Re: [Emc-users] CANopen configuration files, CiA 309-3 --> battery charing like home brewn mash, nothing about CiA 309-3?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 19 March 2019 15:32:40 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Mar 2019 19:03:07 -0400
>
> Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > On Sunday 17 March 2019 17:56:02 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > So once every 1/2 second a message starting with 0x40A shows up
> > > > on the bus and everyone sees it.  The Charger and in this case
> > > > also a small display are the only ones interested in it.   The
> > > > charger uses the information to set charge on/off, voltage and
> > > > current.  The display grabs the information and shows what the
> > > > current charge voltage and max current are set to.
> > > >
> > > > The charger also reports in a different message what it measures
> > > > for battery voltage and what the current charge current is and
> > > > it reports if it's enabled.  That's all identified by the Object
> > > > Dictionary entries at 18xx and 1Axx.
> > >
> > > I am familiar with CANopen communication and also to some degree
> > > battery charging. The old style open Lead-acid batteries should
> > > bubble like home brewn mash before they are done.
> >
> > Fraid not Nik. And this is TL;DR, but read it anyway. LA batteries
> > might bubble gently when being heavily charged, but every bubble is
> > electrolite lost forever and its hard on the plates.
>
> You have to refill.
>
Only if you brew them with an overcharge. I try not to if I have the 
means to control it accurately.

> > Someone in the distant past at kxne-tv had put a 10 amp charger on a
> > pair of 220 AH truck batteries with a 47 ohm 5 watt resistor in
> > series, so they were getting about 600 ma as a trickle charge into
> > the two of them in parallel. So they were boiling at a good rate.
> > ...
>
> You have to stop then they bubble like home brewn mash, at least after
> a while. They should not bubble during trickle charge.

And for those huge new batteries, a 10 ma charge was enough to make them 
bubble, albeit slowly. The alternator regulator was not adjustable and 
it took nominally 30 minutes for the last bubble to come up as it 
overcharged them pretty hard while it was getting its weekly exercise. 
15.1 volts is way too much in a 65F garage where this was located. If it 
hadn't been a potted unit, I might have tried to turn it down.  In the 
next 7 years I dribbled most of a gallon of distilled in them for 
makeup. I shouldn't have had to add any. I cleaned & greased the posts 
about annually which is when I topped them off. Thats one thing that 
will wreck a voltage switching starter circuit as it will let the 
battery with a higher connection resistance go down and slowly sulfate 
just one battery. But that pair started it so fast it was always 
amazing, you hear the Bendix kick in, the first cylinder to hit tdc 
kicks it back out, its running.  The pot field gets tickled from the 
batteries as it goes past 1500 revs, that bangs the transfer switch and 
you have lights in under 2 seconds. We had a tank heater on the block, 
so it wasn't really cold when it picked up about 160 kw of load so the 
real thing never made it past about 1780 revs, rated at 150kw.  And that 
was with both klystrons running at about 40% OF normal beam current by 
an automatic signal to the transmitter that it was on standby power. 
Klystron based uhf transmitters are hungry beasts. At full power, the 
line draw was about 250 KWH.

Bandwidth goes in the toilet so color is washed out when the beam 
diameter is reduced, but you are at least on the air. We (KXNE-TV-19) 
were, by a wide margin, Wayne County Public powers biggest customer.

> > ... Since it was
> > started weekly for a 15 minute dry run, it never needed that charger
> > in the first place.
> >
> > > CiA 309-3 is to access a CANopen device over TCP/IP and as I added
> > > it could be used to access dictionary of devices connected to
> > > Linuxcnc.
>
> Nobody have anything to mention about CiA 309-3?

I don't personally know anything about it, sorry Nik. But you mentioned 
batteries...
>
> Nicklas Karlsson
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] CANopen configuration files, CiA 309-3 --> battery charing like home brewn mash, nothing about CiA 309-3?

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Sun, 17 Mar 2019 19:03:07 -0400
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Sunday 17 March 2019 17:56:02 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> 
> > > ...
> > > So once every 1/2 second a message starting with 0x40A shows up on
> > > the bus and everyone sees it.  The Charger and in this case also a
> > > small display are the only ones interested in it.   The charger uses
> > > the information to set charge on/off, voltage and current.  The
> > > display grabs the information and shows what the current charge
> > > voltage and max current are set to.
> > >
> > > The charger also reports in a different message what it measures for
> > > battery voltage and what the current charge current is and it
> > > reports if it's enabled.  That's all identified by the Object
> > > Dictionary entries at 18xx and 1Axx.
> >
> > I am familiar with CANopen communication and also to some degree
> > battery charging. The old style open Lead-acid batteries should bubble
> > like home brewn mash before they are done.
> >
> Fraid not Nik. And this is TL;DR, but read it anyway. LA batteries might 
> bubble gently when being heavily charged, but every bubble is 
> electrolite lost forever and its hard on the plates.

