Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
That is the procedure I prefer to follow on our products- try to stick with ANSI/ISO text-less pictograms on the product and include the pictogram and text/translations in the manuals. And hope they include the manual in the glove box for the rental car. It gives the co-pilot something to do. -Dave From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2016 1:06 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Brian et al, This is a non-ending topic – hazard markings on equipment (note that WARNING is a specific key-word so I use the term hazard marking). It was a detailed discussion at the recent PSES ISPCE meeting in Anaheim (check the proceedings) . The crux of the problem is that symbols are not generally understood without a lot of training and exposure/experience. The behavioral/human factors folks keep pointing this out and will be called in by the lawyers to condemn your markings if they don’t contain the needed textual information. The US/ANSI standard properly implements a defendable approach which includes the words along with the pictograms. Do you feel comfortable with all of the symbols in the cockpit of any imported car? We’re beginning to learn what they mean as Americans but it still is not always clear and difficult to quickly make changes while also driving under difficult conditions (how do you do in a rental car taking it out in a rainstorm after dark). This is a dilemma for companies that ship products worldwide. My ongoing recommendation for companies which design for the North American market and also ship worldwide is to use ANSI markings which include the pictograms then include each marking in the manual as a picture/illustration plus include the text in the body of the document in a way that it will be translated whenever the manual is translated into another language. Hope this helps. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net] Sent: Monday, May 4, 2015 1:25 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Hello again, Brian; It sure does sound to me like you've done your basic diligence; are the ANSI compliant symbols any different from the JIT compliant symbols? Even when I was with an NRTL/NB organization, I was often irked by standards requirements that were not requested or considered useful by actual customers. That being said, I've got the feeling that an informed answer would require a fairly detailed account of "getting dinged in Europe" Regards, Brian Gregory [Colorado] 720-450-4933 -- Original Message -- From: "Kunde, Brian" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com<mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 18:15:40 + Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so we switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few years ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the labels with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we sold in. This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our sales offices in Europe but we don’t know what country it might be sold in until it is purchased. Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those are fighting words). We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the User’s Manual and the manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country it is sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments are generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians, etc.) and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other languages are requested we try to provide them translated copies fairly quickly. It’s very costly , too. Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the US. Classes are in English Only. The other Brian From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the user documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user manuals to the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible using symbols only is an economical option.
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Brian et al, This is a non-ending topic – hazard markings on equipment (note that WARNING is a specific key-word so I use the term hazard marking). It was a detailed discussion at the recent PSES ISPCE meeting in Anaheim (check the proceedings) . The crux of the problem is that symbols are not generally understood without a lot of training and exposure/experience. The behavioral/human factors folks keep pointing this out and will be called in by the lawyers to condemn your markings if they don’t contain the needed textual information. The US/ANSI standard properly implements a defendable approach which includes the words along with the pictograms. Do you feel comfortable with all of the symbols in the cockpit of any imported car? We’re beginning to learn what they mean as Americans but it still is not always clear and difficult to quickly make changes while also driving under difficult conditions (how do you do in a rental car taking it out in a rainstorm after dark). This is a dilemma for companies that ship products worldwide. My ongoing recommendation for companies which design for the North American market and also ship worldwide is to use ANSI markings which include the pictograms then include each marking in the manual as a picture/illustration plus include the text in the body of the document in a way that it will be translated whenever the manual is translated into another language. Hope this helps. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net] Sent: Monday, May 4, 2015 1:25 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Hello again, Brian; It sure does sound to me like you've done your basic diligence; are the ANSI compliant symbols any different from the JIT compliant symbols? Even when I was with an NRTL/NB organization, I was often irked by standards requirements that were not requested or considered useful by actual customers. That being said, I've got the feeling that an informed answer would require a fairly detailed account of "getting dinged in Europe" Regards, Brian Gregory [Colorado] 720-450-4933 -- Original Message -- From: "Kunde, Brian" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com <mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com> > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 18:15:40 + Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so we switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few years ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the labels with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we sold in. This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our sales offices in Europe but we don’t know what country it might be sold in until it is purchased. Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those are fighting words). We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the User’s Manual and the manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country it is sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments are generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians, etc.) and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other languages are requested we try to provide them translated copies fairly quickly. It’s very costly , too. Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the US. Classes are in English Only. The other Brian From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the user documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user manuals to the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible using symbols only is an economical option. One exception to using just symbols might be in certain industries where using an ANSI/IEC compliant labeling system is required. In this case some verbiage is required. The text should simply describe the problem and how to avoid it. Nothing more. Proper use of the keywords Danger, Warning, and Caution are also essential. Since overstating the hazard is not advisable. All the best, Doug From: Brian Gregory Sent: Friday, May 1,
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
This is what we are seeing going on in Europe. Ever since that Mushroom Farm was fined for the injured employee, some companies in Europe are afraid of a similar fate. Laboratory Equipment used in a laboratory environment traditionally has work related risks not associated with other job environments, such as working with glass tubes, chemicals, hot surfaces, open flame, cold materials, moving parts, etc.. Though manufacturers of ISM equipment can Self Declare under the CE Marking Scheme, for reassurance, some customers are seeking 3rd party testing. Such test houses lack the ability to perform a proper Risk Assessment at a customer site so anything they are unable to test is listed on their test reports as a Non-Compliance. 3rd party labs also like to impose their own interpretation to the requirements. Since the 3rd party lab is not our customer, we cannot communicate with them directly. Plus, all communications has to be translated into their language (French in our most recent case). So we have to work through our customer who is completely ignorant of product safety and regulatory compliance in every way. We have sent test reports, risk assessments, test data, etc. but nothing seems to satisfy them. It is costing our company a small fortune to address these Non-Issues in our opinion. Meanwhile, our customer is afraid to turn on our product in fear of being fined if an employee is injured using it because it has English Text on the warning label. Crazy. I know this is an extreme case but we have had three such cases in the last year. We are considering getting our products Certified by a European test lab. Do you think this would eliminate the 3rd party on-sight testing? We have a good relationship with a local TUV:SUD office. What do you think? Would this help? In the meantime, we are trying to remove all (or most all) English text from our products utilizing symbols, graphics, acronyms and abbreviations where possible. Translated manuals, software, and DoC are provided at the time of setup. I’m not sure what we can do about 3rd party testing’s inability to perform a proper risk assessment on site unless getting a certification would help. Are others out there having similar issues? Thanks for listening. Sorry if you have heard my yammering before. We have meetings setup next week with our European counterparts to find workable solutions. The input I have received from this Email Group has been most helpful. Thanks. The Other Brian From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net] Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 4:25 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Hello again, Brian; It sure does sound to me like you've done your basic diligence; are the ANSI compliant symbols any different from the JIT compliant symbols? Even when I was with an NRTL/NB organization, I was often irked by standards requirements that were not requested or considered useful by actual customers. That being said, I've got the feeling that an informed answer would require a fairly detailed account of getting dinged in Europe Regards, Brian Gregory [Colorado] 720-450-4933 -- Original Message -- From: Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.commailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 18:15:40 + Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so we switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few years ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the labels with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we sold in. This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our sales offices in Europe but we don’t know what country it might be sold in until it is purchased. Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those are fighting words). We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the User’s Manual and the manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country it is sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments are generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians, etc.) and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other languages are requested we try to provide them translated copies fairly quickly. It’s very costly , too. Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the US. Classes are in English Only. The other Brian From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards are requiring a full explanation of symbols
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
In message 64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB026DA221@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local, dated Tue, 5 May 2015, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com writes: Since the 3rd party lab is not our customer, we cannot communicate with them directly. Plus, all communications has to be translated into their language (French in our most recent case). Is there a law against tripartite meetings? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
