RE: Question on internal ESD testing
Jack, We also make large products and I insist on ESD testing every place an operator or maintainer can get to. I test in 2kV increments to 16 kV. There are even times when I will go beyond that, like testing the media path (we move polyester film around) to see what happens or to solve specific problems. Tedious, maybe. But cost effective in the long run. Scott s_doug...@ecrm.com -Original Message- From: jack.c...@cax.usa.xerox.com [SMTP:jack.c...@cax.usa.xerox.com] Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 4:54 PM To: gra...@louisville.stortek.com Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; jack.c...@cax.usa.xerox.com Subject:RE: Question on internal ESD testing Charles, This is a contentious subject for us due to the time it takes to thoroughly test a large product, so I'd be interested in hearing other's opinions and practices. A scenario where ESD can cause a genuine problem (in our business) is when someone walks across a room to add paper to a printer tray. In some machines, the unit will be in standby mode. In others, it may continue printing from a different tray or cabinet. In either case, a discharge to the internal metal parts of the paper tray could conceivably cause problems we would consider failures (and have). Jack Cook EMC Engineer, Xerox Corp. jack.c...@cax.usa.xerox.com (310)333-5214 -Original Message- From: Grasso, Charles (Chaz) [mailto:gra...@louisville.stortek.com] Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 9:35 AM To: 'EMC Group' Subject: Question on internal ESD testing Hello, Does anyone in this august group apply ESD discharges INTERNAL to a product as required by EN55024. I consider this just a tad egregious - don't you? Thank you Charles Grasso Advisory Engineer StorageTek 2270Sth 88th Street Louisville CO 80027 M/S 4247. Tel:303-673-2908 Fax:303-661-7115 email:gra...@louisville.stortek.com Web Site: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r5/denver/rockymountainemc/ - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: Question on internal ESD testing
Jack,
I also remember instances of a charge being developed internally from the
movement of paper along the "paper-path" of the copier. At that time I
utilized internal ESD discharges.
Henry E. Green
Gateway
Regulatory Compliance
-Original Message-
From: Cook, Jack [mailto:jack.c...@cax.usa.xerox.com]
Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 3:54 PM
To: 'Grasso, Charles (Chaz)'
Cc: 'EMC-PSTC'; Cook, Jack
Subject: RE: Question on internal ESD testing
Charles,
This is a contentious subject for us due to the time it
takes to thoroughly
test a large product, so I'd be interested in hearing
other's opinions and
practices.
A scenario where ESD can cause a genuine problem (in our
business) is when
someone walks across a room to add paper to a printer tray.
In some
machines, the unit will be in standby mode. In others, it
may continue
printing from a different tray or cabinet. In either case,
a discharge to
the internal metal parts of the paper tray could conceivably
cause problems
we would consider failures (and have).
Jack Cook
EMC Engineer,
Xerox Corp.
jack.c...@cax.usa.xerox.com
(310)333-5214
-Original Message-
From: Grasso, Charles (Chaz)
[mailto:gra...@louisville.stortek.com]
Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 9:35 AM
To: 'EMC Group'
Subject: Question on internal ESD testing
Hello,
Does anyone in this august group apply ESD discharges
INTERNAL
to a product as required by EN55024.
I consider this just a tad egregious - don't you?
Thank you
Charles Grasso
Advisory Engineer
StorageTek
2270Sth 88th Street
Louisville CO 80027 M/S 4247.
