Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Jon Elson]

On 08/11/2018 08:03 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 11 August 2018 20:14:46 Jon Elson wrote:


On 08/11/2018 03:37 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:29:43 andy pugh wrote:

On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett

 wrote:

Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)

Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no
mention of the
resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is
king, and much
cheaper to implement.

Thanks Andy.

Analog Devices 2S1200 will track a two-pole resolver to
60,000 RPM (1000 RPS).

Jon

And the heat sink and fans are how big?

The 2S1200 chip is CMOS, and runs completely cold.  Don't 
know about the 60K RPM motor.
We have a thing that spins a sample in an MRI magnet field 
at work at 300K RPM (5000 RPS).
it is a tiny ceramic thing with notches in it, it forms an 
air bearing and an air jet shoots at the notches to spin in 
like a turbine.  CRAZY technology.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 August 2018 20:14:46 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 08/11/2018 03:37 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:29:43 andy pugh wrote:
> >> On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett
> >>
> >>  wrote:
> >>> Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)
> >
> > Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no
> > mention of the
> > resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is
> > king, and much
> > cheaper to implement.
> >
> > Thanks Andy.
>
> Analog Devices 2S1200 will track a two-pole resolver to
> 60,000 RPM (1000 RPS).
>
> Jon

And the heat sink and fans are how big?
>
>
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--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 August 2018 17:02:49 andy pugh wrote:

> On 11 August 2018 at 21:37, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no mention
> > of the resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is
> > king, and much cheaper to implement.
>
> Resolvers are absolute and much tougher.

It appears that Omron's use of precision bearings seems to addressing the 
toughness aspect. Mine, on the rear of the spindle motor with as high as 
a nominally 14/1 speed, seems to be bulletproof of anything but a 
setscrew in the drive untightened from the last re-assembly. I haven't 
tried it, but with the index still coming from the spindle, I'd imagine 
I can orient the spindle for a tool change to well with a degree. 
Meaning its absolute once an index has been seen after I change gears. 
And with the same type of logic chain as the tach and pid correction is 
done, either gear should be more than accurate enough to allow the next 
r8 to slide in and engage its drive pin. mpja has a small motor with an 
8" or so length of travel that should have the moxie to lower an r8, 
another smaller one to swing it halfway, then raise it to the top and 
swing it on over to the carousel and lower it into and empty socket 
there, a third motor moves the carousel to the next tool needed, engages 
it in the transfer arm, lifts it out of the carousel, swings back 
halfway, runs to the bottom of its travel, swings under the spindle, 
then lifts the new tool into the spindle, turning on the rattle wrench 
to loosen the drawbar, and tighten it again at the correct times.

First thing I'll need is a big sheet of 1/2" alu plate, bolted to the 
back of the post, to mount the bearings for both the carousel, and the 
transfer arm, shaft and serving as a reaction anchor for the motors that 
move stuff.

Oh, and another, shorter motorized screw anchored to the top of the post 
to lift the rattle wrench out of drawbar engagement. Or a fixed mount 
that engages when the Z is raised to the top of the post. That would 
only cost me the top half inch of Z, and I could lose that unless the 
drill is too long. So that shortcut is likely ruled out.

Thinking out loud...  Time to see if I can find some decently hard 1/2" 
thick sheet alu. And ask mpja just how much travel that particular 
motor/screw has since the little flyer doesn't say. And see how many 
outputs I have left on a 5i25's P2. Might have to spend another $200 for 
another 7i90HD & 3 ea 7i42TA's in order to get enough i in the i/o. In 
fact I'm sure of that.

> As for speed limits, that really only comes down to excitation
> frequency.

And the a/d conversions. High resolution takes time. And dual slope for 
accuracy is likely waaay too slow.

-- 
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--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Jon Elson]

On 08/11/2018 03:37 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:29:43 andy pugh wrote:

On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett 
 wrote:

Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)
Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no 
mention of the
resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is 
king, and much

cheaper to implement.

Thanks Andy.

Analog Devices 2S1200 will track a two-pole resolver to 
60,000 RPM (1000 RPS).


Jon



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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Jon Elson]

On 08/11/2018 02:29 PM, andy pugh wrote:
On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett 
 wrote:



Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)

Also, you can look at the Analog Devices 2S1200 chip, which 
is one classical way to get info from a resolver.


Jon



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Re: [Emc-users] resolvers vs encoders was: Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 August 2018 16:46:27 jeremy youngs wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 3:32 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:24:17 Ken Strauss wrote:
> > > I was also curious and found
> > > https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faq-why-are-so-many-designers-re
> > >plac ing-re solvers-with-encoders/
> >
> > Some excellent discussions there Ken, thank you.
> >
> > One thing that was mentioned in another page there but only in
> > passing was ptfe (teflon) in re sliding ways surfaces,
>
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fu
>lk%2Fitm%2F263619540144 

Sold out...  Sniff.