I have frequently worked with 3rd party test labs and certifiers on behalf of my clients. Occasionally, because of propriety or non-disclosure concerns, they want to see an agent agreement or release form, but this is rare. About half the time, when working with a client, my client's I.T. department will set up a temporary email account for my use which allows me to communicate with other vendors on the company's behalf. This puts all email conversations on their servers and works very well. In any case, I always copy the responsible engineer at the client company to keep them in the loop. Thanks, - doug Douglas Powell http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network. Original Message From: John Woodgate Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 11:04 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: John Woodgate Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains In message 64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB026DA221@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local, dated Tue, 5 May 2015, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com writes: Since the 3rd party lab is not our customer, we cannot communicate with them directly. Plus, all communications has to be translated into their language (French in our most recent case). Is there a law against tripartite meetings? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Hello again, Brian; It sure does sound to me like you've done your basic diligence; are the ANSI compliant symbols any different from the JIT compliant symbols? Even when I was with an NRTL/NB organization, I was often irked by standards requirements that were not requested or considered useful by actual customers. That being said, I've got the feeling that an informed answer would require a fairly detailed account of getting dinged in Europe Regards, Brian Gregory[Colorado] 720-450-4933 -- Original Message -- From: Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 18:15:40 + Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so we switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few years ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the labels with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we sold in. This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our sales offices in Europe but we donrsquo;t know what country it might be sold in until it is purchased. Why donrsquo;t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those are fighting words). We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the Userrsquo;s Manual and the manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country it is sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments are generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians, etc.) and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other languages are requested we try to provide them translated copies fairly quickly. Itrsquo;s very costly , too. Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the US. Classes are in English Only. The other Brian From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the user documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user manuals to the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible using symbols only is an economical option. One exception to using just symbols might be in certain industries where using an ANSI/IEC compliant labeling system is required. lrm;In this case some verbiage is required. The text should simply describe the problem and how to avoid it. Nothing more. Proper use of the keywords Danger, Warning, and Caution are also essential. Since overstating the hazard is not advisable. All the best, Doug From: Brian Gregory Sent: Friday, May 1, 2015 11:31 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: Brian Gregory Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains -- Original Message -- From: Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:54:17 + Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? Wouldnrsquo;t Symbols Only be better? [Colorado Brian here] Symbols ON the equipment are sufficient, and often preferred. John's answer is also correct, that the symbols (even fully JIT-compliant ones) need explained, in all the appropriate languages (as defined by ND's), in the supplied documentation. Any additional needed information can be added at this point by the manufacturer. So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of electrical equipment, then wonrsquo;t the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text? As the Machinery Directive states, ldquo;Information and warnings on the machinery should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable symbols or pictograms.rdquo; Bingo; warnings on the machinery And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesnrsquo;t say that you have to use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or symbols can ldquo;staterdquo; or have the same meaning as text without the concern of the User needing to be able to understand the language of the text. I advise being verbose as possible in the documentation; this can be in digital format, so needn't incur much additional expense. You, as the manufacturer, are now officially on record as directing the end user: DO this, NOT that... etc. Wordy labels can be expensive, and possibly confusing (esp. when many languages get involved); I was always perfectly happy with symbols. CYA, baby The Colorado Brian From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:39 AM
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
-- Original Message -- From: Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:54:17 + Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? Wouldnrsquo;t Symbols Only be better? [Colorado Brian here] Symbols ON the equipment are sufficient, and often preferred. John's answer is also correct, that the symbols (even fully JIT-compliant ones) need explained, in all the appropriate languages (as defined by ND's), in the supplied documentation. Any additional needed information can be added at this point by the manufacturer. So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of electrical equipment, then wonrsquo;t the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text? As the Machinery Directive states, ldquo;Information and warnings on the machinery should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable symbols or pictograms.rdquo; Bingo; warnings on the machinery And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesnrsquo;t say that you have to use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or symbols can ldquo;staterdquo; or have the same meaning as text without the concern of the User needing to be able to understand the language of the text. I advise being verbose as possible in the documentation; this can be in digital format, so needn't incur much additional expense. You, as