Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[andy pugh]

On 31 December 2016 at 03:07, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> But did they fix the problem?  It seems to me that tracking the helium
> level in the system ought to be something a 6th grader watching
> mechanical gauges could do.

Superfluid cryogenic helium might be rather a tricky thing to measure
the level of.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 31 December 2016 05:34:53 andy pugh wrote:

> On 31 December 2016 at 03:07, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > But did they fix the problem?  It seems to me that tracking the
> > helium level in the system ought to be something a 6th grader
> > watching mechanical gauges could do.
>
> Superfluid cryogenic helium might be rather a tricky thing to measure
> the level of.

I can't argue that point Andy, my own cold knowledge quits with LN2. And 
thats not cold enough by quite a ways to be applied to helium so cold 
its a liquid at ambient pressures. The colder you get it, the stranger 
it becomes.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Jon Elson]

On 12/31/2016 04:34 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 31 December 2016 at 03:07, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> But did they fix the problem?  It seems to me that tracking the helium
>> level in the system ought to be something a 6th grader watching
>> mechanical gauges could do.
> Superfluid cryogenic helium might be rather a tricky thing to measure
> the level of.
>
Well, there are ways, usually using self-heating thermistors.

But, the problem was they sprung a leak in a gaseous helium 
line, and lost thousands of cubic feet of helium, and 
nothing sounded the alarm until some other system noticed a 
shortage.

I'm sure there were monitoring systems for this, but for 
some reason, they didn't work.  Could have been so stupid as 
the system had the wrong pager number for the guy on call.  
I just don't know how it happened, and it is ALL 
scuttlebutt, as they are too embarrassed to write a paper on it.

Jon

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[Emc-users] question on emi filters

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

While I like the SPI interface as its faster that even a parport, I am 
finding it quite susceptible to mistakes cause by emi from a switching 
psu's typical of stepper motor psu's. These things it seems can radiate 
back out the line input connections, while switching at 17 kilohertz, is 
making the whole system bounce around with high frequency switching 
noises of 5 or more volts with rise times in the sub 5ns range, 2 feet 
of ground braid away from the common bolt, totally tearing up the data 
integrity of the spi bus.

With the z motor psu unplugged, the system runs fine although the noise 
from the 5 v 4a computer and interface supply is still in the 1.5 volt 
range, measured from the common ground bolt to a grounded pin on the 
7i90's center i/o connector. A filter of sorts, with too long (about a 
foot) interconnection leads from that 5v supply to the filter reduces 
that noise to about 400 millivolts, so its definitely helpfull. So I 
have bought 2 of corcoms 20 amp rated brick wall's, should be here the 
end of next week. $24/copy.

So my question is: 

If I mount one adjacent to the psu's for the motors, and feed both psu's 
from that filter with lead wires in the 2 or 3 inch range, is this going 
to cause the crap from one supply to be rejected into the other supply, 
possibly damaging it?

Both supplies carry universal, up to 250 volt input ratings. In fact I'd 
feed them 254 from the wall plug, except the inputs are labeled L & N, 
not L & L. Being a std residential hookup here, my 254 is centertapped, 
balanced to ground. 127 vac to dirt ground from either leg.

The 2nd, I will strip room for it on the inside of the lid, so that the 
little supply also has very short leads to the filter.

I quit adding a third one for the 2nd supply because I an running out of 
mounting space for it in this box. So I almost have to make one filter 
do for both supplies.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Noise problem found, but not fixed.

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 31 December 2016 11:12:33 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/31/2016 04:34 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 31 December 2016 at 03:07, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> >> But did they fix the problem?  It seems to me that tracking the
> >> helium level in the system ought to be something a 6th grader
> >> watching mechanical gauges could do.
> >
> > Superfluid cryogenic helium might be rather a tricky thing to
> > measure the level of.
>
> Well, there are ways, usually using self-heating thermistors.
>
> But, the problem was they sprung a leak in a gaseous helium
> line, and lost thousands of cubic feet of helium, and
> nothing sounded the alarm until some other system noticed a
> shortage.
>
> I'm sure there were monitoring systems for this, but for
> some reason, they didn't work.  Could have been so stupid as
> the system had the wrong pager number for the guy on call.
> I just don't know how it happened, and it is ALL
> scuttlebutt, as they are too embarrassed to write a paper on it.
>
> Jon
>
You have to grin and chuckle at that bit of CTA at its finest, its just 
our tax dollars after all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] question on emi filters

