[Emc-users] limit3 proper use?

2016-04-14 Thread Gene Heskett 
Greetings all;

I haven't been able to spend time on tuning the mill for best performance 
while pecking a G33.1 recently as my back is limiting what I can do, and 
what I have been doing is some troubleshooting of the local daytimers 
transmitter.  It turned out the schematic being used to service it for 
the last 50 years has an error in how the modulators driver stage is 
wired, and someone back in prehistory tried to make the wiring look like 
the erroneous schematic.  But I am good with that sort of thing and I 
believe I have it wired a lot closer to proper than it has been in the 
last 25 years.  rive is now much better balanced, and so is the color of 
the tubes at full song.
Anyway, while playing with the mill, specifically with the limit3's maxv, 
which shapes the direction reversal ramp delivered to the PID, I found 
that raising the value gave me axis 2 following errors.  Re-reading the 
manpage, I now understand that larger values actually steepen the ramp, 
and I finally overpowered the Z axis's ability to accelerate and keep 
up.  Duh.

So this question  follows: I am not not setting a maxa since I am not a 
derivitive's math genius:  Would it be advantageous to do so?, and if 
so, is there a "rule of thumb" for a suggested starting value?  That 
manpage is a  bit sparse.  It seems to me the axis acceleration worst 
case is at the ends of the applied ramp, and that rounding the corners 
there might be a good idea.  Ideally, the ramp should look more like one 
side of a "sine squared" signal that we used in the NTSC broadcasting 
days.  That would imply a value nominally 2x the maxv?

Am I on the right track?

Thanks a bunch.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] MPG with dynamic scale

2016-04-14 Thread Frederic Rible 

Le 10/04/2016 15:02, Andy Pugh a écrit :
> I would use "lincurve" with velocity as   input and jog scale as output.
>
>
@Andy: thanks, lincurve is doing the job.
Easier than scale/limit1 combination.

# Jog wheels section
net jog-enable halui.mode.is-manual

newinst lincurve lincurve.0 pincount=2
newinst lincurve lincurve.1 pincount=2
addf lincurve.0 servo-thread
addf lincurve.1 servo-thread

# Acceleration curve for MPG
# 0-30   : 0.01
# 30-130 : linear ramp 0.01 -> 0.1
# 130-  : 0.1
setp lincurve.0.x-val-00 30
setp lincurve.0.y-val-00 0.01
setp lincurve.0.x-val-01 130
setp lincurve.0.y-val-01 0.1

setp lincurve.1.x-val-00 30
setp lincurve.1.y-val-00 0.01
setp lincurve.1.x-val-01 130
setp lincurve.1.y-val-01 0.1

# MPG X PRU encoder
setp hpg.encoder.00.chan.00.A-pin 2  #930 ENCyI
setp hpg.encoder.00.chan.00.B-pin 5  #927 eQ0B
setp hpg.encoder.00.chan.00.counter-mode 3 #Quadrature x1 count mode 
(HAL encoder x1 mode)

net jog-counts-x hpg.encoder.00.chan.00.rawcounts => axis.0.jog-counts
net jog-enable => axis.0.jog-enable
setp axis.0.jog-vel-mode 1
net jx1 hpg.encoder.00.chan.00.velocity-abs => lincurve.0.in
net jx2 lincurve.0.out => axis.0.jog-scale

# MPG Z PRU encoder
setp hpg.encoder.00.chan.01.A-pin 0  #931 ENCyA
setp hpg.encoder.00.chan.01.B-pin 1  #929 ENCyB
setp hpg.encoder.00.chan.01.counter-mode 3 #Quadrature x1 count mode 
(HAL encoder x1 mode)

net jog-counts-z hpg.encoder.00.chan.01.rawcounts => axis.2.jog-counts
net jog-enable => axis.2.jog-enable
setp axis.2.jog-vel-mode 1
net jz1 hpg.encoder.00.chan.01.velocity-abs => lincurve.1.in
net jz2 lincurve.1.out => axis.2.jog-scale



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Re: [Emc-users] FPGA firmware for SoC's - please watch https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga

2016-04-14 Thread W. Martinjak 
glaub ich dir nicht,
dazu kennst du glaube ich die user list zu gut. ;)
bin gespannt wie der thread ausartet. :D