the manufacturer, are now officially on record as directing the end user: DO this, NOT that... etc. Wordy labels can be expensive, and possibly confusing (esp. when many languages get involved); I was always perfectly happy with symbols. CYA, baby The Colorado Brian From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:39 AM To: Kunde, Brian Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Our NRTL asks for the warning ldquo;No User Serviceable Parts Insiderdquo; when that is the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 60950-1 and EN 60204-1. Of course that needs to be translated into all appropriate languages too. -Dave From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Greetings. We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 61010-1 Ed. 3 standard. Most electrical equipment has at least one warning somewhere visible on the outside of the equipment that states something like, ldquo;Disconnect Power Before Servicingrdquo;. Where does this requirement come from? I see no such requirement in the 61010-1 standard. The 61010-1 does say, ldquo;If the instructions for use state that an OPERATOR is permitted to gain access, using a TOOL, to a part which in NORMAL USE may be HAZARDOUS LIVE, there shall be a warning marking which states that the equipment must be isolated or disconnected from the HAZARDOUS LIVE voltage before access.rdquo; However, if our users do not need to gain access inside our equipment, then I assume such warning is unnecessary. We used to have a warning label on any tool assessable panel that has hazardous voltages behind it. However, I do not see this as a requirement in the 61010-1. In the past, we have had inspectors write us up for not having such labels on all panels with hazardous voltage behind it. Does this requirement come from somewhere else? Are the inspectors wrong? The label we commonly use has the Symbol 12 (hazardous voltage warning) and English Text that states something like, ldquo;Disconnect Power Before Servicingrdquo;. However, when our products are sold into non-English speaking countries, we sometimes get dinged for the English Text; especially in French speaking counties. So, if such a label truly is required, can we get away with only using the Symbol 12?, or can we use a label with a combination of symbols, such as Symbol 12 and maybe the ISO 3864-2 Disconnect Mains Plug symbol? Is text of some kind required or can we just use symbols? Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks to all for your input. The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the user documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user manuals to the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible using symbols only is an economical option.One exception to using just symbols might be in certain industries where using an ANSI/IEC compliant labeling system is required. In this case some verbiage is required. The text should simply describe the problem and how to avoid it. Nothing more. Proper use of the keywords Danger, Warning, and Caution are also essential. Since overstating the hazard is not advisable.All the best, Doug From: Brian GregorySent: Friday, May 1, 2015 11:31 AMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGReply To: Brian GregorySubject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains -- Original Message --From: "Kunde, Brian" brian_ku...@lecotc.comDate: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:54:17 + Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? Wouldn’t Symbols Only be better? [Colorado Brian here] Symbols ON the equipment are sufficient, and often preferred. John's answer is also correct, that the symbols (even fully JIT-compliant ones) need explained, in all the appropriate languages (as defined by ND's), in the supplied documentation. Any additional needed information can be added at this point by the manufacturer. So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of electrical equipment, then won’t the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text? As the Machinery Directive states, “Information and warnings on the machinery should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable symbols or pictograms.” Bingo; warnings on the machinery And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesn’t say that you have to use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or symbols can “state” or have the same meaning as text without the concern of the User needing to be able to understand the language of the text. I advise being verbose as possible in the documentation; this can be in digital format, so needn't incur much additional expense. You, as the manufacturer, are now officially on record as directing the end user: DO this, NOT that... etc. Wordy labels can be expensive, and possibly confusing (esp. when many languages get involved); I was always perfectly happy with symbols. CYA, baby The Colorado Brian From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:39 AM To: Kunde, Brian Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Our NRTL asks for the warning “No User Serviceable Parts Inside” when that is the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 60950-1 and EN 60204-1. Of course that needs to be translated into all appropriate languages too. -Dave From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Greetings. We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 61010-1 Ed. 3 standard. Most electrical equipment has at least one warning somewhere visible on the outside of the equipment that states something like, “Disconnect Power Before Servicing”. Where does this requirement come from? I see no such requirement in the 61010-1 standard. The 61010-1 does say, “If the instructions for use state that an OPERATOR is permitted to gain access, using a TOOL, to a part which in NORMAL USE may be HAZARDOUS LIVE, there shall be a warning marking which states that the equipment must be isolated or disconnected from the HAZARDOUS LIVE voltage before access.” However, if our users do not need to gain access inside our equipment, then I assume such warning is unnecessary. We used to have a warning label on any tool assessable panel that has hazardous voltages behind it. However, I do not see this as a requirement in the 61010-1. In the past, we have had inspectors write us up for not having such labels on all panels with hazardous voltage behind it. Does this requirement come from somewhere else? Are the inspectors wrong? The label we commonly use has the Symbol 12 (hazardous voltage warning) and English Text that states something like, “Disconnect Power Before Servicing”. However
