Re: [Emc-users] 3 to 5 axis milling
No, I was a gunner (155mm), we had conscription in those days. - Original Message - From: "Stuart Stevenson" To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [Emc-users] 3 to 5 axis milling > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Belli Button wrote: >> Well they same that the difference between theory and practice is >> small.. in theory. >> >> I have seen a number of software packages that take a simple 3D toolpath >> and >> convert it to a 5 axis tool path. Theoretically the math is not >> complicated >> as the tangent for the A axis can be calculated from that line of G-code, >> the B axis is a little more complicated as you have to look at the >> preceding >> pass and at the next pass to calculate the tangent. I am sure that if >> one >> of the boffins (and there seems to be a few) on this group got their >> teeth >> into it they could write a small, simple app that would do this >> conversion. >> Granted it wouldn't be perfect but not difficult. It might even be >> possible >> to do this with macro on a spread sheet. >> >> Regards, >> Greg >> >> > Hey Belli - did you graduate from the navel adademy? > > -- > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, > Nevada. > The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.17/1845 - Release Date: 12/12/2008 9:02 AM -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] 3 to 5 axis milling
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Belli Button wrote: > Well they same that the difference between theory and practice is > small.. in theory. > > I have seen a number of software packages that take a simple 3D toolpath and > convert it to a 5 axis tool path. Theoretically the math is not complicated > as the tangent for the A axis can be calculated from that line of G-code, > the B axis is a little more complicated as you have to look at the preceding > pass and at the next pass to calculate the tangent. I am sure that if one > of the boffins (and there seems to be a few) on this group got their teeth > into it they could write a small, simple app that would do this conversion. > Granted it wouldn't be perfect but not difficult. It might even be possible > to do this with macro on a spread sheet. > > Regards, > Greg > > Hey Belli - did you graduate from the navel adademy? -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] 3 to 5 axis milling
Well they same that the difference between theory and practice is small.. in theory. I have seen a number of software packages that take a simple 3D toolpath and convert it to a 5 axis tool path. Theoretically the math is not complicated as the tangent for the A axis can be calculated from that line of G-code, the B axis is a little more complicated as you have to look at the preceding pass and at the next pass to calculate the tangent. I am sure that if one of the boffins (and there seems to be a few) on this group got their teeth into it they could write a small, simple app that would do this conversion. Granted it wouldn't be perfect but not difficult. It might even be possible to do this with macro on a spread sheet. Regards, Greg - Original Message - From: "Stuart Stevenson" To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:48 AM Subject: Re: [Emc-users] 4 to 5 axis milling SW Re: Testing >> One thing to note is that EMC2 removes a fair amount of the complexity >> from 5-axis code generation, specifically tool offsets and the like. >> Once you have a correct kinematics module for your machine, the G-code >> becomes a 5-axis "TOV" - Tool Orientation Vector. The post doesn't have >> to calculate all the joint positions, it tells EMC2 to move the tool >> endpoint to a particular position, at a particular angle, and EMC2 >> (through kinematics) figures out where the joints need to go. That >> calculation includes tool length and diameter offsets, so theoretically >> (and Stuart can tell you more about the reality of it), you can take a >> 5-axis job from one EMC2 machine to another EMC2 machine, and as long as >> the set of supported axes is the same (XYZ AB vs. XYZ BC, for instance), >> you shold be able to run that code, even with a different set of >> available tools. >> >> - Steve >> > Steve, > This deviates from the original subject a little bit. > > dig :) > So far I have been unable to develop (or get developed) the > 5 axis cutter diameter compensation. Some vague argument about the > corner rounding not allowing it. > > suggestion > The answer is to disable the corner rounding during 5 axis > cutter diameter compensation. Then the cutter path compensation could > be generated without concern for the corner rounding (feature). > Also, I would like to be able to disable the corner rounding > (feature) for 3 axis machines and work. > Allow a choice between tool path programming and part > contour programming - for all machines. G code or .ini set. > > Theoretically, 5 axis program portability is there. I have a LOT of > 5 axis programs with tool lengths in them. I haven't tried any yet > (but I surely will). I should be able to adjust the tool length in the > tool table using the in program tool length and the actual tool > length. The important number it the distance from the tool tip to the > pivot point of the rotary axes. If I use a modified tool length in the > tool table that supplies EMC2 the actual length from the pivot point > to the tool tip then any 5 axis program will work. > (hopefully I said this in a logical fashion) > > This should work with any machine that has 5 axis tool length > compensation. A program running on a fanuc control can be run in EMC2 > if the machine limits will allow the machine to move through the > program. > EMC2 programs in fanuc > fidia programs in EMC2 - EMC2 programs in fidia > any gcode program in EMC2 - EMC2 programs in any control running gcode. > > VERY FLEXIBLE > > you may have to modify the prep sections g43 implementation / g54 > ... offsets (some machines use E) / tool change sections /maybe > other sections > the tool positions (XYZABCUVW) should be usable on any machine with 5 > axis tool length compensation > > Steve is correct when he says a lot of the complexity has been > removed (incorporated into the control). Many things can be done that > were previously only on high dollar machines and controls. 5 axis > cutter diameter comp would make EMC2 much more elite. > Stuart > > -- > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, > Nevada. > The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.16/1842 - Release Date: 12/10/2008 6:53 PM -- S
Re: [Emc-users] CNC Newbie Questions.
