Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[John Thornton]

Dave, the AD filter came in yesterday and I'm fitting it to the machine 
now. I had to relocate the VFD to the side of the cabinet due to the 
additional height. I also ordered a smaller filter for the DC power 
supply. I wonder if I should put that filter at the beginning of the AC 
circuit or just ahead of the bridge rectifier? I'm still thinking of 
changing to a 4 wire system and pull the 120 off of one leg of the 240 
so I have a single power source for the whole machine.

JT

On 12/25/2015 12:53 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
> John,
>
> Do you have an AC filter on the power lines feeding the GS2 drive?
>
> If not, go to Automation Direct and buy the filter they specify for that
> drive.   You will not regret the purchase.
>
> Don't buy a cheap filter.   The ones that AD has now are good filters.
> I've had similar issues.
>
> Dave
>
> On 12/20/2015 8:20 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I have a BP knee mill with an Anilam 1100M CNC kit on it. I've removed
>> all the Anilam controls a while back. I've retained the drives and power
>> supply and added a GS2 VFD for the spindle. I have a 5i25 7i77 setup.
>>From the get go I've had problems with the electronics on this machine.
>> The VFD is controlled by modbus via the gs2 component. The VFD gets
>> reset to default parameters all the time from noise on the modbus. the
>> 5i25 get sserial errors. The sserial errors are so bad now it won't even
>> move an axis. The spindle works ok. The power supply is a simple bridge
>> rectifier with a huge blue cap and a large power resistor across the cap.
>>
>> Peter keeps telling me it's a grounding issue so where do I start
>> looking and what do I need to do?
>>
>> Thanks
>> JT
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] seasons greetings

[Reggie Crane]

Merry Christmas!

On Thu, Dec 24, 2015, 10:34 PM Jim Craig 
wrote:

> Merry Christmas Gene and everyone else.On Dec 24, 2015 10:17 PM, Gene
> Heskett  wrote:
> >
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > Its that time of the year again, and there not a PC bone in my body, so
> >
> > Merry Christmas everyone!
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] seasons greetings

[Robert Ellenberg]

Merry Christmas all!

https://youtu.be/qEvQLxwp3-A

On Fri, Dec 25, 2015, 9:09 AM Reggie Crane  wrote:

> Merry Christmas!
>
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2015, 10:34 PM Jim Craig 
> wrote:
>
> > Merry Christmas Gene and everyone else.On Dec 24, 2015 10:17 PM, Gene
> > Heskett  wrote:
> > >
> > > Greetings all;
> > >
> > > Its that time of the year again, and there not a PC bone in my body, so
> > >
> > > Merry Christmas everyone!
> > >
> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > > --
> > > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > > Genes Web page 
> > >
> > >
> >
> --
> > > ___
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> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
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>
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[Emc-users] Does anyone here use Qucs?

[Gene Heskett]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] seasons greetings

[joseph perry]

So glad to hear that Gene. Like your quote too. Merry Christmas!
On Dec 24, 2015 8:21 PM, "Gene Heskett"  wrote:

> Greetings all;
>
> Its that time of the year again, and there not a PC bone in my body, so
>
> Merry Christmas everyone!
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Does anyone here use Qucs?

[Vyatcheslav Perevalov]

В Fri, 25 Dec 2015 11:31:02 -0500
Gene Heskett  пишет:

> Cheers, Gene Heskett

I do. Nice simulator IMHO.

-- 
С уважением,
Вячеслав Перевалов

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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[Ed]

On 12/25/2015 04:59 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> Dave, the AD filter came in yesterday and I'm fitting it to the machine
> now. I had to relocate the VFD to the side of the cabinet due to the
> additional height. I also ordered a smaller filter for the DC power
> supply. I wonder if I should put that filter at the beginning of the AC
> circuit or just ahead of the bridge rectifier? I'm still thinking of
> changing to a 4 wire system and pull the 120 off of one leg of the 240
> so I have a single power source for the whole machine.
>
> JT
>
On my CHNC I have a 500VA control transformer to drop 240V to 120V for 
the computer and the monitor. That way I do not have to worry if I have 
pick the wild phase or not.

Ed.


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Re: [Emc-users] seasons greetings

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Feliz navidad para todos ustedes! (Merry Christmas to all of you).

