Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[gene heskett]

On Thursday, January 19, 2012 01:35:29 AM Erik Christiansen did opine:

> On 18.01.12 10:01, gene heskett wrote:
> > I was under the impression that there was a hidden linkage
> > between the schematic and the footprint.
> 
> The hidden linkage is the pin mapping in the package. The package
> automatically appears in the board view when the symbol is placed in the
> schematic. There is no pin location information visible in the symbol.
> 
> ...
> 
> > What I am mentally missing is the linkage between the schematic, and
> > the terminals of the packages footprint which carry no labels, since
> > in this application, the mechanical location of the device on the
> > board is very important.
> 
> A boots-first approach works well here, since the schematic and layout
> contain no magic smoke. If you just whack all your components into the
> schematic, _and_wire_them_up_, then little yellow "air wires" will
> appear between the package pins on the board. (Again, the board is only
> one mouse click away when you're in the schematic editor, so flipping
> back and forth, as you muck with both, is trivial.
> 
> Those "air wires" allow you to verify which pin is connected where,
> thereby confirming the correlation with the symbol, by simple
> observation.
> 
> In the future, if there's so much on the board that picking the right
> wire is problematic, then try using the "i" Info tool in the schematic.
> Click it on the desired wire. (The right hand wire in yesterday's demo
> schematic shows as "N$1") Click the "Board" icon on the horizontal
> toolbar, and you flick to the board layout. Select "i" there also, and
> click on either of the two "air wires", to positively identify the
> connection. Now we can't go wrong, at least not without a supreme
> effort. ;-)
> ...
> 
> > But today I have a termite company installing new, kill em all, baits.
> > That is something else WV apparently has a surplus of, termites, in 22
> > years this will be the 3rd attempt to nuke them.
> > 
> > Thanks Erik.
> 
> No worries. :-)
> 
And I didn't get back to it today.  After they got done planting traps I 
went to get one of my BP rifles I had sent back as the barrel was damaged 
and I was having trouble hitting the same wall of the barn I had aimed at 
while I was inside the barn.

This was about a 5 year old TC Omega 50 cal.  And it blew me away when it 
came back no charge, I was expecting about a $400 bill for a fresh SS 
barrel and would have dropped the card in a heartbeat. Thompson Center, now 
a part of Smith & Wesson, really does stand behind their stuff, even if it 
was the idiot owner that mucked it up, which it was 100% my fault.  That 
says a lot to me.

Now I need some decent weather for a trip to the range, I need some trigger 
time. ;-)

> I should really renew my termite defences too. It's a bit late once
> they're in.
> 
> Erik


Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Got Mole problems?  Call Avogadro at 6.02 x 10^23.

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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Erik Christiansen]

On 18.01.12 10:01, gene heskett wrote:
> I was under the impression that there was a hidden linkage 
> between the schematic and the footprint.

The hidden linkage is the pin mapping in the package. The package 
automatically appears in the board view when the symbol is placed in the
schematic. There is no pin location information visible in the symbol.

...

> What I am mentally missing is the linkage between the schematic, and
> the terminals of the packages footprint which carry no labels, since
> in this application, the mechanical location of the device on the
> board is very important. 

A boots-first approach works well here, since the schematic and layout
contain no magic smoke. If you just whack all your components into the
schematic, _and_wire_them_up_, then little yellow "air wires" will appear
between the package pins on the board. (Again, the board is only one
mouse click away when you're in the schematic editor, so flipping back
and forth, as you muck with both, is trivial.

Those "air wires" allow you to verify which pin is connected where,
thereby confirming the correlation with the symbol, by simple
observation.

In the future, if there's so much on the board that picking the right
wire is problematic, then try using the "i" Info tool in the schematic.
Click it on the desired wire. (The right hand wire in yesterday's demo
schematic shows as "N$1") Click the "Board" icon on the horizontal
toolbar, and you flick to the board layout. Select "i" there also, and
click on either of the two "air wires", to positively identify the
connection. Now we can't go wrong, at least not without a supreme
effort. ;-)
...

> But today I have a termite company installing new, kill em all, baits.  
> That is something else WV apparently has a surplus of, termites, in 22 
> years this will be the 3rd attempt to nuke them.
> 
> Thanks Erik.

No worries. :-)

I should really renew my termite defences too. It's a bit late once
they're in.

Erik

-- 
Jon Wynne-tyson: The wrong sort of people are always in power because if
they were not the wrong sort of people, they would not be in power.


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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:54:36 AM Ed Nisley did opine:

> On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 13:46 +1100, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> > Nope, to update the library info used in an open schematic editor, hit
> > Library->Update and select the modified library, or just use
> > Library->Update_All.
> 
> That's exactly what I expected to work, but it didn't:
> 
> http://softsolder.com/2011/11/13/emc2-logitech-gamepad-trigger-button-na
> me-change/
> 
> Of course, that involved a pin name change, rather than a footprint or
> wiring change, which may make all the difference.
> 
> Mutter...

Humm, I haven't tried mine for a while either, having found it difficult, 
even with wide dead bands, to make a straight line move with my Saitek 
version of that same game pad.  So I came to the conclusion that it was 
nice for bragging rights, but not for a real world use scenario.  I doubt I 
will ever try to resurrect it again.  I have some other joysticks that have 
an end of handle swing covering about a 3" square, but they are nothing but 
the pots & would need lots of electronics wrapped around them to function 
as USB joysticks. Shrug. :)

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Common sense is instinct, and enough of it is genius.
-- Josh Billings

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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:14:12 AM Ed Nisley did opine:

> On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 00:03 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > Alright, how about this one?
> 
> That'll work! [grin]
> 
> And who knows? My Larval Engineer may remember how to poke around inside
> the safety covers without dying, in some future day when they
> desperately need a fix right *now*...