On 2016-04-14 22:03, Michael Haberler wrote:
> sorry for the noise, hit  too early - wrong list
>
>
>> Am 14.04.2016 um 21:07 schrieb Michael Haberler :
>>
>> since the repo https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga has arrived:
>>
>> for those interested in the plumbing of FPGA firmware, please 'watch' this 
>> repo - the issue tracker there is relevant
>>
>> - Michael
>>
>>
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>> of
>> your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
>> reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
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Re: [Emc-users] FPGA firmware for SoC's - please watch https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga

2016-04-14 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
Tried ZVS soft-switching and it should work although not enough time to run on 
real hardware. Then properly configured there should only be need to change 
dead times and peak current value for current mode or phase shift for voltage 
mode. They have special purpose timers with a resolution equal to a frequency 
of a few gigahertz for outputs but not timing of inputs.

These micro controllers are rather new, maybe you have to look once more. I 
however only think they are marginally cheaper than $5 FPGA at best.



> Depends on how you define suitable.  For straight up hard-switched
> boost/buck I would agree.  Try implementing something like phase-shift
> modulation to get 'free' ZVS soft-switching (lower EMI and higher
> efficiency) and I will disagree.  The microcontroller horsepower typically
> isn't lacking but the timer/pwm generators they use usually are.  It
> doesn't take much of a change to build a truly universal pwm generator
> timer but we have to implement them in small fpgas.  FWIW, we can payoff a
> $5 fpga in heatsink and power silicon savings.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Nicklas Karlsson <
> nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > since the repo https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga has arrived:
> > >
> > > for those interested in the plumbing of FPGA firmware, please 'watch'
> > this repo - the issue tracker there is relevant
> > >
> > > - Michael
> >
> > FPGA is fun.
> >
> > Although I think the micro controllers today already have suitable
> > peripherals for control of switched power electronics for a lower price.
> >
> >
> > Nicklas Karlsson
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: [Emc-users] FPGA firmware for SoC's - please watch https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga

2016-04-14 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
I read the doucmentation for machinkit 
http://static.mah.priv.at/public/portable-realtime-API-talk/osadl-rtapi.pdf and 
on page five there is "motion queue" between g-code interpreter and trajectory.

I implemented a stepper driver on external device and with a receive fifo on 
this there will be a queue between kinematics and interpolator. The nice thing 
with this is stepper driver could run smoothly on it's own clock and only 
slowly adapt to kinematics clock. Basically motion could run without noise even 
though there is jitter on received data.


Regards Nicklas Karlsson



On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:55:30 -0400
Stephen Dubovsky  wrote:

> Depends on how you define suitable.  For straight up hard-switched
> boost/buck I would agree.  Try implementing something like phase-shift
> modulation to get 'free' ZVS soft-switching (lower EMI and higher
> efficiency) and I will disagree.  The microcontroller horsepower typically
> isn't lacking but the timer/pwm generators they use usually are.  It
> doesn't take much of a change to build a truly universal pwm generator
> timer but we have to implement them in small fpgas.  FWIW, we can payoff a
> $5 fpga in heatsink and power silicon savings.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Nicklas Karlsson <
> nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > since the repo https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga has arrived:
> > >
> > > for those interested in the plumbing of FPGA firmware, please 'watch'
> > this repo - the issue tracker there is relevant
> > >
> > > - Michael
> >
> > FPGA is fun.
> >
> > Although I think the micro controllers today already have suitable
> > peripherals for control of switched power electronics for a lower price.
> >
> >
> > Nicklas Karlsson
> >
> >
> > --
> > Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications
> > Manager
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> > tiers of
> > your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
> > reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
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> >
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Re: [Emc-users] FPGA firmware for SoC's - please watch https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga

2016-04-14 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
That was a few years ago, a few of the new micro controller have suitable 
peripherals for power conversion. I am actually not sure FPGAs have DAC, ADC 
and fast comparators which are part of these suitable peripherals.

In some micro controllers it is not about horse power. Peripherals may handle 
the power conversion with slope generation and micro controller only intervene 
then adjustment are needed like adjusting peak current value. The micro 
controller may are however very useful for example to calculate temperatures or 
implementing a communication protocol, in practice application specific tasks.

The power conversion topologies are still the same.

I have done FPGA and they are very nice to work with then it come to timing of 
IO signals.

