Re: [Emc-users] Success story and a question

[jeremy youngs]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 12:59 PM Todd Zuercher  wrote:

> If the behavior is anything like the Z inhibit button on all the Fanuc
> machines I've worked with it is a horribly dangerous device.  On the Fanuc
> machines (modern newer ones with absolute encoders included) it is the
> equivalent of disconnecting the outputs of the stepgen and nothing else.
> When the button is released if the commanded Z position isn't the same as
> when it was pressed, the Z absolute position is shifted by the difference
> and can't be corrected without cycling the control power (rehoming doesn't
> even fix it).  And since most of our Fanuc machines use tool change
> routines that include Z axis moves, tool changes can't be done with the Z
> inhibit active, pretty much making it completely useless.
>
> Mazaks have similar behavior when feed held and shifted in handle. When
> placed back in auto move it will start from where it last was in auto mode
> and not reference the handle move off , this was the source of my biggest
> screw up ever , I ran a criterion millionths boring head straight into a
> renishaw toolsetter , killing both of them with 1200 ipm rapid.
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Re: [Emc-users] Success story and a question

[Todd Zuercher]

If the behavior is anything like the Z inhibit button on all the Fanuc machines 
I've worked with it is a horribly dangerous device.  On the Fanuc machines 
(modern newer ones with absolute encoders included) it is the equivalent of 
disconnecting the outputs of the stepgen and nothing else.  When the button is 
released if the commanded Z position isn't the same as when it was pressed, the 
Z absolute position is shifted by the difference and can't be corrected without 
cycling the control power (rehoming doesn't even fix it).  And since most of 
our Fanuc machines use tool change routines that include Z axis moves, tool 
changes can't be done with the Z inhibit active, pretty much making it 
completely useless.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Brent Loschen  
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:11 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Success story and a question



Thanks for those pin names Andy, and great point about a premature toggle of 
the "No Z" button.  I'm not sure what the original BP did if you attempted to 
disable the No Z  button while a program was running. Given the safety features 
of that old BP control, I tend to think that the button was probably 
disabled/ignored during program execution, but I never tested it.   Whenever I 
used the "No Z" feature, I ran as much of the program as I needed for my XY 
sanity check, then stopped the program and turned off No Z before rerunning the 
program with Z motion.

In order to get that behavior in LCNC, I would need a signal that indicates 
whether or not a program is running.    I did a few searches and it looks like 
halui.program.is-running AND'd with halui.mode.is-auto is potentially one 
solution (IOW, a program is running, and it's not an MDI or MPG command).  
Sound right?  Is there a better way?

Now I'm off to learn a little about AXIS and how to add a button!

Thanks,
Brent

On 8/8/2018 3:18 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 8 August 2018 at 03:17, Brent Loschen  wrote:
>
>> And now for my question.  The old Bridgeport had a button on the 
>> front panel titled "No Z" that turned off all z motion and let me 
>> "air mill" a part as a sanity check of my X & Y boundaries/fixtures.  
>> I can't find the equivalent functionality in LCNC and was wondering 
>> if anyone here has done this, or knows the best way to implement it.
> I suspect this would start off looking easy and turn out to be 
> surprisingly difficult.
>
> Turning off the Z is pretty easy, you would disable the Z stepgen and 
> (at the same time) connect  joint.2.motor-pos-fb to 
> joint,2,motor-pos-cmd rather than to hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.2.position-fb.
>
> Now the machine thinks that Z is moving, so it is happy, and the 
> stepgen is disabled, so no steps are sent. That just needs a mux2 
> component in the HAL.
>
> But what happens when you release the button? Suddenly the machine 
> will realise that the Z axis is not where you told it it was, and you 
> will get an immediate following error. Also, the Z will attempt to 
> move to the "real" position at a speed only limited by the stepgen 
> accel and velocity limits.
>
> So you probably need some Hal-trickery to gently move the Z back in to 
> commanded position, while at the same time lying about the position to 
> prevent following error being triggered.
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Success story and a question

[Jon Elson]

On 08/07/2018 09:17 PM, Brent Loschen wrote:




And now for my question.  The old Bridgeport had a button 
on the front panel titled "No Z" that turned off all z 
motion and let me "air mill" a part as a sanity check of 
my X & Y boundaries/fixtures.  I can't find the equivalent 
functionality in LCNC and was wondering if anyone here has 
done this, or knows the best way to implement it.  (the 
LCNC display certainly shows the part and the toolpath, 
but for me, it's so much better to see the part actually 
move under a motionless cutter)  Ideally, I would like to 
have a button in AXIS that performs that task much as it 
did on the original Bridgeport control.