You have to refill.

> Someone in the distant past at kxne-tv had put a 10 amp charger on a pair 
> of 220 AH truck batteries with a 47 ohm 5 watt resistor in series, so 
> they were getting about 600 ma as a trickle charge into the two of them 
> in parallel. So they were boiling at a good rate. ...

You have to stop then they bubble like home brewn mash, at least after a while. 
They should not bubble during trickle charge.

> ... Since it was 
> started weekly for a 15 minute dry run, it never needed that charger in 
> the first place.


> > CiA 309-3 is to access a CANopen device over TCP/IP and as I added it
> > could be used to access dictionary of devices connected to Linuxcnc.

Nobody have anything to mention about CiA 309-3?


Nicklas Karlsson


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Re: [Emc-users] CANopen configuration files, CiA 309-3 --> battery charging

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> The worst thing thats happened to te life of a LA battery in the last 50 
> years has been the incorporation of the regulator into the alternator, 
> adding the resistance of the cable which softens the curve a lot, and 
> the relatively quick heating of the alternator.  Way faster than the 
> battery. Late vehicles are doing good to get 4 years out of a battery.  
> The wife's 2007 toy RAV4 is on its 4th battery now, and I don't believe 
> the acid has ever gotten up to 1.26 SG even after a 600 mile trip to FL, 
> or a 435 mile trip to NY from here. She has kin in both places she'll 
> never see again unless they come to us.

It might be good to bubble batteries a little bit to get acid circulating but 
driving the car probably have the same effect. I vaguely remember someone 
mentioned something about putting asphalt on gravel, flat enough surface and 
there are no circulating then driving.


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Re: [Emc-users] CANopen configuration files, CiA 309-3

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> Nicklas, as soon as a lead-acid battery bubbles, it's losing water and 
> the plates cover with lead sulphate, increasing capacity and intrinsic 
> resistance. No, no.

You have to stop then then the lead-acid battery bubble like home brewn mesh.

> I got myself a handful of cheap 74N137 stabilizers. These are made 
> espacially by Motorola to maintain a constant charging voltage of 13.7 V 
> which is the exact limit before the gassing occurs. The current they 
> deliver is limited to 1 A. I placed them inside the housing of several 
> 12 V DC wall warts together with a small electrolytic capacitor. The 
> transformers of these little power supplies give more than 15 V AC so 
> there is enough headroom for regulating.
> Using those chargers the batteries of my vehicles are kept in perfect 
> shape all winter and in summer, too, when the tractor is not in use. I 
> have been using them for years now.
> Peter

It also works, there is a small change with temperature but can't remember 
exactly.


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Re: [Emc-users] CANopen configuration files, CiA 309-3

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 18 March 2019 05:34:31 Peter Blodow wrote:

> Sorry, error: of course, gassing  d e creases capacity and increases
> resistance of lead cells!
> Peter
>
> Am 18.03.2019 um 10:19 schrieb Peter Blodow:
> > Nicklas, as soon as a lead-acid battery bubbles, it's losing water
> > and the plates cover with lead sulphate, increasing capacity and
> > intrinsic resistance. No, no.
> > I got myself a handful of cheap 74N137 stabilizers. These are made
> > espacially by Motorola to maintain a constant charging voltage of
> > 13.7 V which is the exact limit before the gassing occurs.

This should be adjusted for battery ambient temp. At -25F, and after 
starting big American V8's, they can go as high as 17 volts. That 13.7 
is at the usual test temp of 27C. Run it on up to nearly 200F on a hot 
day its just covered 20 miles in traffic and it drops another 3/4ths of 
a volt. That special regulator I built had 5 si diodes in series as part 
of its reference voltage to furnish the needed negative comp to the temp 
curve. Some of the 1950's mechanicals had that much in their springs, 
but I've not noted a modern factory regulator having that much 
compensation, probably because it made the batteries last too long.

