Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Dave Cole]

On 1/28/2016 8:18 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> For future projects I will choose GS2 drives and will will not ever buy
> another GS1 drive. To me they are not worth the cost savings.

Sounds like good advice.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Eric Keller]

In my experience, the high-end VFDs also show filters on input and
output.  However, the ones I've taken apart seem to have some output
filtering

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Dave Cole  wrote:
> The GS1 and even the GS2 are basic VFDs which do what they say and then
> some.
> I've used them in control boxes with PLCs and PCs but they are usually
> the number 1 noise producers in the panel.
> If you look at their installation instructions they usually include a
> filter on the input of the drive and I believe for European
> installations they say that
> an output filter/choke is required to meet European requirements.
> That makes the inexpensive GS drives not so inexpensive after all of the
> filters are installed.
> On the otherhand, I have used the GS2 drives on some standalone
> installations without a PLC or PC nearby and they have worked fine
> without complications.However, YMMV.
> The built in PID loop along with a dancer arm and pot can make for a
> really cheap unwinder for reeled products, like rubber extrusions etc.
> Andy doesn't miss much.   I wonder if he is good at picking lottery
> ticket numbers??  ;-)
>
> Dave
>
> On 1/28/2016 9:14 AM, Jim Craig wrote:
>> An update and semi success story.
>>
>> After dinking with the noise from the GS1 VFD for way to many hours. I
>> was finally able to get rid of the noise. I removed the drive. I put in
>> a run capacitor and have the coolant pump running off the original
>> contactor. I wound up using a 3uf capacitor.  I tried a 2uf and it ran
>> but it ran smoother with a 3uf.
>>
>> I can run the machine will all features running and I don't have any
>> noise at all.
>>
>> Based on my experience I would not recommend the GS1 drive at all.
>> However if you have a need for a 1/4hp VFD let me know. I have one I
>> will sell cheap.
>>
>> Thanks for all of the advice.
>>
>> Andy, Does it hurt to be right all the time? LOL!
>>
>> Later,
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On 1/23/2016 6:22 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>>> You don't need to disconnect the shields at one end on the power
>>> conductor shields.
>>> Those are normally connected at each end.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On 1/22/2016 5:23 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
 I spent all afternoon looking for and trying to remove ground loops. I
 think I found all that I can eliminate. I have a couple minor ones due
 to the mounting of my PC motherboard/SSD that I don't think I can remove
 without making new mounting fixtures.

 I did find one that I was sure was going to fix the issue. My encoder
 breakout board that converts the honda connectors to RJ45 connectors had
 the power ground going to chassis ground due to the mounting bolts. I
 fixed that and removed that ground loop. I was sure that would fix the
 issue but it did not.

 Also the shields on the servo motor power cables are grounded at both
 ends in the motor and at the drive side. I disconnected the drive side.
 I am not sure if this is a good idea or not as It could pose a safety
 hazard.

 And for everyone's information the encoder cables are shielded, shields
 grounded at the control board only, the signals are differential and I
 am STILL having this issue.

 Anyway after all of this the noise is still present when running the GS1
 drive for the coolant pump. I think I will try to source a run capacitor
 and switch back to a contactor for start stop on the coolant pump.

 The filter that I am using on the GS1 drive is a Tyco Corcom 5VB1. I
 don't have an operating scope to look at the noise on the lines.

 Thanks for the feedback everyone. Should have listened to Andy 6 months
 ago and went with the run capacitor then! ; ) : (

 Jim

 On 1/22/2016 3:52 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Are you using decent filters??
>
> GS1 and GS2 drives tend to pump a lot of RF noise up the power supply 
> line.
> I've used the AD filters with good success.   I think the one I used was
> about $80.
> If you are using cheap Ebay filters  sometimes you get what you pay 
> for.
>
> Have you put a scope on your AC lines to see if the filters are
> effective??  I suspect they are not.
> Re-routing your drive to motor leads is also sometimes effective.   Keep
> them as far away from low voltage wiring as possible.
>
> Dave
>
> On 1/22/2016 12:51 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders.
>> I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1
>> VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not
>> running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains
>> correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get
>> false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This
>> problem 

Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Jon Elson]

On 01/28/2016 08:14 AM, Jim Craig wrote:
> An update and semi success story.
>
> After dinking with the noise from the GS1 VFD for way to many hours. I
> was finally able to get rid of the noise. I removed the drive. I put in
> a run capacitor and have the coolant pump running off the original
> contactor. I wound up using a 3uf capacitor.  I tried a 2uf and it ran
> but it ran smoother with a 3uf.
>
> I can run the machine will all features running and I don't have any
> noise at all.
>
> Based on my experience I would not recommend the GS1 drive at all.
> However if you have a need for a 1/4hp VFD let me know. I have one I
> will sell cheap.
>
>
Well, glad you solved it (one way or another).  One thing to 
check for is if the coolant pump motor runs hot after a long 
run.  The right run cap value will help, but you are still 
running a 3-phase motor mostly on single-phase power.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Dave Cole]

The GS1 and even the GS2 are basic VFDs which do what they say and then 
some.
I've used them in control boxes with PLCs and PCs but they are usually 
the number 1 noise producers in the panel.
If you look at their installation instructions they usually include a 
filter on the input of the drive and I believe for European 
installations they say that
an output filter/choke is required to meet European requirements.
That makes the inexpensive GS drives not so inexpensive after all of the 
filters are installed.
On the otherhand, I have used the GS2 drives on some standalone 
installations without a PLC or PC nearby and they have worked fine 
without complications.However, YMMV.
The built in PID loop along with a dancer arm and pot can make for a 
really cheap unwinder for reeled products, like rubber extrusions etc.
Andy doesn't miss much.   I wonder if he is good at picking lottery 
ticket numbers??  ;-)

