Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

Windows has had a Hardware Abstraction Layer and Application Programming 
Interface for a long time, the objective is to make it much easier for hardware 
companies to interface their hardware with the software.

A manufacturer of a device like a 4th axis could provide the software required 
to operate it as a 'plugin' to the CNC operating system's universal software 
interface.

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 11:34:28 AM MST, Bari  
wrote: 

How many CNC machine startup's have there been in the past few years? 
Maybe a handful in some niche markets? The vendors in China offer the 
popular CNC controllers that we all are accustomed to or use ARM 
controllers similar to NVEM.

There have been several additive manufacturing start ups in the past few 
years but their investors and business strategy requires them to start 
from scratch and reinvent the wheels of PC controllers, Mesa FPGAs and 
LCNC. They don't want anything to be shared with their competition even 
though it can shave years off of getting a machine to market.


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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Chris Albertson]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 6:11 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:03 PM John Dammeyer 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I should probably buy another high speed 16GB or 32GB MicroSD in prep
> for
> > > creating a 2.9 system that runs Path Pilot.
> > >
> >
> > Skip the SD card.  Pi4 runs faster with a USB3 SSD.This used to be an
> > expensive luxury but now if you have a spare USB3 external drive it's
> free.
>
> That's not a bad idea.  I'll look into that.  I have a USB to 2.5" hard
> drive adaptor.
>
> >
> > Another option is a server to hold the Pi4's files.  It is not as slow as
> > you might think if you use 1Gb Ethernet.  Then it is fun to do a "df" on
> > the Pi4 and see that it has 12TB of free space, but the real advantage is
> > the files live on the server that uses a versioned file system and is
> > continuously backed up.
>
> No idea if 1 GB Ethernet can be put onto a USB3.  I'm using the Ethernet
> connector on the Pi for MESA 7i92H.
>

NFS does run over WiFi.  I'm not sure of the performance.I have a Pi4
inside a robot and all the Python code to run the robot lives on the server
and is NFS mounted over WiFi but.

In your case the files wuld live on the local USB drive and you's likely
only use NFS for moving files or common things that you want on every
computer (like a ~/Downloads, /gcode and such

> >
> > Chris Albertson
> > Redondo Beach, California
>
> John
>
>
>
>
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[gene heskett]

On 1/26/23 20:01, John Dammeyer wrote:

So at the moment this is where I sit with the Pi4B (1GB) on the lab bench.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/Pi4-LinuxCNC-hardware.jpg

The Chinese BoB is at the top left.  The other two BoBs are ones I had kicking 
around.  The board in the yellow box takes TTL step/dir/enable and Fault and 
converts it into the correct format DB-25 for Bergerda AC Servo drives with 
differential signals rather than TTL.  There's also a little expansion board 
that takes PWM and changes it to 0-10V.

The little blue dongle is the CANUSB that talks to a module which controls Mist 
Motor Speed and signals to load or unload the draw bar.

And it does run LinuxCNC AXIS 2.8.2
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/LinuxCNC-2.8-Pi4B-1GB.png

I should probably buy another high speed 16GB or 32GB MicroSD in prep for 
creating a 2.9 system that runs Path Pilot.

Within the os size limits, the bigger the u-sd, the longer it lives. I 
have had zero failures with 64G cards. Numerous with 8, and a few with 16.



Actually should probably pick up a tiny milling machine and do a conversion on 
it with this hardware in mind.
John



Excellent idea, but make it a big enough machine to be useful.
Take care and stay well, John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> 
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:03 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I should probably buy another high speed 16GB or 32GB MicroSD in prep for
> > creating a 2.9 system that runs Path Pilot.
> >
> 
> Skip the SD card.  Pi4 runs faster with a USB3 SSD.This used to be an
> expensive luxury but now if you have a spare USB3 external drive it's free.

That's not a bad idea.  I'll look into that.  I have a USB to 2.5" hard drive 
adaptor.

> 
> Another option is a server to hold the Pi4's files.  It is not as slow as
> you might think if you use 1Gb Ethernet.  Then it is fun to do a "df" on
> the Pi4 and see that it has 12TB of free space, but the real advantage is
> the files live on the server that uses a versioned file system and is
> continuously backed up.

No idea if 1 GB Ethernet can be put onto a USB3.  I'm using the Ethernet 
connector on the Pi for MESA 7i92H.
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California

John




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Re: [Emc-users] custom m codes tutorial and cnc lathe bar pulling

[gene heskett]

On 1/26/23 16:42, andrew beck wrote:

hey guys

just wanted to let people know i just made a tutorial on custom m codes and
i couldn't find much info on it and wanted to help the next guy and remind
myself when i forget next time lol

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/10-advanced-configuration/48071-custom-m-codes-and-bar-puller-set-up#262959


and also if any of you machinists have good tips for bar pulling on a cnc
lathe i would love the ideas i have never done it before

regards

Andrew



I don't have a bar puller, not even a 5C collet, just an ER42 collet 
kit. If I am doing multiple copies, I position the tool to act as a 
stopper, loosen the big nut and push the rod thru to touch the tool, 
tightening the nut again gets me a couple thou clearance but that can be 
compensated for in your program. With a reasonable speed of bar pusher 
so it does not damage the tool when it hits the tool, it ought to work 
till you are out of that bar.


One could put a microswitch in the position of the tool to automate 
that, including a shutdown when the bar no longer trips the switch in a 
long enough time it should have tripped.


With a couple solenoids to engage the nut wrench, and a reversible vfd, 
that all could be programmed. Even to ejecting the bars remains and 
feeding a new one from a rack of them could be done.


Lots of ways to skin that cat. This is just three ideas.

