trying to find which laws we have to comply with, then more than likely have lawyers try to agree what they really meant when it was written! Time we reduced the number of laws Derek. Sent from my iPad On Oct 7, 2013, at 16:41, Doug Powell doug...@gmail.com wrote: Cortland I am not certain you speed limit example explains the point you are trying to make. Here in Colorado we have the Colorado Revised Statutes, or CRS. In these laws are all the requirements for citizens to follow so they are in compliance with the law. In practice posted speed limits are akin to the warning labels we put on products like: Danger High Voltage or Speed Limit 65. In my state we can go to the government website and read any portion of the CRS for free. Same with the US Code of Federal Regulations. Now, if this were available only by paid subscription, then your point would be made. Of course, how many citizens actually read the law in its entirety? I suspect it is less than even 1%. Hence the need for posted cautionary and warning statements. Doug From: Cortland Richmond Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: k...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into the Code of Federal Regulations by reference, various agencies render invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading rooms (I think) to find out. In practice? We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford to buy copies of their own. But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. Cortland Richmond On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote: There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how standards should be free. The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTM to claim otherwise. Regards, Peter L. Tarver - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
I suggested that to one of our state legislators a few years ago when he was complaining about a number of “stupid laws”. If looks could kill I would have been 6 feet under several years ago. Ghery S. Pettit From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit Doug has a point, the laws are available, and we can get access for free. The problem is we spend our lives trying to find which laws we have to comply with, then more than likely have lawyers try to agree what they really meant when it was written! Time we reduced the number of laws Derek. Sent from my iPad On Oct 7, 2013, at 16:41, Doug Powell doug...@gmail.commailto:doug...@gmail.com wrote: Cortland I am not certain you speed limit example explains the point you are trying to make. Here in Colorado we have the Colorado Revised Statutes, or CRS. In these laws are all the requirements for citizens to follow so they are in compliance with the law. In practice posted speed limits are akin to the warning labels we put on products like: Danger High Voltage or Speed Limit 65. In my state we can go to the government website and read any portion of the CRS for free. Same with the US Code of Federal Regulations. Now, if this were available only by paid subscription, then your point would be made. Of course, how many citizens actually read the law in its entirety? I suspect it is less than even 1%. Hence the need for posted cautionary and warning statements. Doug From: Cortland Richmond Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: k...@earthlink.netmailto:k...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into the Code of Federal Regulations by reference, various agencies render invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading rooms (I think) to find out. In practice? We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford to buy copies of their own. But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. Cortland Richmond On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote: There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how standards should be free. The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTMhttp://www.nfpa.org/newsandpublications/nfpa-journal/2013/september-october-2013/pov/first-word?order_src=C247 to claim otherwise. Regards, Peter L. Tarver - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message
Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
Conceptually I agree but I can’t see how it could ever be solved. “Stupid” is pretty relative. We have environmental laws which many see as “stupid”. Unrestricted coal burning for example. Some countries have no such laws –or don’t enforce them - and you can’t see the horizon because it’s “foggy”. The shear plethora of laws occurs because as soon as a law is published somebody looks for a way to circumvent the intent of the law (probably because it was stupid), then another law is made or amended to address the circumvention. Ad nauseaium (Homemade Latin phrase) Certainly my opinion only. Gary From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:03 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit I suggested that to one of our state legislators a few years ago when he was complaining about a number of “stupid laws”. If looks could kill I would have been 6 feet under several years ago. Ghery S. Pettit From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit Doug has a point, the laws are available, and we can get access for free. The problem is we spend our lives trying to find which laws we have to comply with, then more than likely have lawyers try to agree what they really meant when it was written! Time we reduced the number of laws Derek. Sent from my iPad On Oct 7, 2013, at 16:41, Doug Powell doug...@gmail.commailto:doug...