Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

That is the procedure I prefer to follow on our products- try to stick with 
ANSI/ISO text-less pictograms on the product and include the pictogram and 
text/translations in the manuals.   And hope they include the manual in the 
glove box for the rental car.  It gives the co-pilot something to do.

-Dave

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2016 1:06 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

Brian et al,

   This is a non-ending topic – hazard markings on equipment (note 
that WARNING is a specific key-word so I use the term hazard marking).

   It was a detailed discussion at the recent PSES ISPCE meeting in 
Anaheim (check the proceedings) .  The crux of the problem is that symbols are 
not generally understood without a lot of training and exposure/experience.  
The behavioral/human factors folks keep pointing this out and will be called in 
by the lawyers to condemn your markings if they don’t contain the needed 
textual information.  The US/ANSI standard properly implements a defendable 
approach which includes the words along with the pictograms.

   Do you feel comfortable with all of the symbols in the cockpit 
of any imported car?  We’re beginning to learn what they mean as Americans but 
it still is not always clear and difficult to quickly make changes while also 
driving under difficult conditions (how do you do in a rental car taking it out 
in a rainstorm after dark).

   This is a dilemma for companies that ship products worldwide.   
My ongoing recommendation for companies which design for the North American 
market and also ship worldwide is to use ANSI markings which include the 
pictograms then include each marking in the manual as a picture/illustration 
plus include the text in the body of the document in a way that it will be 
translated whenever the manual is translated into another language.

   Hope this helps.

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>

From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net]
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2015 1:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains


Hello again, Brian;

It sure does sound to me like you've done your basic diligence;  are the ANSI 
compliant symbols any different from the JIT compliant symbols?  Even when I 
was with an NRTL/NB organization, I was often irked by standards requirements 
that were not requested or considered useful by actual customers.

That being said, I've got the feeling that an informed answer would require a 
fairly detailed account of "getting dinged in Europe"

 Regards,

Brian Gregory
[Colorado]
720-450-4933


-- Original Message --
From: "Kunde, Brian" mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 18:15:40 +
Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so we 
switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few years 
ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the labels 
with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we sold in. 
This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our sales 
offices in Europe but we don’t know what country it might be sold in until it 
is purchased.

Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those are 
fighting words).

We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the User’s Manual and the 
manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country it is 
sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments are 
generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians, etc.) 
and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other languages 
are requested we try to provide them translated copies fairly quickly. It’s 
very costly , too.

Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the US. 
Classes are in English Only.

The other Brian

From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards 
are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the user 
documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user manuals to 
the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible using symbols 
only is an economical option.

One exception to usin

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[Pete Perkins]

Brian et al,

 

   This is a non-ending topic – hazard markings on equipment
(note that WARNING is a specific key-word so I use the term hazard marking).


 

   It was a detailed discussion at the recent PSES ISPCE meeting
in Anaheim (check the proceedings) .  The crux of the problem is that
symbols are not generally understood without a lot of training and
exposure/experience.  The behavioral/human factors folks keep pointing this
out and will be called in by the lawyers to condemn your markings if they
don’t contain the needed textual information.  The US/ANSI standard properly
implements a defendable approach which includes the words along with the
pictograms.  

 

   Do you feel comfortable with all of the symbols in the
cockpit of any imported car?  We’re beginning to learn what they mean as
Americans but it still is not always clear and difficult to quickly make
changes while also driving under difficult conditions (how do you do in a
rental car taking it out in a rainstorm after dark).  

 

   This is a dilemma for companies that ship products worldwide.
My ongoing recommendation for companies which design for the North American
market and also ship worldwide is to use ANSI markings which include the
pictograms then include each marking in the manual as a picture/illustration
plus include the text in the body of the document in a way that it will be
translated whenever the manual is translated into another language.  

 

   Hope this helps.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net] 
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2015 1:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

 

 

Hello again, Brian; 

 

It sure does sound to me like you've done your basic diligence;  are the
ANSI compliant symbols any different from the JIT compliant symbols?  Even
when I was with an NRTL/NB organization, I was often irked by standards
requirements that were not requested or considered useful by actual
customers.