Take care and stay well, Andrew.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Chris Albertson]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:03 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

>
> I should probably buy another high speed 16GB or 32GB MicroSD in prep for
> creating a 2.9 system that runs Path Pilot.
>

Skip the SD card.  Pi4 runs faster with a USB3 SSD.This used to be an
expensive luxury but now if you have a spare USB3 external drive it's free.

Another option is a server to hold the Pi4's files.  It is not as slow as
you might think if you use 1Gb Ethernet.  Then it is fun to do a "df" on
the Pi4 and see that it has 12TB of free space, but the real advantage is
the files live on the server that uses a versioned file system and is
continuously backed up.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

So at the moment this is where I sit with the Pi4B (1GB) on the lab bench.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/Pi4-LinuxCNC-hardware.jpg

The Chinese BoB is at the top left.  The other two BoBs are ones I had kicking 
around.  The board in the yellow box takes TTL step/dir/enable and Fault and 
converts it into the correct format DB-25 for Bergerda AC Servo drives with 
differential signals rather than TTL.  There's also a little expansion board 
that takes PWM and changes it to 0-10V.

The little blue dongle is the CANUSB that talks to a module which controls Mist 
Motor Speed and signals to load or unload the draw bar.

And it does run LinuxCNC AXIS 2.8.2
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/LinuxCNC-2.8-Pi4B-1GB.png

I should probably buy another high speed 16GB or 32GB MicroSD in prep for 
creating a 2.9 system that runs Path Pilot.

Actually should probably pick up a tiny milling machine and do a conversion on 
it with this hardware in mind.
John




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Re: [Emc-users] custom m codes tutorial and cnc lathe bar pulling

[Ed]

On 1/26/23 2:57 PM, andrew beck wrote:

hey guys


and also if any of you machinists have good tips for bar pulling on a cnc
lathe i would love the ideas i have never done it before

regards

Andrew


How big of bar do you want to pull? What kind of machine


I have run runs of over 1K pieces with a bar puller on my CHNC Hardinge 
with LCNC. 1/4" to 1" easily.



Ed.




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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[rehenry]

> On 1/26/23 13:43, rehe...@fast-air.net wrote:
>>
>> The HIWIN AC drive manual mentioned recently in another thread begins
>> with
>> a couple fascinating cautions.
>>
>> * Do not dismantle or modify the product.
>>
>> * Before installing or using the product, check the external appearance.
>>
>> * Do not try to repair any product malfunctions.
>>
>> If we applied this thinking to EMC... pardon me, LCNC we would do
>> nothing
>> at all with it.
>>
>> EMC was an experiment by the NIST. (National Institute of Standards and
>> Technology) It moved into the open when Matt Shaver asked NIST if their
>> stuff was open source.  At that point Matt was a NOOB, as was John Elson
>> and Dan Falck soon after.
>>
>> I'm probably misquoting Robert Heinlein, but he taught me that, "We
>> learn
>> from mistakes, if we learn at all."  So let's rejoice in our civil
>> NOOBS,
>> and ignore the less than civil ones... help when we are able. and take
>> pleasure in LCNC and those who enjoy it.
>>
>> I remember watching a German built 6 axis mini hexapod, half the size of
>> a
>> sheet of paper jumping around on Till's desk.  The EMC was running on an
>> old 486 processor.  Damn that was thrilling.
>>
>> Ray
>>
>
> Ray Henry, a voice from the past! I'm the Gene in an Econoline van that
> stole most of your butternut for 50 bucks all those years ago. Some of
> it is the paneling in my kitchen cabinets now.  And gets the oohs and
> aahs by visiting frogs. And thanks for the impromptu picnic in your back
> yard the night before.
>
> I hope your health is holding up, I'm 88, alone now with a chest full of
> new parts but doing well for the years.
>
> Take care and stay well
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 

Hi Gene.  Been reading posts and appreciate your continued work with the
project.  Forgot about your "theft" glad that you got good use out of it.

Ray


>
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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Chris,
I've book marked your posting.
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/pathpilot/45286-pathpilot-v2-source-code?start=30
Looking forward to see if you get a link to the code.
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-25-23 2:11 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a
> development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop a
> product.
> 
> Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have computer
> skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we see on this
> email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most machinists just want
> to make parts and not futz with the tools, especially if the tools involve
> computers.
> 
> We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older men
> who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning to turn
> handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't understand completely
> outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory
> machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the
> byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making anything by
> hand.
> 
> We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old guys
> who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made anything by
> hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess with tools.
> 
> Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Todd,
> > First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has nothing
> > to do with the subject line.
> >
> > And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or looked into
> > LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your statement:
> >
> > " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold
> > the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning anything, charge
> > accordingly."
> >
> > Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green noob and
> > can't figure out LCNC or Linux"
> >
> > Personally I think the theme of the original post and conversation was how
> > easy is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot on non Tormach
> > Hardware.
> >
> > IMHO, a lot more people would be interested in LCNC if there was a simple
> > easy to follow, step by step method of setting up a 4 axis mill.  The
> > menu's for setting up motors etc. in AXIS either for the parallel port
> > (almost extinct) or the MESA boards is really good but doesn't go far
> > enough.
> >
> > There are a few youtube videos out there that show how to select motors
> > based on mass of the system and acme or ball screw or belt reduction.  But
> > the learning curve is steep and is just easier with systems that are not
> > LCNC.
> >
> > John
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pgrahamdunn.com]
> > > Sent: January-24-23 11:45 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> > >
> > > I'd like see the retrofit CNC package on the market (other than
> > Linuxcnc) that can run an 8 head/spindle gang
> > > router, with individual Z axis and VFD control for each spindle.  I'm
> > sorry but freedom of customization comes
> > > at the cost of complexity.  If you want the freedom to be able to
> > use/run almost anything, you're going to
> > > have to know something about both the hardware and software.  You want
> > simple buy some simple 4 axis all
> > > in one stepper box and plug it in.
> > >
> > > Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold
> > the hand of a green noob who isn't
> > > interested in learning anything, charge accordingly.
> > >
> > > Todd Zuercher
> > > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > > 630 Henry Street
> > > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: John Dammeyer 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 1:39 PM
> > > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'  > >
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> > >
> > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> > >
> > > > From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > > > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale
> > > > > adoption of LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
> > > >
> > > > There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are
> > _all_ terrible?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_
> > terrible.
> > >
> > > Imagine your av

