[Emc-users] Latency problem
I bougt this. http://www.ebay.com/itm/200542103383?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 running the latest version of linuxcnc. Hypertreading off in bios, ISOLCPU is done. when runnnig latencytest and 3 x glxgears + some video i can run for 30 min and get: servo thread (1.0ms) max interval (ns) 1006129 max jitter 11104 Base thread (25.0ps) max interval (ns) 42342 max jitter 17463 i think i could do with this but if i run overnight the same way i get servo thread (1.0ms) max interval (ns) 1020138 max jitter 24978 Base thread (25.0ps) max interval (ns) 83039 max jitter 58160 does anyone have any idea of hvat this can be? is there a way to se any debugging information? And another question, is it possible to dedicate one cpu to run gui and other non realtime funktions? Regards Bjorn -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_mar ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Latency problem
Am 20.03.2013 um 08:48 schrieb Bj?rn: > I bougt this. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/200542103383?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 > running the latest version of linuxcnc. specifically which version? I have a D525MW and get much better results > Hypertreading off in bios, > ISOLCPU is done. > > when runnnig latencytest and 3 x glxgears + some video i can run for 30 > min and get: > servo thread (1.0ms) max interval (ns) 1006129 max jitter 11104 > Base thread (25.0ps) max interval (ns) 42342 max jitter 17463 > > i think i could do with this but if i run overnight the same way i get > servo thread (1.0ms) max interval (ns) 1020138 max jitter 24978 > Base thread (25.0ps) max interval (ns) 83039 max jitter 58160 > > does anyone have any idea of hvat this can be? is there a way to se any > debugging information? usually that points to CPU idle/powersave states; it has turned out that wakeup from idle/powersave states is rather nondeterministic and a likely cause of latency spikes to isolate whether this is the case, try to boot the kernel with the option 'idle=poll' if things improve, idle/powersave states are very likely the cause -m > And another question, is it possible to dedicate one cpu to run gui and > other non realtime funktions? > > Regards Bjorn > I am running 10.04 LTS and LinuxCNC 2.5.2 when you say, boot the kernel with the option 'idle=poll' is this done the same way as isolcpu? Regards Bjorn Kristiansen. -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_mar ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Latency problem
Am 20.03.2013 um 08:48 schrieb Bj?rn: > I bougt this. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/200542103383?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 > running the latest version of linuxcnc. specifically which version? I have a D525MW and get much better results > Hypertreading off in bios, > ISOLCPU is done. > > when runnnig latencytest and 3 x glxgears + some video i can run for 30 > min and get: > servo thread (1.0ms) max interval (ns) 1006129 max jitter 11104 > Base thread (25.0ps) max interval (ns) 42342 max jitter 17463 > > i think i could do with this but if i run overnight the same way i get > servo thread (1.0ms) max interval (ns) 1020138 max jitter 24978 > Base thread (25.0ps) max interval (ns) 83039 max jitter 58160 > > does anyone have any idea of hvat this can be? is there a way to se any > debugging information? usually that points to CPU idle/powersave states; it has turned out that wakeup from idle/powersave states is rather nondeterministic and a likely cause of latency spikes to isolate whether this is the case, try to boot the kernel with the option 'idle=poll' if things improve, idle/powersave states are very likely the cause -m > And another question, is it possible to dedicate one cpu to run gui and > other non realtime funktions? > > Regards Bjorn > I am running 10.04 LTS and LinuxCNC 2.5.2 when you say, boot the kernel with the option 'idle=poll' is this done the same way as isolcpu? Regards Bjorn Kristiansen. yes try both 'idle=poll' and 'nohlt' see section 4 of