Re: Surge testing Questions

2009-03-10 Thread emc-p...@ieee.org
In message 
<9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0120c...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub>, 
dated Tue, 10 Mar 2009, "Price, Edward"  writes:

>What, you never had that happen?!

Only once - so far!
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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RE: Surge testing Questions

2009-03-10 Thread emc-p...@ieee.org
> -Original Message-
> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf 
> Of John Woodgate
> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:04 PM
> To: emc-p...@ieee.org
> Subject: Re: Surge testing Questions
> 
> In message
> , dated Mon, 9 Mar 2009, Ralph McDiarmid >
 writes:
> 
> >Most scopes I've used earth the probe ground-lead through 
> their mains 
> >power cord, so likely no need to attach the ground clip to anything 
> >when probing mains voltage.
> 
> This can be checked by attaching the ground clip and noting 
> whether there is any change in the display. Then leave it attached!
> --
> OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and 
> www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not 
> the only option.
> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK



And if the ground clip lead should suddenly begin to swell like a
plumping hot dog, then emit jets of smoke and finally glow for a moment
until the excitement ends, then you have yet another useful data point.

What, you never had that happen?!


Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN
NARTE Certified EMC Engineer
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Applications
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780
Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty

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Re: Surge testing Questions

2009-03-09 Thread emc-p...@ieee.org
In message 
, dated 
Mon, 9 Mar 2009, Ralph McDiarmid  writes:

>Most scopes I've used earth the probe ground-lead through their mains 
>power cord, so likely no need to attach the ground clip to anything 
>when probing mains voltage.

This can be checked by attaching the ground clip and noting whether 
there is any change in the display. Then leave it attached!
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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RE: Surge testing Questions

2009-03-09 Thread emc-p...@ieee.org
Most scopes I've used earth the probe ground-lead through their mains power
cord, so likely no need to attach the ground clip to anything when probing
mains voltage.


Ralph McDiarmid, AScT 
Compliance Engineering Group 
Xantrex Technology Inc


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:00 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Surge testing Questions

In message 
<0ed66cd2c9bd0a459d54fb9119a60567e0b...@mailserver.lecotc.com>, dated 
Mon, 9 Mar 2009, "Kunde, Brian"  writes:

>With a grounded Neutral, 0º and 180º is not the zero crossing point 
>(zero voltage potential to earth ground) but the 270º angle. Worst case 
>would be the 90º angle which would be Peak-Peak plus the Positive Surge 
>pulse.

Would you like to re-consider that. The 0 V line on the scope IS 0 V, 
between the hot tip and whatever the ground clip is connected to. If the 
neutral is earthed, it doesn't matter which one the ground clip is 
connected to; 0 V is 0 V.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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Re: Surge testing Questions

2009-03-09 Thread emc-p...@ieee.org
In message 
<0ed66cd2c9bd0a459d54fb9119a60567e0b...@mailserver.lecotc.com>, dated 
Mon, 9 Mar 2009, "Kunde, Brian"  writes:

>With a grounded Neutral, 0º and 180º is not the zero crossing point 
>(zero voltage potential to earth ground) but the 270º angle. Worst case 
>would be the 90º angle which would be Peak-Peak plus the Positive Surge 
>pulse.

Would you like to re-consider that. The 0 V line on the scope IS 0 V, 
between the hot tip and whatever the ground clip is connected to. If the 
neutral is earthed, it doesn't matter which one the ground clip is 
connected to; 0 V is 0 V.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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RE: Surge testing Questions

2009-03-09 Thread emc-p...@ieee.org
I’ve seen products pass at 0 deg and fail at 180deg.  Perhaps it’s more to
do with current than voltage, or with the sign of the voltage slope.

Ralph McDiarmid, AScT 
Compliance Engineering Group 
Xantrex Technology Inc 

  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hopkins
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:33 AM
To: 'Kunde, Brian'; 'Derek Walton'; 'IEEE EMC Discussion Group'
Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions

 

Well, 61000-4-5 does specify testing at both 0 and 180 degrees. That said, the
only difference I can see between the two conditions is that at zero, the line
voltage is increasing and at 180, it’s decreasing…. 

 

When the document was re-issued, there was considerable discussion about the
length of the test, so words were added to allow testing at rates faster than
one surge/minute. Removing some tests was discussed, but for every test to be
removed, someone had a good reason for keeping it in……

 

Best  Regards,

 

 

Michael Hopkins

Amber Precision Instruments

Office: +1 603 595 6420

Mobile: +1 603 765 3736

m...@amberpi.com

 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, Brian
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:06 PM
To: Mike Hopkins; Derek Walton; IEEE EMC Discussion Group
Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions

 

Our tester won't do Line and Neutral to Ground so we couldn't test that
condition even if we waned to.