[Emc-users] custom m codes tutorial and cnc lathe bar pulling

[andrew beck]

hey guys

just wanted to let people know i just made a tutorial on custom m codes and
i couldn't find much info on it and wanted to help the next guy and remind
myself when i forget next time lol

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/10-advanced-configuration/48071-custom-m-codes-and-bar-puller-set-up#262959


and also if any of you machinists have good tips for bar pulling on a cnc
lathe i would love the ideas i have never done it before

regards

Andrew

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[gene heskett]

On 1/26/23 13:43, rehe...@fast-air.net wrote:


The HIWIN AC drive manual mentioned recently in another thread begins with
a couple fascinating cautions.

* Do not dismantle or modify the product.

* Before installing or using the product, check the external appearance.

* Do not try to repair any product malfunctions.

If we applied this thinking to EMC... pardon me, LCNC we would do nothing
at all with it.

EMC was an experiment by the NIST. (National Institute of Standards and
Technology) It moved into the open when Matt Shaver asked NIST if their
stuff was open source.  At that point Matt was a NOOB, as was John Elson
and Dan Falck soon after.

I'm probably misquoting Robert Heinlein, but he taught me that, "We learn
from mistakes, if we learn at all."  So let's rejoice in our civil NOOBS,
and ignore the less than civil ones... help when we are able. and take
pleasure in LCNC and those who enjoy it.

I remember watching a German built 6 axis mini hexapod, half the size of a
sheet of paper jumping around on Till's desk.  The EMC was running on an
old 486 processor.  Damn that was thrilling.

Ray



Ray Henry, a voice from the past! I'm the Gene in an Econoline van that 
stole most of your butternut for 50 bucks all those years ago. Some of 
it is the paneling in my kitchen cabinets now.  And gets the oohs and 
aahs by visiting frogs. And thanks for the impromptu picnic in your back 
yard the night before.


I hope your health is holding up, I'm 88, alone now with a chest full of 
new parts but doing well for the years.


Take care and stay well

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

And another addendum.
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/47796-install-rt-kernel-and-linuxcnc-2-9-on-rpi4#260565


> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: January-26-23 10:41 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> Just an addendum.  Likely Peter at MESA can create a different 7i92 file that 
> fills the need for the Chinese BoB.
> Here's a comment that is inside my Pi4 MESA hal file.
> Note I identify the .pin file for the MESA.
> Note too that there is no secondary function on pin 1 which is configured as 
> an output for the machine enable
> signal.
> 
> No beginner is going to want to start cutting traces to redirect one of the 
> PWM output modules to the first
> DB25-1.  So to truly make the 7i92H compatible with the Chinese BoB it needs 
> a different .pin file.  But there's
> no point if we can't first create a Tormach Pi4 LCNC image file.
> 
> # external I/O signals
> # IO Connections for P2 MESA 7i92_C11Gx2D.pin  (from file)
> # Pin#  I/O   Pri. funcSec. func   Chan  Pin funcPin Dir
> 
> #  1  0   IOPort   None   
> machine-is-
> enabled (output)
> John
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > Sent: January-26-23 10:09 AM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> >
> > Different strokes for different people.
> > Tormach supplies a niche market and is surviving. :-)
> > I went the other way and bought a machine with a dead control at
> > auction. Trucked it in, shoved it thru the door of my shop and then
> > spent the next year getting it running, New servo amps, servo-to-go
> > card,? encoders on the ballscrew, etc. Not for someone that wants a
> > turnkey op. Resale is not good; e.g. Mazak converted at Galesburg went
> > out the door for way under 1K$ and that had the tool change working, new
> > driver cards, and I think new amps. Labor of love or a challenge but
> > certainly not a business opportunity!
> >
> > I must admit the subject prompted a lot of traffic.
> >
> > Dave
> > On 1/26/23 8:45 AM, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > > Nor do I! That is why I sent a pile of cash to Tormach instead of trying 
> > > to
> > > roll my own. It just works and allows me to make chips without worrying
> > > about editing files or applying updates that break things or... Others
> > > obviously favour different choices!
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Stuart Stevenson 
> > > Sent: January 26, 2023 11:38 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> > >
> > >   "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution 
> > > with
> > > only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
> > > this thankless task."
> > >
> > > Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business 
> > > by
> > > doing exactly that.
> > >
> > > And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
> > > An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.
> > >
> > > Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
> > > progress.
> > >
> > > thanks
> > > Stuart
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:
> > >
> > >> "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution
> > >> with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody
> > >> wants to do this thankless task."
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable
> > >> business by doing exactly that.
> > >>
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Eric Keller 
> > >> Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
> > >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > >> 
> > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a
> > >>> commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users
> > >>> are uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying
> > >>> configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the
> > >>> possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without
> > >>> magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.
> > >> Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc
> > >> has is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because
> > >> they wanted to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are
> > >> plenty of people that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a
> > >> Rpi4.  But both the
> > >> Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and
> > >> neither are really mainline lcn

Re: [Emc-users] CNC Shaper Project

[Matthew Herd]

>
> I don't think that there is much benefit in servo-ing this element of
> the machine.
> I would suggest that a simple (long) flag on the bull gear could be
> used to determine if the machine is on the cut or return stroke, with
> feed-hold asserted during the cut stroke. Otherwise you might as well
> retain the original motor.
>
> A rotary axis to mount on the table might be useful, though. As might
> a second one on the ram, for use in gear-shaping operations.
>

The primary reason for servo control of the ram is to enable it to stop
motion while fully retracted.  This could be achieved by VFD I suppose.
Alternately the operator could just turn the bull gear by hand as is done
presently.  You're right, a flag or encoder could also be used with the
standard (single phase) motor.  Is it possible to simply assert feed-hold
during cut?  I assume that the feed rate would be equal to the commanded
feed rate whenever feed-hold is not asserted?

