RE: Surge Test Performance Criterion
I agree with Jim and Carlos , If the design includes a specification that in case of a surge impulse the equipment is switched off, ok that's fine. It exhibits as specified so full compliance. If I would like to have that power supply in my electronics, that's another question. If that is a good way to protect any electronics, I doubt it, although I am not aware of the nature of the design protected by the supply. I agree too that the surge impulse in it's various level is of no real concern to any PWS designer, most supplies exhibit Crit A for the surge impulse all the time, and nothing of the pulse is seen on the secondary. Please Jim, you made us curious about the specific electronics that need such a protection ;<)) Gert Gremmen ce-test, qualified testing == http://www.cetest.nl Do you know our CE/E mark True type Font ? http://www.cetest.nl/cettf.htm == >-Original Message- >From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf >Of Jim Hulbert >Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 9:08 PM >To: emc-p...@ieee.org >Subject: Surge Test Performance Criterion > > > > > >A product has a switched mode power supply with a current sensing >circuit that >causes the supply to shut down when a surge pulse is applied to >the AC mains in >accordance with EN61000-4-5/IEC1000-4-5. After about 10 minutes, >the supply can >be turned back on and normal operation of the product can be resumed by the >operator. Does this product conform to criterion B of the EN >50082-1 or EN >55024 standards? I believe it does because the sensing circuit is >specifically >designed to protect the product against this kind of >voltage/current surge and >the product operation is fully recoverable by the operator >afterward. However, >I would like to hear how others who do this testing would interpret this. > >Jim Hulbert >Senior Engineer - EMC >Pitney Bowes > > > >- >This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. >To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org >with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the >quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, >jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or >roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). > > - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion
It wasn't done derek because there is no requirement that is mandatory. My humble opinion says voluntary standards don't work as well as they should.. Sometimes it requires a resistor to limit the current going to the switch as it obviously rectifies some of the RF. In some cases a bypass capacitor is required also. on the hot lead to ground. Ralph - Original Message - From: "Derek Walton" To: "Ralph Cameron" Cc: ; "Jim Hulbert" ; Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 3:12 PM Subject: Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion > Ralph, > > if all it takes is a resistor, I wonder why it wasn't done 99% of the > population are stuck with a crap product The idea with CE was that this > shouldn't happen! > > Derek. > > Ralph Cameron wrote: > > > Derek: > > > > You want to locate one of those lights next to a transmitter that is used > > intermittently - the light sequences through LO-Medium-high then turns off > > only to come back on again when the transmitter is keyed. > > > > The AC switching device lacks immunity to RF but it may be easily cured with > > the addition of a single resistor. > > > > Ralph Cameron > > > > EMC Consultant and Suppression of Consumer Electronic Equipment. > > (After sale) > > > > ----- Original Message - > > From: "Derek Walton" > > To: > > Cc: "Jim Hulbert" ; > > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 8:57 AM > > Subject: Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion > > > > > > > > Sorry Carlos, > > > > > > I can't go along with this one. If I'm using my PC here in the USA midwest > > and a > > > storm comes along I don't want my PC shutting itself off every few > > minutes Only > > > been hit directly with two lightning strikes this last 2 years, but during > > a storm > > > you can continuously heat squeaking as the modem is hit, I know the power > > is seeing > > > voltage surges too. I'll have to put a Dranitz on the power just to see > > what kinds > > > of voltage surges arrive The same applies to surges generated by > > motors etc. If > > > every time a motor switches on and my equipment does something, well that > > would have > > > to go back to the store. > > > > > > By the way, I don't expect to find in the small print all sorts of get out > > clauses > > > once I buy something > > > > > > A controlled shut down is there to prevent loss of life, destruction of > > the device, > > > or something as equally bad. > > > > > > By the way, I was back home ( Manchester, England ) last October and > > bought my Mum a > > > light that turns on when you touch any metal part of it, it was CE marked. > > I have a > > > similar light here in the USA, mine's not CE marked. BOTH turn on/off when > > there are > > > voltage transients on the power line. Now you can wrangle all you want, > > but being > > > woken up in the middle of the night because the light turned on when the > > dishwasher > > > began it's Saver Seven ( low cost overnight electricity ) cycle, is not > > acceptable > > > performance! If then manufacturer calls this acceptable performance, then > > perhaps I > > > should call him/her in the middle of the night each time to confirm that > > > opinion...;-) > > > > > > What products do you make again;-))) > > > > > > Derek. > > > > > > > > > During surge > > > > > > carlos.perk...@eu.effem.com wrote: > > > > > > > Jim, > > > > > > > > I agree with you, on the basis that in this case, a complete shut-down > > is a > > > > designed-in function of the product, and the standard says "No > > degradation of > > > > performance or loss of function is allowed below a performance level > > specified > > > > by the manfucturer". You, as the manufacturer, are specifying this > > 'loss of > > > > function'. > > > > > > > > In my mind, all you have to do is make the end user aware that a > > shut-down will > > > > occur when a surge is detected, and you should be OK. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Carlos. > > > > > > > > Please respond to "Jim Hulbert" > > > > > > > > To: emc-p...@ieee.
Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion
Ralph, if all it takes is a resistor, I wonder why it wasn't done 99% of the population are stuck with a crap product The idea with CE was that this shouldn't happen! Derek. Ralph Cameron wrote: > Derek: > > You want to locate one of those lights next to a transmitter that is used > intermittently - the light sequences through LO-Medium-high then turns off > only to come back on again when the transmitter is keyed. > > The AC switching device lacks immunity to RF but it may be easily cured with > the addition of a single resistor. > > Ralph Cameron > > EMC Consultant and Suppression of Consumer Electronic Equipment. > (After sale) > > - Original Message - > From: "Derek Walton" > To: > Cc: "Jim Hulbert" ; > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 8:57 AM > Subject: Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion > > > > > Sorry Carlos, > > > > I can't go along with this one. If I'm using my PC here in the USA midwest > and a > > storm comes along I don't want my PC shutting itself off every few > minutes Only > > been hit directly with two lightning strikes this last 2 years, but during > a storm > > you can continuously heat squeaking as the modem is hit, I know the power > is seeing > > voltage surges too. I'll have to put a Dranitz on the power just to see > what kinds > > of voltage surges arrive The same applies to surges generated by > motors etc. If > > every time a motor switches on and my equipment does something, well that > would have > > to go back to the store. > > > > By the way, I don't expect to find in the small print all sorts of get out > clauses > > once I buy something > > > > A controlled shut down is there to prevent loss of life, destruction of > the device, > > or something as equally bad. > > > > By the way, I was back home ( Manchester, England ) last October and > bought my Mum a > > light that turns on when you touch any metal part of it, it was CE marked. > I have a > > similar light here in the USA, mine's not CE marked. BOTH turn on/off when > there are > > voltage transients on the power line. Now you can wrangle all you want, > but being > > woken up in the middle of the night because the light turned on when the > dishwasher > > began it's Saver Seven ( low cost overnight electricity ) cycle, is not > acceptable > > performance! If then manufacturer calls this acceptable performance, then > perhaps I > > should call him/her in the middle of the night each time to confirm that > > opinion...;-) > > > > What products do you make again;-))) > > > > Derek. > > > > > > During surge > > > > carlos.perk...@eu.effem.com wrote: > > > > > Jim, > > > > > > I agree with you, on the basis that in this case, a complete shut-down > is a > > > designed-in function of the product, and the standard says "No > degradation of > > > performance or loss of function is allowed below a performance level > specified > > > by the manfucturer". You, as the manufacturer, are specifying this > 'loss of > > > function'. > > > > > > In my mind, all you have to do is make the end user aware that a > shut-down will > > > occur when a surge is detected, and you should be OK. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Carlos. > > > > > > Please respond to "Jim Hulbert" > > > > > > To: emc-p...@ieee.org > > > cc: (bcc: Carlos A. Perkins/WIN/Effem) > > > From: "Jim Hulbert" on 12/01/2000 20:08 > > > > > > Subject: Surge Test Performance Criterion > > > > > > A product has a switched mode power supply with a current sensing > circuit that > > > causes the supply to shut down when a surge pulse is applied to the AC > mains in > > > accordance with EN61000-4-5/IEC1000-4-5. After about 10 minutes, the > supply can > > > be turned back on and normal operation of the product can be resumed by > the > > > operator. Does this product conform to criterion B of the EN 50082-1 > or EN > > > 55024 standards? I believe it does because the sensing circuit is > specifically > > > designed to protect the product against this kind of voltage/current > surge and > > > the product operation is fully recoverable by the operator afterward. > However, > > > I would like to hear how others who do this testing would interpret > this. > > &g
Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion
Derek: You want to locate one of those lights next to a transmitter that is used intermittently - the light sequences through LO-Medium-high then turns off only to come back on again when the transmitter is keyed. The AC switching device lacks immunity to RF but it may be easily cured with the addition of a single resistor. Ralph Cameron EMC Consultant and Suppression of Consumer Electronic Equipment. (After sale) - Original Message - From: "Derek Walton" To: Cc: "Jim Hulbert" ; Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 8:57 AM Subject: Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion > > Sorry Carlos, > > I can't go along with this one. If I'm using my PC here in the USA midwest and a > storm comes along I don't want my PC shutting itself off every few minutes Only > been hit directly with two lightning strikes this last 2 years, but during a storm > you can continuously heat squeaking as the modem is hit, I know the power is seeing > voltage surges too. I'll have to put a Dranitz on the power just to see what kinds > of voltage surges arrive The same applies to surges generated