As always thanks for tour support!!
El dic. 25, 2015 2:15 PM, "joseph perry"  escribió:

> So glad to hear that Gene. Like your quote too. Merry Christmas!
> On Dec 24, 2015 8:21 PM, "Gene Heskett"  wrote:
>
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > Its that time of the year again, and there not a PC bone in my body, so
> >
> > Merry Christmas everyone!
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> >
> --
> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
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Re: [Emc-users] seasons greetings

[TJoseph Powderly]

Merry Christmas to all, and special thanks for all the work.

tomp tjtr33

On 12/25/2015 09:10 AM, Robert Ellenberg wrote:
> Merry Christmas all!
>
> https://youtu.be/qEvQLxwp3-A
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[Stephen Dubovsky]

I run my pc and monitor off the 240. Almost all are universal input
nowadays (some pcs require a switch) and have isolated supplies.

On Dec 25, 2015 12:18 PM, "Ed"  wrote:
> On my CHNC I have a 500VA control transformer to drop 240V to 120V for
> the computer and the monitor. That way I do not have to worry if I have
> pick the wild phase or not.
>
> Ed.
>
>
>
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[Emc-users] season's greetings

[Cristian Bontas]

Merry Christmas everyone!
or in the native tongue:
Craciun fericit tuturor!

And may we all greet each other for many years to come.

Cristian Bontas

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anyone here use Qucs?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 25 December 2015 11:56:09 Vyatcheslav Perevalov wrote:

> В Fri, 25 Dec 2015 11:31:02 -0500
>
> Gene Heskett  пишет:
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> I do. Nice simulator IMHO.

Would you be open to answering some beginning dummies questions?

Thank you, Vyatcheslav Perevalov.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[Dave Cole]

On 12/25/2015 5:59 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> I wonder if I should put that filter at the beginning of the AC
> circuit or just ahead of the bridge rectifier?

I think I would put it prior to the transformer that feeds the bridge 
rectifier, if that makes sense.

That AD VFDs tend to broadcast serious noise back into the AC line.   
I've seen the VFD noise go right through AC to DC power supplies.

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[John Thornton]

Just looking through my supplies and I find a Hevi-Duty 240v -120v 
0.95KVA transformer... gotta make room for it in the VFD cabinet and get 
rid if the 120v plug in.

JT

On 12/25/2015 10:51 AM, Ed wrote:
> On 12/25/2015 04:59 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Dave, the AD filter came in yesterday and I'm fitting it to the machine
>> now. I had to relocate the VFD to the side of the cabinet due to the
>> additional height. I also ordered a smaller filter for the DC power
>> supply. I wonder if I should put that filter at the beginning of the AC
>> circuit or just ahead of the bridge rectifier? I'm still thinking of
>> changing to a 4 wire system and pull the 120 off of one leg of the 240
>> so I have a single power source for the whole machine.
>>
>> JT
>>
> On my CHNC I have a 500VA control transformer to drop 240V to 120V for
> the computer and the monitor. That way I do not have to worry if I have
> pick the wild phase or not.
>
> Ed.
>
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[John Thornton]

The bridge rectifier is connected to 120v so no transformer is there... 
not sure how it gets 190vdc out of 120vac but it does. Now to find some 
fuses for it... may be Tuesday before I can use that.

JT

On 12/25/2015 12:34 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> On 12/25/2015 5:59 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I wonder if I should put that filter at the beginning of the AC
>> circuit or just ahead of the bridge rectifier?
> I think I would put it prior to the transformer that feeds the bridge
> rectifier, if that makes sense.
>
> That AD VFDs tend to broadcast serious noise back into the AC line.
> I've seen the VFD noise go right through AC to DC power supplies.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[John Thornton]

I just realized that putting the control transformer in and I would not 
need to pull a neutral for my 120v side! Now to get off $40 for fuses 
for the dang thing.

JT

On 12/25/2015 12:45 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> Just looking through my supplies and I find a Hevi-Duty 240v -120v
> 0.95KVA transformer... gotta make room for it in the VFD cabinet and get
> rid if the 120v plug in.
>
> JT
>
> On 12/25/2015 10:51 AM, Ed wrote:
>> On 12/25/2015 04:59 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>>> Dave, the AD filter came in yesterday and I'm fitting it to the machine
>>> now. I had to relocate the VFD to the side of the cabinet due to the
>>> additional height. I also ordered a smaller filter for the DC power
>>> supply. I wonder if I should put that filter at the beginning of the AC
>>> circuit or just ahead of the bridge rectifier? I'm still thinking of
>>> changing to a 4 wire system and pull the 120 off of one leg of the 240
>>> so I have a single power source for the whole machine.
>>>
>>> JT
>>>
>> On my CHNC I have a 500VA control transformer to drop 240V to 120V for
>> the computer and the monitor. That way I do not have to worry if I have
>> pick the wild phase or not.
>>
>> Ed.
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[Ed]

On 12/25/2015 12:59 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> I just realized that putting the control transformer in and I would not
> need to pull a neutral for my 120v side! Now to get off $40 for fuses
> for the dang thing.
>
> JT
>
That is the main reason in industry, fewer wires and mains isolation.