The rotaries on the ram and table are definitely useful, but a bit more
than I'd like to bite off initially.  And not necessary for the production
use case.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 12:25 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 at 15:26, Matthew Herd  wrote:
>
> > The general concept is to put an encoder on the bull gear (which has
> fixed
> > timing with respect to the stroke of the ram), use a large servo as the
> > drive motor (although a VFD & 3 phase motor would also work, but this
> > allows easy positioning of the ram and I already have a servo with ample
> > power and torque).
>
> I don't think that there is much benefit in servo-ing this element of
> the machine.
> I would suggest that a simple (long) flag on the bull gear could be
> used to determine if the machine is on the cut or return stroke, with
> feed-hold asserted during the cut stroke. Otherwise you might as well
> retain the original motor.
>
> A rotary axis to mount on the table might be useful, though. As might
> a second one on the ram, for use in gear-shaping operations.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 
Matthew Herd
Email:  herd.m...@gmail.com
Cell:  610-608-8930

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

Just an addendum.  Likely Peter at MESA can create a different 7i92 file that 
fills the need for the Chinese BoB.  Here's a comment that is inside my Pi4 
MESA hal file.
Note I identify the .pin file for the MESA.  
Note too that there is no secondary function on pin 1 which is configured as an 
output for the machine enable signal.

No beginner is going to want to start cutting traces to redirect one of the PWM 
output modules to the first DB25-1.  So to truly make the 7i92H compatible with 
the Chinese BoB it needs a different .pin file.  But there's no point if we 
can't first create a Tormach Pi4 LCNC image file.

# external I/O signals
# IO Connections for P2 MESA 7i92_C11Gx2D.pin  (from file)
# Pin#  I/O   Pri. funcSec. func   Chan  Pin funcPin Dir

#  1  0   IOPort   None 
machine-is-enabled (output)
John

> -Original Message-
> From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> Sent: January-26-23 10:09 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> Different strokes for different people.
> Tormach supplies a niche market and is surviving. :-)
> I went the other way and bought a machine with a dead control at
> auction. Trucked it in, shoved it thru the door of my shop and then
> spent the next year getting it running, New servo amps, servo-to-go
> card,� encoders on the ballscrew, etc. Not for someone that wants a
> turnkey op. Resale is not good; e.g. Mazak converted at Galesburg went
> out the door for way under 1K$ and that had the tool change working, new
> driver cards, and I think new amps. Labor of love or a challenge but
> certainly not a business opportunity!
> 
> I must admit the subject prompted a lot of traffic.
> 
> Dave
> On 1/26/23 8:45 AM, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > Nor do I! That is why I sent a pile of cash to Tormach instead of trying to
> > roll my own. It just works and allows me to make chips without worrying
> > about editing files or applying updates that break things or... Others
> > obviously favour different choices!
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Stuart Stevenson 
> > Sent: January 26, 2023 11:38 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> >
> >   "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
> > only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
> > this thankless task."
> >
> > Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
> > doing exactly that.
> >
> > And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
> > An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.
> >
> > Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
> > progress.
> >
> > thanks
> > Stuart
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:
> >
> >> "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution
> >> with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody
> >> wants to do this thankless task."
> >>
> >> Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable
> >> business by doing exactly that.
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Eric Keller 
> >> Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> 
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:
> >>
> >>> To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a
> >>> commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users
> >>> are uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying
> >>> configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the
> >>> possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without
> >>> magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.
> >> Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc
> >> has is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because
> >> they wanted to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are
> >> plenty of people that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a
> >> Rpi4.  But both the
> >> Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and
> >> neither are really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on a Mesa
> >> board on a PC with decent latency (another sticking point,
> >> unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone mentioned 4 axis.  The problem
> >> with that is that everyone has their own 4th axis.  This is also the
> >> problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more than 90% of the
> >> problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is they have
> >> a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
> >> software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy
> >> something standard, and go install Mach.

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Bari]

How many CNC machine startup's have there been in the past few years? 
Maybe a handful in some niche markets? The vendors in China offer the 
popular CNC controllers that we all are accustomed to or use ARM 
controllers similar to NVEM.


There have been several additive manufacturing start ups in the past few 
years but their investors and business strategy requires them to start 
from scratch and reinvent the wheels of PC controllers, Mesa FPGAs and 
LCNC. They don't want anything to be shared with their competition even 
though it can shave years off of getting a machine to market.


On 1/26/23 10:37, Stuart Stevenson wrote:

  "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.

Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
progress.

thanks
Stuart


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:


"Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

-Original Message-
From: Eric Keller 
Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:


To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a
commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users are
uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying
configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the
possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without
magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.

Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc has
is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because they
wanted
to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are plenty of people
that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a Rpi4.  But both the
Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and neither are
really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on a Mesa board on a PC
with
decent latency (another sticking point, unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone
mentioned 4 axis.  The problem with that is that everyone has their own 4th
axis.  This is also the problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more
than
90% of the problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is
they
have a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy something
standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any time the subject
comes up.

The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something about it,
I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their own
distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that
nobody wants to do this thankless task.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania


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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

I have LCNC running on a Pi4 with the wired Ethernet to the 7i92H to two 
different BoBs.  One of them, the Chinese one, will have an identical friend in 
a month or so.  (assuming it ever arrives).  That's the BoB I reverse 
engineered and for which I now have a schematic.

