date:20150407

 You mean Diebold?

Et cetera, et cetera ...

Folks, please check your politics at the door.  If you're going to start 
flame wars, at least start them over EVs, not politics.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

To bring this thread more or less back on topic, I suppose self-driving cars 
might have one intriguing benefit.  When they know the exact route and 
conditions - as they probably would have to - they might have a better 
chance at predicting whether you have enough charge in your EV to get there, 
don't you think? 

But overall, I remain skeptical.  Unless we somehow create a totally closed 
system, excluding all human-operated vehicles, humans, and stray animals 
from the highway system, its chaos and unpredictability will be a dire 
strain on any computing system.  Heck, it is for humans, and our brains are 
pretty sophisticated computers.  

So, they will inevitably fail - perhaps often.  Humans barely accept 
fallibility from other humans, let alone machines that they pay for.  They 
also have this propensity for insisting that when something goes wrong, 
SOMEONE MUST PAY. 

Besides, we've had cars without drivers for CENTURIES.  Europeans use them a 
lot more than we do.  They run on rails, sometimes above ground and 
sometimes below.  They're pulled by locomotives, most of them ELECTRIC.  

Automated rail is a mostly closed and highly controllable system.  That's 
where fully driverless transportation is practical, with a low accident 
rate.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] EVLN: CA Sen Gaines eliminating rebates on $40+k cars affects Tesla

2015-04-07 Thread brucedp5 via EV

http://dealbreaker.com/2015/04/california-might-make-it-prohibitively-expensive-to-buy-a-100k-car/
California Might Make It Prohibitively Expensive To Buy A $100K Car
By Thornton McEnery [20150403]

So you’re an on-the-go millionaire who is both ecologically and
aesthetically aware? Oh, you’re going to need a Tesla.

But pricing on the basic Tesla Roadster starts at $101,500 and while it
might appear that way, you’re not actually made of money. If you live in
California though, there’s some good news! The state offers subsidies for
folks like you that want to travel in luxury while saving the world.

The incentives are intended to rid the roads of gas-guzzling vehicles
that spew carbon pollution by making electric cars more more affordable to a
broad range of consumers. Surveys indicate that 77 percent of buyers in
California earn more than $100,000 a year.

Thanks Uncle Jerry! Let’s put some chrome rims on this gorgeous Model S and
get you silently onto the freeway.

Oh, wait…

“It’s hard for the average Californian to understand why someone buying
a $100,000 car should get a rebate,” said California state Senator Ted
Gaines, a Republican who has proposed eliminating rebates on cars that cost
more than $40,000. “That’s the same question I posed to myself, and it was
hard to justify.”

Turns out that California (America’s favorite barely solvent state) has
handed out $34 million in rebates to buyers of Tesla cars since 2010 alone.
That’s the kind of figure that leads to populist uprisings, especially since
H.G. Wells character come alive/Tesla CEO Elon Musk decided to build his $5
billion battery factory in neighboring Nevada.

So California is maybe not going to help you out with this purchase, but you
should still consider buying a piece of the future, right? Hey, you can even
buy one used off of The Woz.

Apple Inc. co-founder Steve Wozniak, who’s worth an estimated $100
million, has bought two Tesla cars. He accepted the incentives, he said, but
they played no role in his decision to buy the vehicles.

What’s that? You want to see something in a Chevy Volt?
[© dealbreaker.com]
...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-02/tesla-buyers-making-twice-u-s-average-find-rebates-under-fire
Tesla Buyers Making Twice U.S. Average See Rebates in Danger
[2015-04-02]
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Uncle+Jerry%22+Brown
Uncle Jerry = CA Gov Jerry Brown

http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-chevrolet-volt-make-consumer-reports-top-picks-2015-list/
Tesla-S EV Volt pih Make Consumer Reports' “Top Picks ...
by Eric Loveday [2015-04-03]

For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_pagenode=413529query=subject%3Aevln+NOT+subject%3Aredays=0sort=date

http://www.engadget.com/2015/04/03/georgia-gas-ev-tax/
Georgia wants EV owners to pay for saving the planet
...
http://www.treehugger.com/environmental-policy/georgia-wants-ev-owners-pay-more-oregon-wants-them-pay-less.html
Who's right? GA wants EV owners to pay more, OR wants them to pay less
...
http://www.myfoxal.com/story/28718176/owners-of-electric-cars-getting-zapped-in-the-wallet
Owners of electric cars getting zapped in the wallet
...
http://clatl.com/freshloaf/archives/2015/03/30/electric-vehicle-owners-likely-to-lose-out-in-georgias-transportation-plan
EV owners likely to lose out in Georgia's transportation plan

http://www.powersportsbusiness.com/top-stories/2015/03/27/bad-boy-buggies-takes-aim-at-powersports/
Electric badboybuggies.com takes aim @hunting, powersports beyond
http://www.powersportsbusiness.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/0415Focus-Bad-Boy-Trail.jpg

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/energy-environment/237687-usps-can-lead-fleet-vehicle-revolution
USPS can lead electric-powered fleet vehicle revolution

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/city-officials-will-unveil-first-of-several-new-electric-car-charger-stations
L32 EVSE installed in Cincinnati OH
+
EVLN: NZ journey into Leaf EV driving

{brucedp.150m.com}

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[EVDL] EVLN: Tesla Looking to Build Second Gigafactory.jp (?)

