date:20141223

On Dec 23, 2014, at 1:25 PM, Jan Steinman via EV  wrote:

> Ideally, you'd follow a NiFe battery with a boost/buck MPP regulator that is 
> designed to charge batteries from a solar panel, which also has big voltage 
> swings. Such a think will deliver a constant 13.8 volts with an input of 
> between 10 to 20 volts or so.

Thanks! I'm adding that to the list of components to investigate

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

On Dec 23, 2014, at 2:56 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> Remember, we are talking about ENERGY, not the cost of the battery.

No, we're discussing the financial sense of the system as an whole.

Give anybody a choice between two systems, each of which keeps the lights on 
whenever you flip the switch, one with a total lifetime cost of $10,000 that 
only has 10% energy efficiency and the other with a total lifetime cost of 
$100,000 and 100% energy efficiency, and basically everybody is going to be all 
over the inefficient system.

Sunlight is the cheapest thing there is anywhere within a billion miles or so. 
What do I care how much of it I waste?

PV capacity is less cheap. I'm probably going to care if I need to put twice as 
many panels on my roof, but it's not something to dismiss out of hand. Any 
more, the panels themselves aren't that significant a percentage of the cost of 
the entire system.

Batteries are expensive. I'm definitely going to care if I have to throw them 
all away and replace them every few years.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

Huh?  Wow...

Remember, we are talking about ENERGY, not the cost of the battery.  It
seems crazy to me that one would invest tens of thousands of dollars in a
SOLAR energy production system, and be happy then with throwing away 50%
right off the top in a poor efficiency battery system just to save a few
dollars in battery cost.  (Given that a battery is a wasted investment
anyway as far as energy production is concerned compared to grid-tie).

Although this is an EV list, where efficiency of batteries is not of top
priority (maximum capacity is), be careful trying to carry that experience
over to solar energy systems, where efficiency (getting the most energy at
the highest value) with the least waste is the priority.

That's why the 100% storage efficiency of the grid, with unlimited
capacity and at zero cost* beats battery storage 10,000 to one (see the
earlier numbers).

*plus the minimum account charge ($8/mo in Maryland).

Bob, WB4APR

-Original Message-
From: Ben Goren [mailto:b...@trumpetpower.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 4:29 PM
To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

On Dec 23, 2014, at 2:21 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> Giving them terrible efficiency.  That's almost 50%.  Given that an
> electron-in to charge at 70 volts comes out at 36 volts is a 50% loss of
> "power" and hence efficiency.   Such batteries are great for standby
back
> up systems where efficiency is of no concern.  But for a daily solar
> cycle, adds another 50% loss factor on top of an already abisymal 30%
> performance per dollar.

If battery A has half the efficiency of battery B, but battery A has a
service lifetime of a century and battery B only has a service lifetime of
several years, it's battery B with the abysmal performance per dollar.

Unless, of course, battery B costs a tiny fraction of battery A,
especially if battery C with superior performance to either A or B is
expected to appear on the market by the end of battery B's lifetime.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

source of energy. They produce nothing. Solar panels
do. Far better to spend X dollars available for more solar panels which
pay off themselves in about 3 years and use the nearly free storage in the
grid.

Self-storage (if you have access to the grid) consumes $2 out of every $3
invested in Solar with zero benefit other than about 4 hours of backup
electricity a year (around here with a 99.96% reliable grid). That's
spending several thousands of dollars for about 60 cents worth of
electricity.

If you don't have the grid, then sure, on-site storage is required.

Oh, my zero-usage electric bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
month, or $100 a year. That is renting a 10,000 kWh storage system (the
grid). Or about 100 kWh per dollar. Compare that with the 0.01 kWh per
dollar for batteries.

A 10,000 times better deal if there ever was one.

Bob, WB4APR
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Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama*

Tell me what it is you plan to do

With your one wild and precious life?

Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.

*Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>*

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.

*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross

(919) 550-2430 Land

(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone

(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
Dalai Lama

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
Warren Buffet

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk
michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

On Dec 23, 2014, at 2:21 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> Giving them terrible efficiency.  That's almost 50%.  Given that an
> electron-in to charge at 70 volts comes out at 36 volts is a 50% loss of
> "power" and hence efficiency.   Such batteries are great for standby back
> up systems where efficiency is of no concern.  But for a daily solar
> cycle, adds another 50% loss factor on top of an already abisymal 30%
> performance per dollar.

If battery A has half the efficiency of battery B, but battery A has a service 
lifetime of a century and battery B only has a service lifetime of several 
years, it's battery B with the abysmal performance per dollar.

Unless, of course, battery B costs a tiny fraction of battery A, especially if 
battery C with superior performance to either A or B is expected to appear on 
the market by the end of battery B's lifetime.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

Efficiency...

> The aquair batteries... have an even wider swing--
> something like 36 to 70 volts...

Giving them terrible efficiency.  That's almost 50%.  Given that an
electron-in to charge at 70 volts comes out at 36 volts is a 50% loss of
"power" and hence efficiency.   Such batteries are great for standby back
up systems where efficiency is of no concern.  But for a daily solar
cycle, adds another 50% loss factor on top of an already abisymal 30%
performance per dollar.


Bob, WB4APR

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> On Dec 22, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Jan Steinman via EV  > wrote:
>
> > Flooded cell NiFe have a fairly high internal resistance and, as you
> note, a large voltage swing. But they are the champs when it comes to
> longevity.
>
> Does that voltage swing require special inverters, etc., to use them
> in something like an off-grid function? Or is it likely to "just work"?
>
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

2014-12-23 Thread Jan Steinman via EV

> From: Ben Goren via EV 
> 
> On Dec 22, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Jan Steinman via EV  wrote:
> 
>> Flooded cell NiFe have a fairly high internal resistance and, as you note, a 
>> large voltage swing. But they are the champs when it comes to longevity.
> 
> Does that voltage swing require special inverters, etc., to use them in 
> something like an off-grid function? Or is it likely to "just work"?

