Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 19 November 2021 09:33:20 Alan Condit wrote:

> Gene,
>
> Sorry, this message got sent in error. I was working on my wife’s iPad
> and some how a draft of an old message got sent rather than deleted.
>
> Alan
NP Alan, but did you get it fixed?

> From: Gene Heskett 
>
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Cc:
> > Bcc:
> > Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 18:40:59 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76
> >
> > On Thursday 18 November 2021 17:57:19 Alan Condit wrote:
> > > I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76
> > > combo. I thought I had everything working but I still can’t get
> > > the spindle working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor
> > > that I am controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am
> > > using the analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to
> > > control the spindle speed. I have a 100 count encoder with index
> > > (homemade) on the spindle. The spindle starts under LCNC control
> > > but I am not getting an “at speed indication” at above 60rpm.
> >
> > I might add that most of those treadmill controllers are far from
> > linear controllers even with a large buildout resistor between the
> > 7i76 card and their actual speed. The Pico Systems PWM-SERVO amp is
> > the answer but be sure and tell Jon your are running a spindle motor
> > with it which is a CCS load, it normally comes with an ICAS tuning
> > for servo's which stop when they get there, spindles don't. The Pico
> > will need a suitable analog DC power supply, whereas the Cycletrol
> > probably runs from raw AC. I have used the treadmill controllers, a
> > couple times, but never got good control so it was only till I built
> > a better way.
> >
> > Now I use large amounts of P-Gain and the only indication of excess
> > load is when Jons driver throttles the motor at about 18 amps,
> > making the iron in the motor chirp quietly.  Thats right close to 2
> > hp from a 1hp rated motor but neither has even needed fresh brushes
> > in years.
> >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Alan Condit]

Gene,

Sorry, this message got sent in error. I was working on my wife’s iPad and
some how a draft of an old message got sent rather than deleted.

Alan
From: Gene Heskett 

> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 18:40:59 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76
> On Thursday 18 November 2021 17:57:19 Alan Condit wrote:
>
> > I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I
> > thought I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle
> > working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am
> > controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the
> > analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the
> > spindle speed. I have a 100 count encoder with index (homemade) on the
> > spindle. The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an
> > “at speed indication” at above 60rpm.
> >
> I might add that most of those treadmill controllers are far from linear
> controllers even with a large buildout resistor between the 7i76 card
> and their actual speed. The Pico Systems PWM-SERVO amp is the answer but
> be sure and tell Jon your are running a spindle motor with it which is a
> CCS load, it normally comes with an ICAS tuning for servo's which stop
> when they get there, spindles don't. The Pico will need a suitable
> analog DC power supply, whereas the Cycletrol probably runs from raw AC.
> I have used the treadmill controllers, a couple times, but never got good
> control so it was only till I built a better way.
>
> Now I use large amounts of P-Gain and the only indication of excess load
> is when Jons driver throttles the motor at about 18 amps, making the
> iron in the motor chirp quietly.  Thats right close to 2 hp from a 1hp
> rated motor but neither has even needed fresh brushes in years.
>
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
>
>
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 18 November 2021 17:57:19 Alan Condit wrote:

> I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I
> thought I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle
> working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am
> controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the
> analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the
> spindle speed. I have a 100 count encoder with index (homemade) on the
> spindle. The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an
> “at speed indication” at above 60rpm.
>
I might add that most of those treadmill controllers are far from linear 
controllers even with a large buildout resistor between the 7i76 card 
and their actual speed. The Pico Systems PWM-SERVO amp is the answer but 
be sure and tell Jon your are running a spindle motor with it which is a 
CCS load, it normally comes with an ICAS tuning for servo's which stop 
when they get there, spindles don't. The Pico will need a suitable 
analog DC power supply, whereas the Cycletrol probably runs from raw AC.
I have used the treadmill controllers, a couple times, but never got good 
control so it was only till I built a better way.

Now I use large amounts of P-Gain and the only indication of excess load 
is when Jons driver throttles the motor at about 18 amps, making the 
iron in the motor chirp quietly.  Thats right close to 2 hp from a 1hp 
rated motor but neither has even needed fresh brushes in years.