Dave

On 1/28/2016 9:14 AM, Jim Craig wrote:
> An update and semi success story.
>
> After dinking with the noise from the GS1 VFD for way to many hours. I
> was finally able to get rid of the noise. I removed the drive. I put in
> a run capacitor and have the coolant pump running off the original
> contactor. I wound up using a 3uf capacitor.  I tried a 2uf and it ran
> but it ran smoother with a 3uf.
>
> I can run the machine will all features running and I don't have any
> noise at all.
>
> Based on my experience I would not recommend the GS1 drive at all.
> However if you have a need for a 1/4hp VFD let me know. I have one I
> will sell cheap.
>
> Thanks for all of the advice.
>
> Andy, Does it hurt to be right all the time? LOL!
>
> Later,
>
> Jim
>
> On 1/23/2016 6:22 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> You don't need to disconnect the shields at one end on the power
>> conductor shields.
>> Those are normally connected at each end.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On 1/22/2016 5:23 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
>>> I spent all afternoon looking for and trying to remove ground loops. I
>>> think I found all that I can eliminate. I have a couple minor ones due
>>> to the mounting of my PC motherboard/SSD that I don't think I can remove
>>> without making new mounting fixtures.
>>>
>>> I did find one that I was sure was going to fix the issue. My encoder
>>> breakout board that converts the honda connectors to RJ45 connectors had
>>> the power ground going to chassis ground due to the mounting bolts. I
>>> fixed that and removed that ground loop. I was sure that would fix the
>>> issue but it did not.
>>>
>>> Also the shields on the servo motor power cables are grounded at both
>>> ends in the motor and at the drive side. I disconnected the drive side.
>>> I am not sure if this is a good idea or not as It could pose a safety
>>> hazard.
>>>
>>> And for everyone's information the encoder cables are shielded, shields
>>> grounded at the control board only, the signals are differential and I
>>> am STILL having this issue.
>>>
>>> Anyway after all of this the noise is still present when running the GS1
>>> drive for the coolant pump. I think I will try to source a run capacitor
>>> and switch back to a contactor for start stop on the coolant pump.
>>>
>>> The filter that I am using on the GS1 drive is a Tyco Corcom 5VB1. I
>>> don't have an operating scope to look at the noise on the lines.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the feedback everyone. Should have listened to Andy 6 months
>>> ago and went with the run capacitor then! ; ) : (
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> On 1/22/2016 3:52 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
 Are you using decent filters??

 GS1 and GS2 drives tend to pump a lot of RF noise up the power supply line.
 I've used the AD filters with good success.   I think the one I used was
 about $80.
 If you are using cheap Ebay filters  sometimes you get what you pay 
 for.

 Have you put a scope on your AC lines to see if the filters are
 effective??  I suspect they are not.
 Re-routing your drive to motor leads is also sometimes effective.   Keep
 them as far away from low voltage wiring as possible.

 Dave

 On 1/22/2016 12:51 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders.
> I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1
> VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not
> running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains
> correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get
> false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This
> problem showed up immediately after I retrofitted the machine this last
> summer. I have just now been able to diagnose where the issue is
> originating.
>
> In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
>   Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant 
> and
> spindle vfds.
>  

Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Dave Cole]

The high end VFDs I've used recommend chokes on the output only if the 
motor lead runs are hundreds of feet unless the install needs to be 
super clean RF wise.
Input chokes or drive isolation transformers are pretty common for the 
input, although I have seen a number installed without them. But large 
high end drives have a lot different economics than a cheap GS1 drive.
If the drive costs $5000, few people complain about a $600 input choke.

Dave

On 1/28/2016 11:52 AM, Eric Keller wrote:
> In my experience, the high-end VFDs also show filters on input and
> output.  However, the ones I've taken apart seem to have some output
> filtering
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Dave Cole  wrote:
>> The GS1 and even the GS2 are basic VFDs which do what they say and then
>> some.
>> I've used them in control boxes with PLCs and PCs but they are usually
>> the number 1 noise producers in the panel.
>> If you look at their installation instructions they usually include a
>> filter on the input of the drive and I believe for European
>> installations they say that
>> an output filter/choke is required to meet European requirements.
>> That makes the inexpensive GS drives not so inexpensive after all of the
>> filters are installed.
>> On the otherhand, I have used the GS2 drives on some standalone
>> installations without a PLC or PC nearby and they have worked fine
>> without complications.However, YMMV.
>> The built in PID loop along with a dancer arm and pot can make for a
>> really cheap unwinder for reeled products, like rubber extrusions etc.
>> Andy doesn't miss much.   I wonder if he is good at picking lottery
>> ticket numbers??  ;-)
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On 1/28/2016 9:14 AM, Jim Craig wrote:
>>> An update and semi success story.
>>>
>>> After dinking with the noise from the GS1 VFD for way to many hours. I
>>> was finally able to get rid of the noise. I removed the drive. I put in
>>> a run capacitor and have the coolant pump running off the original
>>> contactor. I wound up using a 3uf capacitor.  I tried a 2uf and it ran
>>> but it ran smoother with a 3uf.
>>>
>>> I can run the machine will all features running and I don't have any
>>> noise at all.
>>>
>>> Based on my experience I would not recommend the GS1 drive at all.
>>> However if you have a need for a 1/4hp VFD let me know. I have one I
>>> will sell cheap.
>>>
>>> Thanks for all of the advice.
>>>
>>> Andy, Does it hurt to be right all the time? LOL!
>>>
>>> Later,
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> On 1/23/2016 6:22 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
 You don't need to disconnect the shields at one end on the power
 conductor shields.
 Those are normally connected at each end.

 Dave

 On 1/22/2016 5:23 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> I spent all afternoon looking for and trying to remove ground loops. I
> think I found all that I can eliminate. I have a couple minor ones due
> to the mounting of my PC motherboard/SSD that I don't think I can remove
> without making new mounting fixtures.
>
> I did find one that I was sure was going to fix the issue. My encoder
> breakout board that converts the honda connectors to RJ45 connectors had
> the power ground going to chassis ground due to the mounting bolts. I
> fixed that and removed that ground loop. I was sure that would fix the
> issue but it did not.
>
> Also the shields on the servo motor power cables are grounded at both
> ends in the motor and at the drive side. I disconnected the drive side.
> I am not sure if this is a good idea or not as It could pose a safety
> hazard.
>
> And for everyone's information the encoder cables are shielded, shields
> grounded at the control board only, the signals are differential and I
> am STILL having this issue.
>
> Anyway after all of this the noise is still present when running the GS1
> drive for the coolant pump. I think I will try to source a run capacitor
> and switch back to a contactor for start stop on the coolant pump.
>
> The filter that I am using on the GS1 drive is a Tyco Corcom 5VB1. I
> don't have an operating scope to look at the noise on the lines.
>
> Thanks for the feedback everyone. Should have listened to Andy 6 months
> ago and went with the run capacitor then! ; ) : (
>
> Jim
>
> On 1/22/2016 3:52 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> Are you using decent filters??
>>
>> GS1 and GS2 drives tend to pump a lot of RF noise up the power supply 
>> line.
>> I've used the AD filters with good success.   I think the one I used was
>> about $80.
>> If you are using cheap Ebay filters  sometimes you get what you pay 
>> for.
>>
>> Have you put a scope on your AC lines to see if the filters are
>> effective??  I suspect they are not.
>> Re-routing your drive to motor leads is also sometimes effective.   Keep
>> them as far away from low 

Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Jim Craig]

Based on my limited experience the noise from the GS1 must be much worse 
than the GS2. I am completely happy with the GS2 drive. As you said it 
does everything it claims and does it well.