They may well "just work," but not to their full capacity if they dip so low 
that smart loads start cutting out to protect themselves against low voltage. 
(Many inverters will refuse to work much below 12 volts.)

Ideally, you'd follow a NiFe battery with a boost/buck MPP regulator that is 
designed to charge batteries from a solar panel, which also has big voltage 
swings. Such a think will deliver a constant 13.8 volts with an input of 
between 10 to 20 volts or so.

 In nature, systems that are immature and growing rapidly, in a situation 
of surplus free energy, tend to be dominated by competitive relationships; 
mature ecosystems, in which there is little free or surplus energy, show a high 
degree of mutualistic and symbiotic relationships. -- David Holmgren
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

2014-12-23 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV

hoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain 
>>> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?  
>>> Dalai Lama 
>>> 
>>> Tell me what it is you plan to do
>>> With your one wild and precious life?
>>> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
>>> 
>>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>>> Thomas A. Edison
>>> 
>>> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
>>> Warren Buffet
>>> 
>>> Michael E. Ross
>>> (919) 550-2430 Land
>>> (919) 576-0824 Google Phone
>>> (919) 631-1451 Cell
>>> (919) 513-0418 Desk
>>> 
>>> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain 
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?  
> Dalai Lama 
> 
> Tell me what it is you plan to do
> With your one wild and precious life?
> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
> 
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> 
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> Warren Buffet
> 
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 550-2430 Land
> (919) 576-0824 Google Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> (919) 513-0418 Desk
> 
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

2014-12-23 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Most of the current battery based inverters can handle a swing from 40
volts to 65 volts (for a 48 volt nominal nife bank) though output voltage
regulation may not always be in spec at the far ends.   A lead acid bank
might swing between 46 and 60volts for comparison.   Older inverters did
not always have as wide of a range.

The aquair batteries that everyone has bee hearing about recently
apparently have an even wider swing--something like 36 to 70 volts, and
inverter manufactures are working on new inverters that can maintain output
spec with that input swing from what I hear.

I've been pretty happy with nife and flooded nicad.  Yes, they are not
quite as efficient but in some cases lead acid was lasting only 4 years
(heavy wintertime sulphation) and nicad is currently on 22 years.

Z

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> On Dec 22, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Jan Steinman via EV  > wrote:
>
> > Flooded cell NiFe have a fairly high internal resistance and, as you
> note, a large voltage swing. But they are the champs when it comes to
> longevity.
>
> Does that voltage swing require special inverters, etc., to use them in
> something like an off-grid function? Or is it likely to "just work"?
>
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

r to spend X dollars available for more solar panels which
> pay off themselves in about 3 years and use the nearly free storage in the
> grid.
>
> Self-storage (if you have access to the grid) consumes $2 out of every $3
> invested in Solar with zero benefit other than about 4 hours of backup
> electricity a year (around here with a 99.96% reliable grid).  That's
> spending several thousands of dollars for about 60 cents worth of
> electricity.
>
> If you don't have the grid, then sure, on-site storage is required.
>
> Oh, my zero-usage electric  bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
> month, or $100 a year.  That is renting a 10,000 kWh storage system (the
> grid).  Or about 100 kWh per dollar.  Compare that with the 0.01 kWh per
> dollar for batteries.
>
> A 10,000 times better deal if there ever was one.
>
> Bob, WB4APR
> ___
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> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
>
> *Dalai Lama*
>
>
>
> Tell me what it is you plan to do
>
> With your one wild and precious life?
>
> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
>
>
>
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>
> *Thomas A. Edison
> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>*
>
>
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
>
> *Warren Buffet*
>
>
>
> Michael E. Ross
>
> (919) 550-2430 Land
>
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
> Phone
>
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> (919) 513-0418 Desk
>
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

2014-12-23 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV

My guess is that the utility serves by address or parcel, in which case you're 
still considered being served by solar, and still need to pay those charges. 
You won't be able to "hide" it in a separate system.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 23, 2014, at 8:36 AM, Michael Ross  wrote:
> 
> I can imagine - if the utilities make grid connections to solar a bad idea, 
> ten I divide my house into two systems.  On that is grid tied and running for 
> example, the refrigerator and lights.  Take other things off grid - the 
> garage, well pump, water heater, future car charging, the mostly unused 
> propane furnace and AC..  Not sure the mix but, get the power from PV and 
> store it, but not so I have to worry about  storing for really long dark and 
> rainy times.  Then pay minimally for grid use.  If I need to, I drag an 
> extension cord to the fridge from the solar side when the grid is out.  No 
> safety problems back powering the grid like that. Or if I need to run the 
> well pump after a dark time, switch it over to grid.
> 
> If it does make sense, look for someone marketing a clean way to do this sort 
> of thing.
> 
>> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
>> wrote:
>> I have to disagree.
>> 
>> Ask him on a day where his panels are producing more than he can use what 
>> extra value he is getting from them. Then ask him on a day where he is not 
>> getting enough from the panels how much it would have been worth to have 
>> batteries.
>> 
>> If you are taking yourself off grid, not only do the batteries (or other 
>> energy storage method) produce value, but may even be essential.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Dec 23, 2014, at 6:48 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >> A 20-year T-bill right now is only paying about 2.5%...
>> >> Even if it takes 20 years to pay off the battery system...
>> >
>> > Batteries are not a source of energy.  They produce nothing.  Solar panels
>> > do.  Far better to spend X dollars available for more solar panels which
>> > pay off themselves in about 3 years and use the nearly free storage in the
>> > grid.
>> >
>> > Self-storage (if you have access to the grid) consumes $2 out of every $3
>> > invested in Solar with zero benefit other than about 4 hours of backup
>> > electricity a year (around here with a 99.96% reliable grid).  That's
>> > spending several thousands of dollars for about 60 cents worth of
>> > electricity.
>> >
>> > If you don't have the grid, then sure, on-site storage is required.
>> >
>> > Oh, my zero-usage electric  bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
>> > month, or $100 a year.  That is renting a 10,000 kWh storage system (the
>> > grid).  Or about 100 kWh per dollar.  Compare that with the 0.01 kWh per
>> > dollar for batteries.
>> >
>> > A 10,000 times better deal if there ever was one.
>> >
>> > Bob, WB4APR
>> > ___
>> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
>> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> >
>> >
>> ___
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>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain 
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?  
> Dalai Lama 
> 
> Tell me what it is you plan to do
> With your one wild and precious life?
> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
> 
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> 
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> Warren Buffet
> 
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 550-2430 Land
> (919) 576-0824 Google Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> (919) 513-0418 Desk
> 
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

