Re: [Emc-users] Need MESA 5i25 + 7i77 in EU quickly

[Maximilian H]

Hello Marius,

I always order mine from Lascar Elektronik in Germany. If you are lucky
then they have something in stock.

www.lascar.com
+49 7459 1271

BR+Good luck
Max.



>  Does somebody have spare kit in EU? Need it in Lithuania.
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Beaglebone LinuxCNC starterkit -> Beaglebone Black

[Troy Jacobson]

I'm looking forward to using the new image, and being able to get a monitor
and keyboard on the BBB.  But I want to get a few prints from the printer
before making that change, so that wont happen for a few days.

I was having difficulty determining the PID settings for my extruder
heater, mostly getting a lot of overshoot during the initial heating.  So I
wrote a hal component in Python based on the auto tune functionality in the
Marlin firmware.  It did a pretty good job for me.  I can send it to anyone
who is interested.  It's my first attempt at PID tuning, so I don't know
how good it is.


Also, a question regarding the pid component.  It looks to me from the
documentation and experimentation that the maxerror parameters apply to the
error before the gain is applied.  Is this correct?

I'll probably take a stab at implementing M109 and M190, unless someone
else has done so already.



On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Michael Haberler wrote:

>
> Am 15.07.2013 um 15:27 schrieb Klemen Dovrtel :
>
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> > I have the linuxcnc beaglebone black up and running. I tested same
> simple hal setup with led blinking and it works fine. I am impressed :)
> >
> > I set the base-thread to 100 ns (1ms) - this is what i found in
> other BB hal configurations which were already loaded on the sd card. Is
> there a latency test that i can run on the beaglebone board - i am not
> using GUI, so i can not test the latency with the axis GUI? Is this 100
> ns the number i should use?
>
> Please see the xenomai wiki for details; also the linuxcnc wiki has some
> information on this (look for 'dohell')
>
> you can always point the DISPLAY environment variable to some other X
> server which has access open (see xhost) and run GUI this way if you want
> to see the linuxcnc latency-test at work
>
>
> > What other hardware is already supported beside gpio. Can i use i2c,
> adc, etc. Are there hal modules already written for this? How can i compile
> my own hal modules - i assume the compiler is not supplied with the sd card?
>
> You can use the existing drivers like adc and others from a user HAL
> component, as Charles has done for temperature readout into HAL pins - see
> his configs
>
> This should work for other drivers as well AS LONG AS YOU DONT REQUIRE
> THEM TO BE REALTIME - note any read(2)/write(2) system calls will usually
> kill RT performance
>
> if you require RT from an existing peripheral , you have essentially only
> the option to disable the driver, map the driver registers into userland,
> and 'do it yourself' through register manipulation; this is what
> hal_bb_gpio does.  The trick is similar for other drivers; addresses vary
> according to hardware.
>
> An RT-capable HAL SPI driver for the BB would be a welcome contribution;
> see the raspberry SPI driver by Gemi Orcullo (picnc on code.google.com)
> for inspiration.
>
>
> > Is there common beagle bone resource page somewhere - I could not find
> it at linuxcnc web site?
>
> as of now, I'd say Charles' blog and some beaglebone wiki entries are all
> we have
>
> - Michael
>
> >
> > Best Regards
> > Klemen
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] hm2 - pwmgen vs 3pwmgen for BLDCs

[Jon Elson]

propcoder wrote:
> 2013.07.15 21:56, N. Christopher Perry rašė:
>   
>> You should be able to do that.  It does make shot-through a little easier to 
>> manage.  Also, there are 3-phase gate drive controllers that will manage the 
>> gate timing for you. Do a google search for them.  Fairchild and IRF have a 
>> range of them.
>> 
> What do you mean by gate timing? I use IRAM module from IRF. It has 
> internal protection from shoot-through, it adds dead times by itself.
>
>   
Yes, and at the switching frequencies desired for small, fast, servo 
motors, and
with the slow turn-on and turn-off of IGBTs, the dead time may be very
excessive.

Here's a little illustration.  I built a brushless servo amp using a 
six-step drive
scheme, using the single-chip IR FET driver for all 6 transistors.  I 
had earlier
made a brush servo amp using IR's half-bridge driver chip, the IR2113,
which is rated at 2 A of gate drive, but actually close reading of the 
datasheet
shows it is more like 1.6 A.  This worked well.  The 6-channel driver, 
however
is rated at 0.6A, but close reading reveals you only get 200mA for sure!
This slowed the turn-on/off of the FETs so much that it really impacted
the servo loop performance.  I tried a few tricks, like making variants
of the amp with big and small transistors, inverse deadband in the PID,
and all sorts of stuff, but none of it worked very well.  The version 
with the
"big" transistors needed 800 ns of deadtime, which cuts into the total of
20 us PWM period.  Then, I made a new version of the servo amp
using single half-bridge FET drivers with about 1.6 A drive, and
the performance of the whole servo loop was remarkably improved!
The main difference, as far as I can tell, was the reduction of the
deadtime.