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
One that can help with translation costs is to keep the user documents only to the essential information. This is generally outlined in the safety standard. In addition, any conditions of use for safety and EMC. Instruments destined for the scientific community often have tutorial information included in the user manuals. But this is generqlly not information required for safe installation, operation, cleaning, etc. At better than $5,000 per language this can result in significant savings. Doug From: Kunde, BrianSent: Friday, May 1, 2015 12:15 PMTo: dougp01; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: RE: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so we switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few years ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the labels with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we sold in. This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our sales offices in Europe but we don’t know what country it might be sold in until it is purchased. Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those are fighting words). We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the User’s Manual and the manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country it is sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments are generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians, etc.) and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other languages are requested we try to provide them translated copies fairly quickly. It’s very costly , too. Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the US. Classes are in English Only. The other Brian From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the user documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user manuals to the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible using symbols only is an economical option. One exception to using just symbols might be in certain industries where using an ANSI/IEC compliant labeling system is required. In this case some verbiage is required. The text should simply describe the problem and how to avoid it. Nothing more. Proper use of the keywords Danger, Warning, and Caution are also essential. Since overstating the hazard is not advisable. All the best, Doug From: Brian Gregory Sent: Friday, May 1, 2015 11:31 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: Brian Gregory Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains -- Original Message -- From: "Kunde, Brian" brian_ku...@lecotc.com Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:54:17 + Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? Wouldn’t Symbols Only be better? [Colorado Brian here] Symbols ON the equipment are sufficient, and often preferred. John's answer is also correct, that the symbols (even fully JIT-compliant ones) need explained, in all the appropriate languages (as defined by ND's), in the supplied documentation. Any additional needed information can be added at this point by the manufacturer. So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of electrical equipment, then won’t the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text? As the Machinery Directive states, “Information and warnings on the machinery should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable symbols or pictograms.” Bingo; warnings on the machinery And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesn’t say that you have to use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or symbols can “state” or have the same meaning as text without the concern of the User needing to be able to understand the language of the text. I advise being verbose as possible in the documentation; this can be in digital format, so needn't incur much additional expense. You, as the manufacturer, are now
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so we switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few years ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the labels with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we sold in. This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our sales offices in Europe but we don’t know what country it might be sold in until it is purchased. Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those are fighting words). We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the User’s Manual and the manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country it is sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments are generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians, etc.) and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other languages are requested we try to provide them translated copies fairly quickly. It’s very costly , too. Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the US. Classes are in English Only. The other Brian From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the user documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user manuals to the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible using symbols only is an economical option. One exception to using just symbols might be in certain industries where using an ANSI/IEC compliant labeling system is required. In this case some verbiage is required. The text should simply describe the problem and how to avoid it. Nothing more. Proper use of the keywords Danger, Warning, and Caution are also essential. Since overstating the hazard is not advisable. All the best, Doug From: Brian Gregory Sent: Friday, May 1, 2015 11:31 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: Brian Gregory Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains -- Original Message -- From: Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.commailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:54:17 + Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? Wouldn’t Symbols Only be better? [Colorado Brian here] Symbols ON the equipment are sufficient, and often preferred. John's answer is also correct, that the symbols (even fully JIT-compliant ones) need explained, in all the appropriate languages (as defined by ND's), in the supplied documentation. Any additional needed information can be added at this point by the manufacturer. So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of electrical equipment, then won’t the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text? As the Machinery Directive states, “Information and warnings on the machinery should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable symbols or pictograms.” Bingo; warnings on the machinery