Yes, not dying, that is the general idea, Ed.  I have slipped up a few 
times, & why I have lived to tell the tale is a bit of a mystery even to 
me.  The burns eventually healed, but the month long bout with shingles the 
last instance triggered were NOT fun.  Between that, and Diabetes, my 
personal pain threshold seems to have been recalibrated dangerously high.

Another time I was attempting to tune something and kept getting a heck of 
a good tingle out of a supposedly plastic tuning tool, so much so that I 
went back and checked the pocket protector bag they came in from GC.  It 
had a claim they were anti-static, conductive IOW.  Duh. Beware of black 
diddle sticks around the higher voltages, they can bite you.  In fact, you 
should forward this to her as a warning.

How is she doing in school?  Well I hope.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Show your affection, which will probably meet with pleasant response.

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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Dennis J. Murray]

I really enjoy Gene's war stories!!  I, too am a (relatively) old 
codger, but still young at heart.

At the risk of being too far off topic, I'd like to add one more war 
story to Gene's list.

Back in the early 60's, I had a 2-way radio repair and maintenance 
business.  Remember, you youngsters, back then almost everything was 
vacuum tube based.  An oil company I supported had a problem with their 
dispatch transceiver - after it got warm (it was on 24/7), the 
receiver's output became so garbled, they couldn't understand what was 
being said.  They could transmit OK, which made the audio final stages 
less suspect since, in this design, they were shared between transmitter 
and receiver.

Within a minute or two after opening the case, the problem would clear 
up because the internal heat would dissipate.  Using an audio probe, I 
searched everywhere for the problem, but couldn't narrow it down in the 
time it took for the problem to miraculously go away!  I worked on that 
thing for a week, replacing filter caps, coupling caps, tubes, etc. 
trying to fix the darn thing.  Nothing!!  Then, in desperation, I 
plugged in an external speaker to be able to listen to it while I 
jury-rigged a heat enclosure to keep everything hot while I ran down the 
problem.  Viola!!  CLEAR AS A BELL!!!  It was a faulty speaker!  Out of 
curiosity, I tore the speaker apart and it turned out that the voice 
coil would warp when it got warm and rub against the side of the magnet, 
causing the distortion.  You could see the rub marks on the magnet where 
the voice coil rubbed.

The end of the story is that the customer got charged for a new speaker 
and the labor to replace it, while I ate the difference in actual time 
spent!  Part of doing business - and customers wonder why labor charges 
are so high!

I learned a valuable lesson - and that was to always start with the 
obvious and easiest to check before heading to the more subtle causes!!

IN 1964, I took my first job in computer programming and stuck to it for 
the rest of my 36 year career - and that lesson served me just as well 
there (if not more so) as it did in electronics.

Keep on with the war stories, Gene - they bring back long-forgotten 
memories!!

Dennis

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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 09:18:27 AM Erik Christiansen did opine:

> On 18.01.12 00:59, gene heskett wrote:
> > Well, the only marks on the package show on top of it and they are
> > confusing.  On about a 20x blowup of the pdf'd brochures page showing
> > the pin names, it looks like this for a bottom view.
> > 
> > led end   sensor end
> > 
> > |---|
> > |
> > | K .  .vcc |
> > |   
> > |   0.vo0   |
> > |   
> > | A .  .gnd |
> > |
> > |---|
> > 
> > And the footprint in the library has both + terminals on the same
> > side.
> 
> If that's the library which I posted, then that's a misinterpreation,
> AFAICT. Please remember that the schematic symbol conveys _no_ pin
> location information.
> 
Good in fact, I was under the impression that there was a hidden linkage 
between the schematic and the footprint.

> Gene, have you found this pinout issue in the board editor? (Click on
> the 5th icon in the horizontal toolbar near the top of the schematic
> editor) The library editor can also be used to check the physical
> pinout, but that's harder to explain when you can't see my hand-waving.
> 
> I'll attach a board and a schematic file which demonstrate that the
> anode and vcc pins are in fact on opposite sides of the package. If you
> copy the files into a separate new project, open the schematic, and say
> yes to opening the board, the latter reveals the physical relationship
> of these pins. I've placed one device on the underside of the PCB, so we
> see a bottom view of the pins for that device.

This is what I saw too.  What I am mentally missing is the linkage between 
the schematic, and the terminals of the packages footprint which carry no 
labels, since in this application, the mechanical location of the device on 
the board is very important.  After a lot of slogging around the encoder 
wheel with the calipers, and arrived at an ideal spacing between the 
individual devices of nominally .340" so the devices are effectively 
looking at every third hole in the disk.  This should get me in the 
ballpark, and with 4-40 bolts to mount them being a little sloppy, and with 
just a somewhat oversized (1/8" hole in the pcb for the leads to be able to 
move a few thou when I loosen the bolts and pry one way or the other, I 
figure the timings of the AB outputs can be made pretty close to equal for 
all 4 phases.  IOW I won't drill for the individual lead, they will all 
come thru the same 1/8" hole & be bent over & soldered, probably with a "J" 
profile so the device can move a few thou for pulse timing equality.  I do 
have a bit of room to do the lead forming on the solder side, perhaps 3/8", 
but I had planned on putting the leds current limiter R, about 120-150 
ohms, in the area between the led's "towers" as there is clearance between 
the moving gears at that point of perhaps 3/8".  Use them for via's IOW.

Then, and this is something I have not asked about just yet, the index 
pulse can also be placed such that it occurs in an AB state that would 
allow the CW or CCW edge of that pulse to be detected so that there is not 
a 4 degree ambiguity in where the pulse is recognized when the direction is 
reversed.  In this case, it is not the pulse polarity that would be 
important, but the edge detection only being active if the correct AB state 
existed.  I haven't worked out the Karnaugh map of that yet, and the docs 
in the integrator manual are not that specific.  Probably not a show 
stopper since in reverse it is very unlikely any cutting will be done, 
but...