The easiest cheat for this is to just set the Z zero well 
above the part, and maybe pull the circuit breaker for the 
VFD.  Then, you can run the program, and the empty spindle 
(or tool) will coast clear of the part, vise, etc.


When I was first setting up my CNC machine, I made a 
spring-loaded ballpoint pen holder that fit in a 1/2" 
collet.  Assuming no big Z moves, you could tape paper to a 
sheet of material in the vise and draw the toolpath.  This 
was very instructive when first figuring out how to do 
cutter radius offsets and things like that.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Success story and a question

[Brent Loschen]

Thanks for those pin names Andy, and great point about a premature 
toggle of the "No Z" button.  I'm not sure what the original BP did if 
you attempted to disable the No Z  button while a program was running.  
Given the safety features of that old BP control, I tend to think that 
the button was probably disabled/ignored during program execution, but I 
never tested it.   Whenever I used the "No Z" feature, I ran as much of 
the program as I needed for my XY sanity check, then stopped the program 
and turned off No Z before rerunning the program with Z motion.


In order to get that behavior in LCNC, I would need a signal that 
indicates whether or not a program is running.    I did a few searches 
and it looks like halui.program.is-running AND'd with halui.mode.is-auto 
is potentially one solution (IOW, a program is running, and it's not an 
MDI or MPG command).  Sound right?  Is there a better way?


Now I'm off to learn a little about AXIS and how to add a button!

Thanks,
Brent

On 8/8/2018 3:18 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On 8 August 2018 at 03:17, Brent Loschen  wrote:


And now for my question.  The old Bridgeport had a button on the front panel
titled "No Z" that turned off all z motion and let me "air mill" a part as a
sanity check of my X & Y boundaries/fixtures.  I can't find the equivalent
functionality in LCNC and was wondering if anyone here has done this, or
knows the best way to implement it.

I suspect this would start off looking easy and turn out to be
surprisingly difficult.

Turning off the Z is pretty easy, you would disable the Z stepgen and
(at the same time) connect  joint.2.motor-pos-fb to
joint,2,motor-pos-cmd rather than to hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.2.position-fb.

Now the machine thinks that Z is moving, so it is happy, and the
stepgen is disabled, so no steps are sent. That just needs a mux2
component in the HAL.

But what happens when you release the button? Suddenly the machine
will realise that the Z axis is not where you told it it was, and you
will get an immediate following error. Also, the Z will attempt to
move to the "real" position at a speed only limited by the stepgen
accel and velocity limits.

So you probably need some Hal-trickery to gently move the Z back in to
commanded position, while at the same time lying about the position to
prevent following error being triggered.




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Re: [Emc-users] Punch down

[jeremy youngs]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018, 11:54 PM Ralph Stirling 
wrote:

> #24 stranded won't be reliable with those red connectors.  They are made
> for #22 stranded wire.  You need the white 640441 connectors for #24.
>

Thank you, yep that's my observation, unreliable.

>
>
> https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/TE+Connectivity+AMP+Connectors/3-640441-4/A30980-ND/698223
>
> Here is the simple tool.  You might find it on ebay too.
>
> Thank you
>
> https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/TE+Connectivity+AMP+Connectors/59803-1/A9982-ND/132430
>
> -- Ralph
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Scroll jaw G code?

[grumpy]

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:624625

Quoting Chris Albertson :


Sorry I thought he was making the scroll.   Actually I thought the project
was to make an entire chuck.
Not reading closely enough I guess.

Tes 100%, if you can do the axis reversal in air, that is the place.  Good
Idea.


No, not at all.  Once the tool is out of the materiel, you can lift to

clear and step directly to the other side of the jaw, drop back to
depth, offset the cut half the pitch, and repeat the exact same code in
the relative mode to make the next groove inward or outward of the one
you just cut.

> I think the best way might be to use four axis and put the material in
> a rotary table and make the lath chuck on what is in effect a lathe.
> You can make a perfectly round check that way with not axises
> reversals.

If your rotary can be sped up while carving the air between the jaws,
enough to regain the exec time speed, mine cannot. About 2 revs/minute
is all I can trust it to do.

> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 1:27 PM Gene Heskett 
wrote:
> > On Tuesday 07 August 2018 13:41:18 Chris Albertson wrote:
> > > Yes, that is the method I would use:  Create the full scroll then
> > > use that as a "tool" to
> > > remove material from a black jaw model.  You could never get it to
> > > match up otherwise.
> > > Just last night I needed to make a lid for a box and wanted an
> > > interlocking goose.  So
> > > I make the lid about 10 mm to tall and use the box to cut off the
> > > excess.
> > >
> > > But there is one problem with the technique, especially when
> > > making metal parts, you need
> > > some clearance.  This is why there is an "offset" tool to reduce
> > > the size of the part by a few
> > > 0.01 mm or whatever you need.
> >
> > This brings up an argument against doing it aligned with an axis but
> > s/b aligned at 45 degrees so there is never an axis direction
> > reversal while the tool is within the material. Its been my
> > experience, with the quality of machine and ball screws I can
> > afford, that one can never get a completely invisible axis reversal
> > although I do have bearings seated in such carvings, carved on a
> > micro-mill after very carefully setting the XY axis's backlash.
> > Sure, lay it out and generate the code aligned with an axis just
> > because its easier that way, but mount the jaw holding vise at
> > nominally 45 degrees, measure its angle with a touch probe and sci
> > calculator, and rotate the co-ord map to match. That will move any
> > direction reversals to outside of the workpiece. Voila! Perfect
> > curves w/o any backlash artifacts.
> >
> > > But is you mill good enough to cut a spiral?   Getting the g-code
> > > is the easy part.
> > >
> > > > If you draw the spiral in cad, then choose a section of maximum
> > > > radius, and minimum radius that a jaw 'tooth' will traverse.
> > > >
> > > > Now superimpose those two profiles and lop off any excess,
> > > > keeping only the intersecting area.
> > > > Repeat for all jaw 'teeth'
> > > > Then hand code the segments..
> >
> > --
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > 
> >-- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
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--
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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ht

Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc run problems

[Mark]

On 08/07/2018 08:22 PM, jrmitchellj wrote:

Joint 2 error on a 2 axis machine, hmm.
Would it only have joint 0 & 1?
Is it possible you opened a 3 axis config?

J. Ray Mitchell Jr.

“No thief, however skillful, can rob one of knowledge, and that is why
knowledge is the best and safest treasure to acquire.”

-L. Frank Baum


May have been a brain fart typo on my part, I'll check that again this 
afternoon when I get a chance to work on it.


Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc run problems

[Mark]

On 08/07/2018 07:34 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote:



The following error really suggests a thread /configuration issue 
(latency gone bad, missing thread etc etc) Almost nothing interface 
hardware wise should be able to cause a following error.


I would try out stepconfs test proceedure to verify that the external 
hardware/parallel ports are OK and also re-run the latency-test


Thanks Peter, I'll give that a shot this afternoon too.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc run problems

[Mark]

On 08/08/2018 03:01 AM, Marcus Bowman wrote:

The joint 2 following error is likely stopping it before it can move

the on-screen DRO more than 2 or 3 counts if that far.

Two thoughts:
First: I had a joint following error which occurred because the machine was 
trying to exceed acceleration limits for the axis. Those limits were set in the 
ini file, so I edited that and eliminated the problem. But I can't see how that 
would happen if you have not recently altered the ini file.
Second thought is:
Can you disable the automatic axis zeroing cycle, and just use manual home 
setting, and see what happens? That way, the machine should not even attempt to 
move any axis until you home them all manually, by clicking on the Home button, 
and not actually moving the axis.
Then you can jog each axis individually. You can also move each individually at 
various speeds for various distances and see what happens.

Marcus


Marcus,

Correct, nothing has changed on the machine for a few weeks now.  I 
leave the main computer running 24/7 and just fire up LinuxCNC when I 
need it.  No changes to the ini or hal files in recent memory.


I can try that, though it doesn't get past the first homing cycle, which 
is on the Z axis.  There's no movement at all on the machine. Just the 
increase in the velocity on the display with no change on the Z axis on 
the machine or on the Axis display.


Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc run problems

[Mark]

On 08/07/2018 08:29 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Compaq desktop computer. Two PCI parallel port cards. Heavy duty
parallel cables I bought years ago. You'd have to hit 'em with a .50
BMG to do any damage to them. Both cables ohm'd out good. Both cards
are well seated in their respective PCI slots.

It takes a couple of seconds for the velocity to ramp up on the
display before the joint 2 error pops up. No change during that time
in the Z axis position on the display.