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 12/31/2016 05:54 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> While I like the SPI interface as its faster that even a parport, I am 
> finding it quite susceptible to mistakes cause by emi from a switching 
> psu's typical of stepper motor psu's. These things it seems can radiate 
> back out the line input connections, while switching at 17 kilohertz, is 
> making the whole system bounce around with high frequency switching 
> noises of 5 or more volts with rise times in the sub 5ns range, 2 feet 
> of ground braid away from the common bolt, totally tearing up the data 
> integrity of the spi bus.

The real question is whether you are seeing common-mode noise (EMI
induced junk on all signal and ground lines) or you have a (DC+AC)
current-carrying GND vs GND reference in a combined setup (inducing a loop).

The common-mode noise is well dampended using good cable design with
proper layout and using filters plus ferrite beads at the right places.

However, if the reference ground is not equal at both ends of the signal
line, then you are in trouble. This is why you would use a balanced line
(differential), which is not absolutely referenced to ground, but
switches on the differential (and you can clamp the lines).

You will need to measure which effects are causing trouble to choose the
best way to solve it.

BTW, the common bolt should not carry current. That would make EMI
radiation just too bad.

-- 
Greetings Bertho

(disclaimers are disclaimed)

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Re: [Emc-users] question on emi filters

[Chris Albertson]

Gene,

I think you know all this but I wonder if you implemented it.

I wonder if the issue is not with grounding.   If a signal moves
relative to ground maybe it is the ground that moves?   The only way
to avoid a moving ground is tomato absolutely certain that it is
impossible for current to flow through a ground line.  The ground
moves because volts is current times reactance (Ohms law) Yes
"reactance" not resistance because we are dealing with AC.

Every positive power supply line needs a dedicated return line and
keep them inside the same cable assembly or even twisted.   The fields
cancel that way,  no common ground return paths

The only way I know to prove there is not current in a ground line is
to remember Kirkoff:  Current flows in a loop.  Make the ground such
that there are no loops.   This is VERY hard to do an requires things
like lifting the connect to a shielded cable on one end and

I think the most serious problems are common ground current returns

My experience with this is mostly with professional level audio where
we try and keep noise at the -100 dB level.  It can be done even with
switching mode power supplies
Noise can also readout but never through a grounded metal box

A good thing to invest in is a lab grade bend power supply.  Even the
cheap $100 units are decent.  When you are building your prototype
systems use that known-good power supply.  I think you said you were
using a re-cycled computer power supply.  These are the worst things
on Earth.I use one to power my Lithium battery charger

If the grounding is done well and you've fixed radiated EMI by maybe
using all balanced power cables and metal boxes then LC filters really
work as designed.  A large iron core choke will seriously attenuate
noise


All that said, most of my motion control work is robots and I use
battery power.  The battery powers a set of switching mode DC/DC
converters and these power the electonics these switch at the MHz
level and are easy to filter  the other trick is not using one central
power supply but placing smaller DC/DC units near their loads

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> Greetings all;
>
> While I like the SPI interface as its faster that even a parport, I am
> finding it quite susceptible to mistakes cause by emi from a switching
> psu's typical of stepper motor psu's. These things it seems can radiate
> back out the line input connections, while switching at 17 kilohertz, is
> making the whole system bounce around with high frequency switching
> noises of 5 or more volts with rise times in the sub 5ns range, 2 feet
> of ground braid away from the common bolt, totally tearing up the data
> integrity of the spi bus.
>
> With the z motor psu unplugged, the system runs fine although the noise
> from the 5 v 4a computer and interface supply is still in the 1.5 volt
> range, measured from the common ground bolt to a grounded pin on the
> 7i90's center i/o connector. A filter of sorts, with too long (about a
> foot) interconnection leads from that 5v supply to the filter reduces
> that noise to about 400 millivolts, so its definitely helpfull. So I
> have bought 2 of corcoms 20 amp rated brick wall's, should be here the
> end of next week. $24/copy.
>
> So my question is:
>
> If I mount one adjacent to the psu's for the motors, and feed both psu's
> from that filter with lead wires in the 2 or 3 inch range, is this going
> to cause the crap from one supply to be rejected into the other supply,
> possibly damaging it?
>
> Both supplies carry universal, up to 250 volt input ratings. In fact I'd
> feed them 254 from the wall plug, except the inputs are labeled L & N,
> not L & L. Being a std residential hookup here, my 254 is centertapped,
> balanced to ground. 127 vac to dirt ground from either leg.
>
> The 2nd, I will strip room for it on the inside of the lid, so that the
> little supply also has very short leads to the filter.
>
> I quit adding a third one for the 2nd supply because I an running out of
> mounting space for it in this box. So I almost have to make one filter
> do for both supplies.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] question on emi filters