Nicklas Karlsson


> Depends on how you define suitable.  For straight up hard-switched
> boost/buck I would agree.  Try implementing something like phase-shift
> modulation to get 'free' ZVS soft-switching (lower EMI and higher
> efficiency) and I will disagree.  The microcontroller horsepower typically
> isn't lacking but the timer/pwm generators they use usually are.  It
> doesn't take much of a change to build a truly universal pwm generator
> timer but we have to implement them in small fpgas.  FWIW, we can payoff a
> $5 fpga in heatsink and power silicon savings.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Nicklas Karlsson <
> nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > since the repo https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga has arrived:
> > >
> > > for those interested in the plumbing of FPGA firmware, please 'watch'
> > this repo - the issue tracker there is relevant
> > >
> > > - Michael
> >
> > FPGA is fun.
> >
> > Although I think the micro controllers today already have suitable
> > peripherals for control of switched power electronics for a lower price.
> >
> >
> > Nicklas Karlsson
> >
> >
> > --
> > Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications
> > Manager
> > Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple
> > tiers of
> > your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
> > reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
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> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] FPGA firmware for SoC's - please watch https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga

2016-04-14 Thread Michael Haberler 
sorry for the noise, hit  too early - wrong list


> Am 14.04.2016 um 21:07 schrieb Michael Haberler :
> 
> since the repo https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga has arrived:
> 
> for those interested in the plumbing of FPGA firmware, please 'watch' this 
> repo - the issue tracker there is relevant
> 
> - Michael
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] FPGA firmware for SoC's - please watch https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga

2016-04-14 Thread Stephen Dubovsky 
Depends on how you define suitable.  For straight up hard-switched
boost/buck I would agree.  Try implementing something like phase-shift
modulation to get 'free' ZVS soft-switching (lower EMI and higher
efficiency) and I will disagree.  The microcontroller horsepower typically
isn't lacking but the timer/pwm generators they use usually are.  It
doesn't take much of a change to build a truly universal pwm generator
timer but we have to implement them in small fpgas.  FWIW, we can payoff a
$5 fpga in heatsink and power silicon savings.

On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Nicklas Karlsson <
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > since the repo https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga has arrived:
> >
> > for those interested in the plumbing of FPGA firmware, please 'watch'
> this repo - the issue tracker there is relevant
> >
> > - Michael
>
> FPGA is fun.
>
> Although I think the micro controllers today already have suitable
> peripherals for control of switched power electronics for a lower price.
>
>
> Nicklas Karlsson
>
>
> --
> Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications
> Manager
> Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple
> tiers of
> your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
> reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] FPGA firmware for SoC's - please watch https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga

2016-04-14 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
> since the repo https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga has arrived:
> 
> for those interested in the plumbing of FPGA firmware, please 'watch' this 
> repo - the issue tracker there is relevant
> 
> - Michael

FPGA is fun.

Although I think the micro controllers today already have suitable peripherals 
for control of switched power electronics for a lower price.


Nicklas Karlsson

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[Emc-users] FPGA firmware for SoC's - please watch https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga

2016-04-14 Thread Michael Haberler 
since the repo https://github.com/machinekit/mksocfpga has arrived:

for those interested in the plumbing of FPGA firmware, please 'watch' this repo 
- the issue tracker there is relevant

- Michael


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Re: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis

2016-04-14 Thread Eric H. Johnson 
Peter,

It is geared down 4:1, so 40 degrees of shaft rotation for 10 degrees on the
axis.

Regards,
Eric


A plot would help, is ths 10 degrees of motor shaft position?



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Re: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis

2016-04-14 Thread Eric H. Johnson 


-Original Message-
From: Peter C. Wallace [mailto:p...@mesanet.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 10:40 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016, Eric H. Johnson wrote:

> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:20:01 -0400
> From: Eric H. Johnson 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'" 
> 
> Subject: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis
> 
> All,
>
>
>
> I am trying to lick a problem with following error on an angular axis 
> (A). I am using a Mesa 7i43 with the 7i33 quad servo interface. If I 
> set the axis max_velocity above about 2 RPS I start getting following 
> errors on G0 moves with any reasonable value for FError (i.e. under 10 
> degrees). The motor should be capable of almost 60 RPS. The encoder is 
> 500 count, 2000 with quadrature, so only a little over 1Khz / 4Khz 
> when I start to see the problem.
>
>
>
> The tuning is firm and giving good positional accuracy, and 
> mechanically there does not appear to be any significant mechanical 
> resistance to overcome. I have played with a number of the axis 
> parameters, but seems to come back to max_velocity, as adjusting 
> acceleration and PID parameters seems to have minimal effect on following
error.
>
>
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eric
>

A plot would help, is ths 10 degrees of motor shaft position?