by motors etc. If > every time a motor switches on and my equipment does something, well that would have > to go back to the store. > > By the way, I don't expect to find in the small print all sorts of get out clauses > once I buy something > > A controlled shut down is there to prevent loss of life, destruction of the device, > or something as equally bad. > > By the way, I was back home ( Manchester, England ) last October and bought my Mum a > light that turns on when you touch any metal part of it, it was CE marked. I have a > similar light here in the USA, mine's not CE marked. BOTH turn on/off when there are > voltage transients on the power line. Now you can wrangle all you want, but being > woken up in the middle of the night because the light turned on when the dishwasher > began it's Saver Seven ( low cost overnight electricity ) cycle, is not acceptable > performance! If then manufacturer calls this acceptable performance, then perhaps I > should call him/her in the middle of the night each time to confirm that > opinion...;-) > > What products do you make again;-))) > > Derek. > > > During surge > > carlos.perk...@eu.effem.com wrote: > > > Jim, > > > > I agree with you, on the basis that in this case, a complete shut-down is a > > designed-in function of the product, and the standard says "No degradation of > > performance or loss of function is allowed below a performance level specified > > by the manfucturer". You, as the manufacturer, are specifying this 'loss of > > function'. > > > > In my mind, all you have to do is make the end user aware that a shut-down will > > occur when a surge is detected, and you should be OK. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Carlos. > > > > Please respond to "Jim Hulbert" > > > > To: emc-p...@ieee.org > > cc: (bcc: Carlos A. Perkins/WIN/Effem) > > From: "Jim Hulbert" on 12/01/2000 20:08 > > > > Subject: Surge Test Performance Criterion > > > > A product has a switched mode power supply with a current sensing circuit that > > causes the supply to shut down when a surge pulse is applied to the AC mains in > > accordance with EN61000-4-5/IEC1000-4-5. After about 10 minutes, the supply can > > be turned back on and normal operation of the product can be resumed by the > > operator. Does this product conform to criterion B of the EN 50082-1 or EN > > 55024 standards? I believe it does because the sensing circuit is specifically > > designed to protect the product against this kind of voltage/current surge and > > the product operation is fully recoverable by the operator afterward. However, > > I would like to hear how others who do this testing would interpret this. > > > > Jim Hulbert > > Senior Engineer - EMC > > Pitney Bowes > > > > - > > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org > > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the > > quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, > > jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or > > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). > > > > - > > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org > > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the > > quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.c
Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion
Jim, all the power supplies I design are capible of riding through the EN1000-4-5 surge. I would class this as Cat A. Cat B would be if the power supply momentarally ( literally this could imply once the surge has gone ) dropped out, and came back right away on its own. I would expect to see none of the input surge passed through for either Cat A or Cat B. What you describe is Cat C, where something has to be done to get the EUT working again. Derek Walton Jim Hulbert wrote: > A product has a switched mode power supply with a current sensing circuit that > causes the supply to shut down when a surge pulse is applied to the AC mains > in > accordance with EN61000-4-5/IEC1000-4-5. After about 10 minutes, the supply > can > be turned back on and normal operation of the product can be resumed by the > operator. Does this product conform to criterion B of the EN 50082-1 or EN > 55024 standards? I believe it does because the sensing circuit is > specifically > designed to protect the product against this kind of voltage/current surge and > the product operation is fully recoverable by the operator afterward. > However, > I would like to hear how others who do this testing would interpret this. > > Jim Hulbert > Senior Engineer - EMC > Pitney Bowes > > - > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the > quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, > jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: Surge Test Performance Criterion