The reason it was easy to make work is because I downloaded the Pi4 LCNC  image 
file and created the MicroSD card. Then copied over my PC based .ini and .hal 
files for the Mesa 7i92H and tweaked them for the Pi.  This all works.  I even 
have a CAN hat installed and send messages for the beginnings of a tool changer 
module and some user buttons and indicators on the AXIS screen.

But I also get the latency message 'once' on this system and have no idea why.  
However I think once I get the second BoB I'll dig further into that.

The advantage of the Mesa 7i92H is that for MACH3 users or beginners it's still 
just standard parallel ports.   And so yes.  Inputs are limited.  And yes you 
can't do closed loop servos.  And yes it's limited on I/O for complicated tool 
changers.  And yes those are all really important for those who want really 
precision machines.

But we're talking hobby types here. People who on some MACH systems haven't 
even bothered with limit or home switches.  

BTW, I've also done a BeagleBone Black with a cape and MachineKit and actually 
moved motors on my mill.  But that cape required NO limit switches.  I had to 
cut traces and change some things on the cape to get NC to work.  And when 
MachineKit support vanished so did the BBB.

So for those hobby types I think the Tormach interface (which originally used 
MACH3) would be more attractive.  But I don't even know where to start to 
create a Pi4 based Tormach LCNC.

So... If whoever put together the Pi4 LCNC with the AXIS screen would do a 
Tormach port, I likely could do the rest as far as the HAL and INI files for 
the COTS BoBs.   I'd even put together a machine drawing on how to connect.

Could almost run it on my mill except that I use the DB25-1 for Machine Enable 
and DB25-17 for a charge pump.  The smaller machines and hobby types would 
likely use stepper motors and neither of those absolutely require Enable or 
Charge Pump since the Chinese BoB doesn't have either as an input.

The Chinese BoB uses DB25-1 as an optional 0-10V out for VFD control (PWM with 
filter).  It also has a relay output on DB25-17 for something like Mist or 
Flood Coolant.  Most hobby users would likely use  VFD and coolant or just the 
relay for Spindle ON/OFF with belt changes or manual turn a knob speed.

Now my existing Spindle motor is an AC Servo and I use Step/Dir but it does 
also handle 0-10V.  The second Parallel port output on the 7i92 goes to the 
Chinese BoB and there I have the quadrature encoding for power tapping.

So yes, if you have an 8 axis spindle or whatever with ancient DC servos, 
resolvers etc on a 5000# piece of old iron then the Pi4 with 7i92H isn't for 
you.  But lately the push on some groups is on for the ClearPath or other 
step-servos (quite expensive compared to AC servos but what the heck).  

These people buy a new Precision Mathews mini mill and buy a turnkey with 
diagrams CNC controller locked into whatever that manufacturer will give them.  

I'd just like to see LCNC there with this marvelous support group instead.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Eric Keller [mailto:keller...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-26-23 7:01 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:
> 
> > To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a commercially
> > viable product. The vast majority of potential users are uncomfortable (or
> > don't want to bother) with manually modifying configuration files. Of course
> > the power of LinuxCNC is due to the possibility of configuring things for
> > all sorts of hardware. Without magic the flexibility means that it will
> > never be mainstream.
> 
> Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc
> has is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because
> they wanted to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are
> plenty of people that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a
> Rpi4.  But both the Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around,
> I think, and neither are really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis
> running on a Mesa board on a PC with decent latency (another sticking
> point, unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone mentioned 4 axis.  The
> problem with that is that everyone has their own 4th axis.  This is
> also the problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more than 90% of
> the problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is they
> have a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
> software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy
> something standard, and go install Mach. And

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[rehenry]

The HIWIN AC drive manual mentioned recently in another thread begins with
a couple fascinating cautions.

* Do not dismantle or modify the product.

* Before installing or using the product, check the external appearance.

* Do not try to repair any product malfunctions.

If we applied this thinking to EMC... pardon me, LCNC we would do nothing
at all with it.

EMC was an experiment by the NIST. (National Institute of Standards and
Technology) It moved into the open when Matt Shaver asked NIST if their
stuff was open source.  At that point Matt was a NOOB, as was John Elson
and Dan Falck soon after.

I'm probably misquoting Robert Heinlein, but he taught me that, "We learn
from mistakes, if we learn at all."  So let's rejoice in our civil NOOBS,
and ignore the less than civil ones... help when we are able. and take
pleasure in LCNC and those who enjoy it.

I remember watching a German built 6 axis mini hexapod, half the size of a
sheet of paper jumping around on Till's desk.  The EMC was running on an
old 486 processor.  Damn that was thrilling.

Ray


> I remember when Tormach started, they were supplying cnc machines loaded
> with Mach 3, they decided to go a different route as their product range
> increased.
>
> To quote part of their description:
>
> "If it's available, it's included. We eliminated the headaches of costly
> upgrades or a al carte pricing that holds advanced features behind a
> paywall."
>
> The nice thing about this is it is open source, you can get hold of it for
> no cost and, if you are a geek, you can take a look at how it was all put
> together. Nice!  Modify it also if you want. Nice!
>
> Try doing that with a Windows based commercial system.
>
> Martin




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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[dave engvall]

Different strokes for different people.
Tormach supplies a niche market and is surviving. :-)
I went the other way and bought a machine with a dead control at 
auction. Trucked it in, shoved it thru the door of my shop and then 
spent the next year getting it running, New servo amps, servo-to-go 
card,  encoders on the ballscrew, etc. Not for someone that wants a 
turnkey op. Resale is not good; e.g. Mazak converted at Galesburg went 
out the door for way under 1K$ and that had the tool change working, new 
driver cards, and I think new amps. Labor of love or a challenge but 
certainly not a business opportunity!