> > And its this ambiguity in the docs on this stuff that cost me the last
> > 3 of a different type device about 18 months go when I was gung ho to
> > do this then, and it all smoked in about 10 milliseconds when I
> > applied 5 volts.
> 
> Yeah, this one lets the magic smoke out at reverse bias of only 3v on
> the LED.

Yup, about $25 worth.  :(
 
> If my interpretation of the Honeywell datasheet was wrong, it'll take me
> less than a minute to swap pins.

Probably not wrong, if in making the .brd, I can 'wire' it like its 
supposed to be.  That I haven't tried yet.
 
> It took me a while to get the hang of eagle. Each of these apps needs a
> realignment of thinking, before it's straightforward.

Understatement of the month.  ;-)

I think I am making progress, but have not attempted to convert the 
schematic to a .brd yet.  I wanted to make sure I didn't do the smoke 
release a second time, and if there is not a hidden linkage between the 
schematic and the mechanical .brd image, I'll read and proceed.

But today I have a termite company installing new, kill em all, baits.  
That is something else WV apparently has a surplus of, termites, in 22 
years this will be the 3rd attempt to nuke them.

Thanks Erik.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Pl

Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Eric Keller]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:47 PM, gene heskett  wrote:

> Greets all;
>
> Going thru the docs for eagle, in this case following the tutorial_en.pdf,
>

This has been bothering me for a while, and I doubt I'm the only one.   You
ask a lot of  non-emc specific questions  on the emc list.  I suppose it's
too much to ask that you find more appropriate forums for these questions,
but at a minimum, it would be nice if you would put "OT" in the title of
such emails.
Eric
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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Erik Christiansen]

On 18.01.12 07:54, Ed Nisley wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 13:46 +1100, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> > Nope, to update the library info used in an open schematic editor, hit
> > Library->Update and select the modified library, or just use
> > Library->Update_All. 
> 
> That's exactly what I expected to work, but it didn't:
> 
> http://softsolder.com/2011/11/13/emc2-logitech-gamepad-trigger-button-name-change/
> 
> Of course, that involved a pin name change, rather than a footprint or
> wiring change, which may make all the difference.
> 
> Mutter...

 ... mumble and gnash teeth in frustration. :-)

Yes, it does make all the difference, AIUI.

The pin name change on the library component is going to muck up
the netlist for that circuit track, causing a dummy spit when the
library is updated, because there's nowhere to connect the old name,
still in the netlist. Deleting the green "wire" connection to the
renamed pin, in the schematic, will remove the old name from the
netlist. Replacing the wire adds the new name to the netlist. Job done.

To dodge Murphy, I'd prefer to do the disconnection of the offending pin
prior to clicking Library->Update, so there's no trace of the old name in
any netlist when the update is done.

Granted, if there's only one or two instances of the component on which
the pin name has changed, then component deletion and replacement
(instead of the wire) is another way to update the netlist. 

However, if we have to change the physical pinout on Gene's
opto-interrupter, using the library editor's "Connect" dialogue, then
Library->Update is all that is needed, because the netlists are
unchanged. If the board has been laid out before the pinout is changed,
then the last track segments to those pins revert to "air-wires" IIRC,
and you just go in and run them to the new pinout.

Well, the above is as near as I can tell from going a few rounds now and
then with the application.

Erik

-- 
Wizards had always known that the act of observation changed the thing that
was observed, and sometimes forgot that it also changed the observer too.
   Terry Pratchett  -  Interesting times


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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Ed Nisley]

On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 13:46 +1100, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> Nope, to update the library info used in an open schematic editor, hit
> Library->Update and select the modified library, or just use
> Library->Update_All. 

That's exactly what I expected to work, but it didn't:

http://softsolder.com/2011/11/13/emc2-logitech-gamepad-trigger-button-name-change/

Of course, that involved a pin name change, rather than a footprint or
wiring change, which may make all the difference.

Mutter...

-- 
Ed
http://softsolder.com



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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Ed Nisley]

On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 00:03 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> Alright, how about this one?

That'll work! [grin]

And who knows? My Larval Engineer may remember how to poke around inside
the safety covers without dying, in some future day when they
desperately need a fix right *now*...

-- 
Ed
http://softsolder.com



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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Mark Wendt]

On 01/17/2012 09:46 PM, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 17.01.12 20:30, gene heskett wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 07:15:33 PM Fox Mulder did opine:
>>  
>>> Am 17.01.2012 21:47, schrieb gene heskett:
>>>
 Checking requirements, I see that libpng14.so.14 is required so
 you helped me build a script: gene@shop:/opt/eagle-6.1.0$ cat
 bin/eagle LD_LIBRARY_PATH="$(dirname "$0")" "$(dirname "$0")/eagle.orig" $@
  
> That's a good way to do it if you want to keep the .so with eagle.
> Another way is to drop a copy of it into /lib, and then run ldconfig,
> to update the cache for ld.so, so it can find it without further ado.
> A third way is to leave the .so in its current odd spot, and just add
> the path to /etc/ld.so.conf before running ldconfig.
>
Or create an eagle file with the path in /etc/ld.so.conf.d and then run 
ldconfig.


>> Ah, now I see a totally different selection window. I left click on the +
>> sign of library you sent, and see the devices name.  Now I have managed to
>> get 3 copies of it planted on the schematic,
>>  
> If that's via the "Add" icon on the schematic editor, then you're cooking.
>
Tough for an old AutoCAD guy to get used to this.  ;-)
>
>
>> Probably tomorrow after I read for a couple hours.
>>  
> Yeah. And they claim GUIs are intuitive.
>
Ummm, yeah...