 

That being said, I've got the feeling that an informed answer would require
a fairly detailed account of "getting dinged in Europe"

 

 Regards,

 

Brian Gregory

[Colorado] 
720-450-4933



-- Original Message --
From: "Kunde, Brian" mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>
>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 18:15:40 +

Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so
we switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few
years ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the
labels with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we
sold in. This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our
sales offices in Europe but we don’t know what country it might be sold in
until it is purchased. 

 

Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those
are fighting words). 

 

We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the User’s Manual and
the manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country
it is sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments
are generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians,
etc.) and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other
languages are requested we try to provide them translated copies fairly
quickly. It’s very costly , too.

 

Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the
US. Classes are in English Only. 


The other Brian

 

From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

 

I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based
standards are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the
user documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user
manuals to the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible
using symbols only is an economical option. 

 

One exception to using just symbols might be in certain industries where
using an ANSI/IEC compliant labeling system is required.  ‎In this case some
verbiage is required. The text should simply describe the problem and how to
avoid it. Nothing more. Proper use of the keywords Danger, Warning, and
Caution are also essential.  Since overstating the hazard is not advisable.

 

All the best, Doug

 

 


From: Brian Gregory

Sent: Friday, May 1, 2015 11:31 AM

To: 

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[dougp01]

I have frequently worked with 3rd party test labs and certifiers on behalf of 
my clients. Occasionally, because of propriety or non-disclosure concerns, they 
want to see an agent agreement or release form, but this is rare.   

About half the time, when working with a client, my client's I.T. department‎ 
will set up a temporary email account for my use which allows me to communicate 
with other vendors on the company's behalf.   This puts all email conversations 
on their servers and works very well. In any case, I always copy the 
responsible engineer at the client company to keep them in the loop.

Thanks, - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01  

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
  Original Message  
From: John Woodgate
Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 11:04 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply To: John Woodgate
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

In message 
<64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB026DA221@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local>, 
dated Tue, 5 May 2015, "Kunde, Brian"  writes:

>Since the 3rd party lab is not our customer, we cannot communicate with 
>them directly. Plus, all communications has to be translated into their 
>language (French in our most recent case).

Is there a law against tripartite meetings?
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher: 
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[John Woodgate]

In message 
<64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB026DA221@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local>, 
dated Tue, 5 May 2015, "Kunde, Brian"  writes:


Since the 3rd party lab is not our customer, we cannot communicate with 
them directly. Plus, all communications has to be translated into their 
language (French in our most recent case).


Is there a law against tripartite meetings?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[Kunde, Brian]

This is what we are seeing going on in Europe.

Ever since that Mushroom Farm was fined for the injured employee, some 
companies in Europe are afraid of a similar fate. Laboratory Equipment used in 
a laboratory environment traditionally has work related risks not associated 
with other job environments, such as working with glass tubes, chemicals, hot 
surfaces, open flame, cold materials, moving parts, etc.. Though manufacturers 
of ISM equipment can Self Declare under the CE Marking Scheme, for reassurance, 
some customers are seeking 3rd party testing. Such test houses lack the ability 
to perform a proper Risk Assessment at a customer site so anything they are 
unable to test is listed on their test reports as a Non-Compliance. 3rd party 
labs also like to impose their own interpretation to the requirements.

Since the 3rd party lab is not our customer, we cannot communicate with them 
directly. Plus, all communications has to be translated into their language 
(French in our most recent case). So we have to work through our customer who 
is completely ignorant of product safety and regulatory compliance in every 
way.  We have sent test reports, risk assessments, test data, etc. but nothing 
seems to satisfy them. It is costing our company a small fortune to address 
these Non-Issues in our opinion. Meanwhile, our customer is afraid to turn on 
our product in fear of being fined if an employee is injured using it because 
it has English Text on the warning label. Crazy.

I know this is an extreme case but we have had three such cases in the last 
year.

We are considering getting our products Certified by a European test lab. Do 
you think this would eliminate the 3rd party on-sight testing?  We have a good 
relationship with a local TUV:SUD office.  What do you think? Would this help?

In the meantime, we are trying to remove all (or most all) English text from 
our products utilizing symbols, graphics, acronyms and abbreviations where 
possible. Translated manuals, software, and DoC are provided at the time of 
setup. I’m not sure what we can do about 3rd party testing’s inability to 
perform a proper risk assessment on site unless getting a certification would 
help.