I'm guessing with typical IGBTs, your deadtime may run to several us.
Fine for a 60 Hz motor drive, not fast enough for a drive that may
need to deliver several hundred Hz to a low-inductance motor.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] emco compact 5pc lathe and linuxcnc (no mods to original control)

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 15 July 2013 20:18:48 sam sokolik did opine:

> one more..
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7skJhKzU7Y
> 
> Dad is having too much fun...
> 
> sam
> 
Looks kewl Sam, and quieter than my steppers by quite a bit when doing a 
similar job.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] emco compact 5pc lathe and linuxcnc (no mods to original control)

[sam sokolik]

one more..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7skJhKzU7Y

Dad is having too much fun...

sam

On 07/11/2013 08:43 PM, sam sokolik wrote:
> quick threading video..  (yes - not the correct cutter - and the exit
> move is a bit shallow..  but shows the spindle sync is right on...)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERMizV-yy8U
>
> sam
>
> On 07/11/2013 02:56 PM, sam sokolik wrote:
>> Seems to run nice at 40ipm
>>
>> http://electronicsam.com/images/emco/EMCOThreading.JPG
>>
>> video soon...
>>
>>
>> On 7/9/2013 11:34 AM, sam sokolik wrote:
>>> ok - some cool news I think.  So - with the switch on the interface
>>> board set to off (non step/dir mode)  the control signals are 4 phase
>>> drive.  (seems to be unipolar).  pins 2 through 5 control one axis - 6
>>> through 9 control the other.  I hacked a hal file to setup stepgen to
>>> output 4 phase (patterns 5 through 10).
>>>
>>> First tried pattern 9 (Unipolar Half Step) because the scale was setup
>>> for that.
>>> the performance was the same.  20ipm max and would probably have to back
>>> that off...
>>>
>>> Second was pattern 10 (Bipolar Half Step)  I know - not likely - and it
>>> wasn't.  Didn't like it.
>>>
>>> Third was pattern 5 (Unipolar Full Step)  I halved the axis scales also.
>>> similar performance..  20ipm max.  (and sound so far was pretty crappy)
>>>
>>> fourth was pattern 6 (Unipolar Full Step (two windings on))
>>> Holy crap.  That sounds nice.  maxed out at 30ipm and didn't try any
>>> faster.  Full stepping is .00054ish per step.  Workable for sure.
>>>
>>> That is what the original control/software maxed out at.  I will try
>>> faster when I get a chance.
>>>
>>> That is totally usable with linuxcnc - no mods to the control.  I need
>>> to hook up the index and 100ppr and try some threading!
>>>
>>> One thing to try is - I think I can put the interface board back into
>>> step/dir and full step.  I don't know what pattern it does though.
>>>
>>> sam (happy dancing..)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/8/2013 7:13 AM, sam sokolik wrote:
 We got a few of these lathes from a local school.  they are cute little
 cnc lathes.
 The technology is pretty old though. The steppers are 72 steps per rev.

 I found this
 http://www.maxton.com/ebay/emco/EMCO%20Compact%205PC%20Conversion%20to%20Mach3.pdf

 which talks about converting to mach.  They remove the octal latch and
 jump through it.
 I wanted to see if I could get linuxcnc to drive the board without
 hacking the latch out.

 this is what I have found/figured out

 I think this is correct..  (this is with switch 1 on the interface board
 set to
 'on' which puts the board into step/dir)

 x step pin 2
 x dir pin 3
 z step pin 4
 z dir pin 5
 index pin 12
 estop pin 11
 100 ppr sensor pin 10
 74ls374 enable pin 14
 74ls374 clock pin 1

 I setup linuxcnc to send a pulse at every base period for the 'clock'
 that latched the outputs of the chip. (thanks Jeff E for the idea) this
 is using the
 'reset' option of the printer port that allows for a cycle within each
 base period
 the same feature that makes 'double step' work.  This allows me to
 'latch' the
 74ls374 each base period with the current step/dir pattern.  It seems to
 work

 Now it took me a bit of tinkering to figure out that I didn't read the
 above article
 well enough to notice that you needed to set a switch to put the emco
 interface
 board into step/dir mode.  During this time I was flipping bits on the
 printer port
 to try to figure out why it wasn't working.  I think by default the
 interface is setup
 as phase drive.  (4 phases per stepper)  as I think I was flipping all 8
 data bits on
 the printer port and was getting stepper clunking.