Add in the motors/controller/power supply, it is about $1100 to 1200 plus shipping. Not to bad. Similar in cost to the others I mentioned earlier. Looks nice. It also looks more pre-assembled than the others. I am guessing it would get something going sooner! I agree, the Vectric software is sweet. I saw a demo of their Aspire software in October. Wow! But not in my toy budget :( It is $1700 as an 'intro special' till the end of the year. Then it goes to $2K. Still, if you need its capability, the Vectric software is cheap. The MechMate I mentioned earlier looks like it runs about $5 to 6K if you have to buy it all new. Probably less if you have a good junk box and scrounging ability. But it is a large format unit. http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66 has a great list of links to places that are 'Websites that Inspire'. You can see lots of examples of what can be done with a CNC machine. ... The list goes on and on from hobby work to fine furniture, carving, etc, etc, etc ... A great thread. It is not a MechMate only kind of thing, there are examples from ShopBot and lots of individuals with other machines too. Len Shelton wrote: > Luke, > > Shameless plug follows... > > Have a look at the FireBall V90: > http://www.probotix.com/FireBall_v90_cnc_router_kit/ > > I guarantee that you will spend WAY more trying to build one from a set of > plans, and you will not get nearly as much performance. We use precision > Thomson rails, acme lead screws, and a commercial grade cast z-axis. > > You can join our Yahoo group and see some of the really amazing things the > guys are making with this machine. > > For CAD/CAM software, there is no easier to use package out there than the > Vectric software. It is windows based, but will run inside of Wine on > Ubuntu. Cut2D will do most of what you will ever need on a 2.5D mill. > > DolphinCAM recently dropped the prices of their software. > > It's unfortunate that no one has an affordable Linux based CAM solution, > yet. > > >> Len >> > > > > > > > > -- > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. > The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] CNC Newbie Questions.
On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 10:31 -0600, Len Shelton wrote: > Luke, > > Shameless plug follows... > > Have a look at the FireBall V90: > http://www.probotix.com/FireBall_v90_cnc_router_kit/ > ...snip Is there a link to information on how to connect your machine to EMC2? > It's unfortunate that no one has an affordable Linux based CAM solution, > yet. I just stumbled on this: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Coders_For_EMC-Compatible_CAM maybe sooner than never we (editorial we) can get a critical mass and make it happen. --- Kirk http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] CNC Newbie Questions.
Luke, Shameless plug follows... Have a look at the FireBall V90: http://www.probotix.com/FireBall_v90_cnc_router_kit/ I guarantee that you will spend WAY more trying to build one from a set of plans, and you will not get nearly as much performance. We use precision Thomson rails, acme lead screws, and a commercial grade cast z-axis. You can join our Yahoo group and see some of the really amazing things the guys are making with this machine. For CAD/CAM software, there is no easier to use package out there than the Vectric software. It is windows based, but will run inside of Wine on Ubuntu. Cut2D will do most of what you will ever need on a 2.5D mill. DolphinCAM recently dropped the prices of their software. It's unfortunate that no one has an affordable Linux based CAM solution, yet. >Len -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] CNC Newbie Questions.