The worst thing thats happened to te life of a LA battery in the last 50 
years has been the incorporation of the regulator into the alternator, 
adding the resistance of the cable which softens the curve a lot, and 
the relatively quick heating of the alternator.  Way faster than the 
battery. Late vehicles are doing good to get 4 years out of a battery.  
The wife's 2007 toy RAV4 is on its 4th battery now, and I don't believe 
the acid has ever gotten up to 1.26 SG even after a 600 mile trip to FL, 
or a 435 mile trip to NY from here. She has kin in both places she'll 
never see again unless they come to us.

> > The 
> > current they deliver is limited to 1 A. I placed them inside the
> > housing of several 12 V DC wall warts together with a small
> > electrolytic capacitor. The transformers of these little power
> > supplies give more than 15 V AC so there is enough headroom for
> > regulating.
> > Using those chargers the batteries of my vehicles are kept in
> > perfect shape all winter and in summer, too, when the tractor is not
> > in use. I have been using them for years now.
> > Peter

They sell them as maintenance chargers, typically 2 amp. I have several 
plugged in right now, including the one on the boat battery.  And since 
the toy isn't moving very often, I have one on it just to keep the 
computer alive. Without it, the battery is dead and terminally sulfated 
in 2 weeks.  Works great on the rider too.
> >
> > Am 17.03.2019 um 22:56 schrieb Nicklas Karlsson:
> > /snip/
> >
> >> I am familiar with CANopen communication and also to some degree
> >> battery charging. The old style open Lead-acid batteries should
> >> bubble like home brewn mash before they are done.
> >> Nicklas Karlsson
> >
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] CANopen configuration files, CiA 309-3

[Peter Blodow]

Sorry, error: of course, gassing  d e creases capacity and increases 
resistance of lead cells!

Peter

Am 18.03.2019 um 10:19 schrieb Peter Blodow:
Nicklas, as soon as a lead-acid battery bubbles, it's losing water and 
the plates cover with lead sulphate, increasing capacity and intrinsic 
resistance. No, no.
I got myself a handful of cheap 74N137 stabilizers. These are made 
espacially by Motorola to maintain a constant charging voltage of 13.7 
V which is the exact limit before the gassing occurs. The current they 
deliver is limited to 1 A. I placed them inside the housing of several 
12 V DC wall warts together with a small electrolytic capacitor. The 
transformers of these little power supplies give more than 15 V AC so 
there is enough headroom for regulating.
Using those chargers the batteries of my vehicles are kept in perfect 
shape all winter and in summer, too, when the tractor is not in use. I 
have been using them for years now.

Peter


Am 17.03.2019 um 22:56 schrieb Nicklas Karlsson:
/snip/
I am familiar with CANopen communication and also to some degree 
battery charging. The old style open Lead-acid batteries should 
bubble like home brewn mash before they are done.

Nicklas Karlsson




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Re: [Emc-users] CANopen configuration files, CiA 309-3

[Peter Blodow]

Nicklas, as soon as a lead-acid battery bubbles, it's losing water and 
the plates cover with lead sulphate, increasing capacity and intrinsic 
resistance. No, no.
I got myself a handful of cheap 74N137 stabilizers. These are made 
espacially by Motorola to maintain a constant charging voltage of 13.7 V 
which is the exact limit before the gassing occurs. The current they 
deliver is limited to 1 A. I placed them inside the housing of several 
12 V DC wall warts together with a small electrolytic capacitor. The 
transformers of these little power supplies give more than 15 V AC so 
there is enough headroom for regulating.
Using those chargers the batteries of my vehicles are kept in perfect 
shape all winter and in summer, too, when the tractor is not in use. I 
have been using them for years now.

Peter


Am 17.03.2019 um 22:56 schrieb Nicklas Karlsson:
/snip/
I am familiar with CANopen communication and also to some degree 
battery charging. The old style open Lead-acid batteries should bubble 
like home brewn mash before they are done.

Nicklas Karlsson




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Re: [Emc-users] CANopen configuration files, CiA 309-3

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 17 March 2019 17:56:02 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

> > ...
> > So once every 1/2 second a message starting with 0x40A shows up on
> > the bus and everyone sees it.  The Charger and in this case also a
> > small display are the only ones interested in it.   The charger uses
> > the information to set charge on/off, voltage and current.  The
> > display grabs the information and shows what the current charge
> > voltage and max current are set to.
> >
> > The charger also reports in a different message what it measures for
> > battery voltage and what the current charge current is and it
> > reports if it's enabled.  That's all identified by the Object
> > Dictionary entries at 18xx and 1Axx.
>
> I am familiar with CANopen communication and also to some degree
> battery charging. The old style open Lead-acid batteries should bubble
> like home brewn mash before they are done.
>
Fraid not Nik. And this is TL;DR, but read it anyway. LA batteries might 
bubble gently when being heavily charged, but every bubble is 
electrolite lost forever and its hard on the plates.