>
>> If I fix the library, will that fix the schematic when it is next
>> loaded?
>>  
> If the library has changed, then eagle usually warns on next startup,
> that schematic and/or board may be affected, and makes you click to
> confirm, IIRC.
>
> A Library->Update after editing the part naturally avoids such
> surprises.
>
> Erik
>
Thanks Eric!  I'm learning this by fumbling along with Gene.  He's got 
the books...  ;-)

Mark


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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Erik Christiansen]

On 18.01.12 00:59, gene heskett wrote:
> Well, the only marks on the package show on top of it and they are 
> confusing.  On about a 20x blowup of the pdf'd brochures page showing the 
> pin names, it looks like this for a bottom view.
> 
> led end   sensor end
> |---|
> | K .  .vcc |
> |   0.vo0   |
> | A .  .gnd |
> |---|
> 
> And the footprint in the library has both + terminals on the same side.  

If that's the library which I posted, then that's a misinterpreation,
AFAICT. Please remember that the schematic symbol conveys _no_ pin
location information.

Gene, have you found this pinout issue in the board editor? (Click on
the 5th icon in the horizontal toolbar near the top of the schematic
editor) The library editor can also be used to check the physical
pinout, but that's harder to explain when you can't see my hand-waving.

I'll attach a board and a schematic file which demonstrate that the
anode and vcc pins are in fact on opposite sides of the package. If you
copy the files into a separate new project, open the schematic, and say
yes to opening the board, the latter reveals the physical relationship
of these pins. I've placed one device on the underside of the PCB, so we
see a bottom view of the pins for that device.

> And its this ambiguity in the docs on this stuff that cost me the last 3 of 
> a different type device about 18 months go when I was gung ho to do this 
> then, and it all smoked in about 10 milliseconds when I applied 5 volts.

Yeah, this one lets the magic smoke out at reverse bias of only 3v on
the LED.

If my interpretation of the Honeywell datasheet was wrong, it'll take me
less than a minute to swap pins.

It took me a while to get the hang of eagle. Each of these apps needs a
realignment of thinking, before it's straightforward. 

Erik

-- 
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a
very narrow field.- Niels Bohr



untitled.brd
Description: Binary data


untitled.sch
Description: Binary data
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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 12:25:34 AM Greg Bernard did opine:

> Gene-
> When you say the pin asssingments are incorrect are you referring to the
> schematic symbol or the footprint? Quite often the locations of pins on
> the schematic do not match the physical locations on the component. I
> assume this is done for convenience in drawing the schematic. What
> matters is if the pin numbers are correct. The footprint of the
> component that appears in the brd drawing is where you need to look for
> correct location of pins. I'm  only about a half-dozen circuits into
> learning Eagle and I can tell you that a lot of the counter-intuitive
> details will soon make sense. When I first started with Eagle I ran
> away from it and tried a couple of the alternatives but found them no
> easier. The great thing about Eagle is it's nearly universal in the
> hobbyist world which makes it easy to use OP's circuits and libraries.
> By the way, another source of useful libraries are the Sparkfun and
> Adafruit websites. These are smaller libraries more attuned to the
> components we are likely to use and can save a lot of searching through
> the vast and confusing library that comes with Eagle.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> -Greg
> 
Well, the only marks on the package show on top of it and they are 
confusing.  On about a 20x blowup of the pdf'd brochures page showing the 
pin names, it looks like this for a bottom view.

led end   sensor end
|---|
| K .  .vcc |
|   0.vo0   |
| A .  .gnd |
|---|

And the footprint in the library has both + terminals on the same side.  

And its this ambiguity in the docs on this stuff that cost me the last 3 of 
a different type device about 18 months go when I was gung ho to do this 
then, and it all smoked in about 10 milliseconds when I applied 5 volts.

The markings on the tops of the towers are of zero utility other than being 
marked with a + sign on opposite corners, and I presume the 3 or E on one 
end is the emitter end, and the 5 or S on the other towers top means 
sensor, it has 3 leads out the bottom at least.  And that also corresponds 
with the rest of the outline drawings supplied with the HoneyWell HAO2001 
slot sensor.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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My web page: 
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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 12:05:26 AM Erik Christiansen did opine:

> On 17.01.12 20:30, gene heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 07:15:33 PM Fox Mulder did opine:
> > > Am 17.01.2012 21:47, schrieb gene heskett:
> > > > Checking requirements, I see that libpng14.so.14 is required so
> > > > you helped me build a script: gene@shop:/opt/eagle-6.1.0$ cat
> > > > bin/eagle LD_LIBRARY_PATH="$(dirname "$0")" "$(dirname
> > > > "$0")/eagle.orig" $@
> 
> That's a good way to do it if you want to keep the .so with eagle.
> Another way is to drop a copy of it into /lib, and then run ldconfig,
> to update the cache for ld.so, so it can find it without further ado.

I did consider that, but thought better of it.

> A third way is to leave the .so in its current odd spot, and just add
> the path to /etc/ld.so.conf before running ldconfig.

I also considered that.
 
> > > > It doesn't complain about a missing library so I assume that is
> > > > working, but for a universal launcher, should I not have a
> > > > /usr/bin bash script that first does a cd to /opt/eagle-6.1.0/ in
> > > > order to setup the pwd, and then do a 'bin/eagle'?  In any event,
> > > > it seems to work.
> 
> Then it's fine. Setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH is an entirely acceptable way to
> get by, even if it can be done without a script. Those GUI configs you
> did (Options -> Directories?) allow eagle to find your projects, so
> there's no need for a cd.

Installing it on the system brings up the backward compat question.  This 
way isolates it, which is likely the more stable solution. 

> > Ah, now I see a totally different selection window. I left click on
> > the + sign of library you sent, and see the devices name.  Now I have
> > managed to get 3 copies of it planted on the schematic,
> 
> If that's via the "Add" icon on the schematic editor, then you're
> cooking.