In fact when trying to find the noise problem I was extremely surprised 
that it was the 1/4hp GS1 drive. I immediately assumed it was the 3HP 
GS2 drive since it is much larger load. I guess the Carrier frequency of 
the GS2 is higher than the GS1 and probably contributes to the drive 
being cleaner.

For future projects I will choose GS2 drives and will will not ever buy 
another GS1 drive. To me they are not worth the cost savings.

Just my 2 cents after my experience.

Thanks again for the help.

Jim

On 1/28/2016 2:33 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> The high end VFDs I've used recommend chokes on the output only if the
> motor lead runs are hundreds of feet unless the install needs to be
> super clean RF wise.
> Input chokes or drive isolation transformers are pretty common for the
> input, although I have seen a number installed without them. But large
> high end drives have a lot different economics than a cheap GS1 drive.
> If the drive costs $5000, few people complain about a $600 input choke.
>
> Dave
>
> On 1/28/2016 11:52 AM, Eric Keller wrote:
>> In my experience, the high-end VFDs also show filters on input and
>> output.  However, the ones I've taken apart seem to have some output
>> filtering
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Dave Cole  wrote:
>>> The GS1 and even the GS2 are basic VFDs which do what they say and then
>>> some.
>>> I've used them in control boxes with PLCs and PCs but they are usually
>>> the number 1 noise producers in the panel.
>>> If you look at their installation instructions they usually include a
>>> filter on the input of the drive and I believe for European
>>> installations they say that
>>> an output filter/choke is required to meet European requirements.
>>> That makes the inexpensive GS drives not so inexpensive after all of the
>>> filters are installed.
>>> On the otherhand, I have used the GS2 drives on some standalone
>>> installations without a PLC or PC nearby and they have worked fine
>>> without complications.However, YMMV.
>>> The built in PID loop along with a dancer arm and pot can make for a
>>> really cheap unwinder for reeled products, like rubber extrusions etc.
>>> Andy doesn't miss much.   I wonder if he is good at picking lottery
>>> ticket numbers??  ;-)
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On 1/28/2016 9:14 AM, Jim Craig wrote:
 An update and semi success story.

 After dinking with the noise from the GS1 VFD for way to many hours. I
 was finally able to get rid of the noise. I removed the drive. I put in
 a run capacitor and have the coolant pump running off the original
 contactor. I wound up using a 3uf capacitor.  I tried a 2uf and it ran
 but it ran smoother with a 3uf.

 I can run the machine will all features running and I don't have any
 noise at all.

 Based on my experience I would not recommend the GS1 drive at all.
 However if you have a need for a 1/4hp VFD let me know. I have one I
 will sell cheap.

 Thanks for all of the advice.

 Andy, Does it hurt to be right all the time? LOL!

 Later,

 Jim

 On 1/23/2016 6:22 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
> You don't need to disconnect the shields at one end on the power
> conductor shields.
> Those are normally connected at each end.
>
> Dave
>
> On 1/22/2016 5:23 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
>> I spent all afternoon looking for and trying to remove ground loops. I
>> think I found all that I can eliminate. I have a couple minor ones due
>> to the mounting of my PC motherboard/SSD that I don't think I can remove
>> without making new mounting fixtures.
>>
>> I did find one that I was sure was going to fix the issue. My encoder
>> breakout board that converts the honda connectors to RJ45 connectors had
>> the power ground going to chassis ground due to the mounting bolts. I
>> fixed that and removed that ground loop. I was sure that would fix the
>> issue but it did not.
>>
>> Also the shields on the servo motor power cables are grounded at both
>> ends in the motor and at the drive side. I disconnected the drive side.
>> I am not sure if this is a good idea or not as It could pose a safety
>> hazard.
>>
>> And for everyone's information the encoder cables are shielded, shields
>> grounded at the control board only, the signals are differential and I
>> am STILL having this issue.
>>
>> Anyway after all of this the noise is still present when running the GS1
>> drive for the coolant pump. I think I will try to source a run capacitor
>> and switch back to a contactor for start stop on the coolant pump.
>>
>> The filter that I am using on the GS1 drive is a Tyco Corcom 5VB1. I
>> 

Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Jim Craig]

An update and semi success story.

After dinking with the noise from the GS1 VFD for way to many hours. I 
was finally able to get rid of the noise. I removed the drive. I put in 
a run capacitor and have the coolant pump running off the original 
contactor. I wound up using a 3uf capacitor.  I tried a 2uf and it ran 
but it ran smoother with a 3uf.

I can run the machine will all features running and I don't have any 
noise at all.

Based on my experience I would not recommend the GS1 drive at all. 
However if you have a need for a 1/4hp VFD let me know. I have one I 
will sell cheap.

Thanks for all of the advice.

Andy, Does it hurt to be right all the time? LOL!