Are others out there having similar issues?

Thanks for listening. Sorry if you have heard my yammering before. We have 
meetings setup next week with our European counterparts to find workable 
solutions. The input I have received from this Email Group has been most 
helpful. Thanks.

The Other Brian

From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net]
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 4:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains


Hello again, Brian;

It sure does sound to me like you've done your basic diligence;  are the ANSI 
compliant symbols any different from the JIT compliant symbols?  Even when I 
was with an NRTL/NB organization, I was often irked by standards requirements 
that were not requested or considered useful by actual customers.

That being said, I've got the feeling that an informed answer would require a 
fairly detailed account of "getting dinged in Europe"

 Regards,

Brian Gregory
[Colorado]
720-450-4933


-- Original Message --
From: "Kunde, Brian" mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 18:15:40 +
Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so we 
switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few years 
ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the labels 
with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we sold in. 
This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our sales 
offices in Europe but we don’t know what country it might be sold in until it 
is purchased.

Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those are 
fighting words).

We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the User’s Manual and the 
manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country it is 
sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments are 
generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians, etc.) 
and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other languages 
are requested we try to provide them translated copies fairly quickly. It’s 
very costly , too.

Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the US. 
Classes are in English Only.

The other Brian

From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards 
are requiri

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[Brian Gregory]

 Hello again, Brian;  It sure does sound to me like you've done your basic 
diligence;  are the ANSI compliant symbols any different from the JIT compliant 
symbols?  Even when I was with an NRTL/NB organization, I was often irked by 
standards requirements that were not requested or considered useful by actual 
customers. That being said, I've got the feeling that an informed answer would 
require a fairly detailed account of "getting dinged in Europe"  Regards, Brian 
Gregory[Colorado] 
720-450-4933

-- Original Message --
From: "Kunde, Brian" 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 18:15:40 +


Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so we 
switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few years 
ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the labels 
with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we sold in. 
This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our sales 
offices in Europe but we don’t know what country it might be sold in 
until it is purchased. 
 
Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those 
are fighting words). 
 
We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the User’s Manual and 
the manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country it 
is sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments are 
generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians, etc.) 
and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other languages 
are requested we try to provide them translated copies fairly quickly. 
It’s very costly , too.
 
Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the US. 
Classes are in English Only. 

 The other Brian
 
From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
 Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
 
I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards 
are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the user 
documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user manuals to 
the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible using symbols 
only is an economical option. 
 
One exception to using just symbols might be in certain industries where using 
an ANSI/IEC compliant labeling system is required.  ‎In this case some 
verbiage is required. The text should simply describe the problem and how to 
avoid it. Nothing more. Proper use of the keywords Danger, Warning, and Caution 
are also essential.  Since overstating the hazard is not advisable.
 
All the best, Doug

 
 

 
 
From: Brian Gregory
Sent: Friday, May 1, 2015 11:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply To: Brian Gregory
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
 
 
 
-- Original Message --
 From: "Kunde, Brian" 
 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:54:17 +
Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without 
English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? 
Wouldn’t Symbols Only be better? 
 
[Colorado Brian here]  Symbols ON the equipment are sufficient, and often 
preferred.  John's answer is also correct, that the symbols (even fully 
JIT-compliant ones) need explained, in all the appropriate languages (as 
defined by ND's), in the supplied documentation.  Any additional needed 
information can be added at this point by the manufacturer.  
 
 
So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of 
electrical equipment, then won’t the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol 
alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text?  
 
As the Machinery Directive states, “Information and warnings on the 
machinery should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable 
symbols or pictograms.”
 
Bingo;  warnings on the machinery 
 
And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesn’t say that you 
have to use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or 
symbols can “state” or have the same meaning as text without the 
concern of the User needing to be able to understand the language of the text.  
 
I advise being verbose as possible in the documentation;  this can be in 
digital format, so needn't incur much additional expense.  You, as the 
manufacturer, are now officially on record as directing the end user:  DO this, 
NOT that... etc.   Wordy labels can be expensive, and possibly confusing (esp. 
when many languages get involved);  I was always perfectly happy with symbols.
 