And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesn’t say that you have to use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or symbols can “state” or have the same meaning as text without the concern of the User needing to be able to understand the language of the text. I advise being verbose as possible in the documentation; this can be in digital format, so needn't incur much additional expense. You, as the manufacturer, are now officially on record as directing the end user: DO this, NOT that... etc. Wordy labels can be expensive, and possibly confusing (esp. when many languages get involved); I was always perfectly happy with symbols. CYA, baby The Colorado Brian From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:39 AM To: Kunde, Brian Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Our NRTL asks for the warning “No User Serviceable Parts Inside” when that is the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 60950-1 and EN 60204-1. Of course that needs to be translated into all appropriate languages too. -Dave From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Greetings. We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 61010-1 Ed. 3 standard. Most electrical equipment has at least one
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
In message 64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB026DA0A4@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local, dated Fri, 1 May 2015, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com writes: Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those are fighting words). It didn't really; everyone is supposed to know Mandarin but there are many languages actually spoken. And actively stopping people speaking the language they want to is a recipe for resentment, even terrorism, e.g. in the Basque country and Catalonia, and in past times even in Wales and Ireland. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Both these are fairly standard disclaimers: they are not required by the standard, but they allow the NRTL to establish that risk of access to energized to parts in the end application is minimized. They are words I used often in my technical, internal, reviews when establishing that exposure to potential hazards have been addressed. Sometimes, when risk was more elevated (higher voltage, easy access to device internals via battery compartments), I would require my customers, if they wanted their approval label, to beef up their labeling. Regards,Brian Gregory 720-450-4933 -- Original Message -- From: Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 14:39:09 + Our NRTL asks for the warning ldquo;No User Serviceable Parts Insiderdquo; when that is the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 60950-1 and EN 60204-1. Of course that needs to be translated into all appropriate languages too. -Dave From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Greetings. We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 61010-1 Ed. 3 standard. Most electrical equipment has at least one warning somewhere visible on the outside of the equipment that states something like, ldquo;Disconnect Power Before Servicingrdquo;. Where does this requirement come from? I see no such requirement in the 61010-1 standard. The 61010-1 does say, ldquo;If the instructions for use state that an OPERATOR is permitted to gain access, using a TOOL, to a part which in NORMAL USE may be HAZARDOUS LIVE, there shall be a warning marking which states that the equipment must be isolated or disconnected from the HAZARDOUS LIVE voltage before access.rdquo; However, if our users do not need to gain access inside our equipment, then I assume such warning is unnecessary. We used to have a warning label on any tool assessable panel that has hazardous voltages behind it. However, I do not see this as a requirement in the 61010-1. In the past, we have had inspectors write us up for not having such labels on all panels with hazardous voltage behind it. Does this requirement come from somewhere else? Are the inspectors wrong? The label we commonly use has the Symbol 12 (hazardous voltage warning) and English Text that states something like, ldquo;Disconnect Power Before Servicingrdquo;. However, when our products are sold into non-English speaking countries, we sometimes get dinged for the English Text; especially in French speaking counties. So, if such a label truly is required, can we get away with only using the Symbol 12?, or can we use a label with a combination of symbols, such as Symbol 12 and maybe the ISO 3864-2 Disconnect Mains Plug symbol? Is text of some kind required or can we just use symbols? Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks to all for your input. The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? Wouldn't Symbols Only be better? John, good point. I hate battling issues with AHJs. We always put at least one such warning label on our instruments just to satisfy them. Dave, I'm not as familiar with the 60950-1 and 60204-1, but since would product is clearly laboratory equipment these standards should not apply. But I am familiar with Inspectors carrying over requirements from one category of products to another. So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of electrical equipment, then won't the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text? As the Machinery Directive states, Information and warnings on the machinery should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable symbols or pictograms. And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesn't say that you have to use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or symbols can state or have the same meaning as text without the concern of the User needing to be able to understand the language of the text. I think we should have a symbol or symbols that satisfies the requirements without text that all authorities can agree on. The Other Brian From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:39 AM To: Kunde, Brian Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Our NRTL asks for the warning No User Serviceable Parts Inside when that is the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 60950-1 and EN 60204-1. Of course that needs to be translated into all appropriate languages too. -Dave From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Greetings. We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 61010-1 Ed. 3 standard. Most electrical equipment has at least one warning somewhere visible on the outside of the equipment that states something like, Disconnect Power Before Servicing. Where does this requirement come from? I