 

In Europe, it is common to have 230VAC with a grounded neutral, so to properly
perform the Surge Test you have to test both Line to Ground and Neutral to
Ground.  Some labs even test worst case and perform the Surge test at 264VAC. 

 

With a grounded Neutral, 0º and 180º is not the zero crossing point (zero
voltage potential to earth ground) but the 270º angle. Worst case would be
the 90º angle which would be Peak-Peak plus the Positive Surge pulse. 

 

If you are not using a grounded Neutral or center-tap power system,  the true
zero crossing can float around so you have to test both line to ground and
neutral to ground to make sure you are testing the worst case voltage
potential.

 

I would think that the 0º angle point and the 180º angle point would be
exactly the same so I do not think you have to do both.  If someone disagrees,
please let me know and why.

 

Testing both the 0º and 180º angles during a 2KV test will turn a 4 hour
test into a 5 ½ hour test which is more money for the test lab to “follow
the standard”.  

 

The Other Brian

 

 

 


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hopkins
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:51 PM
To: 'Derek Walton'; 'IEEE EMC Discussion Group'
Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions

 

I believe the intention has always been to test line-to-ground (normal mode)

and then neutral-ground (common mode). It's been a few years since I was

convenor of that group and don't recall all the discussions. I believe

coupling multiple lines may have been discussed, but there are real problems

producing the proper waveforms for all conditions == especially for 3-phase

systems where multiple lines can be involved in a common mode test. Of

course, a product standard could require the line + neutral to ground tests,

but I'm not aware of any that do. If they did, I wouldn't guarantee the

waveforms to be correct from all generators under this condition. I believe

that the single line to ground common mode test has been around since the

old 801-5. 

 

In the US, ANSI/IEEE and many companies take the position that the transient

can come in any way it wants to, so line + neutral to ground is commonly

(excuse the PUN) done.

 

In section 8 of Edition 2 it's stated that for a.c. power ports five

positive and five negative pulses each at 0º, 90º, 180º and at 270º shall
be

done  So I'd say 180 IS a test as is 0 degrees...

 

 

Note 2 of that section also states that, "Product committees may select

different phase angles and either increase or reduce the number of surges

per phase..."

 

 

Hope this is helpful

 

 

Michael Hopkins

Amber Precision Instruments

Office: +1 603 595 6420

Mobile: +1 603 765 3736

m...@amberpi.com

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton

Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:22 AM

To: IEEE EMC Discussion Group

Subject: Surge testing Questions

 

Good day folks,

 

I have a question or two concerning the latest surge test document 

EN61000-4-5:

 

1) when the pulse is applied on a power lead between line and ground, is 

it done Line to ground, then Neutral to Ground OR, is it Line and 

Neutral to Ground.

 

One would think if this were a common mode test ( since it's referenced 

to Ground ) that the pulse be applied Line and Neutral to ground 

simultaneously. However, the wording in -5 clause 8.2 states 

*successively *implying Line to ground then Neutral to ground

RE: Surge testing Questions

2009-03-09 Thread emc-p...@ieee.org
Well, 61000-4-5 does specify testing at both 0 and 180 degrees. That said, the
only difference I can see between the two conditions is that at zero, the line
voltage is increasing and at 180, it’s decreasing…. 

 

When the document was re-issued, there was considerable discussion about the
length of the test, so words were added to allow testing at rates faster than
one surge/minute. Removing some tests was discussed, but for every test to be
removed, someone had a good reason for keeping it in……

 

Best  Regards,

 

 

Michael Hopkins

Amber Precision Instruments

Office: +1 603 595 6420

Mobile: +1 603 765 3736

m...@amberpi.com

 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, Brian
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:06 PM
To: Mike Hopkins; Derek Walton; IEEE EMC Discussion Group
Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions

 

Our tester won't do Line and Neutral to Ground so we couldn't test that
condition even if we waned to.

 

In Europe, it is common to have 230VAC with a grounded neutral, so to properly
perform the Surge Test you have to test both Line to Ground and Neutral to
Ground.  Some labs even test worst case and perform the Surge test at 264VAC. 

 

With a grounded Neutral, 0º and 180º is not the zero crossing point (zero
voltage potential to earth ground) but the 270º angle. Worst case would be
the 90º angle which would be Peak-Peak plus the Positive Surge pulse. 