Later,

Jim

On 1/23/2016 6:22 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
> You don't need to disconnect the shields at one end on the power
> conductor shields.
> Those are normally connected at each end.
>
> Dave
>
> On 1/22/2016 5:23 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
>> I spent all afternoon looking for and trying to remove ground loops. I
>> think I found all that I can eliminate. I have a couple minor ones due
>> to the mounting of my PC motherboard/SSD that I don't think I can remove
>> without making new mounting fixtures.
>>
>> I did find one that I was sure was going to fix the issue. My encoder
>> breakout board that converts the honda connectors to RJ45 connectors had
>> the power ground going to chassis ground due to the mounting bolts. I
>> fixed that and removed that ground loop. I was sure that would fix the
>> issue but it did not.
>>
>> Also the shields on the servo motor power cables are grounded at both
>> ends in the motor and at the drive side. I disconnected the drive side.
>> I am not sure if this is a good idea or not as It could pose a safety
>> hazard.
>>
>> And for everyone's information the encoder cables are shielded, shields
>> grounded at the control board only, the signals are differential and I
>> am STILL having this issue.
>>
>> Anyway after all of this the noise is still present when running the GS1
>> drive for the coolant pump. I think I will try to source a run capacitor
>> and switch back to a contactor for start stop on the coolant pump.
>>
>> The filter that I am using on the GS1 drive is a Tyco Corcom 5VB1. I
>> don't have an operating scope to look at the noise on the lines.
>>
>> Thanks for the feedback everyone. Should have listened to Andy 6 months
>> ago and went with the run capacitor then! ; ) : (
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On 1/22/2016 3:52 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
>>> Are you using decent filters??
>>>
>>> GS1 and GS2 drives tend to pump a lot of RF noise up the power supply line.
>>> I've used the AD filters with good success.   I think the one I used was
>>> about $80.
>>> If you are using cheap Ebay filters  sometimes you get what you pay for.
>>>
>>> Have you put a scope on your AC lines to see if the filters are
>>> effective??  I suspect they are not.
>>> Re-routing your drive to motor leads is also sometimes effective.   Keep
>>> them as far away from low voltage wiring as possible.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On 1/22/2016 12:51 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
 Hey all,

 I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders.
 I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1
 VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not
 running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains
 correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get
 false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This
 problem showed up immediately after I retrofitted the machine this last
 summer. I have just now been able to diagnose where the issue is
 originating.

 In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
  Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant and
 spindle vfds.
  worked on ground system to try to isolate the noise.
  rerouted the coolant pump motor power cable completely away from
 any other cables and completely away from the machine.

 All of these things have failed to improve the noise issue.

 I also tried the following to try and diagnose the issue. I disconnected
 the coolant pump motor cable from the coolant pump vfd. Disconnected the
 spindle motor from the spindle vfd. Connected the coolant pump to the
 spindle vfd. Note that the spindle vfd is a 3.0hp Automation direct GS2
 drive.

 When I did this and ran the coolant pump via the spindle vfd there was
 no noise on the encoders.

 Does anyone have any ideas on how to get rid of this issue.  I really
 want to make some parts but I can't with the noise issue.

 I talked to a EE buddy of mine and he mentioned running both motors
 (spindle and coolant pump) off the same 3.0hp GS2 drive just to get me
 going. What do you think about this? Will running two different sized
 motors on 

Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Dave Cole]

You don't need to disconnect the shields at one end on the power 
conductor shields.
Those are normally connected at each end.

Dave

On 1/22/2016 5:23 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> I spent all afternoon looking for and trying to remove ground loops. I
> think I found all that I can eliminate. I have a couple minor ones due
> to the mounting of my PC motherboard/SSD that I don't think I can remove
> without making new mounting fixtures.
>
> I did find one that I was sure was going to fix the issue. My encoder
> breakout board that converts the honda connectors to RJ45 connectors had
> the power ground going to chassis ground due to the mounting bolts. I
> fixed that and removed that ground loop. I was sure that would fix the
> issue but it did not.
>
> Also the shields on the servo motor power cables are grounded at both
> ends in the motor and at the drive side. I disconnected the drive side.
> I am not sure if this is a good idea or not as It could pose a safety
> hazard.
>
> And for everyone's information the encoder cables are shielded, shields
> grounded at the control board only, the signals are differential and I
> am STILL having this issue.
>
> Anyway after all of this the noise is still present when running the GS1
> drive for the coolant pump. I think I will try to source a run capacitor
> and switch back to a contactor for start stop on the coolant pump.
>
> The filter that I am using on the GS1 drive is a Tyco Corcom 5VB1. I
> don't have an operating scope to look at the noise on the lines.
>
> Thanks for the feedback everyone. Should have listened to Andy 6 months
> ago and went with the run capacitor then! ; ) : (
>
> Jim
>
> On 1/22/2016 3:52 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> Are you using decent filters??
>>
>> GS1 and GS2 drives tend to pump a lot of RF noise up the power supply line.
>> I've used the AD filters with good success.   I think the one I used was
>> about $80.
>> If you are using cheap Ebay filters  sometimes you get what you pay for.
>>
>> Have you put a scope on your AC lines to see if the filters are
>> effective??  I suspect they are not.
>> Re-routing your drive to motor leads is also sometimes effective.   Keep
>> them as far away from low voltage wiring as possible.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On 1/22/2016 12:51 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
>>> Hey all,
>>>
>>> I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders.
>>> I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1
>>> VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not
>>> running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains
>>> correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get
>>> false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This
>>> problem showed up immediately after I retrofitted the machine this last
>>> summer. I have just now been able to diagnose where the issue is
>>> originating.
>>>
>>> In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
>>> Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant and
>>> spindle vfds.
>>> worked on ground system to try to isolate the noise.
>>> rerouted the coolant pump motor power cable completely away from
>>> any other cables and completely away from the machine.
>>>
>>> All of these things have failed to improve the noise issue.
>>>
>>> I also tried the following to try and diagnose the issue. I disconnected
>>> the coolant pump motor cable from the coolant pump vfd. Disconnected the
>>> spindle motor from the spindle vfd. Connected the coolant pump to the
>>> spindle vfd. Note that the spindle vfd is a 3.0hp Automation direct GS2
>>> drive.
>>>
>>> When I did this and ran the coolant pump via the spindle vfd there was
>>> no noise on the encoders.
>>>
>>> Does anyone have any ideas on how to get rid of this issue.  I really
>>> want to make some parts but I can't with the noise issue.
>>>
>>> I talked to a EE buddy of mine and he mentioned running both motors
>>> (spindle and coolant pump) off the same 3.0hp GS2 drive just to get me
>>> going. What do you think about this? Will running two different sized
>>> motors on the same VFD cause any issue. Right now I don't run my spindle
>>> in reverse so I would not have any trouble with the coolant pump running
>>> backwards.
>>>
>>> I talked to Automation Direct and they said that the GS1 is more prone
>>> to noise than the GS2. I am contemplating getting a 1/2hp GS2 to replace
>>> the GS1.
>>>
>>> So frustrated right now.
>>>
>>> Let me know if you have any ideas.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> --
>>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
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>>> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
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>>> 

Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Dave Cole]

Are you using decent filters??