Correct!
 
> > & a few wires drawn, at which point I note that pin assignments on the
> > device aren't exactly correct, and to match the device itself, I'll
> > have to swap one end of it or the other around as the GND's are on the
> > diagonal corners.  I'll need to think on which I swap that around as I
> > assume the xml part description in the library is where to fix it.
> 
> If the part is OK, but for the pinout, the easiest fix is to create a
> variant of the existing part, if you want to keep the original pinout as
> well. To avoid loss when updating the supplied libraries, and to keep
> customised stuff handy, it is good to copy the part over to your own
> library, and edit that, I think.

That's probably the best way to fix.  OTOH, I don't have a lot of time 
plonking down 3 copies of the thing, so if I toss it & start again, it is 
part of the learning process.  And one learns best by doing, reading isn't 
always the panacea the teachers claim it is.
 
> > Apparently not, the schematic doesn't change with the current contents
> > of the library.  Throw it out & start over.
> 
> Nope, to update the library info used in an open schematic editor, hit
> Library->Update and select the modified library, or just use
> Library->Update_All.
> 
> > Probably tomorrow after I read for a couple hours.
> 
> Yeah. And they claim GUIs are intuitive.
> 
Not so much at times. 
> ...
> 
> > > > But in eagle, I have yet to find that command line box talked
> > > > about in the tuts so I can't run the setup utility it talks about
> > > > in its install.html.
> 
> Any of eagle's commands can be run in that white strip at the top of the
> schematic editor's drawing area. There's a blinking cursor, inviting
> input.
 
That's IF you can get to the schematic editor.  That was my problem.

> > If I fix the library, will that fix the schematic when it is next
> > loaded?
> 
> If the library has changed, then eagle usually warns on next startup,
> that schematic and/or board may be affected, and makes you click to
> confirm, IIRC.
> 
> A Library->Update after editing the part naturally avoids such
> surprises.
> 
> Erik

Thanks Erik.

Cheers, Gene
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My web page: 
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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[gene heskett]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:34:41 PM Ed Nisley did opine:

> On Tue, 2012-01-17 at 20:30 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > If I fix the library,
> > will that fix the schematic when it is next loaded?
> 
> Nope, the schematic holds copies of all the components, so that you
> can't inadvertently wreck all your circuits with a single library
> change.
> 
> You must delete all instances of the old part from the schematic,
> refresh the library to get the new part, and then re-place all of them.
> 
> It's a pain, but it does make a certain kind of sense.
 
Yes, I have to agree.

> > those manuals were in my mailbox this evening.
> 
> Excellent! Now, keep telling the occasional war story...

Alright, how about this one?

Nearly 20 years ago, the transmitter took to throwing some black streaks in 
the picture, quite intermittently at first but gradually, over a period of 
6 months or so it got to the "we can't ignore it any longer" stage.  My 
operators had identified a spot on the front of the driver cubicle where 
they could occasionally whack with a foot or so of 2x4 & get it to stop, 
for a little while.  I took stuff apart, one stage and one night at a time 
looking for bad solder joints, re-soldered anything that even remotely 
looked guilty without bothering it a bit.  I finally did a no-no and 
removed a back window in the cubicle door, waited for it to get started, 
and took an electric fence fiberglass rod and started poking at anything I 
could touch from the windows access angle.

The driver cabinets 3rd of 4 stages was a pair of 4-1000's running push-
pull, driven by an 829-B also working push-pull that for bandwidth purposes 
has a swamping resistor network to load the circuit slightly, connected 
from one 4-1000's grid #1 to the other tubes grid, and all hidden in plain 
sight in a perforated box on the side of the cavity which seemed to be the 
most sensitive place to prod.  Checking the parts lists I saw they were 
fairly fancy 20 and 50 watt carbon film resistors, painted on ceramic tubes 
about 1/2 and 5/8" in diameter.  And hell to get to, lots of other power 
and rf plumbing in the way.  829-B's being about a 15 to 20 watt output 
tube, it had taken a few of them used up and 40 years to damaged those 
resistors.

Finally getting the cover clear, I found them mounted in big fuse clips, so 
I pried them out & put one in each pocket & headed for the bench where I 
had some higher powered test gear.  Even after all those years, the values 
were still visible and in fact neither one of them ever looked like they 
had been hot.  Grabbing an ohmmeter I checked from the lead sleeve to lead 
sleeve used as an end ferrule to a thin ring of gold plate that ran from 
under the sleeve to under the coating, which looked like bare, baked in 
place carbon, but which was apparently an insulation coating.  One of them 
was within 10% of the painted on value but the other measured anything from 
2 or 3 hundred percent higher all the way to open..  Bingo.  We had one of 
those old electric eye bridge indicating capacitor checkers, so I hooked 
its 0-600 volt leakage test probes up and the eye went nuts at 20 volts.  I 
turned off the lights and when my eyes became dark adjusted, I could see a 
faint arcing leaking thru the coating about 1/8" under that coating from 
the gold plated end band.

I came home to get one of my dremels with a couple of those grey rubber 
abrasive wheels and spent about 4 hours polishing that coating away all the 
way around that end of the resistor until I had continuity from the far end 
ferrule to the carbon film all the way around.  Then I painted about 3 
layers of nickle print on that area to reconnect the ferrule to the carbon 
film under the coating & let it dry for a while.  Then the resistance was 
within 10% of what was painted on it, so I carefully reinstalled it and got 
it on the air about 9 AM, lng night.  I put the window back in the next 
Friday night, my normal night to kick its tires.

Why didn't I just order new copies of one or both?  Real simple, the 
machinery that made those resistors at IRC was thrown in a ditch in FL in 
about 1970, a good many years before I called to check.  So they were 
rather effectively made out of our favorite material, pure unobtainium.  