> Sent from my iPad
>
> ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 18 November 2021 17:57:19 Alan Condit wrote:

> I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I
> thought I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle
> working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am
> controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the
> analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the
> spindle speed. I have a 100 count encoder with index (homemade) on the
> spindle. The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an
> “at speed indication” at above 60rpm.
>
Can you post that piece of your .hal file?

Your 100 count encoder, if quadrature output and index, (ABX or ABZ) 
should be running with a 400 "SPINDLE_SCALE" in the ini file, as its 
edges that usually count. Hooking up a pyvcp tach might be a good move.

Checking the encoder output with a decent triggered scope would serve as 
a speed chck by measureing the time from rising edge to the next rising 
edge, and taking the reciprical which would be the speed in rps, 
multiply by 60 for rpm.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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[Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Alan Condit]

I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I thought I 
had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle working correctly.
I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a Cycletrol-150 
DC controller. The am using the analog out from the 7i76 to replace the 
potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 count encoder with 
index (homemade) on the spindle.
The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an “at speed 
indication” at above 60rpm. 


Sent from my iPad

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 22:54, Alan Condit  wrote:
> I have the Cycletrol-150 Manual. It says that you can replace the 5k ohm 
> potentiometer with a 0-10v analog signal. The 7i76 manual says that you can 
> use it to replace a 5k potentiometer control (0-10v). So that should work and 
> indeed seems to be working. I have tried adjusting the detectors to 90°. I 
> have an old Tectronix scope and they look pretty good there. It now has a 
> solid “at speed indication” up to about 250rpm. So now I am suspecting that I 
> don’t have the PNCConf configuration quite correct for the spindle. At the 
> top of the range the Speed Indicator fluctuates from about 400 to 600 rpm 
> while the motor sounds like it is holding dead steady.

You could try plotting encoder _position_ in Halscope to see if it is
a straight line.
(trigger halscope on a falling edge of spindle index enable, then
start (for example) a G33 move)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 13 September 2021 18:20:17 Alan Condit wrote:

> Update, I found some old photos of the motor’s id plate. I thought it
> was rated at 6000 rpm at 110 volts, but it was really only 3000rpm at
> 110volts. When I adjusted the maximum rpm in PNCConf, suddenly I was
> getting a solid “At Speed” indicator.
>
> John,
>I will still try measuring the analog voltage at various rpms and
> if I can get at it I will measure the DC voltage out.
>
> Peter,
> Thanks for the suggestion about the encoder phasing, I don’t think
> it was going to work without fixing that.
>
> Gene,
>  Could you go ahead and send me your configs. I can have a
> jackshaft driven by toothed belt with a 3 step pulley or a pair of
> three step pulleys on the motor and spindle. So six possible gearing
> combinations.
>
I'll tarball that whole config directory and send it by PM.

But, even with 6 speeds, you are belt driven so there will be an unk 
amount of belt slippage.  So if turning a spindle, the random slippage 
will probably trash any holes you try to to rigid tap. The bare minimum 
still needs a once per rev index pulse from the spindle.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Alan Condit]

Update, I found some old photos of the motor’s id plate. I thought it was rated 
at 6000 rpm at 110 volts, but it was really only 3000rpm at 110volts. When I 
adjusted the maximum rpm in PNCConf, suddenly I was getting a solid “At Speed” 
indicator. 

John,
   I will still try measuring the analog voltage at various rpms and if I can 
get at it I will measure the DC voltage out.

Peter,
Thanks for the suggestion about the encoder phasing, I don’t think it was 
going to work without fixing that.

Gene,
 Could you go ahead and send me your configs. I can have a jackshaft driven 
by toothed belt with a 3 step pulley or a pair of three step pulleys on the 
motor and spindle. So six possible gearing combinations.