Hello All, My take on establishing whether a temporary shut down (loss of function) is acceptable is by knowing your customers' or potential customers' requirements, expectations, or at least tolerances. The trick is getting this information. It can be asked directly to customers, covered in requirement specifications from product groups who researched those issues, or may be inferred from specific product standards that are similar to or directly apply to your type of product. Many product standards have immunity requirements that give specific minimum performance criterion. Applying those criterion from similar product standards to your product can indirectly cover expectations of your customer. As for criterion B, I would say no, shut down for ten minutes and then recoverable is criterion C. Hope this helps. Regards, Robert Tims Compliance Engineer Ericsson Messaging Systems Inc. > -Original Message- > From: rehel...@mmm.com [SMTP:rehel...@mmm.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 7:54 AM > To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org > Subject: Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion > > > > > I agree with Carlos. > > The standard says, "This clause gives you a guide for evaluation of the > test results". > It also says, "The variety and diversity of equipment and systems to be > tested makes the task of establishing the effects of surges on equipment > and systems difficult". > It also says, "The test results shall be classified on the basis of the > operating conditions and the functional specifications of the equipment > under test..". > > The standards committees are smart enough to know that they cannot > possibly > write descriptions of test evaluations that would cover every conceivable > piece of equipment ever designed in the past or ever to be designed in the > future, so they provided "guidelines for evaluation". If product > specifications provide different operating conditions and functional > specifications than are provided in the guidelines then testing is > evaluated to the product specifications. > > > > > > > > > carlos.perk...@eu.effem.com on 01/13/2000 01:15:25 AM > > Please respond to carlos.perk...@eu.effem.com > > > To: "Jim Hulbert" > cc: emc-p...@ieee.org (bcc: Robert E. Heller/US-Corporate/3M/US) > Subject: Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion > > > > > > Jim, > > I agree with you, on the basis that in this case, a complete shut-down is > a > designed-in function of the product, and the standard says "No degradation > of > performance or loss of function is allowed below a performance level > specified > by the manfucturer". You, as the manufacturer, are specifying this 'loss > of > function'. > > In my mind, all you have to do is make the end user aware that a shut-down > will > occur when a surge is detected, and you should be OK. > > Cheers, > > Carlos. > > > > > > Please respond to "Jim Hulbert" > > > To: emc-p...@ieee.org > cc: (bcc: Carlos A. Perkins/WIN/Effem) > From: "Jim Hulbert" on 12/01/2000 20:08 > > Subject: Surge Test Performance Criterion > > > > > > > > > A product has a switched mode power supply with a current sensing circuit > that > causes the supply to shut down when a surge pulse is applied to the AC > mains in > accordance with EN61000-4-5/IEC1000-4-5. After about 10 minutes, the > supply can > be turned back on and normal operation of the product can be resumed by > the > operator. Does this product conform to criterion B of the EN 50082-1 or > EN > 55024 standards? I believe it does because the sensing circuit is > specifically > designed to protect the product against this kind of voltage/current surge > and > the product operation is fully recoverable by the operator afterward. > However, > I would like to hear how others who do this testing would interpret this. > > Jim Hulbert > Senior Engineer - EMC > Pitney Bowes > > > > - > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the > quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, > jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). > > > > > > > - > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > To cancel your subscription, send mail to ma
Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion
Sorry Carlos, I can't go along with this one. If I'm using my PC here in the USA midwest and a storm comes along I don't want my PC shutting itself off every few minutes Only been hit directly with two lightning strikes this last 2 years, but during a storm you can continuously heat squeaking as the modem is hit, I know the power is seeing voltage surges too. I'll have to put a Dranitz on the power just to see what kinds of voltage surges arrive The same applies to surges generated by motors etc. If every time a motor switches on and my equipment does something, well that would have to go back to the store. By the way, I don't expect to find in the small print all sorts of get out clauses once I buy something A controlled shut down is there to prevent loss of life, destruction of the device, or something as equally bad. By the way, I was back home ( Manchester, England ) last October and bought my Mum a light that turns on when you touch any metal part of it, it was CE marked. I have a similar light here in the USA, mine's not CE marked. BOTH turn on/off when there are voltage transients on the power line. Now you can wrangle all you want, but being woken up in the middle of the night because the light turned on when the dishwasher began it's Saver Seven ( low cost overnight electricity ) cycle, is not acceptable performance! If then manufacturer calls this acceptable performance, then perhaps I should call him/her in the middle of the night each time to confirm that opinion...;-) What products do you make again;-))) Derek. During surge carlos.perk...