 Well - the performace of these drives/steppers are pretty poor. (assuming
 I have the timing right - and I didn't get too much time to play with
 it.)  In the
 above article they talk about around 20ipm is about max.  That is what I 
 was
 seeing - plus there is a weird interaction when you run both axis at once.
 (they get quite a bit noisier for some reason).  Now it could be that I
 don't quite
 have the timing correct - like maybe the step/dir needs to be inverted or
 or something - I will play with it more.

 I would also like to switch it back to non-step/dir mode.  (phase drive
 maybe?)
 because there might be a reason the original software used it.. (better
 performance?)  plus I think I have the original software and would like
 to try
 it out also.  (need to setup a pure dos machine to test)

 lathe
 http://www.electronicsam.com/images/emco/emcoclose.JPG
 interface/drive
 http://www.electronicsam.com/images/emco/interfaceanddrive.JPG

 sam








 ---

Re: [Emc-users] hm2 - pwmgen vs 3pwmgen for BLDCs

[N. Christopher Perry]

N. Christopher Perry

On Jul 15, 2013, at 15:06, propcoder  wrote:

> 
> 2013.07.15 21:56, N. Christopher Perry rašė:
>> You should be able to do that.  It does make shot-through a little easier to 
>> manage.  Also, there are 3-phase gate drive controllers that will manage the 
>> gate timing for you. Do a google search for them.  Fairchild and IRF have a 
>> range of them.
> What do you mean by gate timing? I use IRAM module from IRF. It has 
> internal protection from shoot-through, it adds dead times by itself.
> 

Ahh...  That makes some things easier.  Another benefit is that some of these 
gate drive modules also manage highside/lowside switching so that all you need 
is to provide a pwm command for each phase and it takes care of all of the 
switching logic.

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Re: [Emc-users] hm2 - pwmgen vs 3pwmgen for BLDCs

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, propcoder wrote:


Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 22:11:44 +0300
From: propcoder 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] hm2 - pwmgen vs 3pwmgen for BLDCs

Does 7i39 have current feedback and control?



The 7I39 has current limit but no current control. The reason it typically 
works better then IGBT based HBridges in voltage mode is that it uses MOSFET 
switches which are faster the IGBTs and therefore has a much shorter deadtime
so there is less distortion (maybe only 10% as much) in the (uncorrected) 
drive waveform.



2013.07.15 21:35, Peter C. Wallace ra:

Motion without feedback (step motor mode) may well be lumpy at the sine wave
zero crossings however, since the drive will remain 0 until the PWM width gets
as big as the deadzone.




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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] hm2 - pwmgen vs 3pwmgen for BLDCs

[propcoder]

Does 7i39 have current feedback and control?

2013.07.15 21:35, Peter C. Wallace rašė:
> Motion without feedback (step motor mode) may well be lumpy at the sine wave
> zero crossings however, since the drive will remain 0 until the PWM width gets
> as big as the deadzone.



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Re: [Emc-users] hm2 - pwmgen vs 3pwmgen for BLDCs

[propcoder]

My plan is to use voltages in a range of 300 to 400VDC. I have such 
motors, besides new high-voltage motors and this servo drive would not 
require additional power supply.

2013.07.15 21:56, N. Christopher Perry rašė:
> Do you really need IGBTs?  Are your voltages/currents high enough to require 
> them. FETs are much easier to work with.



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Re: [Emc-users] hm2 - pwmgen vs 3pwmgen for BLDCs

[propcoder]

2013.07.15 21:56, N. Christopher Perry rašė:
> You should be able to do that.  It does make shot-through a little easier to 
> manage.  Also, there are 3-phase gate drive controllers that will manage the 
> gate timing for you. Do a google search for them.  Fairchild and IRF have a 
> range of them.
What do you mean by gate timing? I use IRAM module from IRF. It has 
internal protection from shoot-through, it adds dead times by itself.


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Re: [Emc-users] hm2 - pwmgen vs 3pwmgen for BLDCs

[N. Christopher Perry]

N. Christopher Perry

On Jul 15, 2013, at 14:13, propcoder  wrote:

> I am thinking of my misfortune with IRAM IGBT module and BLDC motors. As 
> I wrote earlier  - the motion and torque was not smooth.

Do you really need IGBTs?  Are your voltages/currents high enough to require 
them. FETs are much easier to work with.

> 
> Is there sense to try to commutate lower transistors just on-off and 
> higher ones with sine PWM? If so - can simple hm2 firmware with pwmgens 
> be used for that (instead of 3pwmgens, which do have A-value, B-value 
> and C-value input pins only)?
> 
> Marius
> 
You should be able to do that.  It does make shot-through a little easier to 
manage.  Also, there are 3-phase gate drive controllers that will manage the 
gate timing for you. Do a google search for them.  Fairchild and IRF have a 
range of them.