2014-12-23 Thread jim via EV

We heat with wood, using a forced air furnace in our basement.  The furnace has 
a 1/3hp motor for air circulation and also provides much of our winter hot 
water via a firebox coil.  The furnace motor is a major user off electrical 
energy in the winter.  We use 3 to 4 full cords of dry oak and mixed hardwoods 
in a winter.
Jim in western Wisconsin

  From: Robert Bruninga 
 To: jim ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 

 Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 10:34 AM
 Subject: RE: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

Can I ask what you use for heat in the winter?
Thanks
Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of jim via EV
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 11:22 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

We've been using a battery based system since 1977,

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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

2014-12-23 Thread Chris Meier via EV

Can/will the market adapt?

- add a power section and a HV DC port to the house inverter
- add a HV DC port to the traction battery on the hybrid cars
- cable them together during low isolation periods or if you use more than your 
panels produce
- add more solar when you can, if it's lower power cost than the hybrid car 
power cost, and you mostly produce less solar power than you use

If the utilities raise the base, there's more money in the market for 
alternatives. We're already headed there; seems like this move by the utilities 
would hasten V2H.

On December 23, 2014 9:58:41 AM CST, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:
>On Dec 23, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Michael Ross via EV 
>wrote:
>
>> Presently, the grid is a better deal than
>> storage.
>
>"Presently" is the key word.
>
>Utilities presently typically charge basic connection fees under $20 /
>month.
>
>But utilities scared of solar are moving towards charging between $50
>and $100 per month or more, just for the privilege of putting solar
>panels on your roof. Basically, they're calling the bluff, trying to
>structure their rates so that you pay basically the same amount whether
>or not you have solar panels on your roof.
>
>And, in the environment the utilities are idiotically barreling us
>towards, the grid ceases to make sense. Better to double your solar
>costs and cut your grid costs to zero than to pay for solar and keep
>paying what you used to for the grid. Much better
>
>b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

On Dec 22, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Jan Steinman via EV  wrote:

> Flooded cell NiFe have a fairly high internal resistance and, as you note, a 
> large voltage swing. But they are the champs when it comes to longevity.

Does that voltage swing require special inverters, etc., to use them in 
something like an off-grid function? Or is it likely to "just work"?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

On Dec 23, 2014, at 11:41 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

>> But, if the SRP proposal goes through, it'll either be
>> a fixed $50 or $67 per month..
> 
> That is preposterous and only shows how the greed of well funded oil money
> campaigns can convince people against their better interest.

Yes, it's preposterous. And, yes, I smell the hand of the Koch Brothers in this.

But that doesn't make it any less real.

>> Now re-run your calculations with those numbers
>> and see if they still make the same kind of "no-brainer" sense.
> 
> No, join the intelligent fight against such greed and convince your law
> makers to ignore this greedy grab by entrenched fossil burning interests.

What, the same lawmakers whose campaigns are funded by the Koch Brothers?

> I do agree that there is a fixed cost I should have to pay for using the
> grid for storage.

But this has nothing whatsoever to do with "fair." It has everything to do with 
maximizing corporate profits. Indeed, all the marketing materials from SRP say 
that is is to _restore_ fairness, because us dirty solar hippies aren't paying 
our fair share to maintain the grid.

> Even
> in conservative Arizona, they have added $5 a month to solar customers.
> Big deal.

That was some months ago with APS. This is right now with SRP.

APS initially proposed the same basic thing SRP is proposing, but the Arizona 
Corporation Commission shot down APS's proposal and held them to the $5 / month 
you cite.

SRP is a quasi-governmental self-regulating entity, and the Corporation 
Commission has no oversight. Nor does anybody else, pretty much.

Again, yes. This is preposterous.

But I'm not going to sit here doing nothing in stunned disbelief that "They 
can't possibly do that!" because, in fact, it's very likely that they actually 
will do it -- and get away with doing it, too.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

2014-12-23 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV

On 23 Dec 2014 at 11:36, Willie2 via EV wrote:

> Can someone point me to a/the public archive? 

http://www.evdl.org/archive/

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

> But, if the SRP proposal goes through, it'll either be
> a fixed $50 or $67 per month..

That is preposterous and only shows how the greed of well funded oil money
campaigns can convince people against their better interest.

> Now re-run your calculations with those numbers
> and see if they still make the same kind of "no-brainer" sense.

No, join the intelligent fight against such greed and convince your law
makers to ignore this greedy grab by entrenched fossil burning interests.

I do agree that there is a fixed cost I should have to pay for using the
grid for storage.  But it is easy to compute:

- My fair share of the distribution cost for grid maintenance
- MINUS the reduced peak load on the distribution system offsetting grid
demand
- MINUS the net 10-to-1 generation benefit during summer peak

In most cases, the result is that the benefits to the utility are more
than the distribution costs and so many states call it a NET wash.  Even
in conservative Arizona, they have added $5 a month to solar customers.
Big deal.

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

> If you are taking yourself off grid, not only do the batteries
> produce value, but may even be essential.

Sure, but at 10,000 times more expensive than using the grid?

Of course you need maybe 4 car batteries to keep your refrigerator and
lights on during an overnight power outage, but it is crazy to throw any
more money away trying to store up to maybe 60 kWh per day in batteries
(costing say $12,000) when you can store it in the grid for a few dollars
rent a month.

Bob.