@eu.effem.com wrote: > Jim, > > I agree with you, on the basis that in this case, a complete shut-down is a > designed-in function of the product, and the standard says "No degradation of > performance or loss of function is allowed below a performance level specified > by the manfucturer". You, as the manufacturer, are specifying this 'loss of > function'. > > In my mind, all you have to do is make the end user aware that a shut-down > will > occur when a surge is detected, and you should be OK. > > Cheers, > > Carlos. > > Please respond to "Jim Hulbert" > > To: emc-p...@ieee.org > cc: (bcc: Carlos A. Perkins/WIN/Effem) > From: "Jim Hulbert" on 12/01/2000 20:08 > > Subject: Surge Test Performance Criterion > > A product has a switched mode power supply with a current sensing circuit that > causes the supply to shut down when a surge pulse is applied to the AC mains > in > accordance with EN61000-4-5/IEC1000-4-5. After about 10 minutes, the supply > can > be turned back on and normal operation of the product can be resumed by the > operator. Does this product conform to criterion B of the EN 50082-1 or EN > 55024 standards? I believe it does because the sensing circuit is > specifically > designed to protect the product against this kind of voltage/current surge and > the product operation is fully recoverable by the operator afterward. > However, > I would like to hear how others who do this testing would interpret this. > > Jim Hulbert > Senior Engineer - EMC > Pitney Bowes > > - > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the > quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, > jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). > > - > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the > quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, > jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion
I agree with Carlos. The standard says, "This clause gives you a guide for evaluation of the test results". It also says, "The variety and diversity of equipment and systems to be tested makes the task of establishing the effects of surges on equipment and systems difficult". It also says, "The test results shall be classified on the basis of the operating conditions and the functional specifications of the equipment under test..". The standards committees are smart enough to know that they cannot possibly write descriptions of test evaluations that would cover every conceivable piece of equipment ever designed in the past or ever to be designed in the future, so they provided "guidelines for evaluation". If product specifications provide different operating conditions and functional specifications than are provided in the guidelines then testing is evaluated to the product specifications. carlos.perk...@eu.effem.com on 01/13/2000 01:15:25 AM Please respond to carlos.perk...@eu.effem.com To: "Jim Hulbert" cc: emc-p...@ieee.org (bcc: Robert E. Heller/US-Corporate/3M/US) Subject: Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion Jim, I agree with you, on the basis that in this case, a complete shut-down is a designed-in function of the product, and the standard says "No degradation of performance or loss of function is allowed below a performance level specified by the manfucturer". You, as the manufacturer, are specifying this 'loss of function'. In my mind, all you have to do is make the end user aware that a shut-down will occur when a surge is detected, and you should be OK. Cheers, Carlos. Please respond to "Jim Hulbert" To: emc-p...@ieee.org cc: (bcc: Carlos A. Perkins/WIN/Effem) From: "Jim Hulbert" on 12/01/2000 20:08 Subject: Surge Test Performance Criterion A product has a switched mode power supply with a current sensing circuit that causes the supply to shut down when a surge pulse is applied to the AC mains in accordance with EN61000-4-5/IEC1000-4-5. After about 10 minutes, the supply can be turned back on and normal operation of the product can be resumed by the operator. Does this product conform to criterion B of the EN 50082-1 or EN 55024 standards? I believe it does because the sensing circuit is specifically designed to protect the product against this kind of voltage/current surge and the product operation is fully recoverable by the operator afterward. However, I would like to hear how others who do this testing would interpret this. Jim Hulbert Senior Engineer - EMC Pitney Bowes - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion
Jim, I agree with you, on the basis that in this case, a complete shut-down is a designed-in function of the product, and the standard says "No degradation of performance or loss of function is allowed below a performance level specified by the manfucturer". You, as the manufacturer, are specifying this 'loss of function'. In my mind, all you have to do is make the end user aware that a shut-down will occur when a surge is detected, and you should be OK. Cheers, Carlos. Please respond to "Jim Hulbert" To: emc-p...@ieee.org cc: (bcc: Carlos A. Perkins/WIN/Effem) From: "Jim Hulbert" on 12/01/2000 20:08 Subject: Surge Test Performance Criterion A product has a switched mode power supply with a current sensing circuit that causes the supply to shut down when a surge pulse is applied to the AC mains in accordance with EN61000-4-5/IEC1000-4-5. After about 10 minutes, the supply can be turned back on and normal operation of the product can be resumed by the operator. Does this product conform to criterion B of the EN 50082-1 or EN 55024 standards? I believe it does because the sensing circuit is specifically designed to protect the product against this kind of voltage/current surge and the product operation is fully recoverable by the operator afterward. However, I would like to hear how others who do this testing would interpret this. Jim Hulbert Senior Engineer - EMC Pitney Bowes - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: Surge Test Performance Criterion