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Re: [Emc-users] hm2 - pwmgen vs 3pwmgen for BLDCs

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, propcoder wrote:

> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:13:41 +0300
> From: propcoder 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: [Emc-users] hm2 - pwmgen vs 3pwmgen for BLDCs
> 
> I am thinking of my misfortune with IRAM IGBT module and BLDC motors. As
> I wrote earlier  - the motion and torque was not smooth.


Because of the longer dead time on IGBTs, you would need to pre-distort the 
sine waves (add the PWM width of the deadzone, basically a anti-deadzone) to 
get the smoothest motion. On the other hand if you have feedback working well, 
the dead zone crossings should have minimal impact on controlled motion. 
Consider that many systems dont use sine wave drive at all and do OK (+- some 
tics at commutation points)

Motion without feedback (step motor mode) may well be lumpy at the sine wave 
zero crossings however, since the drive will remain 0 until the PWM width gets 
as big as the deadzone.

>
> Is there sense to try to commutate lower transistors just on-off and
> higher ones with sine PWM? If so - can simple hm2 firmware with pwmgens
> be used for that (instead of 3pwmgens, which do have A-value, B-value
> and C-value input pins only)?
>
> Marius


I dont actually think this will help
>
>
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Peter Wallace
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[Emc-users] hm2 - pwmgen vs 3pwmgen for BLDCs

[propcoder]

I am thinking of my misfortune with IRAM IGBT module and BLDC motors. As 
I wrote earlier  - the motion and torque was not smooth.

Is there sense to try to commutate lower transistors just on-off and 
higher ones with sine PWM? If so - can simple hm2 firmware with pwmgens 
be used for that (instead of 3pwmgens, which do have A-value, B-value 
and C-value input pins only)?

Marius


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Re: [Emc-users] Beaglebone LinuxCNC starterkit -> Beaglebone Black

[Michael Haberler]

Am 15.07.2013 um 15:27 schrieb Klemen Dovrtel :

> Hello everybody,
> 
> I have the linuxcnc beaglebone black up and running. I tested same simple hal 
> setup with led blinking and it works fine. I am impressed :)
> 
> I set the base-thread to 100 ns (1ms) - this is what i found in other BB 
> hal configurations which were already loaded on the sd card. Is there a 
> latency test that i can run on the beaglebone board - i am not using GUI, so 
> i can not test the latency with the axis GUI? Is this 100 ns the number i 
> should use?

Please see the xenomai wiki for details; also the linuxcnc wiki has some 
information on this (look for 'dohell')

you can always point the DISPLAY environment variable to some other X server 
which has access open (see xhost) and run GUI this way if you want to see the 
linuxcnc latency-test at work


> What other hardware is already supported beside gpio. Can i use i2c, adc, 
> etc. Are there hal modules already written for this? How can i compile my own 
> hal modules - i assume the compiler is not supplied with the sd card?

You can use the existing drivers like adc and others from a user HAL component, 
as Charles has done for temperature readout into HAL pins - see his configs

This should work for other drivers as well AS LONG AS YOU DONT REQUIRE THEM TO 
BE REALTIME - note any read(2)/write(2) system calls will usually kill RT 
performance

if you require RT from an existing peripheral , you have essentially only the 
option to disable the driver, map the driver registers into userland, and 'do 
it yourself' through register manipulation; this is what hal_bb_gpio does.  The 
trick is similar for other drivers; addresses vary according to hardware.

An RT-capable HAL SPI driver for the BB would be a welcome contribution; see 
the raspberry SPI driver by Gemi Orcullo (picnc on code.google.com) for 
inspiration. 


> Is there common beagle bone resource page somewhere - I could not find it at 
> linuxcnc web site?

as of now, I'd say Charles' blog and some beaglebone wiki entries are all we 
have

- Michael

> 
> Best Regards
> Klemen
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Re: [Emc-users] Beaglebone LinuxCNC starterkit -> Beaglebone Black

[Klemen Dovrtel]

Hello everybody,

I have the linuxcnc beaglebone black up and running. I tested same simple hal 
setup with led blinking and it works fine. I am impressed :)

I set the base-thread to 100 ns (1ms) - this is what i found in other BB 
hal configurations which were already loaded on the sd card. Is there a latency 
test that i can run on the beaglebone board - i am not using GUI, so i can not 
test the latency with the axis GUI? Is this 100 ns the number i should use?

What other hardware is already supported beside gpio. Can i use i2c, adc, etc. 
Are there hal modules already written for this? How can i compile my own hal 
modules - i assume the compiler is not supplied with the sd card?

Is there common beagle bone resource page somewhere - I could not find it at 
linuxcnc web site?

Best Regards
Klemen
--
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Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
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