way OT: (was RE: jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.)
This discussion is getting astray from the content requirements of the list. If, after this posting, anyone wishes to continue this discussion, I invite you to take it off the list. I'd be pleased to participate. Still not quite correct, John, but I can see how an outsider might consider it semantical. The arrangement is bottom-up, rather than delegated from the top down. In fighting occurs when the higher level of government oversteps its bounds. It's kind of like, you're not the boss of me, that we bloody colonists told Mother. As to delegation, the US Constitution spells out the authority of the federal government and everything else is left to the state and local governments. Each state has a similar constitution that more or less does the same thing with county and municipal governments. For instance, the Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution makes it clear that whatever authority is not explicitly given to the federal government is reserved to the states (I suppose this could be interpreted as delegation, but delegation implies you will do this, whereas the Constitution says, we're not going to do that, but you can if you want to.). Where this gets muddled is when the Hamiltonians get a wild hair that there oughtta be a law about this and that, and in the process infringe on states rights or individual rights of the citizenry. Sometimes by unfunded mandate, sometimes by directly trying to increase the centralization of government, sometimes by blatant usurpation. Usurpation most often occurs by the Executive Branch departments' issuing edicts from their lesser, included bodies that, where through the necessary and proper clause of the Constitution, Congress has given their regulations the power of law. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com From: John Woodgate Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 1:04 PM OK, this is a semantic issue. IMHO, 'delegation' is the appropriate word if there is a written law that prescribes how authority is allocated. If, OTOH, it is a situation like English 'common law', which is not necessarily written as a statute but stems from tradition and case law, then 'supersession' may be the better word. I *think* that the autonomy of the US states is of that nature, the federal Constitution simply affirming what was already established. -- Regards, John Woodgate This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.
I read in !emc-pstc that Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com wrote (in nebbkemlgllmjofmoplemebiedaa.peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com) about 'jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.' on Tue, 21 Jan 2003: That's what I meant by 'delegated' Except that there is no delegation. Rather, the case is one of supersession: municipal to county to state to federal, in that order. Generally, the higher level of government trumps the lower. However, a number of complaints and court cases have been brought by the lower governmental bodies against higher levels of government for treading on their jurisdiction where they have questionable legal basis to. OK, this is a semantic issue. IMHO, 'delegation' is the appropriate word if there is a written law that prescribes how authority is allocated. If, OTOH, it is a situation like English 'common law', which is not necessarily written as a statute but stems from tradition and case law, then 'supersession' may be the better word. I *think* that the autonomy of the US states is of that nature, the federal Constitution simply affirming what was already established. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.
From: John Woodgate Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 12:40 AM I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute wrote Hi John: The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. A very great deal more complicated, because the practical requirements are not centralized but delegated down though the local government chain, and in some cases jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated. Furthermore, in the USA, requirements are NOT delegated down though the local government chain Furthermore, there are NO cases where jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated. Depending on the State, building codes are set and enforced by either the State, the County, or the City. These are the jurisdictions. That's what I meant by 'delegated' Except that there is no delegation. Rather, the case is one of supersession: municipal to county to state to federal, in that order. Generally, the higher level of government trumps the lower. However, a number of complaints and court cases have been brought by the lower governmental bodies against higher levels of government for treading on their jurisdiction where they have questionable legal basis to. I'm sure I read here about different attitudes to DIY modifications at City, County and State levels, each level claiming authority - no response like 'We don't have jurisdiction; you have to ask City about that'. I have run into something like this. The city deferred to the county in some areas (major construction issues like home remodeling) and the county deferred to the city in others (ancillary constructions like fences, storage sheds, etc.). Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200301210304.taa03...@hpsdlxs0.sdd.hp.com) about 'jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.' on Mon, 20 Jan 2003: Hi John: The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. A very great deal more complicated, because the practical requirements are not centralized but delegated down though the local government chain, and in some cases jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated. I'm not at all sure what you mean by the practical requirements are not centralized I mean that they are not uniform over the whole country, AIUI. Some AHJs stick closely to the NEC, some apply their own 'improvements', or so I have read here. Furthermore, in the USA, requirements are NOT delegated down though the local government chain Furthermore, there are NO cases where jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated. Depending on the State, building codes are set and enforced by either the State, the County, or the City. These are the jurisdictions. That's what I meant by 'delegated' There is no jurisdictional overlap or lack of clear segregation (at least insofar as building codes are concerned). I'm sure I read here about different attitudes to DIY modifications at City, County and State levels, each level claiming authority - no response like 'We don't have jurisdiction; you have to ask City about that'. If that is an urban legend, I have been misled, but no-one challenged it at the time. [snip] -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.
Hi John: The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. A very great deal more complicated, because the practical requirements are not centralized but delegated down though the local government chain, and in some cases jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated. I'm not at all sure what you mean by the practical requirements are not centralized Furthermore, in the USA, requirements are NOT delegated down though the local government chain Furthermore, there are NO cases where jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated. Depending on the State, building codes are set and enforced by either the State, the County, or the City. These are the jurisdictions. There is no jurisdictional overlap or lack of clear segregation (at least insofar as building codes are concerned). Within the Building Code, there is a subset, the Electrical Code. These Codes comprise a Standard for the construction of buildings, including the electrical construction of the of the building. Electrical codes typically require the individual materials used in the electrical construction, including appliances, to be certified for safety (Listed) by safety labs specified in the local code. There is no delegation down through local governments. The USA Federal government Department of Labor has a separate and independent (from building codes) set of safety rules for employees. One of the rules addresses electrical safety in the workplace. Included in these electrical safety rules is a rule specifying that the electrical equipment used by employees be Listed (by a NRTL). A jurisidictional overlap may APPEAR to exist between the electrical code and the DoL OSHA rule. However, in practice, both organizations have been very careful not to tread in the other's jurisdiction. Best regards, Rich This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