CYA, baby 
 
The Colorado Brian
 

  
 
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:39 AM
 To: Kunde, Brian
 Cc:  EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[John Woodgate]

In message 
<64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB026DA0A4@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local>, 
dated Fri, 1 May 2015, "Kunde, Brian"  writes:


Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? 
(Those are fighting words).


It didn't really; everyone is supposed to know Mandarin but there are 
many languages actually spoken. And actively stopping people speaking 
the language they want to is a recipe for resentment, even terrorism, 
e.g.  in the Basque country and Catalonia, and in past times even in 
Wales and Ireland.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[dougp01]

One that can help with translation costs is to keep the user documents only to the essential information. This is generally outlined in the safety standard.   In addition, any conditions of use for safety and EMC.   Instruments destined for the scientific community often have tutorial information included in the user manuals. But this is generqlly not information required for safe installation, operation, cleaning, etc.  At better than $5,000 per language this can result in significant savings.    Doug From: Kunde, BrianSent: Friday, May 1, 2015 12:15 PMTo: dougp01; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: RE: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains






Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so we switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few years
 ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the labels with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we sold in. This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our sales offices in Europe but we don’t
 know what country it might be sold in until it is purchased. 
 
Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those are fighting words).

 
We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the User’s Manual and the manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country it
 is sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments are generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians, etc.) and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other languages are requested we try
 to provide them translated copies fairly quickly. It’s very costly , too.
 
Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the US. Classes are in English Only.


The other Brian
 


From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains


 

I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the user
 documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user manuals to the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible using symbols only is an economical option. 


 


One exception to using just symbols might be in certain industries where using an ANSI/IEC compliant labeling system is required.  ‎In this case some
 verbiage is required. The text should simply describe the problem and how to avoid it. Nothing more. Proper use of the keywords Danger, Warning, and Caution are also essential.  Since overstating the hazard is not advisable.


 


All the best, Doug

















From:
Brian Gregory


Sent:
Friday, May 1, 2015 11:31 AM


To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG


Reply To:
Brian Gregory


Subject:
Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains






 


 


 


-- Original Message --
From: "Kunde, Brian" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:54:17 +

Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? Wouldn’t Symbols Only be better?

 
[Colorado Brian here]  Symbols ON the equipment are sufficient, and often preferred.  John's answer is also correct, that the symbols (even fully JIT-compliant ones) need explained, in all the appropriate
 languages (as defined by ND's), in the supplied documentation.  Any additional needed information can be added at this point by the manufacturer. 

 
 
So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of electrical equipment, then won’t the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text? 

 
As the Machinery Directive states, “Information and warnings on the machinery should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable symbols or pictograms.”
 
Bingo;  warnings on the machinery

 
And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesn’t say that you have to use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or symbols can “state” or have the same meaning as text without
 the concern of the User needing to be able to understand the language of the text. 

 
I advise being verbose as possible in the documentation;  this can be in digital format, so needn't incur much a

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[Kunde, Brian]

Thanks Doug and Colorado Brian. We liked the look of the new ANSI labels so we 
switch over all the warning labels on our products to this style a few years 
ago. But now we are getting dinged in Europe and have to replace the labels 
with symbols only or with the text in the language of the country we sold in. 
This is difficult to do because sometime we ship instruments to our sales 
offices in Europe but we don’t know what country it might be sold in until it 
is purchased.

Why don’t the EU just decide on one language like the Chinese did? (Those are 
fighting words).

We do explain the meaning of our warning symbols in the User’s Manual and the 
manuals are translated into different languages depending on the country it is 
sold and what our customers want. The users of our type of instruments are 
generally well educated (scientists, chemists, engineers, technicians, etc.) 
and most of the time they are happy with English only. But when other languages 
are requested we try to provide them translated copies fairly quickly. It’s 
very costly , too.

Most of our customers send their Users for training at our facility in the US. 
Classes are in English Only.

The other Brian

From: dougp01 [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards 
are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the user 
documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user manuals to 
the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible using symbols 
only is an economical option.