@gmail.com wrote: Cortland I am not certain you speed limit example explains the point you are trying to make. Here in Colorado we have the Colorado Revised Statutes, or CRS. In these laws are all the requirements for citizens to follow so they are in compliance with the law. In practice posted speed limits are akin to the warning labels we put on products like: Danger High Voltage or Speed Limit 65. In my state we can go to the government website and read any portion of the CRS for free. Same with the US Code of Federal Regulations. Now, if this were available only by paid subscription, then your point would be made. Of course, how many citizens actually read the law in its entirety? I suspect it is less than even 1%. Hence the need for posted cautionary and warning statements. Doug From: Cortland Richmond Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: k...@earthlink.netmailto:k...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into the Code of Federal Regulations by reference, various agencies render invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading rooms (I think) to find out. In practice? We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford to buy copies of their own. But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. Cortland Richmond On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote: There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how standards should be free. The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTMhttp://www.nfpa.org/newsandpublications/nfpa-journal/2013/september-october-2013/pov/first-word?order_src=C247 to claim otherwise. Regards, Peter L. Tarver - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product
Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
I think he was referring to laws that anyone would think stupid, like the old classic one requiring someone with a red flag to talk in front of a motor vehicle to warn people riding horses. Not that we still have that one, but you get the idea of what he was talking about. Given that this particular legislator and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum and about the only thing we seem to agree on is our love for Washington State University I thought it was a good opportunity to jab him for a number of what I would consider “stupid laws” when he was complaining about the existence of them. Oh well… Ghery S. Pettit From: McInturff, Gary [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:43 AM To: Pettit, Ghery; 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG' Subject: RE: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit Conceptually I agree but I can’t see how it could ever be solved. “Stupid” is pretty relative. We have environmental laws which many see as “stupid”. Unrestricted coal burning for example. Some countries have no such laws –or don’t enforce them - and you can’t see the horizon because it’s “foggy”. The shear plethora of laws occurs because as soon as a law is published somebody looks for a way to circumvent the intent of the law (probably because it was stupid), then another law is made or amended to address the circumvention. Ad nauseaium (Homemade Latin phrase) Certainly my opinion only. Gary From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:03 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit I suggested that to one of our state legislators a few years ago when he was complaining about a number of “stupid laws”. If looks could kill I would have been 6 feet under several years ago. Ghery S. Pettit From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit Doug has a point, the laws are available, and we can get access for free. The problem is we spend our lives trying to find which laws we have to comply with, then more than likely have lawyers try to agree what they really meant when it was written! Time we reduced the number of laws Derek. Sent from my iPad On Oct 7, 2013, at 16:41, Doug Powell doug...@gmail.commailto:doug...@gmail.com wrote: Cortland I am not certain you speed limit example explains the point you are trying to make. Here in Colorado we have the Colorado Revised Statutes, or CRS. In these laws are all the requirements for citizens to follow so they are in compliance with the law. In practice posted speed limits are akin to the warning labels we put on products like: Danger High Voltage or Speed Limit 65. In my state we can go to the government website and read any portion of the CRS for free. Same with the US Code of Federal Regulations. Now, if this were available only by paid subscription, then your point would be made. Of course, how many citizens actually read the law in its entirety? I suspect it is less than even 1%. Hence the need for posted cautionary and warning statements. Doug From: Cortland Richmond Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: k...@earthlink.netmailto:k...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into the Code of Federal Regulations by reference, various agencies render invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading rooms (I think) to find out. In practice? We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford to buy copies of their own. But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. Cortland Richmond On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote: There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how standards should be free. The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTMhttp://www.nfpa.org/newsandpublications/nfpa-journal/2013/september-october-2013/pov/first-word?order_src=C247 to claim otherwise. Regards, Peter L. Tarver - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org
Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