>I have been using this . I also milled slots in 
> ways and used typar to fill slots , the tape is much easier and the
> give need less material removal for proper clearance when done. As to
> longevity of tape , I haven't used it long , so the verdict is out ,
> it makes a big difference though.
>
>
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-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 4:09 PM andy pugh  wrote:

>
> Yes, in "a" mode the bldc component can be used to convert resolver
> angle to commutation signals.
>


Sweet
>


Did your motor and drive start off life together?

No , I totally lucked into this motor from my favorite surplus outlet at
$200 to my door. I have swapped spindle motors 4 times in 2 years searching
for more power at liw speed. I figure at 6 hp , and 37.5 nm it ought to do
well. First I bought the wrong drive , then I bought the amt 31 encoder,
harness And programming cable only to find out that I did not need
bidirectional u,v,w signal for that drive.
I bought 2 wsdi bpu s3 32 30 drives 3 months ago for almost nothing. I have
verified these will function with sinusoidal commutatation by using 2 legs
of an old synchronous motor I had , I was also able to spin it with the
communication encoder , although I never got it stable , and I again
believe bilateral outpur us the issue. As I'm swinging an 8 inch facemill
the added torque of sinusoidal drive is very appealing.
Of note on the wsdi drive , I would have started with trying to get these
functional but it took me 3 months to get documentation .


If so, I would
> expect the resolvers to connect to the drive and for the drive to use
> the resolvers for commutation.
>
> My other possibilitiy is an amc resolver interface drive , it's around
> $400 so not in the near future
>
> > Correct me if I'm wrong been hashing docs in my spare time.
> > 1 open terminal , start hal session
> > 2 load bldc n qhi ??
>
> Not QHI if you don't have Hall sensors.
>
> > I seen an 8i20 confirmation on the forum , could I start with that ,
> > globally replace 8i20 with 7i90 ?
>
> No, the 8i20 is a motor driver, the 7i90 is an IO card.
>
> I will give it a shot sometime in the next 24
>
>
> --
>

atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Eric Keller]

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 4:37 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
> Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no mention of the
> resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is king, and much
> cheaper to implement.
>
> I only have resolvers because I got them used, so encoders aren't always
cheaper.  STMBL reads resolvers. I have some motors I considered converting
to encoders, but that doesn't make sense now.  But resolvers have certainly
fallen out of favor from their peak. I'm sure they aren't going away.

I have some motors with three phase resolvers, apparently used for
commutation and position.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania
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Re: [Emc-users] Has anyone played around with this: Pi-paraport

[andy pugh]

On 10 August 2018 at 01:30, Greg Bentzinger via Emc-users
 wrote:
> Has anyone played around with this: Pi-paraport

I made some of these, and gave them away at the Wichita fest:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vi8GJQZfBKV94jnH8

I am currently trying to get the Machinekit Pi GPIO driver to compile
on LinuxCNC. (many years later, and for unrelated reasons)

LinuxCNC would not need or want the p-port described in the link.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 11 August 2018 at 21:41, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> 7i49, budget don't allow for it for a few weeks . I am busy in the shop
> with big jobs , yes I have contemplated the 7i49 . Can the communication
> signal be derived from the 7i49 ? If so then it's likely that will be my
> eventuality.

Yes, in "a" mode the bldc component can be used to convert resolver
angle to commutation signals.

Did your motor and drive start off life together? If so, I would
expect the resolvers to connect to the drive and for the drive to use
the resolvers for commutation.

> Correct me if I'm wrong been hashing docs in my spare time.
> 1 open terminal , start hal session
> 2 load bldc n qhi ??

Not QHI if you don't have Hall sensors.

> I seen an 8i20 confirmation on the forum , could I start with that ,
> globally replace 8i20 with 7i90 ?

No, the 8i20 is a motor driver, the 7i90 is an IO card.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 11 August 2018 at 21:37, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no mention of the
> resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is king, and much
> cheaper to implement.

Resolvers are absolute and much tougher.
As for speed limits, that really only comes down to excitation frequency.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] resolvers vs encoders was: Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 3:32 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:24:17 Ken Strauss wrote:
>
> > I was also curious and found
> > https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faq-why-are-so-many-designers-replac
> >ing-re solvers-with-encoders/
>
> Some excellent discussions there Ken, thank you.
>
> One thing that was mentioned in another page there but only in passing
> was ptfe (teflon) in re sliding ways surfaces,
>
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F263619540144
I have been using this . I also milled slots in ways and used typar to fill
slots , the tape is much easier and the give need less material removal for
proper clearance when done. As to longevity of tape , I haven't used it
long , so the verdict is out , it makes a big difference though.