One exception to using just symbols might be in certain industries where using 
an ANSI/IEC compliant labeling system is required.  ‎In this case some verbiage 
is required. The text should simply describe the problem and how to avoid it. 
Nothing more. Proper use of the keywords Danger, Warning, and Caution are also 
essential.  Since overstating the hazard is not advisable.

All the best, Doug




From: Brian Gregory
Sent: Friday, May 1, 2015 11:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Reply To: Brian Gregory
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains




-- Original Message --
From: "Kunde, Brian" mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:54:17 +
Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without 
English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? 
Wouldn’t Symbols Only be better?

[Colorado Brian here]  Symbols ON the equipment are sufficient, and often 
preferred.  John's answer is also correct, that the symbols (even fully 
JIT-compliant ones) need explained, in all the appropriate languages (as 
defined by ND's), in the supplied documentation.  Any additional needed 
information can be added at this point by the manufacturer.


So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of 
electrical equipment, then won’t the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol alone 
meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text?

As the Machinery Directive states, “Information and warnings on the machinery 
should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable symbols or 
pictograms.”

Bingo;  warnings on the machinery

And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesn’t say that you have to 
use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or symbols can 
“state” or have the same meaning as text without the concern of the User 
needing to be able to understand the language of the text.


I advise being verbose as possible in the documentation;  this can be in 
digital format, so needn't incur much additional expense.  You, as the 
manufacturer, are now officially on record as directing the end user:  DO this, 
NOT that... etc.   Wordy labels can be expensive, and possibly confusing (esp. 
when many languages get involved);  I was always perfectly happy with symbols.



CYA, baby



The Colorado Brian




From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:39 AM
To: Kunde, Brian
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

Our NRTL asks for the warning “No User Serviceable Parts Inside”  when that is 
the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 60950-1 and EN 
60204-1.   Of course that needs to be translated into all appropriate languages 
too.

-Dave

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

Greetings.

We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 
61010-1 Ed. 3 standard.

Most electr

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[dougp01]

I agree with Colorado Brian. It seems that more and more, IEC-based standards are requiring a full explanation of symbols and warnings in the user documentation. As it turns out, many clients of mine leave the user manuals to the very last and they are usually very lacking. Where possible using symbols only is an economical option. One exception to using just symbols might be in certain industries where using an ANSI/IEC compliant labeling system is required.  ‎In this case some verbiage is required. The text should simply describe the problem and how to avoid it. Nothing more. Proper use of the keywords Danger, Warning, and Caution are also essential.  Since overstating the hazard is not advisable.All the best, Doug  From: Brian GregorySent: Friday, May 1, 2015 11:31 AMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGReply To: Brian GregorySubject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains 
 
-- Original Message --From: "Kunde, Brian" Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:54:17 +

Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? Wouldn’t Symbols Only be better? 
 
[Colorado Brian here]  Symbols ON the equipment are sufficient, and often preferred.  John's answer is also correct, that the symbols (even fully JIT-compliant ones) need explained, in all the appropriate languages (as defined by ND's), in the supplied documentation.  Any additional needed information can be added at this point by the manufacturer.  
 

So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of electrical equipment, then won’t the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text?  
 
As the Machinery Directive states, “Information and warnings on the machinery should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable symbols or pictograms.”
 
Bingo;  warnings on the machinery 
 
And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesn’t say that you have to use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or symbols can “state” or have the same meaning as text without the concern of the User needing to be able to understand the language of the text.  
 
I advise being verbose as possible in the documentation;  this can be in digital format, so needn't incur much additional expense.  You, as the manufacturer, are now officially on record as directing the end user:  DO this, NOT that... etc.   Wordy labels can be expensive, and possibly confusing (esp. when many languages get involved);  I was always perfectly happy with symbols.
 
CYA, baby 
 
The Colorado Brian
 
 
 


From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]  Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:39 AM To: Kunde, Brian Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains


 
Our NRTL asks for the warning “No User Serviceable Parts Inside”  when that is the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 60950-1 and EN 60204-1.   Of course that needs to be translated into all appropriate languages too.
 
-Dave
 


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]  Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains


 

Greetings.
 
We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 61010-1 Ed. 3 standard.  
 