GS1 and GS2 drives tend to pump a lot of RF noise up the power supply line.
I've used the AD filters with good success.   I think the one I used was 
about $80.
If you are using cheap Ebay filters  sometimes you get what you pay for.

Have you put a scope on your AC lines to see if the filters are 
effective??  I suspect they are not.
Re-routing your drive to motor leads is also sometimes effective.   Keep 
them as far away from low voltage wiring as possible.

Dave

On 1/22/2016 12:51 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders.
> I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1
> VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not
> running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains
> correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get
> false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This
> problem showed up immediately after I retrofitted the machine this last
> summer. I have just now been able to diagnose where the issue is
> originating.
>
> In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
>   Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant and
> spindle vfds.
>   worked on ground system to try to isolate the noise.
>   rerouted the coolant pump motor power cable completely away from
> any other cables and completely away from the machine.
>
> All of these things have failed to improve the noise issue.
>
> I also tried the following to try and diagnose the issue. I disconnected
> the coolant pump motor cable from the coolant pump vfd. Disconnected the
> spindle motor from the spindle vfd. Connected the coolant pump to the
> spindle vfd. Note that the spindle vfd is a 3.0hp Automation direct GS2
> drive.
>
> When I did this and ran the coolant pump via the spindle vfd there was
> no noise on the encoders.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas on how to get rid of this issue.  I really
> want to make some parts but I can't with the noise issue.
>
> I talked to a EE buddy of mine and he mentioned running both motors
> (spindle and coolant pump) off the same 3.0hp GS2 drive just to get me
> going. What do you think about this? Will running two different sized
> motors on the same VFD cause any issue. Right now I don't run my spindle
> in reverse so I would not have any trouble with the coolant pump running
> backwards.
>
> I talked to Automation Direct and they said that the GS1 is more prone
> to noise than the GS2. I am contemplating getting a 1/2hp GS2 to replace
> the GS1.
>
> So frustrated right now.
>
> Let me know if you have any ideas.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 January 2016 12:51:17 Jim Craig wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo
> encoders. I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation
> Direct GS1 VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant
> pump is not running then there is no noise on the encoders and the
> machine maintains correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on
> then the encoders get false signal that in turn changes where the
> machine thinks it is. This problem showed up immediately after I
> retrofitted the machine this last summer. I have just now been able to
> diagnose where the issue is originating.
>
> In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
>  Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant and
> spindle vfds.
>  worked on ground system to try to isolate the noise.
>  rerouted the coolant pump motor power cable completely away from
> any other cables and completely away from the machine.
>
> All of these things have failed to improve the noise issue.
>
> I also tried the following to try and diagnose the issue. I
> disconnected the coolant pump motor cable from the coolant pump vfd.
> Disconnected the spindle motor from the spindle vfd. Connected the
> coolant pump to the spindle vfd. Note that the spindle vfd is a 3.0hp
> Automation direct GS2 drive.
>
> When I did this and ran the coolant pump via the spindle vfd there was
> no noise on the encoders.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas on how to get rid of this issue.  I really
> want to make some parts but I can't with the noise issue.
>
> I talked to a EE buddy of mine and he mentioned running both motors
> (spindle and coolant pump) off the same 3.0hp GS2 drive just to get me
> going. What do you think about this? Will running two different sized
> motors on the same VFD cause any issue. Right now I don't run my
> spindle in reverse so I would not have any trouble with the coolant
> pump running backwards.
>
> I talked to Automation Direct and they said that the GS1 is more prone
> to noise than the GS2. I am contemplating getting a 1/2hp GS2 to
> replace the GS1.
>
> So frustrated right now.
>
> Let me know if you have any ideas.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim

Sound like a ground loop Jim.

I am a firm convert to single point grounding.

Can you disconnect the grounding on the encoder cable?

If so, and you can measure continuity between the disconnected grounding 
wire and that single point ground, then you have another ground 
someplace. It needs to be run down and disconnected at the encoder end 
of the cable, so that the encoders own circuitry should use the "shipped 
in on the cable" ground, not some noisy frame ground.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Bruce Layne]

Noise problems can be infuriating!

Do you need a VFD for the coolant pump?  Most people just get a large 
Little Giant pump or a Superior pump and run it off 120VAC. If you want 
to control the amount of coolant, you can open a valve to divert some of 
the output back to the reservoir, or close a valve to partially restrict 
the output.

There are two basic approaches to solving RFI/EMI problems.

1) The Shotgun Approach.  Start with the most likely culprits and/or 
easiest fixes.  It sounds like you've been doing a great job of that so 
far.  Most often, this is a matter of revising a machine to electrical 
best practices, so it's worth doing even when it doesn't fix a specific 
problem because it may prevent a future problem.

2) The Scientific Method.  This is my favorite, although I usually spend 
an hour (or ten) on step 1.  The scientific method requires data.  The 
idea is to see what type of noise you have and what causes it so you can 
have a better chance of directly fixing the problem.

The first step is to determine whether you have radiated noise or 
conducted noise.  Radiated noise would be one conductor acting as a 
transmitting antenna and another acting as a receiving antenna.  It may 
be that your encoder cable is the receiving antenna and the cable 
between the VFD and coolant pump is the transmitting antenna, in which 
case shielding the coolant pump motor cable could fix your problem.  It 
could also be that the coolant pump VFD is the source of radiated noise, 
and short of building a Faraday cage around it, you're not going to stop 
that radiated noise source.  In either case, shielding the encoder 
cables would be a good idea.

You could also have conducted noise.  The coolant pump VFD may be 
injecting electrical noise onto the power lines that feed it and 
whatever powers your encoder circuit.  This seems unlikely.  The VFD may 
be adding noise to the line, but the power supply for the encoder 
circuit is probably immune to most noise of this variety. The fact that 
you already added an EMI filter to the power leads of the coolant VFD 
without any success would keep me from barking up that tree any more, 
but you could always add an isolation transformer to block higher 
frequencies.  I wouldn't bother, as that's likely to be more wasted 
effort, which is common when trying to solve noise problems.

I'd put a digital storage oscilloscope on the encoder signals and watch 
them while turning the coolant pump VFD on and off.  I'd also watch the 
power lines on both sides of the coolant pump VFD EMI filter while 
turning the VFD on and off.  If you don't have a DSO, an analog scope 
will work too.  It's very difficult to fight a monster that you can't see.