I must admit the subject prompted a lot of traffic.

Dave
On 1/26/23 8:45 AM, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:

Nor do I! That is why I sent a pile of cash to Tormach instead of trying to
roll my own. It just works and allows me to make chips without worrying
about editing files or applying updates that break things or... Others
obviously favour different choices!

-Original Message-
From: Stuart Stevenson 
Sent: January 26, 2023 11:38 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

  "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.

Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
progress.

thanks
Stuart


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:


"Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution
with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody
wants to do this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable
business by doing exactly that.

-Original Message-
From: Eric Keller 
Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)

Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:


To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a
commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users
are uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying
configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the
possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without
magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.

Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc
has is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because
they wanted to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are
plenty of people that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a
Rpi4.  But both the
Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and
neither are really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on a Mesa
board on a PC with decent latency (another sticking point,
unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone mentioned 4 axis.  The problem
with that is that everyone has their own 4th axis.  This is also the
problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more than 90% of the
problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is they have
a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy
something standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any
time the subject comes up.

The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something
about it, I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their
own distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me
that nobody wants to do this thankless task.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania


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If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read
this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or
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Thank you for honoring my wish.

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Re: [Emc-users] CNC Shaper Project

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 at 15:26, Matthew Herd  wrote:

> The general concept is to put an encoder on the bull gear (which has fixed
> timing with respect to the stroke of the ram), use a large servo as the
> drive motor (although a VFD & 3 phase motor would also work, but this
> allows easy positioning of the ram and I already have a servo with ample
> power and torque).

I don't think that there is much benefit in servo-ing this element of
the machine.
I would suggest that a simple (long) flag on the bull gear could be
used to determine if the machine is on the cut or return stroke, with
feed-hold asserted during the cut stroke. Otherwise you might as well
retain the original motor.

A rotary axis to mount on the table might be useful, though. As might
a second one on the ram, for use in gear-shaping operations.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Servo motor in step mode reaches position after LCNC

[Eric Keller]

On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 10:43 AM Leonardo Marsaglia
 wrote:
> My brother is changing some stepper motors to servos from a machine with
> LCNC 2.4.3 and a mesa 5i20. The servos are D2 model from Hiwin.
>
> The problem he's having is that, in rapid movements, after LCNC completes
> its motion the servo motor keeps running until it reaches the desired
> position.

I had this problem with clearpath motors.  It took a day to realize
what the problem was, since the machine used corexy and the software
(not lcnc) was limiting acceleration in cartesian coordinates. I'm
pretty sure the clearpath motors will trigger a separate following
error, but it wasn't hooked up and the software didn't know how to use
it anyway.  The solution is to make sure not to exceed the motor's
accel limits.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania


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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

Nor do I! That is why I sent a pile of cash to Tormach instead of trying to
roll my own. It just works and allows me to make chips without worrying
about editing files or applying updates that break things or... Others
obviously favour different choices!

-Original Message-
From: Stuart Stevenson  
Sent: January 26, 2023 11:38 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

 "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.

Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
progress.

thanks
Stuart


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:

> "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution 
> with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody 
> wants to do this thankless task."
>
> Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable 
> business by doing exactly that.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Eric Keller 
> Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:
>
> > To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a 
> > commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users 
> > are uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying 
> > configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the 
> > possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without 
> > magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.
>
> Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc 
> has is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because 
> they wanted to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are 
> plenty of people that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a 
> Rpi4.  But both the
> Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and 
> neither are really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on a Mesa 
> board on a PC with decent latency (another sticking point, 
> unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone mentioned 4 axis.  The problem 
> with that is that everyone has their own 4th axis.  This is also the 
> problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more than 90% of the 
> problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is they have 
> a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other 
> software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy 
> something standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any 
> time the subject comes up.
>
> The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something 
> about it, I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their 
> own distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me 
> that nobody wants to do this thankless task.
> Eric Keller
> Boalsburg, Pennsylvania
>
>
> ___
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>
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Stuart Stevenson]

 "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.

Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
progress.

thanks
Stuart


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:

> "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
> only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
> this thankless task."
>
> Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
> doing exactly that.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Eric Keller 
> Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:
>
> > To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a
> > commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users are
> > uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying
> > configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the
> > possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without
> > magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.
>
> Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc has
> is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because they
> wanted
> to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are plenty of people
> that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a Rpi4.  But both the
> Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and neither are
> really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on a Mesa board on a PC
> with
> decent latency (another sticking point, unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone
> mentioned 4 axis.  The problem with that is that everyone has their own 4th
> axis.  This is also the problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more
> than
> 90% of the problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is
> they
> have a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
> software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy something
> standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any time the subject
> comes up.
>
> The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something about it,
> I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their own
> distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that
> nobody wants to do this thankless task.
> Eric Keller
> Boalsburg, Pennsylvania
>
>
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


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this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or
reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private
correspondence.
Thank you for honoring my wish.

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

"Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

-Original Message-
From: Eric Keller  
Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:

> To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a 
> commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users are 
> uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying 
> configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the 
> possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without 
> magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.

Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc has
is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because they wanted
to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are plenty of people
that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a Rpi4.  But both the
Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and neither are
really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on a Mesa board on a PC with
decent latency (another sticking point, unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone
mentioned 4 axis.  The problem with that is that everyone has their own 4th
axis.  This is also the problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more than
90% of the problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is they
have a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy something
standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any time the subject
comes up.