On Dec 23, 2014, at 6:48 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

>> A 20-year T-bill right now is only paying about 2.5%...
>> Even if it takes 20 years to pay off the battery system...
>
> Batteries are not a source of energy.  They produce nothing.  Solar
> panels do.  Far better to spend X dollars available for more solar
> panels which pay off themselves in about 3 years and use the nearly
> free storage in the grid.
>
> Self-storage (if you have access to the grid) consumes $2 out of every
> $3 invested in Solar with zero benefit other than about 4 hours of
> backup electricity a year (around here with a 99.96% reliable grid).
> That's spending several thousands of dollars for about 60 cents worth
> of electricity.
>
> If you don't have the grid, then sure, on-site storage is required.
>
> Oh, my zero-usage electric  bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
> month, or $100 a year.  That is renting a 10,000 kWh storage system
> (the grid).  Or about 100 kWh per dollar.  Compare that with the 0.01
> kWh per dollar for batteries.
>
> A 10,000 times better deal if there ever was one.
>
> Bob, WB4APR
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[EVDL] batteries for solar PV off-grid (Generation/distribution)

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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

On Dec 23, 2014, at 10:13 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Actually, there is way less motivation for the utility to "penalize" the 
> homeowner in a case like this.

The big picture for the utilities is that people with solar buy substantially 
less electricity, which in turn means the utilities get nowhere near as much 
money from those people. What they care about isn't how you go about no longer 
buying electricity from them; what they care about is that you're not actually 
buying electricity from them any more.

The utilities right now think that they can solve that problem by charging 
solar customers what they solar customers would be paying if they didn't have 
any solar panels. That only makes sense if they have a monopoly and if their 
customers don't have any alternative choice. The problem in their thinking is 
that we _do_ have a choice, and this dick move on their part makes the 
competition a slightly better financial value, _and_ the competition has all 
sorts of non-financial benefits.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

2014-12-23 Thread Willie2 via EV


On 12/23/2014 11:03 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
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I would like to point a non-EVDL subscriber to this thread.  The footer 
does not lead to a public archive.  Can someone point me to a/the public 
archive?


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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

ary Oliver, "The summer day."



To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.

*Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>*



A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.

*Warren Buffet*



Michael E. Ross

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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

2014-12-23 Thread David Nelson via EV

Just install a generator transfer switch. There are several UL listed
options available. When the switch is on "generator" that part of the
system is disconnected from the grid. Just hook up your PV/battery system
to the generator side.

On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:

No, I think it is fine electrical code is electrical code.  You do it right
and you get the sign off.

You are allowed to have a non - grid electrical system with storage
batteries - if it is built to code. You are allowed to have a conventional
grid tied system if it is built to code.  I am not suggesting any
connection between them.  Just moving appliances around as needed.  It is
functionally no different than having things run on a generator.

On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Ben Goren > wrote:

> On Dec 23, 2014, at 9:56 AM, Michael Ross via EV >
> wrote:
>
> > No, I would look just like anyone else with no power feeding back into
> the
> > grid.   I can flip a switch right now and reach that state. They
couldn't
> > make that fly.  I would have to pay for a new meter and base or
> something.
>
> You're still going to have to get the construction past the local
> permitting and inspection requirements, and the setup you describe is
going
> to set off alarm bells six ways from Sunday.
>
> And, if it becomes popular enough to show up on the radar of the utility
> companies, they'll just charge _everybody_ a $75 / month "grid maintenance
> fee," and get it past the public by cutting per-kWh rates in half such
that
> "nobody" actually pays more per month than they do today.
>
> The games the utility companies are playing are of the type where the only
> winning move (for either side) is to not play.
>
> b&

--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
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michael.e.r...@gmail.com 
>
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

2014-12-23 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Actually, there is way less motivation for the utility to "penalize" the 
homeowner in a case like this.  Unlike running the entire house off the 
grid, this approach provides a more predictable usage pattern for the 
utility.  Assuming you don't switch the fridge and other major 
appliances back and forth, from the utility's point of view you have an 
entirely grid powered house.  What's powered by your panels could just 
as well not exist or be powered by disposable batteries, etc.


The only motivation for them to penalize you is that they are making 
less profit.  But I think that would fail miserably in court since there 
is precedent to support economical appliances, LED or fluorescent 
lighting, and other ways to consume less power.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Ben Goren via EV" 
To: "Michael Ross" ; "Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List" 

Sent: 23-Dec-14 9:03:44 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 
times more)


On Dec 23, 2014, at 9:56 AM, Michael Ross via EV  
wrote:


 No, I would look just like anyone else with no power feeding back 
into the
 grid. I can flip a switch right now and reach that state. They 
couldn't
 make that fly. I would have to pay for a new meter and base or 
something.


You're still going to have to get the construction past the local 
permitting and inspection requirements, and the setup you describe is 
going to set off alarm bells six ways from Sunday.


And, if it becomes popular enough to show up on the radar of the 
utility companies, they'll just charge _everybody_ a $75 / month "grid 
maintenance fee," and get it past the public by cutting per-kWh rates 
in half such that "nobody" actually pays more per month than they do 
today.


The games the utility companies are playing are of the type where the 
only winning move (for either side) is to not play.


b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

No, I think it is fine electrical code is electrical code.  You do it right
and you get the sign off.

You are allowed to have a non - grid electrical system with storage
batteries - if it is built to code. You are allowed to have a conventional
grid tied system if it is built to code.  I am not suggesting any
connection between them.  Just moving appliances around as needed.  It is
functionally no different than having things run on a generator.

On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Ben Goren  wrote:

> On Dec 23, 2014, at 9:56 AM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > No, I would look just like anyone else with no power feeding back into
> the
> > grid.   I can flip a switch right now and reach that state. They couldn't
> > make that fly.  I would have to pay for a new meter and base or
> something.
>
> You're still going to have to get the construction past the local
> permitting and inspection requirements, and the setup you describe is going
> to set off alarm bells six ways from Sunday.
>
> And, if it becomes popular enough to show up on the radar of the utility
> companies, they'll just charge _everybody_ a $75 / month "grid maintenance
> fee," and get it past the public by cutting per-kWh rates in half such that
> "nobody" actually pays more per month than they do today.
>
> The games the utility companies are playing are of the type where the only
> winning move (for either side) is to not play.
>
> b&

-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

On Dec 23, 2014, at 9:56 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:

> No, I would look just like anyone else with no power feeding back into the
> grid.   I can flip a switch right now and reach that state. They couldn't
> make that fly.  I would have to pay for a new meter and base or something.