You do what you have to do when its your responsibility to do so.  Any 
other Chief Engineer on this side of the planet would have told the owner 
the only cure was a new, $150k transmitter.

But I fix things.  It was still working ALMOST normally when we turned it 
off for the last time June 30, 2008.  The reason I say almost was that the 
last batch of 4 new 4-1000's tubes I had bought, came from an air force 
base in germany that had declared them surplus in 1996, new ones had been 
discontinued by Eimac 10+ years before that.  AFAIK, those were the last 4 
NOS tubes on the planet.  So I put in some powerstats so I could turn the 
heaters down about 20% when they were fresh & made those last 

Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Greg Bernard]

Gene-
When you say the pin asssingments are incorrect are you referring to the 
schematic symbol or the footprint? Quite often the locations of pins on the 
schematic do not match the physical locations on the component. I assume this 
is done for convenience in drawing the schematic. What matters is if the pin 
numbers are correct. The footprint of the component that appears in the brd 
drawing is where you need to look for correct location of pins. I'm  only about 
a half-dozen circuits into learning Eagle and I can tell you that a lot of the 
counter-intuitive details will soon make sense. When I first started with Eagle 
I ran away from it and tried a couple of the alternatives but found them no 
easier. The great thing about Eagle is it's nearly universal in the hobbyist 
world which makes it easy to use OP's circuits and libraries. By the way, 
another source of useful libraries are the Sparkfun and Adafruit websites. 
These are smaller libraries more attuned to
 the components we are likely to use and can save a lot of searching through 
the vast and confusing library that comes with Eagle.

Good luck!

-Greg




>
> From: gene heskett 
>To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:30 PM
>Subject: Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)
> 
>On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 07:15:33 PM Fox Mulder did opine:
>
>> Am 17.01.2012 21:47, schrieb gene heskett:
>> > Greets all;
>> > 
>> > Going thru the docs for eagle, in this case following the
>> > tutorial_en.pdf, resetting the directories to where they exist on
>> > that machine seems to stick over an exit and restart.  Checking
>> > requirements, I see that libpng14.so.14 is required so you helped me
>> > build a script:
>> > gene@shop:/opt/eagle-6.1.0$ cat bin/eagle
>> > LD_LIBRARY_PATH="$(dirname "$0")" "$(dirname "$0")/eagle.orig" $@
>> > 
>> > It doesn't complain about a missing library so I assume that is
>> > working, but for a universal launcher, should I not have a /usr/bin
>> > bash script that first does a cd to /opt/eagle-6.1.0/ in order to
>> > setup the pwd, and then do a 'bin/eagle'?  In any event, it seems to
>> > work.
>> > 
>> > I have eagle open and showing my project(empty of course) highlighted
>> > with a green indicator button dot in the left pane of the window.
>> > 
>> > Reading along in the tut and seeing a few things as I go along in its
>> > description, I get to pages 12-13-14 where it says
>> > 
>> >  'Option->Menu etc' or Options/Set, Color tab,
>> > 
>> > But when I open the option menu, I only have 4 items:
>> > 
>> > Directories
>> > Backup
>> > User Interface
>> > Window positions
>> 
>> These settings are only available when you are in the schematic or board
>> window, not main window.
>> 
>> > I've been thru the user interface panel & changed a few things, like
>> > inverting the foreground/background colors used, but with no effects
>> > seen.
>> 
>> These settings only apply for the schematics and board window, not main
>> window.
>> 
>> > The settings do seem to stick over a quit & restart ok.
>> > 
>> > I don't seem to be able to create an empty schematic page, only ever
>> > deeper directories named for the page.sch I want.  This under the
>> > 'file' menu.
>> 
>> Normally you just have to click file->new->schematic to create an empty
>> schematic window. You can also right click on the selected project
>> folder (green dot at the right of it) and select new->schematic to
>> start.
>
>Did that, worked, thanks Fox.
>
>> > I can open the libraries and select the device, which then opens in
>> > its own window showing it both schematically and a footprint outline
>> > but despite reading how to select and use the device, I have no
>> > 'schematic' window to copy it into, so none of those commands do
>> > anything, not even blinking the screen to indicate an error.  The
>> > claim is made that a device should be hanging from the cursor when
>> > selected, but its never happened.  It is also single threaded making
>> > it impossible to do a drag & drop because as long as the library
>> > window is open, all others appear to be unfocusable, greyed out.  I
>> > get the impression that when I am looking at the selected device in
>> > the library's window, that I am actually looking

Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Erik Christiansen]

On 17.01.12 21:30, Ed Nisley wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-01-17 at 20:30 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > If I fix the library, 
> > will that fix the schematic when it is next loaded?
> 
> Nope, the schematic holds copies of all the components, so that you
> can't inadvertently wreck all your circuits with a single library
> change.
> 
> You must delete all instances of the old part from the schematic,
> refresh the library to get the new part, and then re-place all of them.

Never say never (or must)? When a modified library is used, I've found
that eagle warns that board & schematic may be affected. It then
requires a confirming click, before sailing on. It's then up to me to
have a look at both, to see if the modified parts have had any
noticeable effect.

If the change is drastic, it's sometimes necessary to tweak the board,
to accommodate a package correction. I don't recall ever having to
delete a component due to a library change.

Erik

-- 
Any project you tackle is always hardest at the beginning, like working
up a swing.- P.K. Shaw


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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Erik Christiansen]

On 17.01.12 20:30, gene heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 07:15:33 PM Fox Mulder did opine:
> > Am 17.01.2012 21:47, schrieb gene heskett:
> > > Checking requirements, I see that libpng14.so.14 is required so
> > > you helped me build a script: gene@shop:/opt/eagle-6.1.0$ cat
> > > bin/eagle LD_LIBRARY_PATH="$(dirname "$0")" "$(dirname "$0")/eagle.orig" 
> > > $@

That's a good way to do it if you want to keep the .so with eagle.
Another way is to drop a copy of it into /lib, and then run ldconfig,
to update the cache for ld.so, so it can find it without further ado.
A third way is to leave the .so in its current odd spot, and just add
the path to /etc/ld.so.conf before running ldconfig.

