Re: Surge testing Questions
In message <9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0120c...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub>, dated Tue, 10 Mar 2009, "Price, Edward" writes: >What, you never had that happen?! Only once - so far! -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: Surge testing Questions
> -Original Message- > From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf > Of John Woodgate > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:04 PM > To: emc-p...@ieee.org > Subject: Re: Surge testing Questions > > In message > , dated Mon, 9 Mar 2009, Ralph McDiarmid > writes: > > >Most scopes I've used earth the probe ground-lead through > their mains > >power cord, so likely no need to attach the ground clip to anything > >when probing mains voltage. > > This can be checked by attaching the ground clip and noting > whether there is any change in the display. Then leave it attached! > -- > OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and > www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not > the only option. > John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK And if the ground clip lead should suddenly begin to swell like a plumping hot dog, then emit jets of smoke and finally glow for a moment until the excitement ends, then you have yet another useful data point. What, you never had that happen?! Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: Surge testing Questions
In message , dated Mon, 9 Mar 2009, Ralph McDiarmid writes: >Most scopes I've used earth the probe ground-lead through their mains >power cord, so likely no need to attach the ground clip to anything >when probing mains voltage. This can be checked by attaching the ground clip and noting whether there is any change in the display. Then leave it attached! -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: Surge testing Questions
Most scopes I've used earth the probe ground-lead through their mains power cord, so likely no need to attach the ground clip to anything when probing mains voltage. Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:00 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Surge testing Questions In message <0ed66cd2c9bd0a459d54fb9119a60567e0b...@mailserver.lecotc.com>, dated Mon, 9 Mar 2009, "Kunde, Brian" writes: >With a grounded Neutral, 0º and 180º is not the zero crossing point >(zero voltage potential to earth ground) but the 270º angle. Worst case >would be the 90º angle which would be Peak-Peak plus the Positive Surge >pulse. Would you like to re-consider that. The 0 V line on the scope IS 0 V, between the hot tip and whatever the ground clip is connected to. If the neutral is earthed, it doesn't matter which one the ground clip is connected to; 0 V is 0 V. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: Surge testing Questions
In message <0ed66cd2c9bd0a459d54fb9119a60567e0b...@mailserver.lecotc.com>, dated Mon, 9 Mar 2009, "Kunde, Brian" writes: >With a grounded Neutral, 0º and 180º is not the zero crossing point >(zero voltage potential to earth ground) but the 270º angle. Worst case >would be the 90º angle which would be Peak-Peak plus the Positive Surge >pulse. Would you like to re-consider that. The 0 V line on the scope IS 0 V, between the hot tip and whatever the ground clip is connected to. If the neutral is earthed, it doesn't matter which one the ground clip is connected to; 0 V is 0 V. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: Surge testing Questions
I’ve seen products pass at 0 deg and fail at 180deg. Perhaps it’s more to do with current than voltage, or with the sign of the voltage slope. Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hopkins Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:33 AM To: 'Kunde, Brian'; 'Derek Walton'; 'IEEE EMC Discussion Group' Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions Well, 61000-4-5 does specify testing at both 0 and 180 degrees. That said, the only difference I can see between the two conditions is that at zero, the line voltage is increasing and at 180, it’s decreasing…. When the document was re-issued, there was considerable discussion about the length of the test, so words were added to allow testing at rates faster than one surge/minute. Removing some tests was discussed, but for every test to be removed, someone had a good reason for keeping it in…… Best Regards, Michael Hopkins Amber Precision Instruments Office: +1 603 595 6420 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 m...@amberpi.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, Brian Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:06 PM To: Mike Hopkins; Derek Walton; IEEE EMC Discussion Group Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions Our tester won't do Line and Neutral to Ground so we couldn't test that condition even if we waned to. In Europe, it is common to have 230VAC with a grounded neutral, so to properly perform the Surge Test you have to test both Line to Ground and Neutral to Ground. Some labs even test worst case and perform the Surge test at 264VAC. With a grounded Neutral, 0º and 180º is not the zero crossing point (zero voltage potential to earth ground) but the 270º angle. Worst case would be the 90º angle which would be Peak-Peak plus the Positive Surge pulse. If you are not using a grounded Neutral or center-tap power system, the true zero crossing can float around so you have to test both line to ground and neutral to ground to make sure you are testing the worst case voltage potential. I would think that the 0º angle point and the 180º angle point would be exactly the same so I do not think you have to do both. If someone disagrees, please let me know and why. Testing both the 0º and 180º angles during a 2KV test will turn a 4 hour test into a 5 ½ hour test which is more money for the test lab to “follow the standard”. The Other Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hopkins Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:51 PM To: 'Derek Walton'; 'IEEE EMC Discussion Group' Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions I believe the intention has always been to test line-to-ground (normal mode) and then neutral-ground (common mode). It's been a few years since I was convenor of that group and don't recall all the discussions. I believe coupling multiple lines may have been discussed, but there are real problems producing the proper waveforms for all conditions == especially for 3-phase systems where multiple lines can be involved in a common mode test. Of course, a product standard could require the line + neutral to ground tests, but I'm not aware of any that do. If they did, I wouldn't guarantee the waveforms to be correct from all generators under this condition. I believe that the single line to ground common mode test has been around since the old 801-5. In the US, ANSI/IEEE and many companies take the position that the transient can come in any way it wants to, so line + neutral to ground is commonly (excuse the PUN) done. In section 8 of Edition 2 it's stated that for a.c. power ports five positive and five negative pulses each at 0º, 90º, 180º and at 270º shall be done So I'd say 180 IS a test as is 0 degrees... Note 2 of that section also states that, "Product committees may select different phase angles and either increase or reduce the number of surges per phase..." Hope this is helpful Michael Hopkins Amber Precision Instruments Office: +1 603 595 6420 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 m...