You're still going to have to get the construction past the local permitting 
and inspection requirements, and the setup you describe is going to set off 
alarm bells six ways from Sunday.

And, if it becomes popular enough to show up on the radar of the utility 
companies, they'll just charge _everybody_ a $75 / month "grid maintenance 
fee," and get it past the public by cutting per-kWh rates in half such that 
"nobody" actually pays more per month than they do today.

The games the utility companies are playing are of the type where the only 
winning move (for either side) is to not play.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

;
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
>
>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

2014-12-23 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Clever.  I like that :)

-- Original Message --
From: "Michael Ross via EV" 
To: "Mark Abramowitz" ; "Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List" 

Sent: 23-Dec-14 8:36:28 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 
times more)

I can imagine - if the utilities make grid connections to solar a bad 
idea,
ten I divide my house into two systems. On that is grid tied and 
running
for example, the refrigerator and lights. Take other things off grid - 
the

garage, well pump, water heater, future car charging, the mostly unused
propane furnace and AC.. Not sure the mix but, get the power from PV 
and

store it, but not so I have to worry about storing for really long dark
and rainy times. Then pay minimally for grid use. If I need to, I drag 
an
extension cord to the fridge from the solar side when the grid is out. 
No
safety problems back powering the grid like that. Or if I need to run 
the

well pump after a dark time, switch it over to grid.

If it does make sense, look for someone marketing a clean way to do 
this

sort of thing.

On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 

wrote:

 I have to disagree.

 Ask him on a day where his panels are producing more than he can use 
what
 extra value he is getting from them. Then ask him on a day where he 
is not
 getting enough from the panels how much it would have been worth to 
have

 batteries.

 If you are taking yourself off grid, not only do the batteries (or 
other

 energy storage method) produce value, but may even be essential.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Dec 23, 2014, at 6:48 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 

 wrote:

 >> A 20-year T-bill right now is only paying about 2.5%...
 >> Even if it takes 20 years to pay off the battery system...
 >
 > Batteries are not a source of energy. They produce nothing. Solar
 panels
 > do. Far better to spend X dollars available for more solar panels 
which
 > pay off themselves in about 3 years and use the nearly free storage 
in

 the
 > grid.
 >
 > Self-storage (if you have access to the grid) consumes $2 out of 
every $3
 > invested in Solar with zero benefit other than about 4 hours of 
backup
 > electricity a year (around here with a 99.96% reliable grid). 
That's

 > spending several thousands of dollars for about 60 cents worth of
 > electricity.
 >
 > If you don't have the grid, then sure, on-site storage is required.
 >
 > Oh, my zero-usage electric bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
 > month, or $100 a year. That is renting a 10,000 kWh storage system 
(the
 > grid). Or about 100 kWh per dollar. Compare that with the 0.01 kWh 
per

 > dollar for batteries.
 >
 > A 10,000 times better deal if there ever was one.
 >
 > Bob, WB4APR
 > ___
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 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
 >
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*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

I can imagine - if the utilities make grid connections to solar a bad idea,
ten I divide my house into two systems.  On that is grid tied and running
for example, the refrigerator and lights.  Take other things off grid - the
garage, well pump, water heater, future car charging, the mostly unused
propane furnace and AC..  Not sure the mix but, get the power from PV and
store it, but not so I have to worry about  storing for really long dark
and rainy times.  Then pay minimally for grid use.  If I need to, I drag an
extension cord to the fridge from the solar side when the grid is out.  No
safety problems back powering the grid like that. Or if I need to run the
well pump after a dark time, switch it over to grid.

If it does make sense, look for someone marketing a clean way to do this
sort of thing.

On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> I have to disagree.
>
> Ask him on a day where his panels are producing more than he can use what
> extra value he is getting from them. Then ask him on a day where he is not
> getting enough from the panels how much it would have been worth to have
> batteries.
>
> If you are taking yourself off grid, not only do the batteries (or other
> energy storage method) produce value, but may even be essential.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 23, 2014, at 6:48 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >> A 20-year T-bill right now is only paying about 2.5%...
> >> Even if it takes 20 years to pay off the battery system...
> >
> > Batteries are not a source of energy.  They produce nothing.  Solar
> panels
> > do.  Far better to spend X dollars available for more solar panels which
> > pay off themselves in about 3 years and use the nearly free storage in
> the
> > grid.
> >
> > Self-storage (if you have access to the grid) consumes $2 out of every $3
> > invested in Solar with zero benefit other than about 4 hours of backup
> > electricity a year (around here with a 99.96% reliable grid).  That's
> > spending several thousands of dollars for about 60 cents worth of
> > electricity.
> >
> > If you don't have the grid, then sure, on-site storage is required.
> >
> > Oh, my zero-usage electric  bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
> > month, or $100 a year.  That is renting a 10,000 kWh storage system (the
> > grid).  Or about 100 kWh per dollar.  Compare that with the 0.01 kWh per
> > dollar for batteries.
> >
> > A 10,000 times better deal if there ever was one.
> >
> > Bob, WB4APR
> > ___
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
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>
>

-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

2014-12-23 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV

I have to disagree.

Ask him on a day where his panels are producing more than he can use what extra 
value he is getting from them. Then ask him on a day where he is not getting 
enough from the panels how much it would have been worth to have batteries.