Mark

Thats weirdsville Mark. Have you attempted to move the machines other
axis's? Since z on a mill is commonly homed first to get it up the post
and out of the way, maybe the x and y can still be moved from the
keyboard? On a lathe, x is first to home just to get it backed out and
out of the way, or at least thats how I have mine sequenced.

Time to get out the scope from the sounds of this.  Does the breakout
board have tally led's on its outputs?  They might be helpfull. If the
bob doesn't, scope time.


Definitely weird.  I didn't think to see if the machine will jog either 
via the keyboard or MPEG.  I'll test that this afternoon when I get back 
home from a little job I have to do this morning.


Breakout board has one light, a red one and it's lit bright as it always 
is.  It's a C10 board from Arturo at CNC4PC.  At this point I don't 
think it's hardware, but I'll check just in case.


Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Success story and a question

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 08 August 2018 03:12:51 Marcus Bowman wrote:

> So now, instead of learning a little, you have learned a LOT.
> Congratulations. Make a nice badge with lots of engraved detail, and
> wear it proudly. I can't answer your AXIS button question, although I
> imagine it is not a difficult thing to do. I've never done it, because
> I have a hardware switch for each axis built into my homemade control
> box that holds all the step generating hardware (Geckos), PSU etc.
> Switches just interrupt the pulse train. On the other hand, I have 
> never once used those switches. It is much better to just set the Z0
> point way above the Z surface, and air cut, That way, you see the Z
> axis movement as well, and that can sometimes show you where that
> might need attention. But you can do it without danger to the cutter.
>
> Marcus

I just do a touch off up in the air for my test runs. Or if I've put in 
code to probe for z, I'll just touch the sense wire to the tool while 
its still descending, giving a false z up in the air. Once I've seen 
that the fixtures are cleared, just hit r again and let it do its job.
>
> On 8 Aug 2018, at 03:17, Brent Loschen wrote:
> > I've been following this list for a couple of years, hoping that
> > perhaps through osmosis, I would learn enough about Linuxcnc to
> > convert my old Bridgeport R2E4 to a modern control.  The first step
> > towards that endeavor was to build a Mesa/stepper motor based, cnc
> > router and learn a little LCNC along the way.   The router project
> > went very smoothly, especially given how little I initially knew
> > about LCNC.  Tackling the servo based R2E4 was still pretty far
> > outside my comfort zone however.  Getting all of the servo stuff set
> > up properly seemed like it posed enough challenges that I didn't
> > want to kill a working mill just for the sake of upgrading the
> > control.   I kept putting off changing out that old, slow, Motorola
> > 68k based control until it gave up the "axis enable" ghost a couple
> > months ago.  For all intents and purposes, the machine had become a
> > boat anchor overnight.  At that point I figured I had little to
> > loose by tearing into it.  Since I had all of the schematics to
>
>   the machine, I started mapping out all of the gazinta's and
> gazouta's.  All pretty straightforward stuff.   Next I moved into the
> cabinets and removed everything but the large analog axis drive power
> supply, the large contactors (for drive enable, spindle
> forward/revers, etc), the wiring that went to the axis
> drives/encoders, and much of the fundamental cabinet-cabinet wiring
> and power distribution.  Snip Snip and I had a heaping pile of circuit
> boards, card cages, wires, etc.  Since the old servo drives were now
> in the junk pile, I needed to find a replacement that would work with
> Mesa hardware.  My good friend pointed me to these step/direction
> drive/category/88/> based servo drives which have servo tuning firmware
> built into them.  (anyone else use them?  feedback??)  I installed new
> encoders on the servos and wired everything up.  A few solid state
> relays were added to drive the air brake solenoid, spi ndle speed
> motor/sheave, forward/reverse contactors, etc. from the Mesa card.  
> Even added a 4th axis channel.  For the smoke test, I opened all of
> the circuit breakers, and slowly brought the machine up one breaker at
> a time.  No smoke!  After basic LCNC configuration, we had motion and
> made chips.  Everything worked like a champ and it was a fun project
> that only consumed about 4 weekends of my time.  (thankfully, that
> mill is a hobby, and not my livelihood!)
>
> > And now for my question.  The old Bridgeport had a button on the
> > front panel titled "No Z" that turned off all z motion and let me
> > "air mill" a part as a sanity check of my X & Y boundaries/fixtures.
> >  I can't find the equivalent functionality in LCNC and was wondering
> > if anyone here has done this, or knows the best way to implement it.
> >  (the LCNC display certainly shows the part and the toolpath, but
> > for me, it's so much better to see the part actually move under a
> > motionless cutter)  Ideally, I would like to have a button in AXIS
> > that performs that task much as it did on the original Bridgeport
> > control.
> >
> > Many thanks to all of you talented individuals who contribute here!
> >
> > Brent
> > 
> >-- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
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Re: [Emc-users] Success story and a question