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 13 September 2021 16:51:42 Alan Condit wrote:

> John, Peter and Gene,
>
> I have the Cycletrol-150 Manual. It says that you can replace the 5k
> ohm potentiometer with a 0-10v analog signal. The 7i76 manual says
> that you can use it to replace a 5k potentiometer control (0-10v). So
> that should work and indeed seems to be working. I have tried
> adjusting the detectors to 90°. I have an old Tectronix scope and they
> look pretty good there. It now has a solid “at speed indication” up to
> about 250rpm. So now I am suspecting that I don’t have the PNCConf
> configuration quite correct for the spindle. At the top of the range
> the Speed Indicator fluctuates from about 400 to 600 rpm while the
> motor sounds like it is holding dead steady. One of my problems is
> that I don’t actually know what the rpm of the motor should be at
> 90volts. It is a Pacific Scientific motor rated 1.5hp at 110v DC.
>
> Thanks,
> Alan

If you are falling apart at 250 rpms, the first thing I would check is 
the speed of any opto stuff in the path from your encoder output back to 
LinuxCNC to the the encoder that shuld be labeled a decoder in the 
hardware at the computer end of the path. Get that old tech to look at 
the encoder inputs at the 5i25 or 7i76. I'd be willing to bet a small 
sum the good, square waves from your hardware are half amplitude saw 
teeth by the time they get to the mesa card(s)
>
> > I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo.
> > I thought I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle
> > working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am
> > controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the
> > analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the
> > spindle speed. I have a 100 slot encoder with index (homemade) on
> > the spindle.

That would be 400 edges per turn. And since the motor doesn't seem to be 
affected, the feedback to the spindle's pid is also getting lost.
> >
> > The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an “at
> > speed indication” at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is is
> > running at a steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates
> > wildly. I am suspicious of the spindle encoder. Before I was just
> > running it as a 100 count counter with index and it worked fine. I
> > can’t figure out in PNCConf how to set up a spindle counter with
> > index for the 7i76.
> >
> >> From: "John Dammeyer" 
> >>
> >> Hi Alan,
> >>
> >> This is what I found for a Cycletrol DC motor controller.
> >> http://www.grahammotorandcontrols.com/item_dc_motor_controller/176B
> >>6002/58
> >>
> >>
> >> There is no guarantee that a PWM output will emulate a
> >> potentiometer.  That's the first place to look First put the pot
> >> back and measure the voltage between the wiper and ground as you
> >> control the speed from 0 to full RPM open loop.  And depending on
> >> how it's powered be careful that the pot inputs aren't indirectly
> >> connected to ground.
> >>
> >> It's always possible the speed control won't work unless there is
> >> also 5K Ohm between pin 9 and 11.
> >>
> >> It's also possible the pot changes the resistance (as a rheostat)
> >> in a feedback circuit so input PWM may or may not work.
> >>
> >> Also PWM is exactly that pulse width.  Unless you have a filter
> >> capacitor across that with a bleeder resistor to ground (Pin 11)
> >> the internal circuit many not integrate the PWM enough for it to
> >> work.
> >>
> >> For example I bought a small Chinese PWM to 0-10V module that has
> >> the rule that the PWM frequency can't be higher than 1kHz.  Try it
> >> with 10kHz and it won't create a lower voltage.  So PWM frequency
> >> is a parameter that must be correct.
> >>
> >> I also, way back, bought a step/dir to 0-10V controller that
> >> produced 10V at 25kHz step rate.  The problem was my ELS was
> >> limited to 20kHz so I never could get 10V out of it.
> >>
> >> I don't believe your 100 PPR encoder is the issue.  I'm running my
> >> spindle with 60 PPR and can do power tapping on the mill.
> >>
> >> It may still be possible to find these UHU or HP_UHU kits
> >> somewhere.  I ended up using them because the GECKO servo drives I
> >> bought were only good to 80V and my servo motors like more than
> >> 90V.  The HP_UHU kit was good to over 200VDC.
> >> https://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo-motors-drives/342836-uhu-servo
> >>-controller-build.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Similarly there are still some STMBL kits out there.  These can
> >> actually take the smart serial input from the MESA boards or
> >> step/dir.  I'm not sure that 0-10V was very implemented.
> >> https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/stmbl_servo_motor_drive
> >>.html
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: "Peter C. Wallace" 
> >>
> >> I would first check the A/B phasing and symmetry by monitoring the
> >> A and B inputs with halscope when turning at a slow speed (say 100
> >> RPM or less) The pins to 

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[John Dammeyer]

Alan,
Can you run the motor open loop with a 0V-10V power supply?If you remove 
the CNC from the loop first then you can measure top speed with 90V and 10V 
input.