[Marcus Bowman]

On 31 Dec 2016, at 18:50, Chris Albertson wrote:

> Gene,
> 
> I think you know all this but I wonder if you implemented it.
> 
> I wonder if the issue is not with grounding.   If a signal moves
> relative to ground maybe it is the ground that moves?   The only way
> to avoid a moving ground is tomato absolutely certain that it is
> impossible for current to flow through a ground line.  The ground
> moves because volts is current times reactance (Ohms law) Yes
> "reactance" not resistance because we are dealing with AC.
> 
> Every positive power supply line needs a dedicated return line and
> keep them inside the same cable assembly or even twisted.   The fields
> cancel that way,  no common ground return paths
> 
> The only way I know to prove there is not current in a ground line is
> to remember Kirkoff:  Current flows in a loop.  Make the ground such
> that there are no loops.   This is VERY hard to do an requires things
> like lifting the connect to a shielded cable on one end and
> 
> I think the most serious problems are common ground current returns
> 
> My experience with this is mostly with professional level audio where
> we try and keep noise at the -100 dB level.  It can be done even with
> switching mode power supplies
> Noise can also readout but never through a grounded metal box
> 
> A good thing to invest in is a lab grade bend power supply.  Even the
> cheap $100 units are decent.  When you are building your prototype
> systems use that known-good power supply.  I think you said you were
> using a re-cycled computer power supply.  These are the worst things
> on Earth.

Absolutely agree with that. Most cheap ones do not have any decent filtering. 
Try using a linear PSU. Much more expensive, but much less trouble. Mine is 
built from a couple of large toroidal transformers. No troublesome emissions. 
The only spurious emissions are the noise for one of the four fans, which 
sounds as though it has run a bearing again.
Have you checked your computer for emissions? I have one computer here which 
sends out copious amounts of broadband noise (from the PSU). The PSU came as 
part of a deal with a new rack mount case. I thought it was a nice bonus at the 
time...

Marcus
 
>I use one to power my Lithium battery charger
> 
> If the grounding is done well and you've fixed radiated EMI by maybe
> using all balanced power cables and metal boxes then LC filters really
> work as designed.  A large iron core choke will seriously attenuate
> noise
> 
> 
> All that said, most of my motion control work is robots and I use
> battery power.  The battery powers a set of switching mode DC/DC
> converters and these power the electonics these switch at the MHz
> level and are easy to filter  the other trick is not using one central
> power supply but placing smaller DC/DC units near their loads
> 
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> Greetings all;
>> 
>> While I like the SPI interface as its faster that even a parport, I am
>> finding it quite susceptible to mistakes cause by emi from a switching
>> psu's typical of stepper motor psu's. These things it seems can radiate
>> back out the line input connections, while switching at 17 kilohertz, is
>> making the whole system bounce around with high frequency switching
>> noises of 5 or more volts with rise times in the sub 5ns range, 2 feet
>> of ground braid away from the common bolt, totally tearing up the data
>> integrity of the spi bus.
>> 
>> With the z motor psu unplugged, the system runs fine although the noise
>> from the 5 v 4a computer and interface supply is still in the 1.5 volt
>> range, measured from the common ground bolt to a grounded pin on the
>> 7i90's center i/o connector. A filter of sorts, with too long (about a
>> foot) interconnection leads from that 5v supply to the filter reduces
>> that noise to about 400 millivolts, so its definitely helpfull. So I
>> have bought 2 of corcoms 20 amp rated brick wall's, should be here the
>> end of next week. $24/copy.
>> 
>> So my question is:
>> 
>> If I mount one adjacent to the psu's for the motors, and feed both psu's
>> from that filter with lead wires in the 2 or 3 inch range, is this going
>> to cause the crap from one supply to be rejected into the other supply,
>> possibly damaging it?
>> 
>> Both supplies carry universal, up to 250 volt input ratings. In fact I'd
>> feed them 254 from the wall plug, except the inputs are labeled L & N,
>> not L & L. Being a std residential hookup here, my 254 is centertapped,
>> balanced to ground. 127 vac to dirt ground from either leg.
>> 
>> The 2nd, I will strip room for it on the inside of the lid, so that the
>> little supply also has very short leads to the filter.
>> 
>> I quit adding a third one for the 2nd supply because I an running out of
>> mounting space for it in this box. So I almost have to make one filter
>> do for both supplies.
>> 
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defens