[andy pugh]

On 8 August 2018 at 03:17, Brent Loschen  wrote:

> And now for my question.  The old Bridgeport had a button on the front panel
> titled "No Z" that turned off all z motion and let me "air mill" a part as a
> sanity check of my X & Y boundaries/fixtures.  I can't find the equivalent
> functionality in LCNC and was wondering if anyone here has done this, or
> knows the best way to implement it.

I suspect this would start off looking easy and turn out to be
surprisingly difficult.

Turning off the Z is pretty easy, you would disable the Z stepgen and
(at the same time) connect  joint.2.motor-pos-fb to
joint,2,motor-pos-cmd rather than to hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.2.position-fb.

Now the machine thinks that Z is moving, so it is happy, and the
stepgen is disabled, so no steps are sent. That just needs a mux2
component in the HAL.

But what happens when you release the button? Suddenly the machine
will realise that the Z axis is not where you told it it was, and you
will get an immediate following error. Also, the Z will attempt to
move to the "real" position at a speed only limited by the stepgen
accel and velocity limits.

So you probably need some Hal-trickery to gently move the Z back in to
commanded position, while at the same time lying about the position to
prevent following error being triggered.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc run problems

[Marcus Bowman]

On 8 Aug 2018, at 01:29, Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Tuesday 07 August 2018 19:26:41 Mark Wendt wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018, 19:03 Gene Heskett   wrote:
>>> The joint 2 following error is likely stopping it before it can move
>>> the on-screen DRO more than 2 or 3 counts if that far.

Two thoughts:
First: I had a joint following error which occurred because the machine was 
trying to exceed acceleration limits for the axis. Those limits were set in the 
ini file, so I edited that and eliminated the problem. But I can't see how that 
would happen if you have not recently altered the ini file.
Second thought is:
Can you disable the automatic axis zeroing cycle, and just use manual home 
setting, and see what happens? That way, the machine should not even attempt to 
move any axis until you home them all manually, by clicking on the Home button, 
and not actually moving the axis.
Then you can jog each axis individually. You can also move each individually at 
various speeds for various distances and see what happens.

Marcus

>>> Double-check
>>> all your db25's to make sure they are screwed together solidly, and
>>> if thats not it, double check the interface card (if using one, like
>>> a 5i25 etc, and not a mobo parport) to make sure its sitting solidly
>>> in the motherboard socket. The Oak shoe-boxes intel shipped with the
>>> MW525 mobo's, have a tendency to lift the rear of the interface
>>> board out of its pci socket.
>>> 
>>> A different instance in one of my machines, the G0704, I had to cut
>>> 1/2" off the ends of the ribbon, and put my vice to good use by
>>> reinstalling the plugs to the cable, padding the open side of the
>>> connector with a stick of pine so as not to crush the metallic
>>> shell. That was 2 or 3 years ago, and has given me no further
>>> trouble.  It had worked the cable back out of the idc pins almost
>>> 1/16", enough to kill some of the connections.  No stress on it,
>>> thermal
>> 
>> Compaq desktop computer. Two PCI parallel port cards. Heavy duty
>> parallel cables I bought years ago. You'd have to hit 'em with a .50
>> BMG to do any damage to them. Both cables ohm'd out good. Both cards
>> are well seated in their respective PCI slots.
>> 
>> It takes a couple of seconds for the velocity to ramp up on the
>> display before the joint 2 error pops up. No change during that time
>> in the Z axis position on the display.
>> 
>> Mark
> 
> Thats weirdsville Mark. Have you attempted to move the machines other 
> axis's? Since z on a mill is commonly homed first to get it up the post 
> and out of the way, maybe the x and y can still be moved from the 
> keyboard? On a lathe, x is first to home just to get it backed out and 
> out of the way, or at least thats how I have mine sequenced.
> 
> Time to get out the scope from the sounds of this.  Does the breakout 
> board have tally led's on its outputs?  They might be helpfull. If the 
> bob doesn't, scope time.
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
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> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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