Actually, Waynesboro Virginia does still have the red flag law, but it is stranger than you might think. The city still has a law that prohibits women from driving on main street unless their husband is walking in front of the car waving a red flag. I would also recommend that you stock up on rockets before any night driving on any rural roads in Pennsylvania. http://jalopnik.com/the-ten-most-obscure-car-laws-in-the-us-1441966655 This email message and attachments may contain confidential and proprietary information. Any unauthorized use is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message and attachments. From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2013 8:53 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit I think he was referring to laws that anyone would think stupid, like the old classic one requiring someone with a red flag to talk in front of a motor vehicle to warn people riding horses. Not that we still have that one, but you get the idea of what he was talking about. Given that this particular legislator and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum and about the only thing we seem to agree on is our love for Washington State University I thought it was a good opportunity to jab him for a number of what I would consider “stupid laws” when he was complaining about the existence of them. Oh well… Ghery S. Pettit From: McInturff, Gary [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:43 AM To: Pettit, Ghery; 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG' Subject: RE: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit Conceptually I agree but I can’t see how it could ever be solved. “Stupid” is pretty relative. We have environmental laws which many see as “stupid”. Unrestricted coal burning for example. Some countries have no such laws –or don’t enforce them - and you can’t see the horizon because it’s “foggy”. The shear plethora of laws occurs because as soon as a law is published somebody looks for a way to circumvent the intent of the law (probably because it was stupid), then another law is made or amended to address the circumvention. Ad nauseaium (Homemade Latin phrase) Certainly my opinion only. Gary From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:03 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit I suggested that to one of our state legislators a few years ago when he was complaining about a number of “stupid laws”. If looks could kill I would have been 6 feet under several years ago. Ghery S. Pettit From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit Doug has a point, the laws are available, and we can get access for free. The problem is we spend our lives trying to find which laws we have to comply with, then more than likely have lawyers try to agree what they really meant when it was written! Time we reduced the number of laws Derek. Sent from my iPad On Oct 7, 2013, at 16:41, Doug Powell doug...@gmail.commailto:doug...@gmail.com wrote: Cortland I am not certain you speed limit example explains the point you are trying to make. Here in Colorado we have the Colorado Revised Statutes, or CRS. In these laws are all the requirements for citizens to follow so they are in compliance with the law. In practice posted speed limits are akin to the warning labels we put on products like: Danger High Voltage or Speed Limit 65. In my state we can go to the government website and read any portion of the CRS for free. Same with the US Code of Federal Regulations. Now, if this were available only by paid subscription, then your point would be made. Of course, how many citizens actually read the law in its entirety? I suspect it is less than even 1%. Hence the need for posted cautionary and warning statements. Doug From: Cortland Richmond Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: k...@earthlink.netmailto:k...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into the Code of Federal Regulations by reference, various agencies render invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading rooms (I think) to find out. In practice? We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford to buy copies of their own. But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. Cortland Richmond On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote: There is occasionally
Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
and the number of lawyers. From: Derek Walton Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit Doug has a point, the laws are available, and we can get access for free. The problem is we spend our lives trying to find which laws we have to comply with, then more than likely have lawyers try to agree what they really meant when it was written! Time we reduced the number of laws Derek. Sent from my iPad On Oct 7, 2013, at 16:41, Doug Powell doug...@gmail.com wrote: Cortland I am not certain you speed limit example explains the point you are trying to make. Here in Colorado we have the Colorado Revised Statutes, or CRS. In these laws are all the requirements for citizens to follow so they are in compliance with the law. In practice posted speed limits are akin to the warning labels we put on products like: Danger High Voltage or Speed Limit 65. In my state we can go to the government website and read any portion of the CRS for free. Same with the US Code of Federal Regulations. Now, if this were available only by paid subscription, then your point would be made. Of course, how many citizens actually read the law in its entirety? I suspect it is less than even 1%. Hence the need for posted cautionary and warning statements. Doug From: Cortland Richmond Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: k...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into the Code of Federal Regulations by reference, various agencies render invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading rooms (I think) to find out. In practice? We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford to buy copies of their own. But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. Cortland Richmond On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote: There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how standards should be free. The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTM to claim otherwise. Regards, Peter L. Tarver - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp
Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