@amberpi.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:22 AM To: IEEE EMC Discussion Group Subject: Surge testing Questions Good day folks, I have a question or two concerning the latest surge test document EN61000-4-5: 1) when the pulse is applied on a power lead between line and ground, is it done Line to ground, then Neutral to Ground OR, is it Line and Neutral to Ground. One would think if this were a common mode test ( since it's referenced to Ground ) that the pulse be applied Line and Neutral to ground simultaneously. However, the wording in -5 clause 8.2 states *successively *implying Line to ground then Neutral to ground
RE: Surge testing Questions
Well, 61000-4-5 does specify testing at both 0 and 180 degrees. That said, the only difference I can see between the two conditions is that at zero, the line voltage is increasing and at 180, it’s decreasing…. When the document was re-issued, there was considerable discussion about the length of the test, so words were added to allow testing at rates faster than one surge/minute. Removing some tests was discussed, but for every test to be removed, someone had a good reason for keeping it in…… Best Regards, Michael Hopkins Amber Precision Instruments Office: +1 603 595 6420 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 m...@amberpi.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, Brian Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:06 PM To: Mike Hopkins; Derek Walton; IEEE EMC Discussion Group Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions Our tester won't do Line and Neutral to Ground so we couldn't test that condition even if we waned to. In Europe, it is common to have 230VAC with a grounded neutral, so to properly perform the Surge Test you have to test both Line to Ground and Neutral to Ground. Some labs even test worst case and perform the Surge test at 264VAC. With a grounded Neutral, 0º and 180º is not the zero crossing point (zero voltage potential to earth ground) but the 270º angle. Worst case would be the 90º angle which would be Peak-Peak plus the Positive Surge pulse. If you are not using a grounded Neutral or center-tap power system, the true zero crossing can float around so you have to test both line to ground and neutral to ground to make sure you are testing the worst case voltage potential. I would think that the 0º angle point and the 180º angle point would be exactly the same so I do not think you have to do both. If someone disagrees, please let me know and why. Testing both the 0º and 180º angles during a 2KV test will turn a 4 hour test into a 5 ½ hour test which is more money for the test lab to “follow the standard”. The Other Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hopkins Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:51 PM To: 'Derek Walton'; 'IEEE EMC Discussion Group' Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions I believe the intention has always been to test line-to-ground (normal mode) and then neutral-ground (common mode). It's been a few years since I was convenor of that group and don't recall all the discussions. I believe coupling multiple lines may have been discussed, but there are real problems producing the proper waveforms for all conditions == especially for 3-phase systems where multiple lines can be involved in a common mode test. Of course, a product standard could require the line + neutral to ground tests, but I'm not aware of any that do. If they did, I wouldn't guarantee the waveforms to be correct from all generators under this condition. I believe that the single line to ground common mode test has been around since the old 801-5. In the US, ANSI/IEEE and many companies take the position that the transient can come in any way it wants to, so line + neutral to ground is commonly (excuse the PUN) done. In section 8 of Edition 2 it's stated that for a.c. power ports five positive and five negative pulses each at 0º, 90º, 180º and at 270º shall be done So I'd say 180 IS a test as is 0 degrees... Note 2 of that section also states that, "Product committees may select different phase angles and either increase or reduce the number of surges per phase..." Hope this is helpful Michael Hopkins Amber Precision Instruments Office: +1 603 595 6420 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 m...@amberpi.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:22 AM To: IEEE EMC Discussion Group Subject: Surge testing Questions Good day folks, I have a question or two concerning the latest surge test document EN61000-4-5: 1) when the pulse is applied on a power lead between line and ground, is it done Line to ground, then Neutral to Ground OR, is it Line and Neutral to Ground. One would think if this were a common mode test ( since it's referenced to Ground ) that the pulse be applied Line and Neutral to ground simultaneously. However, the wording in -5 clause 8.2 states *successively *implying Line to ground then Neutral to ground. This implies separate tests. 2) On an AC waveform, is the 180 degree position a test condition? I ask because it states Zero crossing point. If this is NOT where is the exemption? Many thanks in advance. Derek Walton L F Research - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web a
RE: Surge testing Questions