Most electrical equipment has at least one warning somewhere visible on the outside of the equipment that states something like, “Disconnect Power Before Servicing”. 
Where does this requirement come from? I see no such requirement in the 61010-1 standard.
 
The 61010-1 does say, “If the instructions for use state that an OPERATOR is permitted to gain access, using a TOOL, to a part which
in NORMAL USE may be HAZARDOUS LIVE, there shall be a warning marking which states that the equipment
must be isolated or disconnected from the HAZARDOUS LIVE voltage before access.”
 
However, if our users do not need to gain access inside our equipment, then I assume such warning is unnecessary.
 
We used to have a warning label on any tool assessable panel that has hazardous voltages behind it. However, I do not see this as a requirement in the 61010-1.  In the past, we have had inspectors write us up for not having such labels on all panels with hazardous voltage behind it. Does this requirement come from somewhere else? Are the inspectors wrong?
 
The label we commonly use has the Symbol 12 (hazardous voltage warning) and English Text that states something like, “Disconne

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[Brian Gregory]

  -- Original Message --
From: "Kunde, Brian" 
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:54:17 +


Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without 
English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? 
Wouldn’t Symbols Only be better? 
 
[Colorado Brian here]  Symbols ON the equipment are sufficient, and often 
preferred.  John's answer is also correct, that the symbols (even fully 
JIT-compliant ones) need explained, in all the appropriate languages (as 
defined by ND's), in the supplied documentation.  Any additional needed 
information can be added at this point by the manufacturer.  

 

So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of 
electrical equipment, then won’t the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol 
alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text?  
 
As the Machinery Directive states, “Information and warnings on the 
machinery should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable 
symbols or pictograms.”
 
Bingo;  warnings on the machinery 
 
And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesn’t say that you 
have to use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or 
symbols can “state” or have the same meaning as text without the 
concern of the User needing to be able to understand the language of the text.  
 
I advise being verbose as possible in the documentation;  this can be in 
digital format, so needn't incur much additional expense.  You, as the 
manufacturer, are now officially on record as directing the end user:  DO this, 
NOT that... etc.   Wordy labels can be expensive, and possibly confusing (esp. 
when many languages get involved);  I was always perfectly happy with symbols.

 
CYA, baby 
 
The Colorado Brian
 

  
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:39 AM
 To: Kunde, Brian
 Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: RE: Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
 
Our NRTL asks for the warning “No User Serviceable Parts Inside”  
when that is the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 
60950-1 and EN 60204-1.   Of course that needs to be translated into all 
appropriate languages too.
 
-Dave
 
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
 
Greetings.
 
We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 
61010-1 Ed. 3 standard.  
 
Most electrical equipment has at least one warning somewhere visible on the 
outside of the equipment that states something like, “Disconnect Power 
Before Servicing”. 
Where does this requirement come from? I see no such requirement in the 61010-1 
standard.
 
The 61010-1 does say, “If the instructions for use state that an OPERATOR 
is permitted to gain access, using a TOOL, to a part which
in NORMAL USE may be HAZARDOUS LIVE, there shall be a warning marking which 
states that the equipment
must be isolated or disconnected from the HAZARDOUS LIVE voltage before 
access.”
 
However, if our users do not need to gain access inside our equipment, then I 
assume such warning is unnecessary.
 
We used to have a warning label on any tool assessable panel that has hazardous 
voltages behind it. However, I do not see this as a requirement in the 61010-1. 
 In the past, we have had inspectors write us up for not having such labels on 
all panels with hazardous voltage behind it. Does this requirement come from 
somewhere else? Are the inspectors wrong?
 
The label we commonly use has the Symbol 12 (hazardous voltage warning) and 
English Text that states something like, “Disconnect Power Before 
Servicing”. However, when our products are sold into non-English speaking 
countries, we sometimes get dinged for the English Text; especially in French 
speaking counties.  So, if such a label truly is required, can we get away with 
only using the Symbol 12?, or can we use a label with a combination of symbols, 
such as Symbol 12 and maybe the ISO 3864-2 Disconnect Mains Plug symbol?  Is 
text of some kind required or can we just use symbols?
 
Any suggestions or recommendations? 
 
Thanks to all for your input.
 