Re: [Emc-users] question on emi filters

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 31 December 2016 12:16:50 Bertho Stultiens wrote:

> On 12/31/2016 05:54 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > While I like the SPI interface as its faster that even a parport, I
> > am finding it quite susceptible to mistakes cause by emi from a
> > switching psu's typical of stepper motor psu's. These things it
> > seems can radiate back out the line input connections, while
> > switching at 17 kilohertz, is making the whole system bounce around
> > with high frequency switching noises of 5 or more volts with rise
> > times in the sub 5ns range, 2 feet of ground braid away from the
> > common bolt, totally tearing up the data integrity of the spi bus.
>
> The real question is whether you are seeing common-mode noise (EMI
> induced junk on all signal and ground lines) or you have a (DC+AC)
> current-carrying GND vs GND reference in a combined setup (inducing a
> loop).
>
> The common-mode noise is well dampended using good cable design with
> proper layout and using filters plus ferrite beads at the right
> places.
>
> However, if the reference ground is not equal at both ends of the
> signal line, then you are in trouble. This is why you would use a
> balanced line (differential), which is not absolutely referenced to
> ground, but switches on the differential (and you can clamp the
> lines).
>
Do you know of a 4 wire to 8 wire and back interface that can function at 
32 megabaud and doesn't cost 5 grand+?  Neither do I. :)  Laser diodes 
and detectors that could handle 2x the video speed needed to hit an HDTV 
transmitter would be required, times 4 to do it optically.

There are capacitatively coupled chips I have seen the announcements for, 
intended to steal some of the jobs the MOC chips are doing, but no clue 
as to their useable bandwidth. I'll see what google says.

A  paper by Silabs 

 says the are using a nominally 10 megahertz carrier in a cmos circuit, 
about 30x too slow for this. 

Searching further, TI has a family of them, 3 channels one way, 1 the 
other, would only need one, at 3.49 in 1k lots, claims 100 megahertz 
bandwidth. I'll see how much power it needs, and what the small qty 
price might be. Not available, so I've ordered samples of 2 variations, 
one of which is inverting but I don't see which is which. Its an SOIC 
package, dunno if I could hack a pcb for that.

Perhaps this might be the better method?

Jeff Epler, can you chime in here with your 2 cents?


> You will need to measure which effects are causing trouble to choose
> the best way to solve it.
>
> BTW, the common bolt should not carry current. That would make EMI
> radiation just too bad.

That common bolt is connected only to the house static ground, I have 
been careful not to mix-n-match as I spent 18 years at the tv station 
fighting with that because the now deceased jerk that wired the place 
originally had them cross connected at a few places. I would have had to 
shut it down for a couple days and change $2000 worth of boxes in the 
entrance lashup to fix it.  Verified isolated again just yesterday.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] question on emi filters

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 31 December 2016 13:50:38 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Gene,
>
> I think you know all this but I wonder if you implemented it.
>
> I wonder if the issue is not with grounding.   If a signal moves
> relative to ground maybe it is the ground that moves?   The only way
> to avoid a moving ground is tomato absolutely certain that it is
> impossible for current to flow through a ground line.  The ground
> moves because volts is current times reactance (Ohms law) Yes
> "reactance" not resistance because we are dealing with AC.
>
> Every positive power supply line needs a dedicated return line and
> keep them inside the same cable assembly or even twisted.   The fields
> cancel that way,  no common ground return paths
>
> The only way I know to prove there is not current in a ground line is
> to remember Kirkoff:  Current flows in a loop.  Make the ground such
> that there are no loops.   This is VERY hard to do an requires things
> like lifting the connect to a shielded cable on one end and
>
> I think the most serious problems are common ground current returns
>
> My experience with this is mostly with professional level audio where
> we try and keep noise at the -100 dB level.  It can be done even with
> switching mode power supplies
> Noise can also readout but never through a grounded metal box
>
> A good thing to invest in is a lab grade bend power supply.  Even the
> cheap $100 units are decent.  When you are building your prototype
> systems use that known-good power supply.  I think you said you were
> using a re-cycled computer power supply.