 

If you are not using a grounded Neutral or center-tap power system,  the true
zero crossing can float around so you have to test both line to ground and
neutral to ground to make sure you are testing the worst case voltage
potential.

 

I would think that the 0º angle point and the 180º angle point would be
exactly the same so I do not think you have to do both.  If someone disagrees,
please let me know and why.

 

Testing both the 0º and 180º angles during a 2KV test will turn a 4 hour
test into a 5 ½ hour test which is more money for the test lab to “follow
the standard”.  

 

The Other Brian

 

 

 


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hopkins
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:51 PM
To: 'Derek Walton'; 'IEEE EMC Discussion Group'
Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions

 

I believe the intention has always been to test line-to-ground (normal mode)

and then neutral-ground (common mode). It's been a few years since I was

convenor of that group and don't recall all the discussions. I believe

coupling multiple lines may have been discussed, but there are real problems

producing the proper waveforms for all conditions == especially for 3-phase

systems where multiple lines can be involved in a common mode test. Of

course, a product standard could require the line + neutral to ground tests,

but I'm not aware of any that do. If they did, I wouldn't guarantee the

waveforms to be correct from all generators under this condition. I believe

that the single line to ground common mode test has been around since the

old 801-5. 

 

In the US, ANSI/IEEE and many companies take the position that the transient

can come in any way it wants to, so line + neutral to ground is commonly

(excuse the PUN) done.

 

In section 8 of Edition 2 it's stated that for a.c. power ports five

positive and five negative pulses each at 0º, 90º, 180º and at 270º shall
be

done  So I'd say 180 IS a test as is 0 degrees...

 

 

Note 2 of that section also states that, "Product committees may select

different phase angles and either increase or reduce the number of surges

per phase..."

 

 

Hope this is helpful

 

 

Michael Hopkins

Amber Precision Instruments

Office: +1 603 595 6420

Mobile: +1 603 765 3736

m...@amberpi.com

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton

Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:22 AM

To: IEEE EMC Discussion Group

Subject: Surge testing Questions

 

Good day folks,

 

I have a question or two concerning the latest surge test document 

EN61000-4-5:

 

1) when the pulse is applied on a power lead between line and ground, is 

it done Line to ground, then Neutral to Ground OR, is it Line and 

Neutral to Ground.

 

One would think if this were a common mode test ( since it's referenced 

to Ground ) that the pulse be applied Line and Neutral to ground 

simultaneously. However, the wording in -5 clause 8.2 states 

*successively *implying Line to ground then Neutral to ground. This 

implies separate tests.

 

2) On an AC waveform, is the 180 degree position a test condition? I ask 

because it states Zero crossing point. If this is NOT where is the 

exemption?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Derek Walton

L F Research

 

-



This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc

discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to



 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web a

RE: Surge testing Questions

2009-03-09 Thread emc-p...@ieee.org
Our tester won't do Line and Neutral to Ground so we couldn't test that
condition even if we waned to.

 

In Europe, it is common to have 230VAC with a grounded neutral, so to properly
perform the Surge Test you have to test both Line to Ground and Neutral to
Ground.  Some labs even test worst case and perform the Surge test at 264VAC. 

 

With a grounded Neutral, 0º and 180º is not the zero crossing point (zero
voltage potential to earth ground) but the 270º angle. Worst case would be
the 90º angle which would be Peak-Peak plus the Positive Surge pulse. 

 

If you are not using a grounded Neutral or center-tap power system,  the true
zero crossing can float around so you have to test both line to ground and
neutral to ground to make sure you are testing the worst case voltage
potential.

 

I would think that the 0º angle point and the 180º angle point would be
exactly the same so I do not think you have to do both.  If someone disagrees,
please let me know and why.

 

Testing both the 0º and 180º angles during a 2KV test will turn a 4 hour
test into a 5 ½ hour test which is more money for the test lab to “follow
the standard”.  

 

The Other Brian

 

 

 


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hopkins
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:51 PM
To: 'Derek Walton'; 'IEEE EMC Discussion Group'
Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions

 

I believe the intention has always been to test line-to-ground (normal mode)

and then neutral-ground (common mode). It's been a few years since I was

convenor of that group and don't recall all the discussions. I believe

coupling multiple lines may have been discussed, but there are real problems

producing the proper waveforms for all conditions == especially for 3-phase

systems where multiple lines can be involved in a common mode test. Of

course, a product standard could require the line + neutral to ground tests,

but I'm not aware of any that do. If they did, I wouldn't guarantee the

waveforms to be correct from all generators under this condition. I believe

that the single line to ground common mode test has been around since the

old 801-5. 