Luke Scharf wrote: > John Kasunich wrote: >> I could go on and on... what about coolant? Metal cutting almost >> demands some form of coolant or cutting lube. Even if you are just >> hitting the work with a spritz of WD-40 every so often, it makes a >> mess that needs to be totally cleaned up before putting wood on the >> machine. >> > > I think I'll drop the idea of working with metal, for now -- that's > not a pressing need. > > I've been looking at the website for solsylva home-built machines, and > they look simple and cheap enough that it's a way I could get started > learning the technology on a system that can do useful things, without > blowing the budget. It doesn't look like it could do metal, but it > looks like I could build it for a reasonable investment in > time-and-money and see how it ends up from there. > > It looks like I could make some really neat wooden/plastic parts with > the 13x13 fixed-gantry machine or maybe more with one of the bigger > machines. If I were to build the wrong machine, it looks like I could > reuse most of the parts that I would buy. If I really need to do > metal, I can re-evaluate my needs at that point. > Also, I currently have a Dremel, a trim-router, and a plunge-router, > any one of which that I'd be happy to sacrifice for a project like this. > > Does this seem like a good way to get started? > > Thanks, > -Luke > Luke, You might go look at the buildyourcnc.com site. ... My favorite site to drule over is shopbottools.com. If you are looking at something in inexpensive kit form, take a look at either buildyourcnc.com or mikebeck.org ... Mike charges about $500 for the gantry kit and $500 for the electronics and motors. Patrick at buildyourcnc.com is a little more, but the rig is a little larger. I suggest reviewing both of their sites. There are other good ones out there, but for folks with a more limited budget, these are some of the best I have seen. buildyourcnc.com is basically a 4'x2' milling surface, with an upgrade option to 4'x8' - with the big option I suggest getting the 4th stepper and lead screw to use 2 on the long axis. For the real DIY and want a heavy duty (and heavy) rig, check out mechmate.com -- free plans on making a commercial class rig! Their standard is to use 4 NEMA-34 steppers with 1:3.6 geared shafts, motors rated at about 600 in-oz each seem popular there. No lead screws, but rack and pinion gears instead. Talking with a guy that has done signs for years, he has found his 'wood class' router works well with aluminum. I don't think it would be much with steel. He basically takes shallower cuts , and since he uses a variable speed router, lowers the rpm as well. Talking with folks at ShopBottools.com, it seems that a favorite replacement router is a 3.5hp class Milwaukee. It is slightly smaller than the PorterCable, but it is variable speed and makes the shop quieter. They are about the same price ($3-400 or so). If you are planning to do a LOT of MDF, Patrick at buildyourcnc.com suggests diamond coated rather than carbide bits. They seem to last longer for him. He cuts a lot of MDF. A good place to look for bits is onsrud.com -- not cheap but good and data on tool selection on their web site is great whether or not you use their tools. Onsrud also makes commercial class routers. I hope this might help some ... No, I have not purchased from any of these directly, and get no consideration from them either. They seem like straight up folks from talking with them. ... Jack -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] 4 to 5 axis milling SW Re: Testing
Dirk wrote: > Yes, this sounds very simple. So, maybe I have to imagine parts as if they > are trapped in a sphere and "only" the outside has to be removed. Something > like Michelango did: he only had to remove the marble on the outside because > the statue was already on the inside. Sorry, can't find the exact quote. > Also milling from different faces is easy: Just rotate your drawing, export as DXF, use something like dxf2gcode and glue the whole thing together with some manual G-code to rotate the workpiece to show the correct face to mill. But finishing the inside of a cylinder with a conical mill is a bit different: you need to rotate the AB axes in such a way that the wall of the cylinder is in line with the angle of the conical cutter. Milling pockets with an undercut is also not possible using Michel Angelo's rule since you need to remove material on the inside. Being able to think in 3D is a must - I guess that's what Michel A. means: once you know how to handle 5 axes it is easy but for someone who does not it looks like magic :) Regards, Rob -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] 4 to 5 axis milling SW Re: Testing
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 6:03 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > the '5 axis thing' IS conceptually simple. The tool axis motion is > spherical with the tool tip at the center of the sphere. The radius of > the sphere is the distance from the tool tip to the pivot axis of the > rotary axis the spindle is riding on. > the application of the concept is detailed but not magic and not very > complicated. > Yes, this sounds very simple. So, maybe I have to imagine parts as if they are trapped in a sphere and "only" the outside has to be removed. Something like Michelango did: he only had to remove the marble on the outside because the statue was already on the inside. Sorry, can't find the exact quote. Dirk -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] 4 to 5 axis milling SW Re: Testing
> > One thing to note is that EMC2 removes a fair amount of the complexity > from 5-axis code generation, specifically tool offsets and the like. > Once you have a correct kinematics module for your machine, the G-code > becomes a 5-axis "TOV" - Tool Orientation Vector. The post doesn't have > to calculate all the joint positions, it tells EMC2 to move the tool > endpoint to a particular position, at a particular angle, and EMC2 > (through kinematics) figures out where the joints need to go. That > calculation includes tool length and diameter offsets, so theoretically > (and Stuart can tell you more about the reality of it), you can take a > 5-axis job from one EMC2 machine to another EMC2 machine, and as long as > the set of supported axes is the same (XYZ AB vs. XYZ BC, for instance), > you shold be able to run that code, even with a different set of > available tools. > Interesting, does this mean that 5 axis machines with fanuc/heidenhain/whatever controls work different? Dirk -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