If your encoder cables are not shielded, I'd replace them with shielded 
cables regardless of whether that cures this problem.  It's just the 
right thing to do.  Ditto with the spindle motor power cable and the 
coolant pump motor cable.  The shields should all terminate at the same 
grounding lug in the electrical panel (star configuration) that's 
connected to an earth ground, although some people have a power panel 
and an electrical panel and each has its own common grounding lug.

The simplest solution might be to upgrade the coolant pump VFD to 
something less noisy.

I've been using the Huanyang VFDs for some of my CNC projects, and 
they're very noisy.  So far, my biggest problem has been noise on the 
VGA monitor.  I wish I had HDMI video.



On 01/22/2016 12:51 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders.
> I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1
> VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not
> running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains
> correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get
> false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This
> problem showed up immediately after I retrofitted the machine this last
> summer. I have just now been able to diagnose where the issue is
> originating.
>
> In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
>   Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant and
> spindle vfds.
>   worked on ground system to try to isolate the noise.
>   rerouted the coolant pump motor power cable completely away from
> any other cables and completely away from the machine.
>
> All of these things have failed to improve the noise issue.
>
> I also tried the following to try and diagnose the issue. I disconnected
> the coolant pump motor cable from the coolant pump vfd. Disconnected the
> spindle motor from the spindle vfd. Connected the coolant pump to the
> spindle vfd. Note that the spindle vfd is a 3.0hp Automation direct GS2
> drive.
>
> When I did this and ran the coolant pump via the spindle vfd there was
> no noise on the encoders.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas 

Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[John Thornton]

I also forgot to tell you about this wiring guide.

http://mesaus.com/downloads/best_practices.php

On 1/22/2016 11:51 AM, Jim Craig wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders.
> I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1
> VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not
> running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains
> correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get
> false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This
> problem showed up immediately after I retrofitted the machine this last
> summer. I have just now been able to diagnose where the issue is
> originating.
>
> In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
>   Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant and
> spindle vfds.
>   worked on ground system to try to isolate the noise.
>   rerouted the coolant pump motor power cable completely away from
> any other cables and completely away from the machine.
>
> All of these things have failed to improve the noise issue.
>
> I also tried the following to try and diagnose the issue. I disconnected
> the coolant pump motor cable from the coolant pump vfd. Disconnected the
> spindle motor from the spindle vfd. Connected the coolant pump to the
> spindle vfd. Note that the spindle vfd is a 3.0hp Automation direct GS2
> drive.
>
> When I did this and ran the coolant pump via the spindle vfd there was
> no noise on the encoders.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas on how to get rid of this issue.  I really
> want to make some parts but I can't with the noise issue.
>
> I talked to a EE buddy of mine and he mentioned running both motors
> (spindle and coolant pump) off the same 3.0hp GS2 drive just to get me
> going. What do you think about this? Will running two different sized
> motors on the same VFD cause any issue. Right now I don't run my spindle
> in reverse so I would not have any trouble with the coolant pump running
> backwards.
>
> I talked to Automation Direct and they said that the GS1 is more prone
> to noise than the GS2. I am contemplating getting a 1/2hp GS2 to replace
> the GS1.
>
> So frustrated right now.
>
> Let me know if you have any ideas.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
> --
> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[John Thornton]

Often a small 3 phase motor will run fine on single phase, you might put 
a run cap between the phase to balance it like a RPC does. If it will 
start on single phase it will run. If it won't start then a start cap 
would be needed.

http://gnipsel.com/shop/rpc/rpc.xhtml

I don't see a problem running a fractional and your spindle off the GS2.

JT

On 1/22/2016 11:51 AM, Jim Craig wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders.
> I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1
> VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not
> running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains
> correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get
> false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This
> problem showed up immediately after I retrofitted the machine this last
> summer. I have just now been able to diagnose where the issue is
> originating.
>
> In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
>   Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant and
> spindle vfds.
>   worked on ground system to try to isolate the noise.
>   rerouted the coolant pump motor power cable completely away from
> any other cables and completely away from the machine.
>
> All of these things have failed to improve the noise issue.
>
> I also tried the following to try and diagnose the issue. I disconnected
> the coolant pump motor cable from the coolant pump vfd. Disconnected the
> spindle motor from the spindle vfd. Connected the coolant pump to the
> spindle vfd. Note that the spindle vfd is a 3.0hp Automation direct GS2
> drive.
>
> When I did this and ran the coolant pump via the spindle vfd there was
> no noise on the encoders.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas on how to get rid of this issue.  I really
> want to make some parts but I can't with the noise issue.
>
> I talked to a EE buddy of mine and he mentioned running both motors
> (spindle and coolant pump) off the same 3.0hp GS2 drive just to get me
> going. What do you think about this? Will running two different sized
> motors on the same VFD cause any issue. Right now I don't run my spindle
> in reverse so I would not have any trouble with the coolant pump running
> backwards.
>
> I talked to Automation Direct and they said that the GS1 is more prone
> to noise than the GS2. I am contemplating getting a 1/2hp GS2 to replace
> the GS1.
>
> So frustrated right now.
>
> Let me know if you have any ideas.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[andy pugh]

On 22 January 2016 at 18:13, John Thornton  wrote:
> Often a small 3 phase motor will run fine on single phase, you might put
> a run cap between the phase to balance it like a RPC does.

Good point.

I have been running my coolant pumps this way for years.
The blue motor-run capacitor here:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QMMf_e2UZSM/VeNhQ7KwEbI/FdM/h2HhCrIBBa0/s1600/IMG_2095.jpg
makes enough of a third-phase to run the coolant pump just fine.
I think that is 3uF but they are cheap enough to experiment to find
the one that gives a reasonably balanced extra leg on your system.

This is 1) Cheap and 2) Won't create any HF noise.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[andy pugh]

On 22 January 2016 at 22:23, Jim Craig  wrote:

> Anyway after all of this the noise is still present when running the GS1
> drive for the coolant pump. I think I will try to source a run capacitor
> and switch back to a contactor for start stop on the coolant pump.