 

In the US, ANSI/IEEE and many companies take the position that the transient

can come in any way it wants to, so line + neutral to ground is commonly

(excuse the PUN) done.

 

In section 8 of Edition 2 it's stated that for a.c. power ports five

positive and five negative pulses each at 0º, 90º, 180º and at 270º shall
be

done  So I'd say 180 IS a test as is 0 degrees...

 

 

Note 2 of that section also states that, "Product committees may select

different phase angles and either increase or reduce the number of surges

per phase..."

 

 

Hope this is helpful

 

 

Michael Hopkins

Amber Precision Instruments

Office: +1 603 595 6420

Mobile: +1 603 765 3736

m...@amberpi.com

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton

Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:22 AM

To: IEEE EMC Discussion Group

Subject: Surge testing Questions

 

Good day folks,

 

I have a question or two concerning the latest surge test document 

EN61000-4-5:

 

1) when the pulse is applied on a power lead between line and ground, is 

it done Line to ground, then Neutral to Ground OR, is it Line and 

Neutral to Ground.

 

One would think if this were a common mode test ( since it's referenced 

to Ground ) that the pulse be applied Line and Neutral to ground 

simultaneously. However, the wording in -5 clause 8.2 states 

*successively *implying Line to ground then Neutral to ground. This 

implies separate tests.

 

2) On an AC waveform, is the 180 degree position a test condition? I ask 

because it states Zero crossing point. If this is NOT where is the 

exemption?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Derek Walton

L F Research

 

-



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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to



 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc

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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:

Scott Douglas 

Mike Cantwell 

 

For policy questions, send mail to:

Jim Bacher:  

David Heald: 

 

-



This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc

Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL.

 

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Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/r

RE: Surge testing Questions

2009-03-06 Thread emc-p...@ieee.org
I believe the intention has always been to test line-to-ground (normal mode)
and then neutral-ground (common mode). It's been a few years since I was
convenor of that group and don't recall all the discussions. I believe
coupling multiple lines may have been discussed, but there are real problems
producing the proper waveforms for all conditions == especially for 3-phase
systems where multiple lines can be involved in a common mode test. Of
course, a product standard could require the line + neutral to ground tests,
but I'm not aware of any that do. If they did, I wouldn't guarantee the
waveforms to be correct from all generators under this condition. I believe
that the single line to ground common mode test has been around since the
old 801-5. 

In the US, ANSI/IEEE and many companies take the position that the transient
can come in any way it wants to, so line + neutral to ground is commonly
(excuse the PUN) done.

In section 8 of Edition 2 it's stated that for a.c. power ports five
positive and five negative pulses each at 0º, 90º, 180º and at 270º shall
be
done  So I'd say 180 IS a test as is 0 degrees...


Note 2 of that section also states that, "Product committees may select
different phase angles and either increase or reduce the number of surges
per phase..."


Hope this is helpful


Michael Hopkins
Amber Precision Instruments
Office: +1 603 595 6420
Mobile: +1 603 765 3736
m...@amberpi.com


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:22 AM
To: IEEE EMC Discussion Group
Subject: Surge testing Questions

Good day folks,

I have a question or two concerning the latest surge test document 
EN61000-4-5:

1) when the pulse is applied on a power lead between line and ground, is 
it done Line to ground, then Neutral to Ground OR, is it Line and 
Neutral to Ground.

One would think if this were a common mode test ( since it's referenced 
to Ground ) that the pulse be applied Line and Neutral to ground 
simultaneously. However, the wording in -5 clause 8.2 states 
*successively *implying Line to ground then Neutral to ground. This 
implies separate tests.

2) On an AC waveform, is the 180 degree position a test condition? I ask 
because it states Zero crossing point. If this is NOT where is the 
exemption?

Many thanks in advance.

Derek Walton
L F Research

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

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David Heald: 


Surge testing Questions

2009-03-06 Thread emc-p...@ieee.org
Good day folks,

I have a question or two concerning the latest surge test document 
EN61000-4-5:

1) when the pulse is applied on a power lead between line and ground, is 
it done Line to ground, then Neutral to Ground OR, is it Line and 
Neutral to Ground.

One would think if this were a common mode test ( since it's referenced 
to Ground ) that the pulse be applied Line and Neutral to ground 
simultaneously. However, the wording in -5 clause 8.2 states 
*successively *implying Line to ground then Neutral to ground. This 
implies separate tests.

2) On an AC waveform, is the 180 degree position a test condition? I ask 
because it states Zero crossing point. If this is NOT where is the 
exemption?

Many thanks in advance.

Derek Walton
L F Research

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