see no such requirement in the 61010-1 standard. The 61010-1 does say, If the instructions for use state that an OPERATOR is permitted to gain access, using a TOOL, to a part which in NORMAL USE may be HAZARDOUS LIVE, there shall be a warning marking which states that the equipment must be isolated or disconnected from the HAZARDOUS LIVE voltage before access. However, if our users do not need to gain access inside our equipment, then I assume such warning is unnecessary. We used to have a warning label on any tool assessable panel that has hazardous voltages behind it. However, I do not see this as a requirement in the 61010-1. In the past, we have had inspectors write us up for not having such labels on all panels with hazardous voltage behind it. Does this requirement come from somewhere else? Are the inspectors wrong? The label we commonly use has the Symbol 12 (hazardous voltage warning) and English Text that states something like, Disconnect Power Before Servicing. However, when our products are sold into non-English speaking countries, we sometimes get dinged for the English Text; especially in French speaking counties. So, if such a label truly is required, can we get away with only using the Symbol 12?, or can we use a label with a combination of symbols, such as Symbol 12 and maybe the ISO 3864-2 Disconnect Mains Plug symbol? Is text of some kind required or can we just use symbols? Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks to all for your input. The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.orgmailto:sdoug...@ieee.org Mike
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
In message 64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB026D9EDA@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local, dated Wed, 29 Apr 2015, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com writes: So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of electrical equipment, then won?t the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text? The meanings of critical symbols should be explained in the manual in an acceptable language. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Greetings. We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 61010-1 Ed. 3 standard. Most electrical equipment has at least one warning somewhere visible on the outside of the equipment that states something like, Disconnect Power Before Servicing. Where does this requirement come from? I see no such requirement in the 61010-1 standard. The 61010-1 does say, If the instructions for use state that an OPERATOR is permitted to gain access, using a TOOL, to a part which in NORMAL USE may be HAZARDOUS LIVE, there shall be a warning marking which states that the equipment must be isolated or disconnected from the HAZARDOUS LIVE voltage before access. However, if our users do not need to gain access inside our equipment, then I assume such warning is unnecessary. We used to have a warning label on any tool assessable panel that has hazardous voltages behind it. However, I do not see this as a requirement in the 61010-1. In the past, we have had inspectors write us up for not having such labels on all panels with hazardous voltage behind it. Does this requirement come from somewhere else? Are the inspectors wrong? The label we commonly use has the Symbol 12 (hazardous voltage warning) and English Text that states something like, Disconnect Power Before Servicing. However, when our products are sold into non-English speaking countries, we sometimes get dinged for the English Text; especially in French speaking counties. So, if such a label truly is required, can we get away with only using the Symbol 12?, or can we use a label with a combination of symbols, such as Symbol 12 and maybe the ISO 3864-2 Disconnect Mains Plug symbol? Is text of some kind required or can we just use symbols? Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks to all for your input. The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Our NRTL asks for the warning No User Serviceable Parts Inside when that is the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 60950-1 and EN 60204-1. Of course that needs to be translated into all appropriate languages too. -Dave From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains Greetings. We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 61010-1 Ed. 3 standard. Most electrical equipment has at least one warning somewhere visible on the outside of the equipment that states something like, Disconnect Power Before Servicing. Where does this requirement come from? I see no such requirement in the 61010-1 standard. The 61010-1 does say, If the instructions for use state that an OPERATOR is permitted to gain access, using a TOOL, to a part which in NORMAL USE may be HAZARDOUS LIVE, there shall be a warning marking which states that the equipment must be isolated or disconnected from the HAZARDOUS LIVE voltage before access. However, if our users do not need to gain access inside our equipment, then I assume such warning is unnecessary. We used to have a warning label on any tool assessable panel that has hazardous voltages behind it. However, I do not see this as a requirement in the 61010-1. In the past, we have had inspectors write us up for not having such labels on all panels with hazardous voltage behind it. Does this requirement come from somewhere else? Are the inspectors wrong? The label we commonly use has the Symbol 12 (hazardous voltage warning) and English Text that states something like, Disconnect Power Before Servicing. However, when our products are sold into non-English speaking countries, we sometimes get dinged for the English Text; especially in French speaking counties. So, if such a label truly is required, can we get away with only using the Symbol 12?, or can we use a label with a combination of symbols, such as Symbol 12 and maybe the ISO 3864-2 Disconnect Mains Plug symbol? Is text of some kind required or can we just use symbols? Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks to all for your input. The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.orgmailto:sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
In message 64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB026D9E4C@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local, dated Wed, 29 Apr 2015, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com writes: Any suggestions or recommendations? When you have to deal with AHJs who make demands that are not supported by relevant standards, you can either argue and try to win, or go along with the demands. You choose. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