http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?XenomaiKernelPackages this applies to RTAI just alike - Michael now i have tested: boot with isolcpu(big improvement in general latency but still spikes) turn of smi, (improvement in general latency but still spikes) 'idle=poll' and 'nohlt'(little or no effect) acpi = off and api=off (little or no effect) For the moment i have been running the system for 1,5 hour and have - servothread interval 999655 and max jitter 4495 ns - base thread interval 32069 max jitter 7190. witch i am very happy with, but if i run for several hours i still get spikes up to 5 and above. i suspect Michael are right, the problem is related toidle/powersave states. I have no settings in bios to turn of ACPI my bios is: MWNT10N.86A.0083.2011.0524.1600 is this the same as others are running? and do you have option to turn off ACPI from bios? -- Regards: Bjørn Kristiansen -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_mar ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Latency problem
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 15:25:31 -0400 From: "Kent A. Reed" Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Latency problem To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" Message-ID: <5150a4ab.6050...@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 3/25/2013 9:56 AM, Bj?rn wrote: >> now i have tested: boot with isolcpu(big >> improvement in general latency but still spikes) >> turn of smi, (improvement in general latency but still spikes) >> 'idle=poll' and 'nohlt'(little or no effect) >> >> acpi = off and api=off (little or no effect) >> >> For the moment i have been running the system for 1,5 hour and have - >> servothread interval 999655 and max jitter 4495 ns - base thread interval >> 32069 max jitter 7190. >> >> witch i am very happy with, but if i run for several hours i still get >> spikes up to 5 and above. >> i suspect Michael are right, the problem is related toidle/powersave states. >> >> I have no settings in bios to turn of ACPI >> my bios is: MWNT10N.86A.0083.2011.0524.1600 >> is this the same as others are running? and do you have option to turn off >> ACPI from bios? > Bj?rn: > > I don't have an Intel D525MW in my stable of motherboards but I do have > an ASUS AT5NM10-I whose numbers I posted last year to the table of > latency-test results in the Wiki. Your "pre-spike" numbers are > reasonably consistent with the numbers I got. The "best" numbers I > posted were obtained with hyperthreading turned off in the BIOS and > isolcpus=1 set in the boot parameters. Nothing heroic. I did my tests > long before list discussions brought out the importance of other > parameter settings like idle=poll. In recent shortterm tests, I also > have not seen dramatic improvements manipulating these parameters. > > Testing this ASUS board, I haven't seen the kinds of spikes you are > experiencing. (Just for the record, I was testing LinuxCNC over 10.04LTS > with the RTAI kernel). > > I'm curious to know what all is attached to your motherboard, especially > anything attached via USB. I once had a motherboard that started > misbehaving when I switched from a PS/2 mouse to a USB mouse and a > number of us have seen the simple act of plugging in a USB thumbdrive > cause bursts in latency numbers. Is it possible you have a peripheral > interface/device that is waking up on the same time scale as the > occurrence of your spikes? > > My system guy never failed to ask if the computer were plugged to a live > outlet as his first step in diagnosing problems. Obviously your computer > is plugged in but how are the power supply and the AC mains? Adequate, > stable, clean? > > Regards, > Kent > > I bought the power supply together with the D525MW board. here are a link - http://www.ebay.com/itm/160721043666?