Next, put the CNC system back on it and use the scope to look at the PWM 
output.   If it's not a voltage level but still pulses add a 10uF 16V capacitor 
across it.  Then see if the voltage level changes from 0V to 10V.

Baby steps...
John



> -Original Message-
> From: Alan Condit [mailto:condit.a...@gmail.com]
> Sent: September-13-21 1:52 PM
> To: Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76
> 
> John, Peter and Gene,
> 
> I have the Cycletrol-150 Manual. It says that you can replace the 5k ohm 
> potentiometer with a 0-10v analog signal. The 7i76 manual
> says that you can use it to replace a 5k potentiometer control (0-10v). So 
> that should work and indeed seems to be working. I have
> tried adjusting the detectors to 90�. I have an old Tectronix scope and they 
> look pretty good there. It now has a solid �at speed
> indication� up to about 250rpm. So now I am suspecting that I don�t have the 
> PNCConf configuration quite correct for the spindle.
> At the top of the range the Speed Indicator fluctuates from about 400 to 600 
> rpm while the motor sounds like it is holding dead
> steady.
> One of my problems is that I don�t actually know what the rpm of the motor 
> should be at 90volts. It is a Pacific Scientific motor rated
> 1.5hp at 110v DC.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> > I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I 
> > thought I had everything working but I still can�t get the
> spindle working correctly.
> > I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a 
> > Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the analog out from the
> 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 
> slot encoder with index (homemade) on the spindle.
> >
> > The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an �at speed 
> > indication� at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like
> is is running at a steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates 
> wildly. I am suspicious of the spindle encoder. Before I was
> just running it as a 100 count counter with index and it worked fine. I can�t 
> figure out in PNCConf how to set up a spindle counter
> with index for the 7i76.
> >
> >> From: "John Dammeyer" 
> >>
> >> Hi Alan,
> >>
> >> This is what I found for a Cycletrol DC motor controller.
> >> http://www.grahammotorandcontrols.com/item_dc_motor_controller/176B6002/58
> >>
> >>
> >> There is no guarantee that a PWM output will emulate a potentiometer.  
> >> That's the first place to look
> >> First put the pot back and measure the voltage between the wiper and 
> >> ground as you control the speed from 0 to full RPM open
> loop.  And depending on how it's powered be careful that the pot inputs 
> aren't indirectly connected to ground.
> >>
> >> It's always possible the speed control won't work unless there is also 5K 
> >> Ohm between pin 9 and 11.
> >>
> >> It's also possible the pot changes the resistance (as a rheostat) in a 
> >> feedback circuit so input PWM may or may not work.
> >>
> >> Also PWM is exactly that pulse width.  Unless you have a filter capacitor 
> >> across that with a bleeder resistor to ground (Pin 11) the
> internal circuit many not integrate the PWM enough for it to work.
> >>
> >> For example I bought a small Chinese PWM to 0-10V module that has the rule 
> >> that the PWM frequency can't be higher than 1kHz.
> Try it with 10kHz and it won't create a lower voltage.  So PWM frequency is a 
> parameter that must be correct.
> >>
> >> I also, way back, bought a step/dir to 0-10V controller that produced 10V 
> >> at 25kHz step rate.  The problem was my ELS was
> limited to 20kHz so I never could get 10V out of it.
> >>
> >> I don't believe your 100 PPR encoder is the issue.  I'm running my spindle 
> >> with 60 PPR and can do power tapping on the mill.
> >>
> >> It may still be possible to find these UHU or HP_UHU kits somewhere.  I 
> >> ended up using them because the GECKO servo drives I
> bought were only good to 80V and my servo motors like more than 90V.  The 
> HP_UHU kit was good to over 200VDC.
> >> https://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo-motors-drives/342836-uhu-servo-controller-build.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Similarly there are still some STMBL kits out there.  These c