The Other Brian
LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. -
 
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:  
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at  
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
f

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[John Woodgate]

In message 
<64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB026D9EDA@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local>, 
dated Wed, 29 Apr 2015, "Kunde, Brian"  writes:


So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside 
of electrical equipment, then won?t the Hazardous Voltage Warning 
symbol alone meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text? 


The meanings of critical symbols should be explained in the manual in an 
acceptable language.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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formats), large files, etc.

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Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[Kunde, Brian]

Brian, thanks for your input. Can the potential hazard be addresses without 
English Text which may be misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the language? 
Wouldn't Symbols Only be better?

John, good point. I hate battling issues with AHJs. We always put at least one 
such warning label on our instruments just to satisfy them.

Dave,  I'm not as familiar with the 60950-1 and 60204-1, but since would 
product is clearly laboratory equipment these standards should not apply. But I 
am familiar with Inspectors carrying over requirements from one category of 
products to another.

So if AHJs, NRTLs, etc. like to see some kind of warning on the outside of 
electrical equipment, then won't the Hazardous Voltage Warning symbol alone 
meet this requirement WITHOUT any Text?

As the Machinery Directive states, "Information and warnings on the machinery 
should preferably be provided in the form of readily understandable
symbols or pictograms."

And in the case given in the 61010-1 standards, it doesn't say that you have to 
use Text, but what the warning marking should state. A symbol or symbols can 
"state" or have the same meaning as text without the concern of the User 
needing to be able to understand the language of the text.

I think we should have a symbol or symbols that satisfies the requirements 
without text that all authorities can agree on.

The Other Brian

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:39 AM
To: Kunde, Brian
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

Our NRTL asks for the warning "No User Serviceable Parts Inside"  when that is 
the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 60950-1 and EN 
60204-1.   Of course that needs to be translated into all appropriate languages 
too.

-Dave

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

Greetings.

We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 
61010-1 Ed. 3 standard.

Most electrical equipment has at least one warning somewhere visible on the 
outside of the equipment that states something like, "Disconnect Power Before 
Servicing".
Where does this requirement come from? I see no such requirement in the 61010-1 
standard.

The 61010-1 does say, "If the instructions for use state that an OPERATOR is 
permitted to gain access, using a TOOL, to a part which
in NORMAL USE may be HAZARDOUS LIVE, there shall be a warning marking which 
states that the equipment
must be isolated or disconnected from the HAZARDOUS LIVE voltage before access."

However, if our users do not need to gain access inside our equipment, then I 
assume such warning is unnecessary.

We used to have a warning label on any tool assessable panel that has hazardous 
voltages behind it. However, I do not see this as a requirement in the 61010-1. 
 In the past, we have had inspectors write us up for not having such labels on 
all panels with hazardous voltage behind it. Does this requirement come from 
somewhere else? Are the inspectors wrong?

The label we commonly use has the Symbol 12 (hazardous voltage warning) and 
English Text that states something like, "Disconnect Power Before Servicing". 
However, when our products are sold into non-English speaking countries, we 
sometimes get dinged for the English Text; especially in French speaking 
counties.  So, if such a label truly is required, can we get away with only 
using the Symbol 12?, or can we use a label with a combination of symbols, such 
as Symbol 12 and maybe the ISO 3864-2 Disconnect Mains Plug symbol?  Is text of 
some kind required or can we just use symbols?

Any suggestions or recommendations?

Thanks to all for your input.

The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mailto

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[Brian Gregory]

  Both these are fairly standard disclaimers:  they are not required by the 
standard, but they allow the NRTL to establish that risk of access to energized 
to parts in the end application is minimized. They are words I used often in my 
technical, internal, reviews when establishing that exposure to potential 
hazards have been addressed.  Sometimes, when risk was more elevated (higher 
voltage, easy access to device internals via battery compartments), I would 
require my customers, if they wanted their approval label, to "beef up" their 
labeling. Regards,Brian Gregory
720-450-4933

-- Original Message --
From: "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 14:39:09 +


Our NRTL asks for the warning “No User Serviceable Parts Inside”  
when that is the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 
60950-1 and EN 60204-1.   Of course that needs to be translated into all 
appropriate languages too.
 
-Dave
 
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains
 
Greetings.
 
We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 
61010-1 Ed. 3 standard.  
 