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 it says 60w but i don't know the quality of it. I will test another one when i get it in a week. I to have seen the problem regarding USB and latency on my mill and plasma table. I told the guys in the shop to transfer files from USB thumbdrive to desktop and remove USB thumbdrive before running Linuxcnc at first i started out with a wireless mouse and keypad with a USB dongle, but replaced it with USB when the spikes appeared. i have now tested using a ps2 mouse, i do not have a ps2 keyboard so that's still USB. but i have tried to disconnect and connect it while the latency-test where running and no spikes i left it out and no other USB devices connected, let the test run for 5-6 hours but still spikes at 5 - 6. just a tought, what about SATA and SSD disk could that have some influence on the latency? But anyway i still think i have some powersave funktion running. I noticed that the screen was black when i come back to the office, witch i havent seen before. I think i have to go back to check my bios version to see if there are an uppgrade or alternative. Regards Bjørn -- Own the Future-Intel® Level Up Game Demo Contest 2013 Rise to greatness in Intel's independent game demo contest. Compete for recognition, cash, and the chance to get your game on Steam. $5K grand prize plus 10 genre and skill prizes. Submit your demo by 6/6/13. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel_levelupd2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Latency problem
snip /"I keep mulling over this "5-6 hours" observation. I know we recommend running the latency test for a long time but I don't think we understand why these spiking events show up rarely. It's all well and good to blame power saving features in modern CPUs but they are functioning over much smaller time scales. If they are involved in 5-6 hour spikes, then it would seem we're experiencing some sort of "perfect storm" phenomenon."/ You are probably right, this happens after to long a time, and not the same each time either. But i am still suspicious to the blank screen. All screensaver functions are already set to "never" thats a bit of a mystery. Now i have updated BIOS but no new options to turn of ACPI and still the same latency. so thats a dead end. The Picopsu is rated 80w as you say, but the "12v brick" that came with it is only 60w. and i see in the manual that G0 = Full power > 30 W but G1 = 5 W < power < 52.5 W then with the SSD it could be that it's to smal and running hot. I will test with a "real powersupply" after the hollydays. To be continued.. Tusen takk for hjelpen. Regards Bjørn. -- Med vennlig hilsen Bjørn Kristiansen. www.spesmek.no -- Own the Future-Intel(R) Level Up Game Demo Contest 2013 Rise to greatness in Intel's independent game demo contest. Compete for recognition, cash, and the chance to get your game on Steam. $5K grand prize plus 10 genre and skill prizes. Submit your demo by 6/6/13. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/12124-176961-30367-2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] [Fwd: [Fwd: Shared home and limit]]
--- Begin Message --- --- Begin Message --- Hello.. shared home and limit is no problem in EMC2, that's the config i use the most on my machines. here is the pinout for an triac denford that i have retrofitted. This config is using one pin for each axis with two NC switches acting as limit, when homing you set "home ignore limits in the .ini file and if you want to home in negative direction you set - in front of the homing speed in the .ini file. I hope this will be helpfull. Regards Bjørn.. -- # standard pinout config file for 3-axis steppers # using a parport for I/O # # first load the parport driver loadrt hal_parport cfg="0x0378" # # next connect the parport functions to threads # read inputs first addf parport.0.read base-thread 1 # write outputs last addf parport.0.write base-thread -1 # # finally connect physical pins to the signals linksp Xstep => parport.0.pin-06-out linksp Xdir => parport.0.pin-08-out setp parport.0.pin-08-out-invert 1 linksp Ystep => parport.0.pin-04-out linksp Ydir => parport.0.pin-07-out setp parport.0.pin-07-out-invert 1 linksp Zstep => parport.0.pin-05-out linksp Zdir => parport.0.pin-09-out # create a signal for the estop loopback linkpp iocontrol.0.user-enable-out iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in # create signals for tool loading loopback