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Alan Condit]

John, Peter and Gene,

I have the Cycletrol-150 Manual. It says that you can replace the 5k ohm 
potentiometer with a 0-10v analog signal. The 7i76 manual says that you can use 
it to replace a 5k potentiometer control (0-10v). So that should work and 
indeed seems to be working. I have tried adjusting the detectors to 90°. I have 
an old Tectronix scope and they look pretty good there. It now has a solid “at 
speed indication” up to about 250rpm. So now I am suspecting that I don’t have 
the PNCConf configuration quite correct for the spindle. At the top of the 
range the Speed Indicator fluctuates from about 400 to 600 rpm while the motor 
sounds like it is holding dead steady.
One of my problems is that I don’t actually know what the rpm of the motor 
should be at 90volts. It is a Pacific Scientific motor rated 1.5hp at 110v DC.

Thanks,
Alan



> I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I thought 
> I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle working correctly.
> I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a 
> Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the analog out from the 7i76 to 
> replace the potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 slot 
> encoder with index (homemade) on the spindle.
> 
> The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an “at speed 
> indication” at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is is running at a 
> steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates wildly. I am 
> suspicious of the spindle encoder. Before I was just running it as a 100 
> count counter with index and it worked fine. I can’t figure out in PNCConf 
> how to set up a spindle counter with index for the 7i76.
> 
>> From: "John Dammeyer" 
>> 
>> Hi Alan,
>> 
>> This is what I found for a Cycletrol DC motor controller.
>> http://www.grahammotorandcontrols.com/item_dc_motor_controller/176B6002/58
>> 
>> 
>> There is no guarantee that a PWM output will emulate a potentiometer.  
>> That's the first place to look
>> First put the pot back and measure the voltage between the wiper and ground 
>> as you control the speed from 0 to full RPM open loop.  And depending on how 
>> it's powered be careful that the pot inputs aren't indirectly connected to 
>> ground.
>> 
>> It's always possible the speed control won't work unless there is also 5K 
>> Ohm between pin 9 and 11.
>> 
>> It's also possible the pot changes the resistance (as a rheostat) in a 
>> feedback circuit so input PWM may or may not work.  
>> 
>> Also PWM is exactly that pulse width.  Unless you have a filter capacitor 
>> across that with a bleeder resistor to ground (Pin 11) the internal circuit 
>> many not integrate the PWM enough for it to work.  
>> 
>> For example I bought a small Chinese PWM to 0-10V module that has the rule 
>> that the PWM frequency can't be higher than 1kHz.  Try it with 10kHz and it 
>> won't create a lower voltage.  So PWM frequency is a parameter that must be 
>> correct.
>> 
>> I also, way back, bought a step/dir to 0-10V controller that produced 10V at 
>> 25kHz step rate.  The problem was my ELS was limited to 20kHz so I never 
>> could get 10V out of it.
>> 
>> I don't believe your 100 PPR encoder is the issue.  I'm running my spindle 
>> with 60 PPR and can do power tapping on the mill.  
>> 
>> It may still be possible to find these UHU or HP_UHU kits somewhere.  I 
>> ended up using them because the GECKO servo drives I bought were only good 
>> to 80V and my servo motors like more than 90V.  The HP_UHU kit was good to 
>> over 200VDC.
>> https://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo-motors-drives/342836-uhu-servo-controller-build.html
>> 
>> 
>> Similarly there are still some STMBL kits out there.  These can actually 
>> take the smart serial input from the MESA boards or step/dir.  I'm not sure 
>> that 0-10V was very implemented.
>> https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/stmbl_servo_motor_drive.html
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: "Peter C. Wallace" 
>> 
>> I would first check the A/B phasing and symmetry by monitoring the A and B 
>> inputs with halscope when turning at a slow speed (say 100 RPM or less)
>> The pins to monitor would be:
>> 
>> hm2_5i25.0.encoder.00.input-a
>> hm2_5i25.0.encoder.00.input-b
>> 
>> Ideally both A and B should be square waves (50% duty cycle)
>> and have a 90 degree phase difference (A changes in the middle of B high and 
>> B low times and vice versa)
>> 
>> 
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: Gene Heskett 
>> 
>> On Sunday 12 September 2021 17:49:43 Alan Condit wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> getting proper quadrature out of homemade stuff is a bear with 4 sore paws. 
>> I know, I done it about 3 times now. I would in your shoes do this which has 
>> worked really well here.
>> 
>> How many "gear shifts" do you have between the motor and the actual 
>> spindlle? You could probably do more than 2, but thats all the gears I have 
>> on my g0704. I have tally switches on that 