Someone in the distant past at kxne-tv had put a 10 amp charger on a pair 
of 220 AH truck batteries with a 47 ohm 5 watt resistor in series, so 
they were getting about 600 ma as a trickle charge into the two of them 
in parallel. So they were boiling at a good rate.  But they weren't 
turning a comealong 335 with a 150 kw pot on it, over at all well and in 
just another couple months refused to turn it over at all. They were 
setup like the typical truck, with relays to make the 2 in series for 24 
volts for starting.  I called the head shed in star city and got a PO 
number to go get 2 more of them.

Bought them dry with enough acid to fill them. Brought them in, filled 
them and hooked up the cables to the comealong. No charger. Hit the 
starter button and they did everything but turn that 335 Cummings wrong 
side out, and in <2 seconds it hit the 1800 rpm governor and sat there 
very quietly without a load.

The dates on the batteries I took out indicated they were new about a 
year before I got the door keys. That battery charger burned them up, so 
I reduced its current with a few more ohms of R. By the time those 
batteries quit brewing about 2 weeks later, the resistor was up to 6800 
ohms. I stayed there from late 69 to the middle of '77 when I got an 
offer of the chiefs chair at a starving tv station in New Mexico.  Those 
two now 7 year old batteries were still turning that comealong wrong 
side out. There was about a 5 second after the power failure delay in 
the standby controller, but the lights were back on in nominally 6.5 
seconds. You heard the starter hit the flywheel, the first cylinder past 
tdc fired and it was up to 1800 about 1 second later.  Since it was 
started weekly for a 15 minute dry run, it never needed that charger in 
the first place.

One thing I've learned about LA batteries is that no two are alike. I had 
one 120 amp battery and matching big alternator in an old pontiac, got 
it off a wrecked ambulance, but didn't get the voltage regulator, so I 
designed a switch mode version and put a bunch of cold temps boost in 
it, around 16.5 volts until the engine compartment got up to operating 
temps if it was 30 below out. At normal summer temps, about 12.85 volts. 
Had that station wagon setup that way for about 7 years and well over 
150k miles on that same battery, and it was still spinning that 389 a 
good 1000 rpm on the tach until the wife decided to admin the cou-de-tau 
as it had worn the pushrods out, putting the ends of them thru the 
sockets on the rockers & the con rods were complaining too. Said she 
wanted to see if the pan was big enough.  It wasn't.

But that battery was still there, and I had not added any water to it in 
7 years. Moral: Don't knock an LA battery if you aren't willing to learn 
what each one wants for care and feeding.
>
> CiA 309-3 is to access a CANopen device over TCP/IP and as I added it
> could be used to access dictionary of devices connected to Linuxcnc.
>
>
> Nicklas Karlsson
>
>
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] CANopen configuration files, CiA 309-3

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> ...
> So once every 1/2 second a message starting with 0x40A shows up on the bus 
> and everyone sees it.  The Charger and in this case also a small display are 
> the only ones interested in it.   The charger uses the information to set 
> charge on/off, voltage and current.  The display grabs the information and 
> shows what the current charge voltage and max current are set to.
> 
> The charger also reports in a different message what it measures for battery 
> voltage and what the current charge current is and it reports if it's 
> enabled.  That's all identified by the Object Dictionary entries at 18xx and 
> 1Axx.

I am familiar with CANopen communication and also to some degree battery 
charging. The old style open Lead-acid batteries should bubble like home brewn 
mash before they are done.


CiA 309-3 is to access a CANopen device over TCP/IP and as I added it could be 
used to access dictionary of devices connected to Linuxcnc.


Nicklas Karlsson


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Re: [Emc-users] CANopen configuration files, CiA 309-3

[John Dammeyer]

I think you are mixing LinuxCNC HAL nomenclature with CANopen nomenclature.  
That could ultimately be very confusing I think.