linkpp iocontrol.0.tool-prepare iocontrol.0.tool-prepared linkpp iocontrol.0.tool-change iocontrol.0.tool-changed # create a signal for "spindle on" newsig spindle-on bit # connect the controller to it linkps motion.spindle-on => spindle-on # connect it to a physical pin linksp spindle-on => parport.0.pin-03-out ### ### You might use something like this to enable chopper drives when machine ON ### the Xen signal is defined in core_stepper.hal ### linksp Xen => parport.0.pin-02-out ### ### If you want active low for this pin, invert it like this: ### # setp parport.0.pin-01-out-invert 1 ### ### A sample home switch on the X axis (axis 0). make a signal, ### link the incoming parport pin to the signal, then link the signal ### to EMC's axis 0 home switch input pin ### newsig Xhome bit linkps parport.0.pin-10-in => Xhome linksp Xhome => axis.0.home-sw-in linksp Xhome => axis.0.neg-lim-sw-in linksp Xhome => axis.0.pos-lim-sw-in newsig Yhome bit linkps parport.0.pin-12-in => Yhome linksp Yhome => axis.1.home-sw-in linksp Yhome => axis.1.neg-lim-sw-in linksp Yhome => axis.1.pos-lim-sw-in newsig Zhome bit linkps parport.0.pin-13-in => Zhome linksp Zhome => axis.2.home-sw-in linksp Zhome => axis.2.neg-lim-sw-in linksp Zhome => axis.2.pos-lim-sw-in ### ### Shared home switches all on one parallel port pin? ### that's ok, hook the same signal to all the axes, but be sure to ### set HOME_IS_SHARED and HOME_SEQUENCE in the ini file. See the ### user manual! ### # newsig homeswitches bit # linkps parport.0.pin-10-in => homeswitches # linksp homeswitches => axis.0.home-sw-in # linksp homeswitches => axis.1.home-sw-in # linksp homeswitches => axis.2.home-sw-in ### ### Sample separate limit switches on the X axis (axis 0) ### ## newsig X-neg-limit bit ## linkps parport.0.pin-10-in => X-neg-limit ## linksp X-neg-limit => axis.0.neg-lim-sw-in ## newsig X-pos-limit bit ## linkps parport.0.pin-10-in => X-pos-limit ## linksp X-pos-limit => axis.0.pos-lim-sw-in ### ### Just like the shared home switches example, you can wire together ### limit switches. Beware if you hit one, EMC will stop but can't tell ### you which switch/axis has faulted. Use caution when recovering from this. ### # newsig Xlimits bit # linkps parport.0.pin-10-in => Xlimits # linksp Xlimits => axis.0.neg-lim-sw-in # linksp Xlimits => axis.0.pos-lim-sw-in # newsig ylimits bit # linkps parport.0.pin-12-in => Xlimits # linksp ylimits => axis.0.neg-lim-sw-in # linksp ylimits => axis.0.pos-lim-sw-in # newsig zlimits bit # linkps parport.0.pin-13-in => Xlimits # linksp zlimits => axis.0.neg-lim-sw-in # linksp zlimits => axis.0.pos-lim-sw-in ### ### you can also use the "net" syntax to accomplish the "newsig" and "link" ### operations all at once. This command does the same thing as the above ### block. ### # net Xlimits parport.0.pin-10-in => axis.0.neg-lim-sw-in axis.0.pos-lim-sw-in # net Ylimits parport.0.pin-12-in => axis.1.neg-lim-sw-in axis.1.pos-lim-sw-in # net Zlimits parport.0.pin-13-in => axis.2.neg-lim-sw-in axis.2.pos-lim-sw-in --- End Message --- --- End Message --- - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Homing by code
Hello folks.. in other machine controllers i have used the G28 made the machine go home to the homeswitches in EMC it only goes to 0.0.0 Is there any way too program a real home that works just like hitting ctrl home? regards Bjørn.. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Emco 140 lathe retrofit
Hello. I have a Emcoturn 140 lathe. i am going to use linuxcnc for retrofitting, and i will use the 5 ph stepper drives. but does anyone know anything about step timing for these drives? Best regards-- Med vennlig hilsen Bjørn Kristiansen www.spesmek.no tel: +47 971 51 959 -- Meet PCI DSS 3.0 Compliance Requirements with EventLog Analyzer Achieve PCI DSS 3.0 Compliant Status with Out-of-the-box PCI DSS Reports Are you Audit-Ready for PCI DSS 3.0 Compliance? Download White paper Comply to PCI DSS 3.0 Requirement 10 and 11.5 with EventLog Analyzer http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=154622311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Teach-in.