I cut off the plug on a power strip and wired that directly to the 
control transformer.

Ed.


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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[John Dammeyer]

The AC voltage we talk about is called an RMS or Root Mean Square voltage.  

For example 10VDC across a 10 Ohm resistor results in 1A DC current.  The
resistor will dissipate 10W  (IxV).

The RMS AC voltage is the equivalent to the DC voltage for power
calculations.  So 10VAC across the 10 Ohm resistor will also result in 1A
RMS.  But the power will be 10W.  Really handy to know that for choosing the
wattage of the power resistor.

But because the AC varies, it's both below, down to 0 and above, up to the
peak value.  The peak is calculated by multiplying the RMS value by the
square root of 2 or 1.414;  120V x 1.414 = 170V peak.  Given that the AC
line can surge up as high as 135V you have to design for 135 x 1.414 = 190V.

John Dammeyer


> -Original Message-
> From: John Thornton [mailto:j...@gnipsel.com]
> Sent: December-25-15 10:49 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues
> 
> 
> The bridge rectifier is connected to 120v so no transformer is there...
> not sure how it gets 190vdc out of 120vac but it does. Now to find some
> fuses for it... may be Tuesday before I can use that.
> 
> JT
> 
> On 12/25/2015 12:34 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> > On 12/25/2015 5:59 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> >> I wonder if I should put that filter at the beginning of the AC
> >> circuit or just ahead of the bridge rectifier?
> > I think I would put it prior to the transformer that feeds the bridge
> > rectifier, if that makes sense.
> >
> > That AD VFDs tend to broadcast serious noise back into the AC line.
> > I've seen the VFD noise go right through AC to DC power supplies.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >

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> 
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 25 December 2015 13:48:52 John Thornton wrote:

> The bridge rectifier is connected to 120v so no transformer is
> there... not sure how it gets 190vdc out of 120vac but it does. Now to
> find some fuses for it... may be Tuesday before I can use that.
>
> JT

That is a puzzle John, the best DC I can get out of that with kcalc, 
assuming a perfect bridge rectifier feeding a capacitor input filter is 
179 volts & change.  Assuming a 127 volt, more or less standard AC input 
that is.

> On 12/25/2015 12:34 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> > On 12/25/2015 5:59 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> >> I wonder if I should put that filter at the beginning of the AC
> >> circuit or just ahead of the bridge rectifier?
> >
> > I think I would put it prior to the transformer that feeds the
> > bridge rectifier, if that makes sense.
> >
> > That AD VFDs tend to broadcast serious noise back into the AC line.
> > I've seen the VFD noise go right through AC to DC power supplies.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > 
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 25 December 2015 13:59:32 John Thornton wrote:

> I just realized that putting the control transformer in and I would
> not need to pull a neutral for my 120v side! Now to get off $40 for
> fuses for the dang thing.
>
> JT

Correct, you can use either side as neutral, or even, if it has a 
centertap on that winding, ground it to earth and feed a 63.5 volt AC 
from the ends of the winding up to each side of the monitor and 
computers duplex socket.  Thats still 127 volts AC across the cpu & 
monitor. If the supplies in both are clean as far as ground leakage, 
you'll be, as we used to say when putting Titan rockets together, fat, 
dumb and happy.  The fat actually stood for factory acceptance tested.
>
> On 12/25/2015 12:45 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> > Just looking through my supplies and I find a Hevi-Duty 240v -120v
> > 0.95KVA transformer... gotta make room for it in the VFD cabinet and
> > get rid if the 120v plug in.
> >
> > JT
> >
> > On 12/25/2015 10:51 AM, Ed wrote:
> >> On 12/25/2015 04:59 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> >>> Dave, the AD filter came in yesterday and I'm fitting it to the
> >>> machine now. I had to relocate the VFD to the side of the cabinet
> >>> due to the additional height. I also ordered a smaller filter for
> >>> the DC power supply. I wonder if I should put that filter at the
> >>> beginning of the AC circuit or just ahead of the bridge rectifier?
> >>> I'm still thinking of changing to a 4 wire system and pull the 120
> >>> off of one leg of the 240 so I have a single power source for the
> >>> whole machine.
> >>>
> >>> JT
> >>
> >> On my CHNC I have a 500VA control transformer to drop 240V to 120V
> >> for the computer and the monitor. That way I do not have to worry
> >> if I have pick the wild phase or not.
> >>
> >> Ed.
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 12/25/2015 11:05 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> The bridge rectifier is connected to 120v so no transformer is
>> there... not sure how it gets 190vdc out of 120vac but it does. Now to
>> find some fuses for it... may be Tuesday before I can use that.
> That is a puzzle John, the best DC I can get out of that with kcalc, 
> assuming a perfect bridge rectifier feeding a capacitor input filter is 
> 179 volts & change.  Assuming a 127 volt, more or less standard AC input 
> that is.