> > > It doesn't complain about a missing library so I assume that is
> > > working, but for a universal launcher, should I not have a /usr/bin
> > > bash script that first does a cd to /opt/eagle-6.1.0/ in order to
> > > setup the pwd, and then do a 'bin/eagle'?  In any event, it seems to
> > > work.

Then it's fine. Setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH is an entirely acceptable way to
get by, even if it can be done without a script. Those GUI configs you did
(Options -> Directories?) allow eagle to find your projects, so there's
no need for a cd.

...

> Ah, now I see a totally different selection window. I left click on the + 
> sign of library you sent, and see the devices name.  Now I have managed to 
> get 3 copies of it planted on the schematic,

If that's via the "Add" icon on the schematic editor, then you're cooking.

> & a few wires drawn, at which point I note that pin assignments on the
> device aren't exactly correct, and to match the device itself, I'll
> have to swap on end of it or the other around as the GND's are on the
> diagonal corners.  I'll need to think on which I swap that around as I
> assume the xml part description in the library is where to fix it. 

If the part is OK, but for the pinout, the easiest fix is to create a
variant of the existing part, if you want to keep the original pinout as
well. To avoid loss when updating the supplied libraries, and to keep
customised stuff handy, it is good to copy the part over to your own
library, and edit that, I think.

> Apparently not, the schematic doesn't change with the current contents
> of the library.  Throw it out & start over. 

Nope, to update the library info used in an open schematic editor, hit
Library->Update and select the modified library, or just use
Library->Update_All.

> Probably tomorrow after I read for a couple hours.

Yeah. And they claim GUIs are intuitive.


...

> > > But in eagle, I have yet to find that command line box talked
> > > about in the tuts so I can't run the setup utility it talks about
> > > in its install.html.

Any of eagle's commands can be run in that white strip at the top of the
schematic editor's drawing area. There's a blinking cursor, inviting
input.

> If I fix the library, will that fix the schematic when it is next
> loaded?

If the library has changed, then eagle usually warns on next startup,
that schematic and/or board may be affected, and makes you click to
confirm, IIRC.

A Library->Update after editing the part naturally avoids such
surprises.

Erik

-- 
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rituals (GUI with standardized clicky buttons, help popping up in a browser,
etc. etc.) but doesn't have the central attribute these are supposed to achieve:
discoverability. That is, the quality that every point in the interface has
prompts and actions attached to it from which you can learn what to do next.
   - Eric Raymond, in "The Luxury of Ignorance."

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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Ed Nisley]

On Tue, 2012-01-17 at 20:30 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> If I fix the library, 
> will that fix the schematic when it is next loaded?

Nope, the schematic holds copies of all the components, so that you
can't inadvertently wreck all your circuits with a single library
change.

You must delete all instances of the old part from the schematic,
refresh the library to get the new part, and then re-place all of them.

It's a pain, but it does make a certain kind of sense.

> those manuals were in my mailbox this evening.

Excellent! Now, keep telling the occasional war story...

-- 
Ed
http://softsolder.com



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Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[gene heskett]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 07:15:33 PM Fox Mulder did opine:

> Am 17.01.2012 21:47, schrieb gene heskett:
> > Greets all;
> > 
> > Going thru the docs for eagle, in this case following the
> > tutorial_en.pdf, resetting the directories to where they exist on
> > that machine seems to stick over an exit and restart.  Checking
> > requirements, I see that libpng14.so.14 is required so you helped me
> > build a script:
> > gene@shop:/opt/eagle-6.1.0$ cat bin/eagle
> > LD_LIBRARY_PATH="$(dirname "$0")" "$(dirname "$0")/eagle.orig" $@
> > 
> > It doesn't complain about a missing library so I assume that is
> > working, but for a universal launcher, should I not have a /usr/bin
> > bash script that first does a cd to /opt/eagle-6.1.0/ in order to
> > setup the pwd, and then do a 'bin/eagle'?  In any event, it seems to
> > work.
> > 
> > I have eagle open and showing my project(empty of course) highlighted
> > with a green indicator button dot in the left pane of the window.
> > 
> > Reading along in the tut and seeing a few things as I go along in its
> > description, I get to pages 12-13-14 where it says
> > 
> >  'Option->Menu etc' or Options/Set, Color tab,
> > 
> > But when I open the option menu, I only have 4 items:
> > 
> > Directories
> > Backup
> > User Interface
> > Window positions
> 
> These settings are only available when you are in the schematic or board
> window, not main window.
> 
> > I've been thru the user interface panel & changed a few things, like
> > inverting the foreground/background colors used, but with no effects
> > seen.
> 
> These settings only apply for the schematics and board window, not main
> window.
> 
> > The settings do seem to stick over a quit & restart ok.
> > 
> > I don't seem to be able to create an empty schematic page, only ever
> > deeper directories named for the page.sch I want.  This under the
> > 'file' menu.
> 
> Normally you just have to click file->new->schematic to create an empty
> schematic window. You can also right click on the selected project
> folder (green dot at the right of it) and select new->schematic to
> start.
 
Did that, worked, thanks Fox.