If you are taking yourself off grid, not only do the batteries (or other energy 
storage method) produce value, but may even be essential.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 23, 2014, at 6:48 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

>> A 20-year T-bill right now is only paying about 2.5%...
>> Even if it takes 20 years to pay off the battery system...
> 
> Batteries are not a source of energy.  They produce nothing.  Solar panels
> do.  Far better to spend X dollars available for more solar panels which
> pay off themselves in about 3 years and use the nearly free storage in the
> grid.
> 
> Self-storage (if you have access to the grid) consumes $2 out of every $3
> invested in Solar with zero benefit other than about 4 hours of backup
> electricity a year (around here with a 99.96% reliable grid).  That's
> spending several thousands of dollars for about 60 cents worth of
> electricity.
> 
> If you don't have the grid, then sure, on-site storage is required.
> 
> Oh, my zero-usage electric  bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
> month, or $100 a year.  That is renting a 10,000 kWh storage system (the
> grid).  Or about 100 kWh per dollar.  Compare that with the 0.01 kWh per
> dollar for batteries.
> 
> A 10,000 times better deal if there ever was one.
> 
> Bob, WB4APR
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> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

On Dec 23, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:

> Presently, the grid is a better deal than
> storage.

"Presently" is the key word.

Utilities presently typically charge basic connection fees under $20 / month.

But utilities scared of solar are moving towards charging between $50 and $100 
per month or more, just for the privilege of putting solar panels on your roof. 
Basically, they're calling the bluff, trying to structure their rates so that 
you pay basically the same amount whether or not you have solar panels on your 
roof.

And, in the environment the utilities are idiotically barreling us towards, the 
grid ceases to make sense. Better to double your solar costs and cut your grid 
costs to zero than to pay for solar and keep paying what you used to for the 
grid. Much better

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

On Dec 23, 2014, at 7:48 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> Oh, my zero-usage electric  bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
> month, or $100 a year.

Good for you. And all your calculations make perfect sense with that baseline.

Today, I generate ~150% net of usage (to accommodate a future EV) and pay a 
fixed $17 per month. My surplus gets credited at some pitiful per-kWh rate such 
that I actually wind up paying about $120 per year rather than the $204 I would 
with exactly net zero. The end result for me *TODAY* is basically the same as 
for you: going off the grid doesn't make sense. Which is why I'm on the grid 
right now.

But, if the SRP proposal goes through, it'll either be a fixed $50 or $67 per 
month, meaning possibly up to $804 per year. And that's assuming they don't 
alter the deal further, in the spirit of Darth Vader.

Now re-run your calculations with those numbers and see if they still make the 
same kind of "no-brainer" sense.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

You are quite right Robert.  Presently, the grid is a better deal than
storage.  How much PV is "worth" is another item entirely.

At my home, I have used the best possible location for PV.  Trees have to
come down (and not all of them mine) to get good sun.

Tax credits have to be available AND I have to have enough tax liability to
use them.  (PV is still to expensive to own without the subsidies (I am
happy to get those given how freely they are usually distributed to
corporate entities).

Duke Progress can't be counted on to pay a fair price for the power I would
store if I had more PV.  They have have floated the idea that I/we  should
pay $0.09/kWh when buying power, but they will only pay $0.02 /kWh when I
make it.  I do pay just under $20 a month when I use no power of theirs at
all; supposedly to support the electrical service.  It isn't in the cost of
a kWh apparently.   They say by having more power generation, but no extra
paid in for grid service, that I/we are putting the cost of grid service
onto all the poor folks that can't afford PV.  I think this is
money-grubbing and PR, but that is the track they took last year.

I pretty much can't justify the unsubsidized PV.  In the first sentence I
said "presently."  I think that holds for all these things.

I have reached my goal to reduce our utility expense as much as we
reasonably can,,and we contribute some non-use of un-green power.
I really like it that we contribute less to the mutli-million dollar
salaries and fine offices, and that my power generation is nearly
maintenance free for decades to come.  I am grateful that the fed and the
state saw fit to make this possible.  The utility company would not have
supported it .  They simply want nothing to succeed that they don't have
firmly under their control.

It is about the best we can do at this time.

On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> > A 20-year T-bill right now is only paying about 2.5%...
> > Even if it takes 20 years to pay off the battery system...
>
> Batteries are not a source of energy.  They produce nothing.  Solar panels
> do.  Far better to spend X dollars available for more solar panels which
> pay off themselves in about 3 years and use the nearly free storage in the
> grid.
>
> Self-storage (if you have access to the grid) consumes $2 out of every $3
> invested in Solar with zero benefit other than about 4 hours of backup
> electricity a year (around here with a 99.96% reliable grid).  That's
> spending several thousands of dollars for about 60 cents worth of
> electricity.
>
> If you don't have the grid, then sure, on-site storage is required.
>
> Oh, my zero-usage electric  bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
> month, or $100 a year.  That is renting a 10,000 kWh storage system (the
> grid).  Or about 100 kWh per dollar.  Compare that with the 0.01 kWh per
> dollar for batteries.
>
> A 10,000 times better deal if there ever was one.
>
> Bob, WB4APR
> ___
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

> A 20-year T-bill right now is only paying about 2.5%...
> Even if it takes 20 years to pay off the battery system...

Batteries are not a source of energy.  They produce nothing.  Solar panels
do.  Far better to spend X dollars available for more solar panels which
pay off themselves in about 3 years and use the nearly free storage in the
grid.

Self-storage (if you have access to the grid) consumes $2 out of every $3
invested in Solar with zero benefit other than about 4 hours of backup
electricity a year (around here with a 99.96% reliable grid).  That's
spending several thousands of dollars for about 60 cents worth of
electricity.

If you don't have the grid, then sure, on-site storage is required.

Oh, my zero-usage electric  bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
month, or $100 a year.  That is renting a 10,000 kWh storage system (the
grid).  Or about 100 kWh per dollar.  Compare that with the 0.01 kWh per
dollar for batteries.

A 10,000 times better deal if there ever was one.

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Turning over a "Used Leaf" :-)

2014-12-23 Thread Peter Eckhoff via EV


Oops they are different.  Please disregard my last reply.

On 12/23/2014 7:53 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

Cor,

Just below the $3200 eBay ad you referenced (Part N0. 7435-3318) below 
was a link to a $99 J1772 EVSE 30A EV 16' Charging cord 120/240V Level 
2 UL (Part No. 7335-9426)  From the pictures, they almost look the 
same internally.  Not sure what the actual difference is between the 
two other than length and asking price.