A transformer's output voltage is rated at the rated load. If you are
not loading the transformer at the rated power, then you will usually
see between 10% and 30% higher output voltage. The amount of increase
depends on the quality of the transformer.

So, the DC conversion at (almost) no load will be between 120 * sqrt(2)
* 1.1 = 186V and 120 * sqrt(2) * 1.3 = 220V. Taking account for a 2..3V
droop at the bridge-rectifier would mean anything between 183...217V
would be quite normal at 120V AC input.


-- 
Greetings Bertho

(disclaimers are disclaimed)

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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[John Thornton]

There is no transformer in there...

On 12/25/2015 4:19 PM, Bertho Stultiens wrote:
> On 12/25/2015 11:05 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> The bridge rectifier is connected to 120v so no transformer is
>>> there... not sure how it gets 190vdc out of 120vac but it does. Now to
>>> find some fuses for it... may be Tuesday before I can use that.
>> That is a puzzle John, the best DC I can get out of that with kcalc,
>> assuming a perfect bridge rectifier feeding a capacitor input filter is
>> 179 volts & change.  Assuming a 127 volt, more or less standard AC input
>> that is.
> A transformer's output voltage is rated at the rated load. If you are
> not loading the transformer at the rated power, then you will usually
> see between 10% and 30% higher output voltage. The amount of increase
> depends on the quality of the transformer.
>
> So, the DC conversion at (almost) no load will be between 120 * sqrt(2)
> * 1.1 = 186V and 120 * sqrt(2) * 1.3 = 220V. Taking account for a 2..3V
> droop at the bridge-rectifier would mean anything between 183...217V
> would be quite normal at 120V AC input.
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 12/25/2015 11:25 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> There is no transformer in there...

Ah, sorry about that...
The second variable should then be considered, mains tolerance.

The usual tolerance of the mains line is between +20% and -30%. If that
seems large, it is. If you ask the company what you may expect, they
will be very reluctant to give you an answer. The point is that the
mains is geared to deliver a resonably constant frequency at the cost of
voltage accuracy.

The tolerance depends on topology and differs from where you are located
from the nearest transformer, how many connections are shared on the
transformer(s) and how the line is loaded along the way when it gets
home to you.


I actually measured the mains line at work once over a period of 7 days
(15s interval) because we were having trouble with a mercury lamp that
was not constant in intensity. The delivery company did not wish to be
bound to any "hard" values and said that there is no guarantee for the
actual voltage. They try to keep it within +/-15%, but cannot guarantee
it due to line topology.

The measurements I took showed very nicely how the grid "wakes up" in
the morning and "enters sleep" in the evening. The voltage starts high
early and starts to drop and jumps up whenever the delivery company adds
a generator to compensate. The opposite happens late in the evening. The
variability was arround the +/-15%.

-- 
Greetings Bertho

(disclaimers are disclaimed)

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[Emc-users] Rewiring the BP

[John Thornton]

I think a fresh thread is in order for this ordeal.

I'm starting at the plug... I dug up some 10-3 SO cord and wired the 
plug and brought that into the left cabinet. Landed the wires on some 
terminal blocks with the DIN rail bolted to the cabinet with star 
washers between the DIN rail and the cabinet. I also scraped the paint 
off the cabinet in that area. Ground terminal blocks surround the 
distribution terminal blocks (two blocks tied together). I'm also making 
a print of the wiring as I go along. So from the distribution blocks the 
240v goes to the VFD filter and the control transformer. I have a second 
filter for the 120v side, should that go just after the control transformer?