Tel:303-673-2908
Fax:303-661-7115
email:gra...@louisville.stortek.com
Web Site:
http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r5/denver/rockymountainemc/
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RE: Question on internal ESD testing
Charles, This is a contentious subject for us due to the time it takes to thoroughly test a large product, so I'd be interested in hearing other's opinions and practices. A scenario where ESD can cause a genuine problem (in our business) is when someone walks across a room to add paper to a printer tray. In some machines, the unit will be in standby mode. In others, it may continue printing from a different tray or cabinet. In either case, a discharge to the internal metal parts of the paper tray could conceivably cause problems we would consider failures (and have). Jack Cook EMC Engineer, Xerox Corp. jack.c...@cax.usa.xerox.com (310)333-5214 -Original Message- From: Grasso, Charles (Chaz) [mailto:gra...@louisville.stortek.com] Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 9:35 AM To: 'EMC Group' Subject: Question on internal ESD testing Hello, Does anyone in this august group apply ESD discharges INTERNAL to a product as required by EN55024. I consider this just a tad egregious - don't you? Thank you Charles Grasso Advisory Engineer StorageTek 2270Sth 88th Street Louisville CO 80027 M/S 4247. Tel:303-673-2908 Fax:303-661-7115 email:gra...@louisville.stortek.com Web Site: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r5/denver/rockymountainemc/ - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: Question on internal ESD testing
Is it reasonable to say that internal ESD testing should be performed in "casual access" areas as opposed to "user maintenance areas"? With PCs (for example) being designed for user service, one would have to expect these "service persons" to follow ESD maintenance procedures. Adding RAM, or functionality obviously reaches a point at which "user service" would not allow for ESD compliance. This could get a little gray in my opinion. Rick Busche Senior Engineer Evans & Sutherland -Original Message- From: Jim Hulbert [mailto:hulbe...@pb.com] Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 12:55 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject:Question on internal ESD testing Egregious? Not necessarily. For our products, we will discharge to internal parts that the user can come into contact with during normal operation or maintenance. For example, if the user is expected to open a cover to change an ink cartridge, remove a paper jam, or perform some other routine procedure, then we would discharge to the areas exposed to the operator when the cover is open. However, we would NOT discharge to an internal area that is not normally accessed by the operator, such as a cover that is only expected to be removed by a qualified service or repair person. Note that EN 55024 also states specifically that you are not expected to discharge to exposed connector pins. I guess that would, in fact, be egregious. Jim Hulbert Senior Engineer - EMC Pitney Bowes -- Forwarded by Jim Hulbert/MSD/US/PBI on 08/13/99 02:55 PM --- "Grasso, Charles (Chaz)" on 08/13/99 12:34:33 PM Please respond to "Grasso, Charles (Chaz)" To: "'EMC Group'" cc:(bcc: Jim Hulbert/MSD/US/PBI) Subject: Question on internal ESD testing Hello, Does anyone in this august group apply ESD discharges INTERNAL to a product as required by EN55024. I consider this just a tad egregious - don't you? Thank you Charles Grasso Advisory Engineer StorageTek 2270Sth 88th Street Louisville CO 80027 M/S 4247. Tel:303-673-2908 Fax:303-661-7115 email:gra...@louisville.stortek.com Web Site: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r5/denver/rockymountainemc/ - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: Question on internal ESD testing
Charles Any point that is accessible during either normal operation, or regular maintenance by an untrained person, is considered to be at risk due to an ESD event.(i.e. if the operator is required to change a ribbon then exposed areas should not be ESD sensitive, otherwise make it a service call). Trained service personnel and specially trained operators are not considered to be an ESD hazard, as it is assumed that they use ESD prevention practices.. John Mowbray > -Original Message- > From: Grasso, Charles (Chaz) [SMTP:gra...@louisville.stortek.com] > Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 12:35 PM > To: 'EMC Group' > Subject: Question on internal ESD testing > > > Hello, > > Does anyone in this august group apply ESD discharges INTERNAL > to a product as required by EN55024. > > I consider this just a tad egregious - don't you? > > Thank you > Charles Grasso > Advisory Engineer > StorageTek > 2270Sth 88th Street > Louisville CO 80027 M/S 4247. > Tel:303-673-2908 > Fax:303-661-7115 > email:gra...@louisville.stortek.com > Web Site: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r5/denver/rockymountainemc/ > > > > > - > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the > quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, > jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). > - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: Question on internal ESD testing
Chaz, I think it depends on your product and how your customers will be using your equipment (due-diligence). To answer your question, YES, we do test internally. You know me; I enjoy everything in excess. I have never been one that has been satisfied testing only to the limit. If you test only one product to pass the requirements, where is your confidence? You either need to test more than one sample or test to a higher standard, only then can you have a level of confidence that your product truly passes the "minimum requirements." I have already spoken with your partner in crime (Monrad) and am considering a joint effort to analyze the statistics of ESD and what a product can really expect to see in a lifetime. To this end, I would like to ask the group a question. I have heard that IBM (and possibly others) has done studies on this exact subject. Does anyone have knowledge of were this information can be found? Kevin J. Hight -- Regulatory Compliance Engineer Exabyte Corporation 1777 Exposition Drive, Building #7 Boulder, Colorado 80301 Phone: 303-417-5534; Fax: 303-417-5710 Pager: 303-855-7029; Email: kev...@exabyte.com -Original Message- From: Grasso, Charles (Chaz) [mailto:gra...@louisville.stortek.com] Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 10:35 AM To: 'EMC Group' Subject: Question on internal ESD testing Hello, Does anyone in this august group apply ESD discharges INTERNAL to a product as required by EN55024. I consider this just a tad egregious - don't you? Thank you Charles Grasso Advisory Engineer StorageTek 2270Sth 88th Street Louisville CO 80027 M/S 4247. Tel:303-673-2908 Fax:303-661-7115 email:gra...@louisville.stortek.com Web Site: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r5/denver/rockymountainemc/ - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