As you are effectively switching single-phase at that point, you can
do it with a cheap SSR instead of a contactor, if you prefer to.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[John Figie]

Just adding a filter may not help unless you add it correctly.  My
recommendation is that you follow the best practices guide referenced by
John Thornton.
On Jan 22, 2016 3:56 PM, "Dave Cole"  wrote:

> Are you using decent filters??
>
> GS1 and GS2 drives tend to pump a lot of RF noise up the power supply line.
> I've used the AD filters with good success.   I think the one I used was
> about $80.
> If you are using cheap Ebay filters  sometimes you get what you pay
> for.
>
> Have you put a scope on your AC lines to see if the filters are
> effective??  I suspect they are not.
> Re-routing your drive to motor leads is also sometimes effective.   Keep
> them as far away from low voltage wiring as possible.
>
> Dave
>
> On 1/22/2016 12:51 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders.
> > I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1
> > VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not
> > running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains
> > correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get
> > false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This
> > problem showed up immediately after I retrofitted the machine this last
> > summer. I have just now been able to diagnose where the issue is
> > originating.
> >
> > In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
> >   Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant and
> > spindle vfds.
> >   worked on ground system to try to isolate the noise.
> >   rerouted the coolant pump motor power cable completely away from
> > any other cables and completely away from the machine.
> >
> > All of these things have failed to improve the noise issue.
> >
> > I also tried the following to try and diagnose the issue. I disconnected
> > the coolant pump motor cable from the coolant pump vfd. Disconnected the
> > spindle motor from the spindle vfd. Connected the coolant pump to the
> > spindle vfd. Note that the spindle vfd is a 3.0hp Automation direct GS2
> > drive.
> >
> > When I did this and ran the coolant pump via the spindle vfd there was
> > no noise on the encoders.
> >
> > Does anyone have any ideas on how to get rid of this issue.  I really
> > want to make some parts but I can't with the noise issue.
> >
> > I talked to a EE buddy of mine and he mentioned running both motors
> > (spindle and coolant pump) off the same 3.0hp GS2 drive just to get me
> > going. What do you think about this? Will running two different sized
> > motors on the same VFD cause any issue. Right now I don't run my spindle
> > in reverse so I would not have any trouble with the coolant pump running
> > backwards.
> >
> > I talked to Automation Direct and they said that the GS1 is more prone
> > to noise than the GS2. I am contemplating getting a 1/2hp GS2 to replace
> > the GS1.
> >
> > So frustrated right now.
> >
> > Let me know if you have any ideas.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> --
> > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Jim Craig]

I spent all afternoon looking for and trying to remove ground loops. I 
think I found all that I can eliminate. I have a couple minor ones due 
to the mounting of my PC motherboard/SSD that I don't think I can remove 
without making new mounting fixtures.

I did find one that I was sure was going to fix the issue. My encoder 
breakout board that converts the honda connectors to RJ45 connectors had 
the power ground going to chassis ground due to the mounting bolts. I 
fixed that and removed that ground loop. I was sure that would fix the 
issue but it did not.

Also the shields on the servo motor power cables are grounded at both 
ends in the motor and at the drive side. I disconnected the drive side. 
I am not sure if this is a good idea or not as It could pose a safety 
hazard.

And for everyone's information the encoder cables are shielded, shields 
grounded at the control board only, the signals are differential and I 
am STILL having this issue.

Anyway after all of this the noise is still present when running the GS1 
drive for the coolant pump. I think I will try to source a run capacitor 
and switch back to a contactor for start stop on the coolant pump.

The filter that I am using on the GS1 drive is a Tyco Corcom 5VB1. I 
don't have an operating scope to look at the noise on the lines.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Should have listened to Andy 6 months 
ago and went with the run capacitor then! ; ) : (

Jim

On 1/22/2016 3:52 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Are you using decent filters??
>
> GS1 and GS2 drives tend to pump a lot of RF noise up the power supply line.
> I've used the AD filters with good success.   I think the one I used was
> about $80.
> If you are using cheap Ebay filters  sometimes you get what you pay for.
>
> Have you put a scope on your AC lines to see if the filters are
> effective??  I suspect they are not.
> Re-routing your drive to motor leads is also sometimes effective.   Keep
> them as far away from low voltage wiring as possible.
>
> Dave
>
> On 1/22/2016 12:51 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders.
>> I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1
>> VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not
>> running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains
>> correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get
>> false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This
>> problem showed up immediately after I retrofitted the machine this last
>> summer. I have just now been able to diagnose where the issue is
>> originating.
>>
>> In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
>>Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant and
>> spindle vfds.
>>worked on ground system to try to isolate the noise.
>>rerouted the coolant pump motor power cable completely away from
>> any other cables and completely away from the machine.
>>
>> All of these things have failed to improve the noise issue.
>>
>> I also tried the following to try and diagnose the issue. I disconnected
>> the coolant pump motor cable from the coolant pump vfd. Disconnected the
>> spindle motor from the spindle vfd. Connected the coolant pump to the
>> spindle vfd. Note that the spindle vfd is a 3.0hp Automation direct GS2
>> drive.
>>
>> When I did this and ran the coolant pump via the spindle vfd there was
>> no noise on the encoders.
>>
>> Does anyone have any ideas on how to get rid of this issue.  I really
>> want to make some parts but I can't with the noise issue.
>>
>> I talked to a EE buddy of mine and he mentioned running both motors
>> (spindle and coolant pump) off the same 3.0hp GS2 drive just to get me
>> going. What do you think about this? Will running two different sized
>> motors on the same VFD cause any issue. Right now I don't run my spindle
>> in reverse so I would not have any trouble with the coolant pump running
>> backwards.
>>
>> I talked to Automation Direct and they said that the GS1 is more prone
>> to noise than the GS2. I am contemplating getting a 1/2hp GS2 to replace
>> the GS1.
>>
>> So frustrated right now.
>>
>> Let me know if you have any ideas.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jim
>>
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[Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Jim Craig]

Hey all,

I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders. 
I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1 
VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not 
running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains 
correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get 
false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This 
problem showed up immediately after I retrofitted the machine this last 
summer. I have just now been able to diagnose where the issue is 
originating.

In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
 Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant and 
spindle vfds.
 worked on ground system to try to isolate the noise.
 rerouted the coolant pump motor power cable completely away from 
any other cables and completely away from the machine.

All of these things have failed to improve the noise issue.