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis

2016-04-14 Thread Peter C. Wallace 
On Thu, 14 Apr 2016, Eric H. Johnson wrote:

> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:20:01 -0400
> From: Eric H. Johnson 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'" 
> Subject: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis
> 
> All,
>
>
>
> I am trying to lick a problem with following error on an angular axis (A). I
> am using a Mesa 7i43 with the 7i33 quad servo interface. If I set the axis
> max_velocity above about 2 RPS I start getting following errors on G0 moves
> with any reasonable value for FError (i.e. under 10 degrees). The motor
> should be capable of almost 60 RPS. The encoder is 500 count, 2000 with
> quadrature, so only a little over 1Khz / 4Khz when I start to see the
> problem.
>
>
>
> The tuning is firm and giving good positional accuracy, and mechanically
> there does not appear to be any significant mechanical resistance to
> overcome. I have played with a number of the axis parameters, but seems to
> come back to max_velocity, as adjusting acceleration and PID parameters
> seems to have minimal effect on following error.
>
>
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eric
>

A plot would help, is ths 10 degrees of motor shaft position?


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis

2016-04-14 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
D will also help with this. Both FF1 and D together in appropriate amount will 
probably help with this.

> Is the following error proportional to velocity?  FF1 can often help with 
> this, unless it is a torque mode set up, then it becomes a little more 
> complicated.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Eric H. Johnson" 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 9:20:01 AM
> Subject: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis
> 
> All,
> 
>  
> 
> I am trying to lick a problem with following error on an angular axis (A). I
> am using a Mesa 7i43 with the 7i33 quad servo interface. If I set the axis
> max_velocity above about 2 RPS I start getting following errors on G0 moves
> with any reasonable value for FError (i.e. under 10 degrees). The motor
> should be capable of almost 60 RPS. The encoder is 500 count, 2000 with
> quadrature, so only a little over 1Khz / 4Khz when I start to see the
> problem. 
> 
>  
> 
> The tuning is firm and giving good positional accuracy, and mechanically
> there does not appear to be any significant mechanical resistance to
> overcome. I have played with a number of the axis parameters, but seems to
> come back to max_velocity, as adjusting acceleration and PID parameters
> seems to have minimal effect on following error. 
> 
>  
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Eric
> 
>  
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis

2016-04-14 Thread Eric H. Johnson 
Todd,

It is velocity mode. I am running headless so it is a bit of a pain to setup
for running things like halmeter and halscope unless I setup something like
VNC. 

I won't be able to work on it until tomorrow, but will look at this then.

Thanks all,
Eric


Is the following error proportional to velocity?  FF1 can often help with
this, unless it is a torque mode set up, then it becomes a little more
complicated.



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Re: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis

2016-04-14 Thread Todd Zuercher 
Is the following error proportional to velocity?  FF1 can often help with this, 
unless it is a torque mode set up, then it becomes a little more complicated.

- Original Message -
From: "Eric H. Johnson" 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 9:20:01 AM
Subject: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis

All,

 

I am trying to lick a problem with following error on an angular axis (A). I
am using a Mesa 7i43 with the 7i33 quad servo interface. If I set the axis
max_velocity above about 2 RPS I start getting following errors on G0 moves
with any reasonable value for FError (i.e. under 10 degrees). The motor
should be capable of almost 60 RPS. The encoder is 500 count, 2000 with
quadrature, so only a little over 1Khz / 4Khz when I start to see the
problem. 

 

The tuning is firm and giving good positional accuracy, and mechanically
there does not appear to be any significant mechanical resistance to
overcome. I have played with a number of the axis parameters, but seems to
come back to max_velocity, as adjusting acceleration and PID parameters
seems to have minimal effect on following error. 