I tried to copy the URL but it came back as being several lines long.



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Re: [EVDL] Turning over a "Used Leaf" :-)

2014-12-23 Thread Peter Eckhoff via EV


Cor,

Just below the $3200 eBay ad you referenced (Part N0. 7435-3318) below 
was a link to a $99 J1772 EVSE 30A EV 16' Charging cord 120/240V Level 2 
UL (Part No. 7335-9426)  From the pictures, they almost look the same 
internally.  Not sure what the actual difference is between the two 
other than length and asking price.


I tried to copy the URL but it came back as being several lines long.

On 12/22/2014 2:18 AM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

I actually bought a dozen 48V 30-40A power supplies (from file servers)
to make 1 or 2 12kW supplies (maxing out a NEMA 14-50) and looked into
the work
that was done on reverse engineering the Leaf's Chademo communication.
It was at the same time that EMW (Electric Motor Werks) also started to
look
into modifying their 15kW charger for the same Chademo communication and
so
I did not follow through, since EMW is usually better equipped and
faster in
doing this kind of stuff than a lone hacker like me.
I did buy the CAN-bus equipped micro that was used in the experiements
that
allowed the Leaf to be charged, but did not put too much effort in
decoding
the communication (which would help to allow a more robust
implementation)
that was logged from actual Leaf-Chademo charging sesssions.
At one point I was promised a Chademo charge plug, but that never panned
out
either, I recently saw one for sale on Ebay for an exorbitant amount,
the same company also has an inlet for sale:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHAdeMO/121522493244
Personally I am not sure that I would pay $3200 for a charge plug...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via
EV
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 10:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Turning over a "Used Leaf" :-)

It is a 2012 "SL" model, so yes, it does have the L3 "Chademo" fast
charge port.

Know of any nifty "hacks" for connecting my existing PFC-50 up to the L3

charging port? That would cut my charge time almost in half, if someone
has figured out how to do it.

Bill D.

On 12/21/2014 11:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Does it have the L3 Chademo inlet?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via
EV
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 9:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Turning over a "Used Leaf" :-)

Hi Chris,

   It is really nice just the way it is. Plenty of pep. It handles
quite well. Can't think of a thing I might change.

   Perhaps if there is some aftermarket upgrade to make the charger
bigger, I might consider doing that.

   Bill D.

On 12/21/2014 6:02 PM, Chris Meier wrote:

Any plans or thoughts to modify? ;-)


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[EVDL] Don Garlits: Quest for 200 MPH in 1/4 mile on batteries



[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Quest-for-200-MPH-in-1-4-mile-on-batteries-tp4673204.html
]

The video Cor provided is from May of this year:

[video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvzBkan4j1w#t=251
"Big Daddy" Don Garlits SR37 Quest for 200MPH on Batteries
Bradenton Motorsports Park May 16, 2014
"Big Daddy" Don Garlits and The Quest for 200MPH on Batteries Team at
Bradenton Motorsports Park set 1/4 mile electric vehicle world record!! Mike
Gerry inspired, piloted by "Big Daddy" Don Garlits, chassis by Brad Hadman,
power supplied by Shawn Lawwless (Lawless Industries), Derek Barger (High
Tech System), custom GE motors, Zilla controllers, and comfort by Jeff
Garvin. Media contact- thequestfor200...@gmail.com
]


The SR-37 stands for Swamp Rat 37 which I originally posted on in 2013: 

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Big-Daddy-s-Swamp-Rat-37-EV-Racer-built-by-Lawless-tp4660694.html
EVLN: Big-Daddy's Swamp Rat #37 EV Racer built by Lawless
"Big Daddy" Don Garlits is a legend in drag racing
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/16/don-garlits-drives-electric-swamp-rat-37-in-preparation-of-reco/
[image] Don Garlits drives electric Swamp Rat #37 in preparation of record
attempt By Domenick Yoney Jan 16 2013 [image http...
Jan 19, 2013

 and again in May 2014 with a video:

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Big-Daddy-Don-Garlits-Swamp-Rat-37-electric-dragster-video-tp4669499.html
EVLN: “Big Daddy” Don Garlits Swamp Rat 37 electric dragster (video)
'White Zombie proving the EV haters wrong. There’s even a a National
Electric Drag Racing Association'
http://www.wired.com/2014/04/don-garlits-electric-dragster/ This 2,000
Horsepower Electric Dragster Could Hit 200 MPH By Alexander George 04.29.14
[images / Randy Cannon http...
May 13 2014

[video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pQgY09bfjA
SW37 HTS 1500kW First Launch.MOV
HighTechSystems Dec 23, 2012
Don Garlits first Launch after burnout. High Tech Systems LLC racing battery
not turned up all the way. Let off at 300ft mark coasted through. Battery
current set to a max 800amps per controller total of 2400amps. The
controllers can be turned up to a maximum of 2000amps each latter. Motor
voltage set 340volts for each pair or 170volt per motor. The dragster was
set to 1/2 power max for these runs.

60ft was 1.138
330ft was 3.222
1/8thmile was 5.485
95.60MPH
1000ft 8.165
ET 11.328
61.86MPH
]


The above 2012 video shows what looks like the R&D version of the more
refined version shown in the 2014 video Cor provided (at the top). 
In the 2014 video the SR-37 had problems, frustrating Don Garlits.

In the middle of the video, Don Garlits raced a Tesla-S, happy with its
performance. 

And at the end of the video, the SR-37 was still down and Don Garlits vented
his racing-desire frustration by saying, 'drop a nitro into it' (meaning
yank the EV guts and put in an ice = he wants to race).