Most electrical equipment has at least one warning somewhere visible on the 
outside of the equipment that states something like, “Disconnect Power 
Before Servicing”. 
Where does this requirement come from? I see no such requirement in the 61010-1 
standard.
 
The 61010-1 does say, “If the instructions for use state that an OPERATOR 
is permitted to gain access, using a TOOL, to a part which
in NORMAL USE may be HAZARDOUS LIVE, there shall be a warning marking which 
states that the equipment
must be isolated or disconnected from the HAZARDOUS LIVE voltage before 
access.”
 
However, if our users do not need to gain access inside our equipment, then I 
assume such warning is unnecessary.
 
We used to have a warning label on any tool assessable panel that has hazardous 
voltages behind it. However, I do not see this as a requirement in the 61010-1. 
 In the past, we have had inspectors write us up for not having such labels on 
all panels with hazardous voltage behind it. Does this requirement come from 
somewhere else? Are the inspectors wrong?
 
The label we commonly use has the Symbol 12 (hazardous voltage warning) and 
English Text that states something like, “Disconnect Power Before 
Servicing”. However, when our products are sold into non-English speaking 
countries, we sometimes get dinged for the English Text; especially in French 
speaking counties.  So, if such a label truly is required, can we get away with 
only using the Symbol 12?, or can we use a label with a combination of symbols, 
such as Symbol 12 and maybe the ISO 3864-2 Disconnect Mains Plug symbol?  Is 
text of some kind required or can we just use symbols?
 
Any suggestions or recommendations? 
 
Thanks to all for your input.
 
The Other Brian
LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. -
 
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:  
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at  
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
 Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
 List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
 Scott Douglas 
 Mike Cantwell 
For policy questions, send mail to:
 Jim Bacher 
 David Heald 
-
 
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
 Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
 List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
 Scott Douglas 
 Mike Cantwell 
For policy questions, send mail to:
 Jim 

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[John Woodgate]

In message 
<64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB026D9E4C@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local>, 
dated Wed, 29 Apr 2015, "Kunde, Brian"  writes:



Any suggestions or recommendations?


When you have to deal with AHJs who make demands that are not supported 
by relevant standards, you can either argue and try to win, or go along 
with the demands. You choose.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Our NRTL asks for the warning "No User Serviceable Parts Inside"  when that is 
the case but that is relative to products complying with UL/EN 60950-1 and EN 
60204-1.   Of course that needs to be translated into all appropriate languages 
too.

-Dave

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:21 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Warning Label: Disconnect from Mains

Greetings.

We make laboratory equipment designed to the requirements of the IEC/EN/UL/CSA 
61010-1 Ed. 3 standard.

Most electrical equipment has at least one warning somewhere visible on the 
outside of the equipment that states something like, "Disconnect Power Before 
Servicing".
Where does this requirement come from? I see no such requirement in the 61010-1 
standard.

The 61010-1 does say, "If the instructions for use state that an OPERATOR is 
permitted to gain access, using a TOOL, to a part which
in NORMAL USE may be HAZARDOUS LIVE, there shall be a warning marking which 
states that the equipment
must be isolated or disconnected from the HAZARDOUS LIVE voltage before access."

However, if our users do not need to gain access inside our equipment, then I 
assume such warning is unnecessary.

We used to have a warning label on any tool assessable panel that has hazardous 
voltages behind it. However, I do not see this as a requirement in the 61010-1. 
 In the past, we have had inspectors write us up for not having such labels on 
all panels with hazardous voltage behind it. Does this requirement come from 
somewhere else? Are the inspectors wrong?

The label we commonly use has the Symbol 12 (hazardous voltage warning) and 
English Text that states something like, "Disconnect Power Before Servicing". 
However, when our products are sold into non-English speaking countries, we 
sometimes get dinged for the English Text; especially in French speaking 
counties.  So, if such a label truly is required, can we get away with only 
using the Symbol 12?, or can we use a label with a combination of symbols, such 
as Symbol 12 and maybe the ISO 3864-2 Disconnect Mains Plug symbol?  Is text of 
some kind required or can we just use symbols?

Any suggestions or recommendations?

Thanks to all for your input.

The Other Brian

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