The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something about it,
I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their own
distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that
nobody wants to do this thankless task.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania


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[Emc-users] CNC Shaper Project

[Matthew Herd]

Hi all,

I have been pondering a possible CNC shaper project for a while now.  I
have some chinese AC servos lying around and have pondered CNC on my little
Atlas 7B metal shaper.  I have a production application for this, so it's
not entirely a fanciful project.  The current solution involves CNC
shaping/broaching on a Haas mill using their built-in broaching canned
cycle (
https://www.haascnc.com/service/codes-settings.type=gcode.machine=mill.value=G156.html).
This works fine, but it's preferable to do this operation on a different
machine to reduce operator loading time.  Nonetheless, it may not be worth
the time to implement, but I'm just pondering at this stage.

The general concept is to put an encoder on the bull gear (which has fixed
timing with respect to the stroke of the ram), use a large servo as the
drive motor (although a VFD & 3 phase motor would also work, but this
allows easy positioning of the ram and I already have a servo with ample
power and torque).  Then an additional servo can be used for down feed and
cross feed (i.e. X and Y motion).  Stroke position and stroke length can be
adjusted manually as per usual shaper operation.  The servos can be
operated in step and direction mode or velocity/torque mode with analog
inputs.  The drives also provide encoder output which I would like to
provide to LinuxCNC.

I have two main questions.  1) if looking at Mesa hardware, what would be
the optimal cards for 3 AC servos with encoder feedback?  Some minimal I/O
is also required, but I don't expect this to be substantial.  I haven't
used Mesa hardware before but would like to give it a try.  2) Is it
possible to only advance (down-feed or cross-feed) the cut during a certain
portion of the rotation of the bull gear?  Shapers typically feed on the
return stroke and I would prefer to maintain this.

Thanks!
Matt

-- 
Matthew Herd
Email:  herd.m...@gmail.com
Cell:  610-608-8930

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Eric Keller]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:

> To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a commercially
> viable product. The vast majority of potential users are uncomfortable (or
> don't want to bother) with manually modifying configuration files. Of course
> the power of LinuxCNC is due to the possibility of configuring things for
> all sorts of hardware. Without magic the flexibility means that it will
> never be mainstream.

Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc
has is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because
they wanted to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are
plenty of people that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a
Rpi4.  But both the Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around,
I think, and neither are really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis
running on a Mesa board on a PC with decent latency (another sticking
point, unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone mentioned 4 axis.  The
problem with that is that everyone has their own 4th axis.  This is
also the problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more than 90% of
the problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is they
have a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy
something standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any
time the subject comes up.

The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something
about it, I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their
own distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me
that nobody wants to do this thankless task.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania


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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

Yes, my Tormach shipped with Mach3. The Mach3 configuration was "locked" so
you couldn't make any changes.

-Original Message-
From: Martin Dobbins  
Sent: January 26, 2023 9:29 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

I remember when Tormach started, they were supplying cnc machines loaded
with Mach 3, they decided to go a different route as their product range
increased.

To quote part of their description:

"If it's available, it's included. We eliminated the headaches of costly
upgrades or a al carte pricing that holds advanced features behind a
paywall."

The nice thing about this is it is open source, you can get hold of it for
no cost and, if you are a geek, you can take a look at how it was all put
together. Nice!  Modify it also if you want. Nice!

Try doing that with a Windows based commercial system.

Martin

From: ken.stra...@sympatico.ca 
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2023 7:20 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Pathpilot is a single bootable image for a variety of Tormach hardware -- at
least 6 traditional CNC mills, a CNC router and at least 3 CNC lathes (not
all current products). It also support 3 different MESA boards, two
different ATC, two different 4th axis, two different probes, touch and
non-touch screens, several different pendants, accessory boards to control
relays to control bar pullers and other devices, automatic coolant pointing,
etc, etc. At boot the Mesa cards are updated to the correct firmware and the
appropriate HAL files are magically selected based on a few user questions
regarding the machine that is being controlled.

To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a commercially
viable product. The vast majority of potential users are uncomfortable (or
don't want to bother) with manually modifying configuration files. Of course
the power of LinuxCNC is due to the possibility of configuring things for
all sorts of hardware. Without magic the flexibility means that it will
never be mainstream.

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer 
Sent: January 26, 2023 12:11 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Well in real life neither Linux, MacOS or Windows is really a product.  For
that matter the number of times my Android phone wants to update/upgrade the
OS or apps is breathtaking so Android on the phone is also not a product.
It's an OS and a program that interfaces to the product which is the
hardware.  None of them run without hardware.

And Tormach also isn't selling LinuxCNC as a product.  They are selling
hardware that uses LinuxCNC that they have modified and due to the rules are
more or less required to keep it open source.. sort of.

I'm guessing that when someone downloads the Tormach version of LCNC that it
comes with the .hal and .ini files.  And in those files should be the
information that describes the hardware from an connection perspective?

So it should theoretically be possible to use that information to instead
talk to different hardware.  (the product).   But that information must be
available so you know whether to use an NC or NO limit/home switch.  Unless
you want to start editing .hal and .ini files.

I ordered a second cheap BoB so I have two identical units to plug into my
spare Mesa 7i92 which is connected to the Pi4 running LinuxCNC.

Perhaps you or someone can create a version of LinuxCNC that uses the
Tormach user interface that runs on a Pi4.  I have no idea how to do that.
I've never wanted to dive that deep into LinuxCNC.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-25-23 2:11 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>
> The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a 
> development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop 
> a product.
>
> Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have 
> computer skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we 
> see on this email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most 
> machinists just want to make parts and not futz with the tools, 
> especially if the tools involve computers.
>
> We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older 
> men who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning 
> to turn handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't 
> understand
completely
> outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory 
> machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the 
> byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making 
> anything by hand.
>
> We are still i

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Martin Dobbins]

I remember when Tormach started, they were supplying cnc machines loaded with 
Mach 3, they decided to go a different route as their product range increased.