Our tester won't do Line and Neutral to Ground so we couldn't test that condition even if we waned to. In Europe, it is common to have 230VAC with a grounded neutral, so to properly perform the Surge Test you have to test both Line to Ground and Neutral to Ground. Some labs even test worst case and perform the Surge test at 264VAC. With a grounded Neutral, 0º and 180º is not the zero crossing point (zero voltage potential to earth ground) but the 270º angle. Worst case would be the 90º angle which would be Peak-Peak plus the Positive Surge pulse. If you are not using a grounded Neutral or center-tap power system, the true zero crossing can float around so you have to test both line to ground and neutral to ground to make sure you are testing the worst case voltage potential. I would think that the 0º angle point and the 180º angle point would be exactly the same so I do not think you have to do both. If someone disagrees, please let me know and why. Testing both the 0º and 180º angles during a 2KV test will turn a 4 hour test into a 5 ½ hour test which is more money for the test lab to “follow the standard”. The Other Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hopkins Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:51 PM To: 'Derek Walton'; 'IEEE EMC Discussion Group' Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions I believe the intention has always been to test line-to-ground (normal mode) and then neutral-ground (common mode). It's been a few years since I was convenor of that group and don't recall all the discussions. I believe coupling multiple lines may have been discussed, but there are real problems producing the proper waveforms for all conditions == especially for 3-phase systems where multiple lines can be involved in a common mode test. Of course, a product standard could require the line + neutral to ground tests, but I'm not aware of any that do. If they did, I wouldn't guarantee the waveforms to be correct from all generators under this condition. I believe that the single line to ground common mode test has been around since the old 801-5. In the US, ANSI/IEEE and many companies take the position that the transient can come in any way it wants to, so line + neutral to ground is commonly (excuse the PUN) done. In section 8 of Edition 2 it's stated that for a.c. power ports five positive and five negative pulses each at 0º, 90º, 180º and at 270º shall be done So I'd say 180 IS a test as is 0 degrees... Note 2 of that section also states that, "Product committees may select different phase angles and either increase or reduce the number of surges per phase..." Hope this is helpful Michael Hopkins Amber Precision Instruments Office: +1 603 595 6420 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 m...@amberpi.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:22 AM To: IEEE EMC Discussion Group Subject: Surge testing Questions Good day folks, I have a question or two concerning the latest surge test document EN61000-4-5: 1) when the pulse is applied on a power lead between line and ground, is it done Line to ground, then Neutral to Ground OR, is it Line and Neutral to Ground. One would think if this were a common mode test ( since it's referenced to Ground ) that the pulse be applied Line and Neutral to ground simultaneously. However, the wording in -5 clause 8.2 states *successively *implying Line to ground then Neutral to ground. This implies separate tests. 2) On an AC waveform, is the 180 degree position a test condition? I ask because it states Zero crossing point. If this is NOT where is the exemption? Many thanks in advance. Derek Walton L F Research - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/r
RE: Surge testing Questions
I believe the intention has always been to test line-to-ground (normal mode) and then neutral-ground (common mode). It's been a few years since I was convenor of that group and don't recall all the discussions. I believe coupling multiple lines may have been discussed, but there are real problems producing the proper waveforms for all conditions == especially for 3-phase systems where multiple lines can be involved in a common mode test. Of course, a product standard could require the line + neutral to ground tests, but I'm not aware of any that do. If they did, I wouldn't guarantee the waveforms to be correct from all generators under this condition. I believe that the single line to ground common mode test has been around since the old 801-5. In the US, ANSI/IEEE and many companies take the position that the transient can come in any way it wants to, so line + neutral to ground is commonly (excuse the PUN) done. In section 8 of Edition 2 it's stated that for a.c. power ports five positive and five negative pulses each at 0º, 90º, 180º and at 270º shall be done So I'd say 180 IS a test as is 0 degrees... Note 2 of that section also states that, "Product committees may select different phase angles and either increase or reduce the number of surges per phase..." Hope this is helpful Michael Hopkins Amber Precision Instruments Office: +1 603 595 6420 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 m...@amberpi.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:22 AM To: IEEE EMC Discussion Group Subject: Surge testing Questions Good day folks, I have a question or two concerning the latest surge test document EN61000-4-5: 1) when the pulse is applied on a power lead between line and ground, is it done Line to ground, then Neutral to Ground OR, is it Line and Neutral to Ground. One would think if this were a common mode test ( since it's referenced to Ground ) that the pulse be applied Line and Neutral to ground simultaneously. However, the wording in -5 clause 8.2 states *successively *implying Line to ground then Neutral to ground. This implies separate tests. 2) On an AC waveform, is the 180 degree position a test condition? I ask because it states Zero crossing point. If this is NOT where is the exemption? Many thanks in advance. Derek Walton L F Research - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Surge testing Questions
Good day folks, I have a question or two concerning the latest surge test document EN61000-4-5: 1) when the pulse is applied on a power lead between line and ground, is it done Line to ground, then Neutral to Ground OR, is it Line and Neutral to Ground. One would think if this were a common mode test ( since it's referenced to Ground ) that the pulse be applied Line and Neutral to ground simultaneously. However, the wording in -5 clause 8.2 states *successively *implying Line to ground then Neutral to ground. This implies separate tests. 2) On an AC waveform, is the 180 degree position a test condition? I ask because it states Zero crossing point. If this is NOT where is the exemption? Many thanks in advance. Derek Walton L F Research - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