Probably more accurate is that we see laws we do not like and then try to find ways around them or to find loopholes that apply to us. Sometimes it is simply better for all if we just read and understand the intent of laws and not try to sway them in one way or the other. H not gonna happen. Dennis Ward Senior Certification Engineer PCTEST This communication and its attachments contain information from PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, Inc., and is intended for the exclusive use of the recipient (s) named above. It may contain information that is confidential and/or legally privileged. Any unauthorized use that may compromise that confidentiality via distribution or disclosure is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately if you receive this communication in error, and delete it from your computer system. Usage of PCTEST email addresses for non-business related activities is strictly prohibited. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect. Thank you. From: John Shinn [mailto:jmsh...@pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 1:15 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit and the number of lawyers. From: Derek Walton mailto:lfresea...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit Doug has a point, the laws are available, and we can get access for free. The problem is we spend our lives trying to find which laws we have to comply with, then more than likely have lawyers try to agree what they really meant when it was written! Time we reduced the number of laws Derek. Sent from my iPad On Oct 7, 2013, at 16:41, Doug Powell doug...@gmail.com wrote: Cortland I am not certain you speed limit example explains the point you are trying to make. Here in Colorado we have the Colorado Revised Statutes, or CRS. In these laws are all the requirements for citizens to follow so they are in compliance with the law. In practice posted speed limits are akin to the warning labels we put on products like: Danger High Voltage or Speed Limit 65. In my state we can go to the government website and read any portion of the CRS for free. Same with the US Code of Federal Regulations. Now, if this were available only by paid subscription, then your point would be made. Of course, how many citizens actually read the law in its entirety? I suspect it is less than even 1%. Hence the need for posted cautionary and warning statements. Doug From: Cortland Richmond Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: k...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into the Code of Federal Regulations by reference, various agencies render invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading rooms (I think) to find out. In practice? We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford to buy copies of their own. But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. Cortland Richmond On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote: There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how standards should be free. The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTM http://www.nfpa.org/newsandpublications/nfpa-journal/2013/september-october-2013/pov/first-word?order_src=C247 to claim otherwise. Regards, Peter L. Tarver - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted
[PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how standards should be free. The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTMhttp://www.nfpa.org/newsandpublications/nfpa-journal/2013/september-october-2013/pov/first-word?order_src=C247to claim otherwise. Regards, Peter L. Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into the Code of Federal Regulations by reference, various agencies render invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading rooms (I think) to find out. In practice? We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford to buy copies of their own. But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. Cortland Richmond On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote: There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how standards should be free. The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTM http://www.nfpa.org/newsandpublications/nfpa-journal/2013/september-october-2013/pov/first-word?order_src=C247 to claim otherwise. Regards, Peter L. Tarver - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
CortlandI am not certain you speed limit example explains the point you are trying to make.Here in Colorado we have the Colorado Revised Statutes, or CRS. In these laws are all the requirements for citizens to follow so they are in compliance with the law. In practice posted speed limits are akin to the warning labels we put on products like: Danger High Voltage or Speed Limit 65. In my state we can go to the government website and read any portion of the CRS for free. Same with the US Code of Federal Regulations. Now, if this were available only by paid subscription, then your point would be made. Of course, how many citizens actually read the law in its entirety? I suspect it is less than even 1%. Hence the need for posted cautionary and warning statements.DougFrom: Cortland RichmondSent: Monday, October 7, 2013 12:32 PMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGReply To: k...@earthlink.netSubject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into the Code of Federal Regulations "by reference," various agencies render invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading rooms (I think) to find out. In practice? We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford to buy copies of their own. But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. Cortland Richmond On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote: There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how "standards should be free." The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTM to claim otherwise. Regards, Peter L. Tarver - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