>
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

7i49, budget don't allow for it for a few weeks . I am busy in the shop
with big jobs , yes I have contemplated the 7i49 . Can the communication
signal be derived from the 7i49 ? If so then it's likely that will be my
eventuality.

Correct me if I'm wrong been hashing docs in my spare time.
1 open terminal , start hal session
2 load bldc n qhi ??
Assign pins u,v to the pwm and direction pins
Write and wait till it works then save, copy and paste to hal file ?

I seen an 8i20 confirmation on the forum , could I start with that ,
globally replace 8i20 with 7i90 ? I would like to get this close this
weekend and contact kollmorgen to get the proper communication scheme and
what phase angle is needed for this motor .
Thank you
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:29:43 andy pugh wrote:

> On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)

Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no mention of the 
resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is king, and much 
cheaper to implement.

Thanks Andy.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] resolvers vs encoders was: Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:24:17 Ken Strauss wrote:

> I was also curious and found
> https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faq-why-are-so-many-designers-replac
>ing-re solvers-with-encoders/

Some excellent discussions there Ken, thank you.

One thing that was mentioned in another page there but only in passing 
was ptfe (teflon) in re sliding ways surfaces, and I'm curious about 
whether anyone has compared the teflon formula that comes in a 4 to 8 oz 
blue bottle from Dupont from the home centers, with the performance of 
the typical iso 68 vactra way oil. I occasionally have trouble with both 
mills getting away from the end of travel because of the rather severe 
unbalanced binding force of the x ways when the table is trying to get 
back to center at the end of the homing operation. My final home speeds 
are about 1/3rd of what it can do when more nearly centered if I want it 
to home reliably.

So for the next experiment since neither machine has anything resembling 
a one shot lube system for the ways, is to find out if this ptfe 
carrying lube is lower friction under this unbalanced load than two week 
old and dirty, drying out Vactra, when the ptfe tiger piss is also dried 
out. Or should I dismount the screws, remove the table, and drill the 
top of the Y slider so I can run some weedeater fuel line in and make a 
one shot I can feed from someplace on the post?  I'd done it for the 
ball nuts in the micro-mill because they have no dirt shielding 
whatsoever, but not for the way sliders.

What say the experts?

Thanks all.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Ken Strauss]

I was also curious and found
https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faq-why-are-so-many-designers-replacing-re
solvers-with-encoders/

> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2018 3:12 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation
>
> On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:03:28 andy pugh wrote:
>
> > On 11 August 2018 at 19:48, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> > > I am planning on ignoring them at this time . I have a cui encoder
> > > that can go on it.
> >
> > Does the budget extend to a 7i49?
> >
> > You can probably use a pair of 7i49 analogue outputs per drive to
> > create the two phase voltages. (and use the inputs to read the
> > resolvers)
>
> Kind of off topic for this thread, but:
>
> Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?
>
> Theory, and how they maintain an absolute position, that sort of thing.
>
>
> --
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:03:28 andy pugh wrote:

> On 11 August 2018 at 19:48, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> > I am planning on ignoring them at this time . I have a cui encoder
> > that can go on it.
>
> Does the budget extend to a 7i49?
>
> You can probably use a pair of 7i49 analogue outputs per drive to
> create the two phase voltages. (and use the inputs to read the
> resolvers)

Kind of off topic for this thread, but:

Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?

Theory, and how they maintain an absolute position, that sort of thing.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 11 August 2018 at 19:48, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> I am planning on ignoring them at this time . I have a cui encoder that can
> go on it.

Does the budget extend to a 7i49?

You can probably use a pair of 7i49 analogue outputs per drive to
create the two phase voltages. (and use the inputs to read the
resolvers)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

I am planning on ignoring them at this time . I have a cui encoder that can
go on it.

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 1:24 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On 10 August 2018 at 23:11, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> > Good day gents. Trying to get a handle on sinusoidal commutatation. I
> need
> > 2 pins 0-5 volt 120 degrees out of phase to commutate my drive .
> > http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/bldc.9.html#OPERATING%20MODES
> > I find this in the docs , and am curious if the 7i90 can be coaxed to do
> > this and I don't necessarily know where to begin. My motor is a
> kollmorgen
> > eb 404 , with resolver and no Halls
>
>
> How are you reading the resolvers?
> (Or are you ignoring the reseovers)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 10 August 2018 at 23:11, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> Good day gents. Trying to get a handle on sinusoidal commutatation. I need
> 2 pins 0-5 volt 120 degrees out of phase to commutate my drive .
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/bldc.9.html#OPERATING%20MODES
> I find this in the docs , and am curious if the 7i90 can be coaxed to do
> this and I don't necessarily know where to begin. My motor is a kollmorgen
> eb 404 , with resolver and no Halls


How are you reading the resolvers?
(Or are you ignoring the reseovers)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

--
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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