Jim: To me, the usual interpretation of performance criteria "B" is that the product has some deviation of performance during the test but the basic functionality of the product remains. The product must resume normal operation after the test, without operator intervention. Complete shutdown of the product is not acceptable, this is criteria "C". Bruce Fagley TUV Rheinland EMC Dept. - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: Surge Test Performance Criterion
Hi Jim, A guideline I use for Criteria B is that the E.U.T may exhibit degradation due to the field disturbance, but must self-recover after the field disturbance is removed. What I have seen is that in certain power supplies the secondary output voltage drops due to the surge, causing telco systems to re-set. If you have to manually turn the system back on your dealing with Criteria C. Hope this helps! Eddie O'Toole -Original Message- From: Jim Hulbert [mailto:hulbe...@pb.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 3:08 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Surge Test Performance Criterion A product has a switched mode power supply with a current sensing circuit that causes the supply to shut down when a surge pulse is applied to the AC mains in accordance with EN61000-4-5/IEC1000-4-5. After about 10 minutes, the supply can be turned back on and normal operation of the product can be resumed by the operator. Does this product conform to criterion B of the EN 50082-1 or EN 55024 standards? I believe it does because the sensing circuit is specifically designed to protect the product against this kind of voltage/current surge and the product operation is fully recoverable by the operator afterward. However, I would like to hear how others who do this testing would interpret this. Jim Hulbert Senior Engineer - EMC Pitney Bowes - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: Surge Test Performance Criterion
Jim, I forget where I procured this definition for Criteria B but if you abide by this definition, it would indicate to me that Due Diligence was exercised when testing your apparatus. 10 minutes however seems to be a bit long, where does this constraint come from? "the apparatus shall continue to operate as intended after the test. No degradation of performance or loss of function is allowed below a performance level specified by the manufacturer, when the apparatus is used as intended. In some cases the performance level may be replaced by a permissible loss of performance. If the minimum performance level or the permissible performance loss is not specified by the manufacturer than either of these may be derived from the product description and documentation and what the user may reasonably expect from the apparatus if used as intended." Regards, Mark -Original Message- From: Jim Hulbert [mailto:hulbe...@pb.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 3:08 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Surge Test Performance Criterion A product has a switched mode power supply with a current sensing circuit that causes the supply to shut down when a surge pulse is applied to the AC mains in accordance with EN61000-4-5/IEC1000-4-5. After about 10 minutes, the supply can be turned back on and normal operation of the product can be resumed by the operator. Does this product conform to criterion B of the EN 50082-1 or EN 55024 standards? I believe it does because the sensing circuit is specifically designed to protect the product against this kind of voltage/current surge and the product operation is fully recoverable by the operator afterward. However, I would like to hear how others who do this testing would interpret this. Jim Hulbert Senior Engineer - EMC Pitney Bowes - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: Surge Test Performance Criterion
Jim, The situation you describe would be criterion C, because there is a "temporary loss of function" and it is "recoverable". Scott Lacey > -Original Message- > From: Jim Hulbert [SMTP:hulbe...@pb.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 3:08 PM > To: emc-p...@ieee.org > Subject: Surge Test Performance Criterion > > > > > A product has a switched mode power supply with a current sensing circuit > that > causes the supply to shut down when a surge pulse is applied to the AC > mains in > accordance with EN61000-4-5/IEC1000-4-5. After about 10 minutes, the > supply can > be turned back on and normal operation of the product can be resumed by > the > operator. Does this product conform to criterion B of the EN 50082-1 or > EN > 55024 standards? I believe it does because the sensing circuit is > specifically > designed to protect the product against this kind of voltage/current surge > and > the product operation is fully recoverable by the operator afterward. > However, > I would like to hear how others who do this testing would interpret this. > > Jim Hulbert > Senior Engineer - EMC > Pitney Bowes > > > > - > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the > quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, > jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). > - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