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 12 September 2021 17:49:43 Alan Condit wrote:

> I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I
> thought I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle
> working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am
> controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the
> analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the
> spindle speed. I have a 100 slot encoder with index (homemade) on the
> spindle.
>
> The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an “at
> speed indication” at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is is
> running at a steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates
> wildly. I am suspicious of the spindle encoder. Before I was just
> running it as a 100 count counter with index and it worked fine. I
> can’t figure out in PNCConf how to set up a spindle counter with index
> for the 7i76.
>
> Questions:
> Is it likely that my encoder is the problem?
> I don’t know how to adjust the detectors to be out of cycle by 90°?
> Any helpful hints? Should I just go back to the 100 slot counter?
> Should I replace my whole homemade encoder with a real commercial
> spindle encoder?

getting proper quadrature out of homemade stuff is a bear with 4 sore 
paws. I know, I done it about 3 times now. I would in your shoes do this 
which has worked really well here.

How many "gear shifts" do you have between the motor and the actual 
spindlle? You could probably do more than 2, but thats all the gears I 
have on my g0704. I have tally switches on that knob that tell linuxcnc 
what, if any, gear it is in. I have a sibgle screw glued to the side of 
the drawbar cap that is read by an ATS-667 hall effect device for the 
once per turn "index signal" to an encoder. Prowl ebay and get a cheap 
1000 line encoder for a $20 bill, and spin it with the back of the 
spindle motor shaft. It will be way to fast to get thru the average 
BoB's opto stuff, so you'll have to use one of the encoders in the 5i25, 
which can do that fast a signal or hack the BoB to remove them.  Feed 
the same encoder you are feedingthe index into with the outputs of this 
encoder
.
Not knowing the gear ratio in either gear, I hacked up a counter in hal 
that starts counting pulses from an encoder on the back of the spindle 
motor, counting them for 100 turns of the spindle as seen by the 
ATS-667, and freezing the count so you can read it with a hal-meter. 
Divide that count by 100 and you have the "SCALE" value for that gear. 
Repeat for the other gear. then use the tally switches and a mux to feed 
the correct SCALE into that input to linuxcnc. For my g0704, that scale 
is a hair over 7,000 in high gear, and a different hair over 14,000 in 
low gear. And with that high a scale, quantization noise flat 
disappears, allowing very high pid Pgain values, 20 or more for 
extremely stiff spindle speed control. I use the PICO pwm-servo amp, and 
the only time I can tell the spindle is loaded really heavily is when 
the iron in the motor starts squeaking as that 9.7 amp motor is being 
throttled at around 18 amps by the pwm-servo.  Thats about 2 hp from a 1 
hp rated motor, but its had 6 years to complain and hasn't, not even 
asking for fresh brushes. 

When you are ready, let me know and I'll pm you my hal files and such so 
you can cherry pick and use what you want.

Take care now Alan.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2021, Alan Condit wrote:


Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 16:49:43 -0500
From: Alan Condit 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net" 
Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76





I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I thought I 
had everything working but I still can??t get the spindle working correctly. I 
have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC 
controller. The am using the analog out from the 7i76 to replace the 
potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 slot encoder with 
index (homemade) on the spindle.


The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an ??at speed 
indication?? at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is is running at a 
steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates wildly. I am suspicious 
of the spindle encoder. Before I was just running it as a 100 count counter 
with index and it worked fine. I can??t figure out in PNCConf how to set up a

spindle counter with index for the 7i76.

Questions: 
Is it likely that my encoder is the problem? 
I don??t know how to adjust the detectors to be out of cycle by 90??? Any 
helpful hints? Should I just go back to the 100 slot counter?