For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3DEVLN%2Bbrucedp2%26days%3D0%26sort%3Ddate


{brucedp.150m.com}



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[EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-S Battery-Swap Pilot Program



http://www.ubergizmo.com/2014/12/tesla-set-to-kick-off-model-s-battery-swap-pilot-program/
Tesla Set To Kick Off Model S Battery Swap Pilot Program
By Edwin Kee on 12/19/2014 

[image  
http://cdn2.ubergizmo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/tesla-model-s-battery.jpg
(body-less chassis) tesla model s battery
]

Tesla has rolled up their sleeves and are more than ready to kick off their
battery swapping technology for the Model S electric vehicle. Basically,
this particular “campaign”, if you can call it that, would allow users to
swap out their battery instead of charging it whenever they are on the road
– providing them with an option for a quick fill up which surprisingly,
would take less amount of time as opposed to filling up a standard car with
gas at the station. This pilot program will launch in Harris Ranch,
California, where it is happening at a new facility that is located directly
across the street from the Supercharger within the vicinity.

The pilot project would be an initial demonstration of how the system will
work when it is in full swing, where it has been specially designed to test
the technical aspects of the procedure, and to check out whether Tesla
drivers would prefer to recharge the Model S’ current battery pack, since
the swap will cost “slightly less than a full tank of gasoline for a premium
sedan”, according to Tesla. Of course, who are we to say that this will not
change down the road, but the swap will include labor and facility costs
which charging does not.

Apart from that, one would need to set an appointment in advance, and the
swapping process right now takes three minutes to complete, with Tesla
looking to reduce that time to just a minute. I wonder what happens if the
swapped battery runs into issues halfway – will there be a free emergency
towing service by Tesla?
[© ubergizmo.com]
...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095998_tesla-battery-swap-pilot-program-launches-next-week-exclusive
Tesla Battery-Swap Pilot Program To Launch Next Week In California
By John Voelcker  Dec 19, 2014
...
http://consumerist.com/2014/12/19/tesla-launching-battery-swap-pilot-programfor-some-model-s-owners-next-week/
Tesla Launching Battery Swap Pilot Program For Some Model S Owners Next Week
By Mary Beth Quirk December 19, 2014 
...
http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/tesla-motors-inc-tslas-battery-swap-station-a-grave-threat-for-traditional-automakers-336975/
Tesla Motors Inc ’s Battery Swap Station: A Grave Threat For Traditional
Automakers
By Usman Rafi  December 19, 2014
...
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/12/20/tesla-motors-incs-battery-swapping-is-finally-a-re.aspx
Tesla Motors Inc.'s Battery Swapping Is Finally a Reality
By Daniel Sparks | December 20, 2014   
...
http://uncovermichigan.com/content/22415-tesla-launching-battery-swap-pilot-program
Tesla launching battery-swap pilot program
by Paul Gardner  12/20/2014
...
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2014/12/22/tesla-model-s-battery-swap-pilot-program-online-soon-california/
Tesla Model S Battery Swap Pilot Program – Online Soon in California
Benji Jerew December 22, 2014




For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3DEVLN%2Bbrucedp2%26days%3D0%26sort%3Ddate

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/legislature/wyoming-considers-fuel-tax-for-non-gas-vehicles/article_ed113010-ef96-55a0-adc2-718aa8fcdc5f.html
$50 Wyoming road-tax for fee for electric vehicles

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/1053451-469/electric-cars-remain-cheaper-per-mile-even.html
Electric cars remain cheaper per mile, even with cheaper pump price$

http://vancitybuzz.com/2014/12/tesla-motors-opens-supercharger-hope/
Tesla Motors opens Supercharger L3 EVSE in hopebc.ca
+
EVLN: Tesla-S, Australian Review> Fascinating


{brucedp.150m.com}



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[EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-S, Australian Review> Fascinating



'My god, is the Model S great to drive'

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/12/tesla-motors-model-s-australian-review/
Tesla Motors Model S: Australian Review
Campbell Simpson  [20141218]

[images  
http://edge.alluremedia.com.au/m/g/2014/12/270A8279.jpg
The Tesla Model S is the most incredible car that I have ever driven

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]

I say that because the Model S is such a fascinating vehicle to drive, to
sit inside, to be driven around in, to look at, to be a part of the culture
of. Buy one and you won’t ever pay for petrol again. Buy one and you’re
buying into the first car to be a rolling beta test, updated monthly with
new technology and new software features. Buy one and you’ll have arguably
the most innovative and important piece of steel and aluminium (and lithium
and graphite) on four round pieces of vulcanised rubber in a long time.

In early November, I had the chance to take a Model S, Tesla Motors’
$100,000-plus all-electric sports sedan, out for a day of driving around
Sydney. My particular poison was a circa-$150,000 Model S Performance P85+.
If you’re reading this review, you probably know a little about the car
already, but I’ll get into detail on that further on. On my test drive day,
I picked up Giz editor Luke Hopewell from the CBD, we drove up to the city’s
Northern Beaches to meet another Model S owner, around the North Shore, and
down through the city itself, turning heads and impressing punters on the
side of the road as we went.

This review, obviously, is based on my one day’s experience with the car.
It’s experiential. It’s not comprehensive, it’s not expert, and it’s not
conclusive — even though I have been following Tesla’s journey to Australia
for quite a while now. I’ve driven a Model S since, at Tesla’s Sydney
showroom launch, but that was similarly for a short period of time. I
haven’t had the chance to experience living with the Model S — charging it
on either Supercharger or home-installed wall charger, driving it to and
from work every day, taking it out on the open road for a holiday, and so
on. I’ll leave those experiences for the owners themselves to share.

The Company
Tesla Motors (relatively) quietly entered the electric automotive game in
2006, with the first generation of the Roadster released in the US, based on
an all-electric modification of the Lotus Elise sportscar platform. A few
Roadsters made their way down under, but by and large we didn’t see Tesla’s
first car in the country apart from in the hands of super-enthusiasts like
Internode founder Simon Hackett.

Fast forward eight years, and Tesla Motors has launched its large-scale
Australian operations with a bang, delivering the first few Signature
edition Model S all-electric sedans to customers. More cars are on their
way, there are plenty of customers lined up with pre-orders placed, and the
car itself is constantly evolving as the weeks and months go on.

Tesla has its fingers in a lot of pies; a quickly expanding Supercharger
network in the US and Europe and soon in Australia, a huge investment in an
electric b

[EVDL] Buy an EVSE for the holidays> tax-credit, e-motorcycle credit killed