RE: Use of ground fault detectors in hospitals
Pat -
Relevant document is IEC-60364-7-710 Electrical Installations of Buildings -
Medical Locations, (which in the UK have been adopted under guidance notes
subsidiary to the IEE Wiring 'Regulations').
Use of RCDs is restricted in medical environments, precisely because of
nuisance tripping to critical equipment - where 'nuisance ' tripping could
have serious if not fatal consequences for the patient.
Use of RCDs in 'Group-2' medical locations (such as operating theatres) is
restricted to particular specified circuits (such as those for X-ray units or
plant rated 5kVA) -Otherwise they should not be used.
(I've no idea what the practice is in Hong Kong).
Ged Dean
Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
pat.law...@slpower.com
Sent: 05 June 2008 01:28
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Use of ground fault detectors in hospitals
Hi listmembers:
We have a customer in Hong Kong who is reporting problems using their
equipment in an operating room. Specifically, the GFI/RCCB/RCD (ground fault
detector) installed in the operating room trips, shutting off power to the
system. After resetting the GFI, the equipment can be started successfully.
My question concerns the use of GFIs in operating rooms. This sounds unusual
to me, and I'd think the GFI would have to meet many of the same requirements
that medical equipment needs to meet (e.g., IEC60601-1 approval). Is anyone
familiar with either requirements or prohibitions on the use of GFIs in an
operating room?
Pat Lawler
EMC Engineer
SL Power Electronics Corp. - --
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Re: Use of ground fault detectors in hospitals
In message ofd7aa47d6.6923b69b-on8825745f.00010d6a-8825745f.00028...@slpower.com, dated Wed, 4 Jun 2008, pat.law...@slpower.com writes: We have a customer in Hong Kong who is reporting problems using their equipment in an operating room. Specifically, the GFI/RCCB/RCD (ground fault detector) installed in the operating room trips, shutting off power to the system. After resetting the GFI, the equipment can be started successfully. It could be tripping due to RF interference from e.g. electrocautery instruments. My question concerns the use of GFIs in operating rooms. This sounds unusual to me, and I'd think the GFI would have to meet many of the same requirements that medical equipment needs to meet (e.g., IEC60601-1 approval). Well, presumably it doesn't come anywhere near the patient, so 60601 may not be relevant. Is anyone familiar with either requirements or prohibitions on the use of GFIs in an operating room? I don't see anything about prohibition in BS 7671 (IEE Regulations), which probably still applies in Hong Kong. In fact, the new 17th edition wants them sprinkled liberally around all installations. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Use of ground fault detectors in hospitals
Pat, Whenever I see a post regarding GFIs, I always reply with the same advice. Have the hospital change out their GFIs with ones that meet the latest requirements, which in the US is the 2006 versions. Older GFIs were very susceptible to RF noise and was prone to false tripping. We have had numerous customers complain about our products tripping their GFIs. We change out their GFIs with the 2006 versions and the problem goes away every time. Good luck. The Other Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of pat.law...@slpower.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 8:28 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Use of ground fault detectors in hospitals Hi listmembers: We have a customer in Hong Kong who is reporting problems using their equipment in an operating room. Specifically, the GFI/RCCB/RCD (ground fault detector) installed in the operating room trips, shutting off power to the system. After resetting the GFI, the equipment can be started successfully. My question concerns the use of GFIs in operating rooms. This sounds unusual to me, and I'd think the GFI would have to meet many of the same requirements that medical equipment needs to meet (e.g., IEC60601-1 approval). Is anyone familiar with either requirements or prohibitions on the use of GFIs in an operating room? Pat Lawler EMC Engineer SL Power Electronics Corp. - -- - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc _ LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Use of ground fault detectors in hospitals
In message 0ed66cd2c9bd0a459d54fb9119a60567aae...@mailserver.lecotc.com, dated Thu, 5 Jun 2008, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com writes: Whenever I see a post regarding GFIs, I always reply with the same advice. Have the hospital change out their GFIs with ones that meet the latest requirements, which in the US is the 2006 versions. Older GFIs were very susceptible to RF noise and was prone to false tripping. We have had numerous customers complain about our products tripping their GFIs. We change out their GFIs with the 2006 versions and the problem goes away every time. Sound advice, but Hong Kong probably still uses the British wiring code BS 7671, and RCCBs. US GFIs wouldn't be acceptable, even if in fact they would work at 240 V. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Use of ground fault detectors in hospitals
John, I didn't think about that. Are GFI commonly used in the UK and Hong Kong or just in hospitals? Have the 230VAC GFIs in the UK evolved over the years from a once unreliable nightmare to a very reliable must-have device like in the US? I have never heard any reports of GFI tripping with our products in the UK or Hong Kong, but being in the US, maybe any such problems are handled by our installation teams. TOB From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:00 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Use of ground fault detectors in hospitals In message 0ed66cd2c9bd0a459d54fb9119a60567aae...@mailserver.lecotc.com, dated Thu, 5 Jun 2008, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com writes: Whenever I see a post regarding GFIs, I always reply with the same advice. Have the hospital change out their GFIs with ones that meet the latest requirements, which in the US is the 2006 versions. Older GFIs were very susceptible to RF noise and was prone to false tripping. We have had numerous customers complain about our products tripping their GFIs. We change out their GFIs with the 2006 versions and the problem goes away every time. Sound advice, but Hong Kong probably still uses the British wiring code BS 7671, and RCCBs. US GFIs wouldn't be acceptable, even if in fact they would work at 240 V. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Use of ground fault detectors in hospitals
In message 0ed66cd2c9bd0a459d54fb9119a60567aae...@mailserver.lecotc.com, dated Thu, 5 Jun 2008, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com writes: I didn't think about that. Are GFI commonly used in the UK and Hong Kong or just in hospitals? Our devices are called 'Residual Current Circuit Breakers' (RCCBs) and are a different species from GFIs, within the same genus probably. They are quite common in UK, under the 16th edition of the IEE Regulations (BS 7671), and the new 17th edition requires many more of them. Have the 230VAC GFIs in the UK evolved over the years from a once unreliable nightmare to a very reliable must-have device like in the US? Yes, they are pretty reliable now. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