JT

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Re: [Emc-users] Grounding Issues

[John Thornton]

I have my own personal pad mounted transformer, all underground wire 
back in the woods. My memory might be wrong about the voltage... can't 
check it now because I can't get the 5i25 to come on line.

JT

On 12/25/2015 4:48 PM, Bertho Stultiens wrote:
> On 12/25/2015 11:25 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> There is no transformer in there...
> Ah, sorry about that...
> The second variable should then be considered, mains tolerance.
>
> The usual tolerance of the mains line is between +20% and -30%. If that
> seems large, it is. If you ask the company what you may expect, they
> will be very reluctant to give you an answer. The point is that the
> mains is geared to deliver a resonably constant frequency at the cost of
> voltage accuracy.
>
> The tolerance depends on topology and differs from where you are located
> from the nearest transformer, how many connections are shared on the
> transformer(s) and how the line is loaded along the way when it gets
> home to you.
>
>
> I actually measured the mains line at work once over a period of 7 days
> (15s interval) because we were having trouble with a mercury lamp that
> was not constant in intensity. The delivery company did not wish to be
> bound to any "hard" values and said that there is no guarantee for the
> actual voltage. They try to keep it within +/-15%, but cannot guarantee
> it due to line topology.
>
> The measurements I took showed very nicely how the grid "wakes up" in
> the morning and "enters sleep" in the evening. The voltage starts high
> early and starts to drop and jumps up whenever the delivery company adds
> a generator to compensate. The opposite happens late in the evening. The
> variability was arround the +/-15%.
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 12/25/2015 11:51 PM, John Thornton wrote:
[snip]
> So from the distribution blocks the
> 240v goes to the VFD filter and the control transformer. I have a second 
> filter for the 120v side, should that go just after the control transformer?

Could you make a (quick and dirty) drawing?

The mains filter should normally be on the primary side, not the
secondary. A mains filter is to prevent injection back into the grid.

If I understand you correctly, you want to do following:


[240V mains]--+--[vfd filter]--[VFD controller]--[spindle]
  |
  +--[mains filter]--[ctl transformer]--[control]

The interesting part in now how earth is connected in the "VFD
controller" and the "control". If the GND of both are connected to earth
(internally), then you will create a loop and all hell may break loose.

-- 
Greetings Bertho

(disclaimers are disclaimed)

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anyone here use Qucs?

[Jack Coats]

That is what this list is for.  Remember, if you have a question, someone
else probably does too.

If you get too obnoxious someone will give you a hint.

On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Friday 25 December 2015 11:56:09 Vyatcheslav Perevalov wrote:
>
> > В Fri, 25 Dec 2015 11:31:02 -0500
> >
> > Gene Heskett  пишет:
> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >
> > I do. Nice simulator IMHO.
>
> Would you be open to answering some beginning dummies questions?
>
> Thank you, Vyatcheslav Perevalov.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
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>



-- 
><> ... Jack

The Four Boxes of Liberty - "There are four boxes to be used in the defense
of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order."
"Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart"... Colossians 3:23
"Anyone who has never made a mistake, has never tried anything new." -
Albert Einstein
"You don't manage people; you manage things. You lead people." - Admiral
Grace Hopper, USN

"The most dangerous phrase in the language is, We’ve always done it this
way"-- Admiral Grace Hopper, USN
"Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn." -
Ben Franklin
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Re: [Emc-users] seasons greetings

[rick]

Same to you Gene, and everyone else, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to 
everyone,  

Hopefully  everyone has a healthy and prosperous new year as well. 

Rick 


 Original Message 
Subject: [Emc-users] seasons greetings
From: "Gene Heskett" 
Date: Thu, December 24, 2015 11:17 pm
To: emc-develop...@lists.sourceforge.net
CC: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net

Greetings all;

Its that time of the year again, and there not a PC bone in my body, so

Merry Christmas everyone!

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP

[John Thornton]

The filter is 115/250v  so it could go on the upstream side of the 
control transformer. I'm not understanding the ground part. I thought 
all grounds go to a common point? Drawing tomorrow...

JT

On 12/25/2015 5:05 PM, Bertho Stultiens wrote:
> On 12/25/2015 11:51 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> [snip]
>> So from the distribution blocks the
>> 240v goes to the VFD filter and the control transformer. I have a second
>> filter for the 120v side, should that go just after the control transformer?
> Could you make a (quick and dirty) drawing?
>
> The mains filter should normally be on the primary side, not the
> secondary. A mains filter is to prevent injection back into the grid.
>
> If I understand you correctly, you want to do following:
>
>
> [240V mains]--+--[vfd filter]--[VFD controller]--[spindle]
>|
>+--[mains filter]--[ctl transformer]--[control]
>
> The interesting part in now how earth is connected in the "VFD
> controller" and the "control". If the GND of both are connected to earth
> (internally), then you will create a loop and all hell may break loose.
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP

[Dave Cole]

There is nothing wrong with what you are doing.