> > I can open the libraries and select the device, which then opens in
> > its own window showing it both schematically and a footprint outline
> > but despite reading how to select and use the device, I have no
> > 'schematic' window to copy it into, so none of those commands do
> > anything, not even blinking the screen to indicate an error.  The
> > claim is made that a device should be hanging from the cursor when
> > selected, but its never happened.  It is also single threaded making
> > it impossible to do a drag & drop because as long as the library
> > window is open, all others appear to be unfocusable, greyed out.  I
> > get the impression that when I am looking at the selected device in
> > the library's window, that I am actually looking at the device in its
> > editor window, presumably not the select and use window.  And no clue
> > how to get there except I have now gotten there probably 20 times by
> > opening the library, then opening the library in that window and
> > clicking on the now visible devices name which appears to open an
> > editor to edit the device.
> > 
> > Do I have a defective install?  or am I just too damned dumb??
> 
> This is the wrong way of working with eagle. When you open a library
> than only if you want to create/edit/delete parts in the library. For
> using it you go through the schematic/board window and use the "ADD"
> function which uses these libraries.

Ah, now I see a totally different selection window. I left click on the + 
sign of library you sent, and see the devices name.  Now I have managed to 
get 3 copies of it planted on the schematic, & a few wires drawn, at which 
point I note that pin assignments on the device aren't exactly correct, and 
to match the device itself, I'll have to swap on end of it or the other 
around as the GND's are on the diagonal corners.  I'll need to think on 
which I swap that around as I assume the xml part description in the 
library is where to fix it.  Apparently not, the schematic doesn't change 
with the current contents of the library.  Throw it out & start over.  
Probably tomorrow after I read for a couple hours.
> 
> > I have also downloaded & unpacked pcb-gcode-3.5.2.11.zip, which seems
> > to be a fairly major suite of tools in its own right, but haven't
> > attempted to sort that basket of rattlesnakes just yet.  Looks simple
> > enough, unzip it to a 'ulp' directory & add that to the ulp directory
> > path, so now I have 2 ulp directories. One with the contents of that
> > zip in it.  Kewl.  But in eagle, I have yet to find that command line
> > box talked about in the tuts so I can't run the setup utility it
> > talks about in its install.html.  And I just noted that this added
> > ulp directory, built where the docs said to build it, also shows up
> > in the projects menu.  No clue if that is good 

Re: [Emc-users] eagle-6.1.0 (again)

[Fox Mulder]

Am 17.01.2012 21:47, schrieb gene heskett:
> Greets all;
> 
> Going thru the docs for eagle, in this case following the tutorial_en.pdf,
> resetting the directories to where they exist on that machine seems to 
> stick over an exit and restart.  Checking requirements, I see that 
> libpng14.so.14 is required so you helped me build a script:
> gene@shop:/opt/eagle-6.1.0$ cat bin/eagle
> LD_LIBRARY_PATH="$(dirname "$0")" "$(dirname "$0")/eagle.orig" $@
> 
> It doesn't complain about a missing library so I assume that is working, 
> but for a universal launcher, should I not have a /usr/bin bash script that 
> first does a cd to /opt/eagle-6.1.0/ in order to setup the pwd, and then do 
> a 'bin/eagle'?  In any event, it seems to work.
> 
> I have eagle open and showing my project(empty of course) highlighted with 
> a green indicator button dot in the left pane of the window.
> 
> Reading along in the tut and seeing a few things as I go along in its 
> description, I get to pages 12-13-14 where it says
>  'Option->Menu etc' or Options/Set, Color tab,
> 
> But when I open the option menu, I only have 4 items:
> 
> Directories
> Backup
> User Interface
> Window positions

These settings are only available when you are in the schematic or board
window, not main window.

> I've been thru the user interface panel & changed a few things, like 
> inverting the foreground/background colors used, but with no effects seen.

These settings only apply for the schematics and board window, not main
window.

> The settings do seem to stick over a quit & restart ok.
> 
> I don't seem to be able to create an empty schematic page, only ever deeper 
> directories named for the page.sch I want.  This under the 'file' menu.

Normally you just have to click file->new->schematic to create an empty
schematic window. You can also right click on the selected project
folder (green dot at the right of it) and select new->schematic to start.

> 
> I can open the libraries and select the device, which then opens in its own 
> window showing it both schematically and a footprint outline but despite 
> reading how to select and use the device, I have no 'schematic' window to 
> copy it into, so none of those commands do anything, not even blinking the 
> screen to indicate an error.  The claim is made that a device should be 
> hanging from the cursor when selected, but its never happened.  It is also 
> single threaded making it impossible to do a drag & drop because as long as 
> the library window is open, all others appear to be unfocusable, greyed 
> out.  I get the impression that when I am looking at the selected device in 
> the library's window, that I am actually looking at the device in its 
> editor window, presumably not the select and use window.  And no clue how 
> to get there except I have now gotten there probably 20 times by opening 
> the library, then opening the library in that window and clicking on the 
> now visible devices name which appears to open an editor to edit the 
> device.
> 
> Do I have a defective install?  or am I just too damned dumb??

This is the wrong way of working with eagle. When you open a library
than only if you want to create/edit/delete parts in the library. For
using it you go through the schematic/board window and use the "ADD"
function which uses these libraries.

> 
> I have also downloaded & unpacked pcb-gcode-3.5.2.11.zip, which seems to be 
> a fairly major suite of tools in its own right, but haven't attempted to 
> sort that basket of rattlesnakes just yet.  Looks simple enough, unzip it 
> to a 'ulp' directory & add that to the ulp directory path, so now I have 2 
> ulp directories. One with the contents of that zip in it.  Kewl.  But in 
> eagle, I have yet to find that command line box talked about in the tuts so 
> I can't run the setup utility it talks about in its install.html.  And I 
> just noted that this added ulp directory, built where the docs said to 
> build it, also shows up in the projects menu.  No clue if that is good or 
> bad, just commenting.

Instead of using the commandline in eagle to run it you can (in the
schematic/board window) use file->execute ULP and select the
corresponding ulp file like pcb-gcode-setup.ulp which does the same.

Ciao,
 Rainer

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