To quote part of their description:

"If it's available, it's included. We eliminated the headaches of costly 
upgrades or a al carte pricing that holds advanced features behind a paywall."

The nice thing about this is it is open source, you can get hold of it for no 
cost and, if you are a geek, you can take a look at how it was all put 
together. Nice!  Modify it also if you want. Nice!

Try doing that with a Windows based commercial system.

Martin

From: ken.stra...@sympatico.ca 
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2023 7:20 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Pathpilot is a single bootable image for a variety of Tormach hardware -- at
least 6 traditional CNC mills, a CNC router and at least 3 CNC lathes (not
all current products). It also support 3 different MESA boards, two
different ATC, two different 4th axis, two different probes, touch and
non-touch screens, several different pendants, accessory boards to control
relays to control bar pullers and other devices, automatic coolant pointing,
etc, etc. At boot the Mesa cards are updated to the correct firmware and the
appropriate HAL files are magically selected based on a few user questions
regarding the machine that is being controlled.

To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a commercially
viable product. The vast majority of potential users are uncomfortable (or
don't want to bother) with manually modifying configuration files. Of course
the power of LinuxCNC is due to the possibility of configuring things for
all sorts of hardware. Without magic the flexibility means that it will
never be mainstream.

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer 
Sent: January 26, 2023 12:11 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Well in real life neither Linux, MacOS or Windows is really a product.  For
that matter the number of times my Android phone wants to update/upgrade the
OS or apps is breathtaking so Android on the phone is also not a product.
It's an OS and a program that interfaces to the product which is the
hardware.  None of them run without hardware.

And Tormach also isn't selling LinuxCNC as a product.  They are selling
hardware that uses LinuxCNC that they have modified and due to the rules are
more or less required to keep it open source.. sort of.

I'm guessing that when someone downloads the Tormach version of LCNC that it
comes with the .hal and .ini files.  And in those files should be the
information that describes the hardware from an connection perspective?

So it should theoretically be possible to use that information to instead
talk to different hardware.  (the product).   But that information must be
available so you know whether to use an NC or NO limit/home switch.  Unless
you want to start editing .hal and .ini files.

I ordered a second cheap BoB so I have two identical units to plug into my
spare Mesa 7i92 which is connected to the Pi4 running LinuxCNC.

Perhaps you or someone can create a version of LinuxCNC that uses the
Tormach user interface that runs on a Pi4.  I have no idea how to do that.
I've never wanted to dive that deep into LinuxCNC.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-25-23 2:11 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>
> The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a
> development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop
> a product.
>
> Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have
> computer skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we
> see on this email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most
> machinists just want to make parts and not futz with the tools,
> especially if the tools involve computers.
>
> We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older
> men who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning
> to turn handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't understand
completely
> outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory
> machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the
> byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making
> anything by hand.
>
> We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old
> guys who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made
> anything by hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess
with tools.
>
> Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
>
> On Wed, Jan 25, 20

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

Pathpilot is a single bootable image for a variety of Tormach hardware -- at
least 6 traditional CNC mills, a CNC router and at least 3 CNC lathes (not
all current products). It also support 3 different MESA boards, two
different ATC, two different 4th axis, two different probes, touch and
non-touch screens, several different pendants, accessory boards to control
relays to control bar pullers and other devices, automatic coolant pointing,
etc, etc. At boot the Mesa cards are updated to the correct firmware and the
appropriate HAL files are magically selected based on a few user questions
regarding the machine that is being controlled. 

To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a commercially
viable product. The vast majority of potential users are uncomfortable (or
don't want to bother) with manually modifying configuration files. Of course
the power of LinuxCNC is due to the possibility of configuring things for
all sorts of hardware. Without magic the flexibility means that it will
never be mainstream.

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer  
Sent: January 26, 2023 12:11 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Well in real life neither Linux, MacOS or Windows is really a product.  For
that matter the number of times my Android phone wants to update/upgrade the
OS or apps is breathtaking so Android on the phone is also not a product.
It's an OS and a program that interfaces to the product which is the
hardware.  None of them run without hardware.  

And Tormach also isn't selling LinuxCNC as a product.  They are selling
hardware that uses LinuxCNC that they have modified and due to the rules are
more or less required to keep it open source.. sort of.

I'm guessing that when someone downloads the Tormach version of LCNC that it
comes with the .hal and .ini files.  And in those files should be the
information that describes the hardware from an connection perspective?

So it should theoretically be possible to use that information to instead
talk to different hardware.  (the product).   But that information must be
available so you know whether to use an NC or NO limit/home switch.  Unless
you want to start editing .hal and .ini files.

I ordered a second cheap BoB so I have two identical units to plug into my
spare Mesa 7i92 which is connected to the Pi4 running LinuxCNC.  

Perhaps you or someone can create a version of LinuxCNC that uses the
Tormach user interface that runs on a Pi4.  I have no idea how to do that.
I've never wanted to dive that deep into LinuxCNC.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-25-23 2:11 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a 
> development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop 
> a product.
> 
> Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have 
> computer skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we 
> see on this email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most 
> machinists just want to make parts and not futz with the tools, 
> especially if the tools involve computers.
> 
> We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older 
> men who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning 
> to turn handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't understand
completely
> outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory 
> machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the 
> byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making 
> anything by hand.
> 
> We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old 
> guys who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made 
> anything by hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess
with tools.
> 
> Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Todd,
> > First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has 
> > nothing to do with the subject line.
> >
> > And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or 
> > looked into LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your
statement:
> >
> > " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and 
> > hold the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning 
> > anything, charge accordingly."
> >
> > Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green noob 
> > and can't figure out LCNC or Linux"
> >
> > Personally I think the theme of the original post and conversation 
> > was how easy is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot 
> > on non Tormach Hardware.
> >
> > IM