where did you find the teach-in function? i have a kind of robot where that would have been wery helpfull to program the moves, i was thinking aboat how i could make that kind of programming possible, and was not aware that someone already has been working with someting like that. Bjørn. :) ti., 29.07.2008 kl. 18.02 -0400, skrev Organic Engines: > Hi, > > Has anyone used teach-in, the jog to gcode function that comes with EMC? > > I can't find a man page or any info on it. > > Take Care, > Dan > > > - > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge > Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Repost: Teach with joystick. (Welding)
Hi. i have been playing with the tougth for a while, can you use the probe function. in my case move to a position press a button conected to probe in to record the coordinates and then go on to the next poss.. or if you ned a track just get a switching signal to the probe pin, and then if you adjust the speed of the switcing you would get as many coordinates as you need to get a smooth mowement to a robot. could i be on to somehing?? Bjørn. ti., 12.08.2008 kl. 12.29 -0400, skrev Organic Engines: > Hi Craig, > > > 1. Software to Generate basic G-code from a sequence of positions > > should not be a very difficult problem. > > I was thinking there would need to be a time component though. A click > track. > > > 2. It would seem to me that welding a good bead (not spot welding) > > would require either very consistent materials or some feedback on > > puddle properties. Puddle properties could be measured from a visual > > and/or IR image. Measuring welding voltage/current might also be useful. > > (It has been some years since I considered this problem, so good > > technical solutions may since have been found.) > > Craig > > Yeah, consistent materials and a solid jig is what I am hoping will do > the trick. Weld seam tracking and all that jazzy stuff is probably > overkill, but can be added if necessary. > > I think if EMC can record my welding with the joysticks accurately > enough, dwell this long at this amperage, feed this much wire, etc. all > will be well. > > Dan. > > > > - > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge > Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Repost: Teach with joystick. (Welding)
Yes i agree, that would have been ewen better as you tend to go slow in compex mowements, but then again the track would be better when the mowements are compex and more coarce if you are going fast straight foreward, a solution for the standstills is too just stop the clock if there are no mowement. i think i hawe too play a litle with this too se how it works.. Bjørn.. on., 13.08.2008 kl. 09.36 +0200, skrev Jonathan / Hydra: > A more elegant solution based on the same principle if you need a > continuous track would be to generate a probe hit signal when the the > current position has moved more than XX units from the previous > position. That way you don't generate uneeded points when standing > still/moving slowly and they won't be too coarse when moving quickly. > Something like that should be implementable in HAL, right? (Some > variables for the last recorded position, compared with the current > position and some logic elements). > > Jonathan > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:46 AM, Bjørn Kristiansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi. > > i have been playing with the tougth for a while, can you use the probe > > function. in my case move to a position press a button conected to probe > > in to record the coordinates and then go on to the next poss.. or if you > > ned a track just get a switching signal to the probe pin, and then if > > you adjust the speed of the switcing you would get as many coordinates > > as you need to get a smooth mowement to a robot. could i be on to > > somehing?? > > > > Bjørn. > > > > ti., 12.08.2008 kl. 12.29 -0400, skrev Organic Engines: > >> Hi Craig, > >> > >> > 1. Software to Generate basic G-code from a sequence of positions > >> > should not be a very difficult problem. > >> > >> I was thinking there would need to be a time component though. A click > >> track. > >> > >> > 2. It would seem to me that welding a good bead (not spot welding) > >> > would require either very consistent materials or some feedback on > >> > puddle properties. Puddle properties could be measured from a visual > >> > and/or IR image. Measuring welding voltage/current might also be useful. > >> > (It has been some years since I considered this problem, so good > >> > technical solutions may since have been found.) > >> > Craig > >> > >> Yeah, consistent materials and a solid jig is what I am hoping will do > >> the trick. Weld seam tracking and all that jazzy stuff is probably > >> overkill, but can be added if necessary. > >> > >> I think if EMC can record my welding with the joysticks accurately > >> enough, dwell this long at this amperage, feed this much wire, etc. all > >> will be well. > >> > >> Dan. > >> > >> > >> > >> - > >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > >> challenge > >> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great > >> prizes > >> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world > >> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > >> ___ > >> Emc-users mailing list > >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > > > > > - > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge > > Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great > > prizes > > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world > > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > > ___ > > Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > > > - > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge > Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