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks,

Eric

 

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Re: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis

2016-04-14 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
> All,
> 
>  
> 
> I am trying to lick a problem with following error on an angular axis (A). I
> am using a Mesa 7i43 with the 7i33 quad servo interface. If I set the axis
> max_velocity above about 2 RPS I start getting following errors on G0 moves
> with any reasonable value for FError (i.e. under 10 degrees). The motor
> should be capable of almost 60 RPS. The encoder is 500 count, 2000 with
> quadrature, so only a little over 1Khz / 4Khz when I start to see the
> problem. 
> 
>  
> 
> The tuning is firm and giving good positional accuracy, and mechanically
> there does not appear to be any significant mechanical resistance to
> overcome. I have played with a number of the axis parameters, but seems to
> come back to max_velocity, as adjusting acceleration and PID parameters
> seems to have minimal effect on following error. 
> 
>  
> 
> Any ideas?

Yes, integrator will remove following errors over time but then constantly 
moving derivative D is needed. Did you use Linuxcnc builtin tuning? tune mode 
or type I think should be 1 to also enable tuning of feedforward, read manual.

> Thanks,
> 
> Eric


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Following error on angular axis

2016-04-14 Thread andy pugh 
On 14 April 2016 at 14:20, Eric H. Johnson  wrote:

> The motor
> should be capable of almost 60 RPS. The encoder is 500 count, 2000 with
> quadrature, so only a little over 1Khz / 4Khz when I start to see the
> problem.

If you set the f_error to be very large indeed, how fast can the axis
actually rotate? Maybe something in the PID setup (maxerror?) is
artifically limiting the output.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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[Emc-users] Following error on angular axis

2016-04-14 Thread Eric H. Johnson 
All,

 

I am trying to lick a problem with following error on an angular axis (A). I
am using a Mesa 7i43 with the 7i33 quad servo interface. If I set the axis
max_velocity above about 2 RPS I start getting following errors on G0 moves
with any reasonable value for FError (i.e. under 10 degrees). The motor
should be capable of almost 60 RPS. The encoder is 500 count, 2000 with
quadrature, so only a little over 1Khz / 4Khz when I start to see the
problem. 

 

The tuning is firm and giving good positional accuracy, and mechanically
there does not appear to be any significant mechanical resistance to
overcome. I have played with a number of the axis parameters, but seems to
come back to max_velocity, as adjusting acceleration and PID parameters
seems to have minimal effect on following error. 

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks,

Eric

 

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Re: [Emc-users] Arrival time Moving average (time, period)

2016-04-14 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
I got it and it is indeed very simple. Subtract a receival time "n" steps back 
in time from "last" receival time, divide and accumulate this time:
  dt = (tArrival(-1) - tArrival(-n))/n;
  tEstimated = tEstimated + dt;

Jitter on a singel arrival time will be divided by "n" and "tEstimated" will 
slowly adapt to clock drift. I think this algorithm will work great but any 
comments are welcome.

Regards Nicklas Karlsson


On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:17:20 -0500
Jack Coats  wrote:

> My knee-jerk algorithm would say subtract one average from the total of all
> averages, add in the new period, and divide by the number in the average.
> If programming in assembler I would go with 128 rather than 100 steps to
> keep the division easy (rotate a copy of the accumulator right 7 bits).
> Divide can be costly if done in hardware.
> 
> The 'right way' is probably to keep a list and re-add them each time just
> having a FIFO queue for the individual timings. ... Also speed things up
> keep the 'total' in an accumulator, and process using the 'knee-jerk'
> method, but subtracting the entry about to rotate out of the queue before
> adding the new one.  You still have the divide of the accumulation to do.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 7:05 AM, Nicklas Karlsson <
> nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I have made some work on a micro controller based stepper generator and
> > steps are now generated.
> >
> > To keep stepper generator in sync with linuxcnc there is a need to
> > calculate average phase and period of the message arrival times. I expect
> > the same algorithm is rather useful to have then working with linuxcnc for
> > other purposes and I will send the source code once implemented if somebody
> > else is interested in it.
> >
> > Is is rather straightforward to calculate from for example the last 100
> > arrival times but a moving average algorithm would be preferred to reduce
> > CPU load. Do anybody have any ideas?
> >
> >
> > Regards Nicklas Karlsson
> >
> >
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> 
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> 
> The Four Boxes of Liberty - "There are four boxes to be used in the defense
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