Heavens no Chris, what I said was that I had cut the entrance filters out 
of a couple of them, one was on a separate PCB, but the other I had to 
drive the mill around the corners to cut it out of the main PCB.

But see my post of a few minutes ago, this could be the ultimate solution 
since its the SPI bus that is being mucked with.

> These are the worst things 
> on Earth.I use one to power my Lithium battery charger
>
> If the grounding is done well and you've fixed radiated EMI by maybe
> using all balanced power cables and metal boxes then LC filters really
> work as designed.  A large iron core choke will seriously attenuate
> noise
>
>
> All that said, most of my motion control work is robots and I use
> battery power.  The battery powers a set of switching mode DC/DC
> converters and these power the electonics these switch at the MHz
> level and are easy to filter  the other trick is not using one central
> power supply but placing smaller DC/DC units near their loads
>
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > While I like the SPI interface as its faster that even a parport, I
> > am finding it quite susceptible to mistakes cause by emi from a
> > switching psu's typical of stepper motor psu's. These things it
> > seems can radiate back out the line input connections, while
> > switching at 17 kilohertz, is making the whole system bounce around
> > with high frequency switching noises of 5 or more volts with rise
> > times in the sub 5ns range, 2 feet of ground braid away from the
> > common bolt, totally tearing up the data integrity of the spi bus.
> >
> > With the z motor psu unplugged, the system runs fine although the
> > noise from the 5 v 4a computer and interface supply is still in the
> > 1.5 volt range, measured from the common ground bolt to a grounded
> > pin on the 7i90's center i/o connector. A filter of sorts, with too
> > long (about a foot) interconnection leads from that 5v supply to the
> > filter reduces that noise to about 400 millivolts, so its definitely
> > helpfull. So I have bought 2 of corcoms 20 amp rated brick wall's,
> > should be here the end of next week. $24/copy.
> >
> > So my question is:
> >
> > If I mount one adjacent to the psu's for the motors, and feed both
> > psu's from that filter with lead wires in the 2 or 3 inch range, is
> > this going to cause the crap from one supply to be rejected into the
> > other supply, possibly damaging it?
> >
> > Both supplies carry universal, up to 250 volt input ratings. In fact
> > I'd feed them 254 from the wall plug, except the inputs are labeled
> > L & N, not L & L. Being a std residential hookup here, my 254 is
> > centertapped, balanced to ground. 127 vac to dirt ground from either
> > leg.
> >
> > The 2nd, I will strip room for it on the inside of the lid, so that
> > the little supply also has very short leads to the filter.
> >
> > I quit adding a third one for the 2nd supply because I an running
> > out of mounting space for it in this box. So I almost have to make
> > one filter do for both supplies.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> > 

[Emc-users] Linuxcnc Computer recommendation.

[Matthew Hubbard]

Hi guys, I recently built a linuxcnc servo controlled machine using a 6I25-7I77 
combo. Now that everything is working, Our computer is on the fritz. Can anyone 
recommend a new known low latency computer?Thanks
Matt
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[Emc-users] Happy New Year everybody!

[Gene Heskett]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Happy New Year everybody!

[Neil]

And you too!

Cheers,
-Neil.




On 1/1/2017 12:01 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] Happy New Year everybody!

[Linden]

Yes happy new year and thank you all for sharing such a wide verioty of wisdom 
on this list over the last year

On December 31, 2016 9:01:13 PM PST, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>Cheers, Gene Heskett
>-- 
>"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>Genes Web page 
>
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>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most 
>engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] Happy New Year everybody!

[tom-emc]

Happy 12,017!!
-Tom
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a24195/case-for-a-new-calendar-12017/

> On Jan 1, 2017, at 12:01 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most 
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


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