However after you install the drive filter you may find that your issues 
simply go away.

A single point ground setup makes it almost impossible to have 
significant ground loops.

Connect the shields only at one end, preferably the panel end where the 
single point ground lives.

Those grounding blocks/strips that they sell for power panels at Home 
Depot, Lowes, Menards work fine.
GE, Square D, Siemens, etc all sell them.

Dave


On 12/25/2015 6:42 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> The filter is 115/250v  so it could go on the upstream side of the
> control transformer. I'm not understanding the ground part. I thought
> all grounds go to a common point? Drawing tomorrow...
>
> JT
>
> On 12/25/2015 5:05 PM, Bertho Stultiens wrote:
>> On 12/25/2015 11:51 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> So from the distribution blocks the
>>> 240v goes to the VFD filter and the control transformer. I have a second
>>> filter for the 120v side, should that go just after the control transformer?
>> Could you make a (quick and dirty) drawing?
>>
>> The mains filter should normally be on the primary side, not the
>> secondary. A mains filter is to prevent injection back into the grid.
>>
>> If I understand you correctly, you want to do following:
>>
>>
>> [240V mains]--+--[vfd filter]--[VFD controller]--[spindle]
>> |
>> +--[mains filter]--[ctl transformer]--[control]
>>
>> The interesting part in now how earth is connected in the "VFD
>> controller" and the "control". If the GND of both are connected to earth
>> (internally), then you will create a loop and all hell may break loose.
>>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 12/26/2015 12:42 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> [240V mains]--+--[vfd filter]--[VFD controller]--[spindle]
>>   |
>>   +--[mains filter]--[ctl transformer]--[control]
>> The interesting part in now how earth is connected in the "VFD
>> controller" and the "control". If the GND of both are connected to earth
>> (internally), then you will create a loop and all hell may break loose.
> The filter is 115/250v  so it could go on the upstream side of the 
> control transformer. I'm not understanding the ground part. I thought 
> all grounds go to a common point? Drawing tomorrow...

The filter, as I mentioned, is to prevent injection into the mains line,
so it should be on that side. Please note that those filters have an
orientation (input/output).

The grounding is actually a bit more complicated.

There is a difference between ground (GND) and earth. Ground is the 0V
(reference) potential used in the electronics, whereas earth is the
protective shield potential we are walking on.

Background on earth: The mains has a central point connected to earth,
either at or near 0V (AC) potential. It is used as a protection for when
your equipment fails. When the L/N lines are unbalanced (differential
current), then the RCD/RCCD(*) will trip and cut the power. The second
way (without RCD) for earth to protect is when it is shorted to L, which
causes a current very much greater than the fuse can handle and is blown
by the short. The third reason for ground is that it can absorb any and
all noise because the earth is big (and therefore a great filtering
capacitor).


Now if the VFD controller has an earth connection that also happens to
be connected to GND. And, at the same time a controller with an earth
and a GND connection to earth, then you will create a loop:

[   ]---+
 +--[VFD ctl]   |
 |  [   ]+  |
 |   |  |
 |   |  |
 |  [   ]-signal-+  |
 +--[  ctlr ]   |
 |  [   ]--GND--+
 |
---
 -
earth

If both devices have GND (internally) connected to earth, then there is
no way of knowing which way the current will flow and you have a
ground-loop. Ground-loops are notorious because both capacitive and
inductive coupling can induce high currents that can destroy your
equipment at worst. Or they can interfere with proper operation by
introducing transients into the control electronics.

If this is the case, then you must break the loop. You can often measure
if there is a earth/GND connection with a multimeter for each device
separately (while not connected). Sometimes you have a capacitive
coupling, which can be a pain too (another story).

For all digitally controlled systems, you often break the loop by using
opto-coupling or RF-coupling on the signals, such that you no longer
require the common GND connection.


(*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

-- 
Greetings Bertho

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[Emc-users] mains voltage

[Greg Bentzinger]

I was always told "Never rectify straight from AC mains without an isolation 
transformer."
Bad Karma - Bad Ju ju - will come back to bite you.

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