I also tried the following to try and diagnose the issue. I disconnected 
the coolant pump motor cable from the coolant pump vfd. Disconnected the 
spindle motor from the spindle vfd. Connected the coolant pump to the 
spindle vfd. Note that the spindle vfd is a 3.0hp Automation direct GS2 
drive.

When I did this and ran the coolant pump via the spindle vfd there was 
no noise on the encoders.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get rid of this issue.  I really 
want to make some parts but I can't with the noise issue.

I talked to a EE buddy of mine and he mentioned running both motors 
(spindle and coolant pump) off the same 3.0hp GS2 drive just to get me 
going. What do you think about this? Will running two different sized 
motors on the same VFD cause any issue. Right now I don't run my spindle 
in reverse so I would not have any trouble with the coolant pump running 
backwards.

I talked to Automation Direct and they said that the GS1 is more prone 
to noise than the GS2. I am contemplating getting a 1/2hp GS2 to replace 
the GS1.

So frustrated right now.

Let me know if you have any ideas.

Thanks,

Jim

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[Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Mike Cinquino]

Hello,

I have 3 axis machine I am working on that has a Teco FM50-202-C drive to
control the spindle. The drive is a 220V drive. I am using single phase
into the drive. 2 HP 3 phase spindle motor. My plan is to use an arduino to
control a few accessories on the machine. Noise from the drive is locking
the arduino up. I am using a 12v switching power supply to power the
arduino. The drive and arduino are in the same electrical box right now. I
am thinking of removing the drive and placing it in it's own box. I have
checked all my grounds and they seem ok. Has anyone seen this before? I
know VFD's are noisy devices. Looking for any advice to quickly eliminate
the problem.

Thanks,
Mike
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Dave Caroline]

never run cables close together, they will inductively or capacitively
couple noise
screening helps metal cases around subcircuits and screened cables
with correct earthing
use a real scope to view the noise
avoid common mode currents (multiple grounds can cause this)
use better power supply filtering

Dave Caroline


On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Mike Cinquino mcinqu...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello,

 I have 3 axis machine I am working on that has a Teco FM50-202-C drive to
 control the spindle. The drive is a 220V drive. I am using single phase
 into the drive. 2 HP 3 phase spindle motor. My plan is to use an arduino to
 control a few accessories on the machine. Noise from the drive is locking
 the arduino up. I am using a 12v switching power supply to power the
 arduino. The drive and arduino are in the same electrical box right now. I
 am thinking of removing the drive and placing it in it's own box. I have
 checked all my grounds and they seem ok. Has anyone seen this before? I
 know VFD's are noisy devices. Looking for any advice to quickly eliminate
 the problem.

 Thanks,
 Mike
 --
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Erik Christiansen]

On 21.01.13 04:21, Mike Cinquino wrote:
 The drive and arduino are in the same electrical box right now. I
 am thinking of removing the drive and placing it in it's own box.

Yup, given that the drive is proving noisy:

a) A separate metal enclosure for any electronics, including the arduino.
   (Steel if there's a strong magnetic component in the interference,
   else aluminium will do.)
b) A mains noise filter on the input of the 12v SMPS powering the arduino.
   (They're little metal boxes with a couple of inductors  capacitors,
   available from electronics suppliers, or a hoarder's junkbox.)
c) Shielded cables for everything running in and out of the electronics
   enclosure, to avoid conducting or radiating picked up interference.
d) More power supply bypass capacitors on the +5v, and on the +12v, can
   add some extra noise suppression, for safety, but the interference
   should be eliminated at source or at least be denied entry to the
   electronics.

If that doesn't do it, then it's time to get serious, and opto-isolate
anything coming from the LinuxCNC box, so there is no common earth with
the drive.

 I have checked all my grounds and they seem ok. Has anyone seen this
 before?

Yep, it comes up now and then on the list, so there's some good advice
in the archive, if you can find it. There's sure to be more good ideas
on this thread before long.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[andy pugh]

On 21 January 2013 09:21, Mike Cinquino mcinqu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Has anyone seen this before? I
 know VFD's are noisy devices. Looking for any advice to quickly eliminate
 the problem.

You probably need an input filter on the VFD. They appear to send
noise back down the power supply cables.
Something like:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170127787597
(RASMI may be a good search term)

A common-mode ferrite ring on the motor cables (at the drive end) is
also a good idea, but I think that the input filter is the big-hitter.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Mike Cinquino]

Thank you, all the suggestions are good advice. I will attempt as many as I
can to get the problem solved starting with a enclosure just for the VFD.
This will also allow me to isolate the 220v. The main control box can all
be powered with 110v.

Are VFD's less noisy if they are fed 3 phase? I would think they might be
because of the switching needed to generate the 3rd phase if only fed
single phase?

Thanks,
Mike
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Dave Caroline]

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Mike Cinquino mcinqu...@gmail.com wrote:
 Thank you, all the suggestions are good advice. I will attempt as many as I
 can to get the problem solved starting with a enclosure just for the VFD.
 This will also allow me to isolate the 220v. The main control box can all
 be powered with 110v.

 Are VFD's less noisy if they are fed 3 phase? I would think they might be
 because of the switching needed to generate the 3rd phase if only fed
 single phase?

I doubt it as the noise is from the recreation of the output sine wave
while only a part is from the input rectifiers
I would also recommend adding an input filter to the vfd

Dave Caroline


 Thanks,
 Mike
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[TJoseph Powderly]

On 01/21/2013 03:02 PM, Clint Washburn wrote:
 Can single phase be used on a three phase filter?  The reason I ask is 
 because I am rebuilding my lathe so it can be used on both single and three 
 phase.

 Thanks,
 Clint Washburn


 On Jan 21, 2013, at 2:37 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 21 January 2013 09:21, Mike Cinquino mcinqu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Has anyone seen this before? I
 know VFD's are noisy devices. Looking for any advice to quickly eliminate
 the problem.
 You probably need an input filter on the VFD. They appear to send
 noise back down the power supply cables.
 Something like:
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170127787597
 (RASMI may be a good search term)

 A common-mode ferrite ring on the motor cables (at the drive end) is
 also a good idea, but I think that the input filter is the big-hitter.

 -- 
 atp
 If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
 http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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not sure if you canuse 3ph filter with just 1
but am sure
i used 3 pcs of 1 phase Cor-Com (tm)  on 3 ph equipments a lot
so, this scheme should help your needs
regards
tomp

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