Should I replace my whole homemade encoder with a real commercial
spindle encoder?



I would first check the A/B phasing and symmetry by monitoring the A and B 
inputs with halscope when turning at a slow speed (say 100 RPM or less)

The pins to monitor would be:

hm2_5i25.0.encoder.00.input-a
hm2_5i25.0.encoder.00.input-b


Ideally both A and B should be square waves (50% duty cycle)
and have a 90 degree phase difference (A changes in the middle of B high and B 
low times and vice versa)




Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Alan,
> From: Alan Condit [mailto:condit.a...@gmail.com]
> I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I thought 
> I had everything working but I still can�t get the spindle
> working correctly.
> I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a 
> Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the analog out from the
> 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 
> slot encoder with index (homemade) on the spindle.

This is what I found for a Cycletrol DC motor controller.
http://www.grahammotorandcontrols.com/item_dc_motor_controller/176B6002/58


There is no guarantee that a PWM output will emulate a potentiometer.  That's 
the first place to look
First put the pot back and measure the voltage between the wiper and ground as 
you control the speed from 0 to full RPM open loop.  And depending on how it's 
powered be careful that the pot inputs aren't indirectly connected to ground.

It's always possible the speed control won't work unless there is also 5K Ohm 
between pin 9 and 11.

It's also possible the pot changes the resistance (as a rheostat) in a feedback 
circuit so input PWM may or may not work.  

Also PWM is exactly that pulse width.  Unless you have a filter capacitor 
across that with a bleeder resistor to ground (Pin 11) the internal circuit 
many not integrate the PWM enough for it to work.  

For example I bought a small Chinese PWM to 0-10V module that has the rule that 
the PWM frequency can't be higher than 1kHz.  Try it with 10kHz and it won't 
create a lower voltage.  So PWM frequency is a parameter that must be correct.

I also, way back, bought a step/dir to 0-10V controller that produced 10V at 
25kHz step rate.  The problem was my ELS was limited to 20kHz so I never could 
get 10V out of it.

I don't believe your 100 PPR encoder is the issue.  I'm running my spindle with 
60 PPR and can do power tapping on the mill.  

It may still be possible to find these UHU or HP_UHU kits somewhere.  I ended 
up using them because the GECKO servo drives I bought were only good to 80V and 
my servo motors like more than 90V.  The HP_UHU kit was good to over 200VDC.
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo-motors-drives/342836-uhu-servo-controller-build.html


Similarly there are still some STMBL kits out there.  These can actually take 
the smart serial input from the MESA boards or step/dir.  I'm not sure that 
0-10V was very implemented.
https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/stmbl_servo_motor_drive.html

John


> 
> The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an �at speed 
> indication� at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is
> is running at a steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates 
> wildly. I am suspicious of the spindle encoder. Before I was
> just running it as a 100 count counter with index and it worked fine. I can�t 
> figure out in PNCConf how to set up a spindle counter
> with index for the 7i76.
> 
> Questions:
> Is it likely that my encoder is the problem?
> I don�t know how to adjust the detectors to be out of cycle by 90�? Any 
> helpful hints?
> Should I just go back to the 100 slot counter?
> Should I replace my whole homemade encoder with a real commercial spindle 
> encoder?
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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[Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

[Alan Condit]

I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I thought I 
had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle working correctly.
I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a Cycletrol-150 
DC controller. The am using the analog out from the 7i76 to replace the 
potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 slot encoder with 
index (homemade) on the spindle.

The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an “at speed 
indication” at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is is running at a 
steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates wildly. I am suspicious 
of the spindle encoder. Before I was just running it as a 100 count counter 
with index and it worked fine. I can’t figure out in PNCConf how to set up a 
spindle counter with index for the 7i76.

Questions: 
Is it likely that my encoder is the problem? 
I don’t know how to adjust the detectors to be out of cycle by 90°? Any helpful 
hints?
Should I just go back to the 100 slot counter?
Should I replace my whole homemade encoder with a real commercial spindle 
encoder?

Sent from my iPad

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