way OT: (was RE: jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.)

2003-01-22 Thread Peter L. Tarver

This discussion is getting astray from the content
requirements of the list.  If, after this posting, anyone
wishes to continue this discussion, I invite you to take it
off the list.  I'd be pleased to participate.

Still not quite correct, John, but I can see how an outsider
might consider it semantical.  The arrangement is bottom-up,
rather than delegated from the top down.  In fighting occurs
when the higher level of government oversteps its bounds.
It's kind of like, you're not the boss of me, that we
bloody colonists told Mother.

As to delegation, the US Constitution spells out the
authority of the federal government and everything else is
left to the state and local governments.  Each state has a
similar constitution that more or less does the same thing
with county and municipal governments.  For instance, the
Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution makes it clear that
whatever authority is not explicitly given to the federal
government is reserved to the states (I suppose this could
be interpreted as delegation, but delegation implies you
will do this, whereas the Constitution says, we're not
going to do that, but you can if you want to.).

Where this gets muddled is when the Hamiltonians get a wild
hair that there oughtta be a law about this and that, and
in the process infringe on states rights or individual
rights of the citizenry.  Sometimes by unfunded mandate,
sometimes by directly trying to increase the centralization
of government, sometimes by blatant usurpation.  Usurpation
most often occurs by the Executive Branch departments'
issuing edicts from their lesser, included bodies that,
where through the necessary and proper clause of the
Constitution, Congress has given their regulations the
power of law.


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver, PE
Product Safety Manager
Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services
San Jose, CA
peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com

 From: John Woodgate
 Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 1:04 PM

 OK, this is a semantic issue. IMHO, 'delegation'
 is the appropriate word
 if there is a written law that prescribes how
 authority is allocated.
 If, OTOH, it is a situation like English 'common
 law', which is not
 necessarily written as a statute but stems from
 tradition and case law,
 then 'supersession' may be the better word. I
 *think* that the autonomy
 of the US states is of that nature, the federal
 Constitution simply
 affirming what was already established.
 --
 Regards, John Woodgate



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Re: jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.

2003-01-21 Thread John Woodgate

I read in !emc-pstc that Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com
wrote (in nebbkemlgllmjofmoplemebiedaa.peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com)
about 'jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.' on Tue, 21
Jan 2003:
 That's what I meant by 'delegated'

Except that there is no delegation.  Rather, the case is one
of supersession:  municipal to county to state to federal,
in that order.  Generally, the higher level of government
trumps the lower.  However, a number of complaints and
court cases have been brought by the lower governmental
bodies against higher levels of government for treading on
their jurisdiction where they have questionable legal basis
to.

OK, this is a semantic issue. IMHO, 'delegation' is the appropriate word
if there is a written law that prescribes how authority is allocated.
If, OTOH, it is a situation like English 'common law', which is not
necessarily written as a statute but stems from tradition and case law,
then 'supersession' may be the better word. I *think* that the autonomy
of the US states is of that nature, the federal Constitution simply
affirming what was already established.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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RE: jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.

2003-01-21 Thread Peter L. Tarver


 From: John Woodgate
 Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 12:40 AM

 I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute  wrote
 
 Hi John:
 
The electrical safety legislation seems to
 be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU.
 
A very great deal more complicated, because
 the practical requirements
are not centralized but delegated down
 though the local government
chain, and in some cases jurisdictions
 overlap or are not clearly
segregated.
 
 
 Furthermore, in the USA, requirements are NOT
 
 delegated down though the local government chain
 
 Furthermore, there are NO cases where
 
 jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly
 segregated.
 
 Depending on the State, building codes are set and
enforced by
 either the State, the County, or the City.  These are the
 jurisdictions.

 That's what I meant by 'delegated'

Except that there is no delegation.  Rather, the case is one
of supersession:  municipal to county to state to federal,
in that order.  Generally, the higher level of government
trumps the lower.  However, a number of complaints and
court cases have been brought by the lower governmental
bodies against higher levels of government for treading on
their jurisdiction where they have questionable legal basis
to.

 I'm sure I read here about different attitudes to
 DIY modifications at
 City, County and State levels, each level
 claiming authority - no
 response like 'We don't have jurisdiction; you
 have to ask City about that'.

I have run into something like this.  The city deferred to
the county in some areas (major construction issues like
home remodeling) and the county deferred to the city in
others (ancillary constructions like fences, storage sheds,
etc.).


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver, PE
Product Safety Manager
Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services
San Jose, CA
peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com



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Re: jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.

2003-01-21 Thread John Woodgate

I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in
200301210304.taa03...@hpsdlxs0.sdd.hp.com) about 'jurisdiction,
overlap, and delegation in USA rules.' on Mon, 20 Jan 2003:



Hi John:


   The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in 
U.S.
   compared to EU.
   
   A very great deal more complicated, because the practical requirements
   are not centralized but delegated down though the local government
   chain, and in some cases jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly
   segregated.

I'm not at all sure what you mean by 

the practical requirements are not centralized

I mean that they are not uniform over the whole country, AIUI. Some AHJs
stick closely to the NEC, some apply their own 'improvements', or so I
have read here.

Furthermore, in the USA, requirements are NOT 

delegated down though the local government chain

Furthermore, there are NO cases where 

jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated.

Depending on the State, building codes are set and enforced by
either the State, the County, or the City.  These are the
jurisdictions. 

That's what I meant by 'delegated'

 There is no jurisdictional overlap or lack 
of clear segregation (at least insofar as building codes are 
concerned).

I'm sure I read here about different attitudes to DIY modifications at
City, County and State levels, each level claiming authority - no
response like 'We don't have jurisdiction; you have to ask City about
that'. 

If that is an urban legend, I have been misled, but no-one challenged it
at the time.

[snip]
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.

2003-01-21 Thread Rich Nute




Hi John:


   The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in
U.S.
   compared to EU.
   
   A very great deal more complicated, because the practical requirements
   are not centralized but delegated down though the local government
   chain, and in some cases jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly
   segregated.

I'm not at all sure what you mean by 

the practical requirements are not centralized

Furthermore, in the USA, requirements are NOT 

delegated down though the local government chain

Furthermore, there are NO cases where 

jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated.

Depending on the State, building codes are set and enforced by
either the State, the County, or the City.  These are the
jurisdictions.  There is no jurisdictional overlap or lack 
of clear segregation (at least insofar as building codes are 
concerned).

Within the Building Code, there is a subset, the Electrical 
Code.

These Codes comprise a Standard for the construction of 
buildings, including the electrical construction of the 
of the building.  Electrical codes typically require the  
individual materials used in the electrical construction,
including appliances, to be certified for safety (Listed)
by safety labs specified in the local code.  There is no 
delegation down through local governments. 

The USA Federal government Department of Labor has a 
separate and independent (from building codes) set of 
safety rules for employees.  One of the rules addresses 
electrical safety in the workplace.  Included in these 
electrical safety rules is a rule specifying that the 
electrical equipment used by employees be Listed (by
a NRTL).  

A jurisidictional overlap may APPEAR to exist between
the electrical code and the DoL OSHA rule.  However, in
practice, both organizations have been very careful not
to tread in the other's jurisdiction.


Best regards,
Rich





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