> 0x1600 - 0x17FF are RPDO pins and end up as input pins.
> 0x1400 - 0x15FF are communication parameters and these may require som
> more thinking.
> 
This example that I posted is for a battery charger.  The 16 bit value at 
location 6071:00  on Charger with the address 0x0A refers to the charger 
maximum allowed current out to the battery.  There is no physical pin.  The 
non-linux world doesn’t refer to this as a pin.
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:56:08,r,0A,1602:01,60710010,( 1618018320) The first two 
> bytes go to 0x6071:00
This next parameter could easily be 60011 since it's a binary ON/OFF 
control for the charger.  But if it was only 1 bit wide then the next parameter 
would start at bit 17 and go on for 32 bits.  This could be a pin if there was 
an enable/disable line on the charger connector.
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:56:11,r,0A,1602:02,60010008,( 1610678280) The next byte 
> goes to 0x6001:00
It's easier to waste space and then be able to read the last 4 bytes on a byte 
boundary rather than a bit boundary which is why the previous one was 8 bits 
wide rather than 1.  
The last value is scaled charger output voltage.  Although my display shows it 
as Big Endian it's actually transmitted in the CAN frame as Little Endian.
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:56:15,r,0A,1602:03,22720020,( 577896480)  The last 4 
> bytes go to 0x2272:00

So once every 1/2 second a message starting with 0x40A shows up on the bus and 
everyone sees it.  The Charger and in this case also a small display are the 
only ones interested in it.   The charger uses the information to set charge 
on/off, voltage and current.  The display grabs the information and shows what 
the current charge voltage and max current are set to.

The charger also reports in a different message what it measures for battery 
voltage and what the current charge current is and it reports if it's enabled.  
That's all identified by the Object Dictionary entries at 18xx and 1Axx.

John


> Read out these mapping and adding pins should be rather simple but
> naming is a little bit more complicated. Without an *.eds or *.dcf file for
> CAN networks or an esi? *.xml file for Ethercat pins adding pins which end
> with the (index, subindex) numbers are probably a good choice.
> 
> I suspect there will be cases then manually accessing the dictionary of
> devices is useful and discovered I already added a probably incomplete
> implementation of CiA 309-3 ASCII server in the linuxcnc driver. This may be
> used to read what is needed from dictionary and for configuration using the
> manual and/or a *.eds/*.dcf or esi *.xml file if available.
> 
> 
> I did not find binary protocol. Do anybody know about a configuration tool
> which use or may use an CiA 309-3 gateway for communication? Or parse
> dictionary files?
> 
> 
> Nicklas Karlsson
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] CANopen configuration files, CiA 309-3

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> > > Not all devices allow changing the PDO Mapping entries. ...
Then adding pin it does not matter how mapping was created though it is of 
course good with configuration options to configure mapping if needed, at least 
some PLCs do it like this.

> For example let's take a look at an object dictionary for a RPDO:  Here I 
> read each of the RPDO3 OD locations of Node 0x1A.
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:55:34,r,0A,1402:00,05,(5) We have 
> 5 entries
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:55:36,r,0A,1402:01,041A,( 1050)   It 
> responds to 0x41A
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:55:39,r,0A,1402:02,FF,(255)   
> Processed immediately
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:55:41,r,0A,1402:03,,(0)   No 
> inhibit time
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:55:44,r,0A,1402:04,06090011,(101253137)   Invalid read 
> error
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:55:46,r,0A,1402:05,,(0)   Event 
> timer is not used
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:55:57,r,0A,1602:00,03,(3) The 
> RPDO will have three values
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:56:08,r,0A,1602:01,60710010,( 1618018320) The first two 
> bytes go to 0x6071:00
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:56:11,r,0A,1602:02,60010008,( 1610678280) The next byte 
> goes to 0x6001:00
> ###6###,19/03/10,10:56:15,r,0A,1602:03,22720020,( 577896480)  The last 4 
> bytes go to 0x2272:00

0x1600 - 0x17FF are RPDO pins and end up as input pins.
0x1400 - 0x15FF are communication parameters and these may require som more 
thinking.

Read out these mapping and adding pins should be rather simple but naming is a 
little bit more complicated. Without an *.eds or *.dcf file for CAN networks or 
an esi? *.xml file for Ethercat pins adding pins which end with the (index, 
subindex) numbers are probably a good choice.

I suspect there will be cases then manually accessing the dictionary of devices 
is useful and discovered I already added a probably incomplete implementation 
of CiA 309-3 ASCII server in the linuxcnc driver. This may be used to read what 
is needed from dictionary and for configuration using the manual and/or a 
*.eds/*.dcf or esi *.xml file if available.


I did not find binary protocol. Do anybody know about a configuration tool 
which use or may use an CiA 309-3 gateway for communication? Or parse 
dictionary files?


Nicklas Karlsson


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