2015-04-07 Thread brucedp5 via EV

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/tesla-gigafactory-japan/
Tesla Looking to Build Second Gigafactory in Japan
Sarah Higman April 2, 2015

[image
www.greenoptimistic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/tesla-gigafactory-japan.jpg
(photoshopped)
]

Hot-giggaty! According to a Bloomberg report, Tesla executives are in talks
with their Japanese partners about potentially building a second Gigafactory
on their shores.

Kurt Kelty, Tesla’s director of battery technology has been in Osaka
praising Japan’s view towards technology. ‘Tesla looks to Japan for the
world’s most advanced technology,’ Kelty said at an event hosted by Osaka
Business and Investment Center.

On paper, Japan is an ideal site for another gigafactory. Tesla Motors
already sources many parts from Japanese companies, with Japanese suppliers
only seconded by North American producers.

Japan is also one of the largest markets for electric cars and quite a
wealthy country – perfect conditions for a Tesla takeover.

Lastly, Japanese company Panasonic is a large stakeholder in Tesla’s first
gigafactory, currently being constructed in Nevada.

However Japan’s notoriously conservative approach to business may not be a
good fit for Tesla’s accelerated timelines. In fact, an unnamed Japanese
company, when pushed for higher production cautioned Tesla to ‘scale down
its plans for expansion.’

Kelty alluded to this cautious approach in his talk ‘We need to take risks,
otherwise there will be no prosperity in business. We take risks, but it
seems not the case in Japan.’

It would make sense for Tesla Motors to bypass Japanese suppliers altogether
and build their own factory, however whether Tesla can afford to lose
Japanese support remains to be seen.

At the speed Tesla Motors Inc. moves I’m sure it won’t be long until we find
out the results of their recent courting attempts.
[© 2015 The Green Optimistic]
...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-27/tesla-pushes-japanese-suppliers-as-it-seeks-battery-partners
(Bloomberg report)

{brucedp.150m.com}

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[EVDL] EVLN: NZ journey into Electric Leaf driving

2015-04-07 Thread brucedp5 via EV



http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/96992-journey-to-allelectric-driving.html
Journey to all-electric driving
02 Apr, 2015 | By Hunter Wells

[image  
http://www.sunlive.co.nz/assets/images/site/Electric-Cars-Ross-S1513-HW.jpg
Ross Brown is a self-professed ‘techno-nut' who loves gadgets. Big,
expensive gadgets.
]

His latest toy cost him $20,000. But he'd tell you it's more of an
investment in the inexorable global drive toward emission free motoring than
a toy.

Ross Brown with his new investment – a 100 per cent electric car.

It's a 100 per cent electric car - a Nissan Leaf. The green organs of a
plant are such a misnomer for something that is black, hot and fast.

Ross is just one of 75,000 Leaf owners worldwide but ‘after a bit of an
experiment' he's now an electric proselyte, proud and preachy.

And straight away he wants to put to bed a widely-held misconception that
all-electric cars are sluggish and that you have to wait for them to crank
up.

“I put my foot down and it throws me back in the seat,” he says.

The Leaf is powered by an 80kW synchronous electric motor with a 24kW
lithium-ion battery with 3.3kW on-board charger. That's manual speak.

Ross Brown translates.

“It's got the power, grunt and oomph of any good car, and probably better
than most,” he says.

This from a man who owned a two-litre turbo-diesel Audi.

“Certainly as much grunt as that car.”  

He dabbled with the idea of an all-electric car a couple of years ago. He
took one for a romp, he couldn't help himself. “It was fascinating and
surprisingly easy to drive.”

Ross had an electrically-charged epiphany. He stored the information. And
when he took a career shift, selling houses, driving 500km a week and
spending $120 on gas, the all-electric option became a very realistic,
economic one.

“It costs me $30 to $35 a week on power to recharge the car,” he admits, “a
quarter of the [gas] running cost. You certainly notice the savings.” And
these days he only visits the service station for coffee.

But what about the 120km ‘max' before the car has to be plugged in for a
recharge?

“No it's not a bother, it's not a nuisance. I have pretty much got distances
sussed and so it's a novelty factor at the moment. In the three weeks I have
had the car I haven't gone near running out of power.”

The smart car also alerts the driver they have 15km to 20km motoring left
and then as a back-up it kicks into ‘turtle mode' – 50km/h to 70km/h – until
you find somewhere to park off the road or plug in.

The car has become like Ross's iPhone and a raft of other gadgets that have
to be plugged in before he goes to bed each night. “It's all fun and quite
amusing at this stage.”

It was destiny that Ross Brown should own an electric car.

Way back in the 1940s when electric cars were fanciful things Ross's Dad and
Uncle built their own electric powered scooter from aeroplane parts. “The
Silent Ghost it was called, and it was certainly a first for Pahiatua,” he
explains.

“I am no pioneer in this field – there are a few all-electric cars around –
but I understand mine was the first all-electric to be vinned [given a
Vehicle Identification Number] at the local testing station.”

He is certainly part of a global trend.

“You need some early buy-in to get something going. If no-one adopted new
ideas there would be nothing to adopt.”

The car certainly requires a change of thinking – but it's not complicated
thinking.

“There are a few funny things. There are no gears so there's no gear shift.
It's just a knob that takes the car into drive and away you go.”

And there's that silence, that palpable silence. A car ghosting in and out
of parks, cruising at 100km/h and not a peep. The only noise is the slamming
of doors and something called a pedestrian alarm. He hasn't figured that out
yet.

“I'm not a greenie but it's nice to be part of the green wave – the emission
free motoring revolution.”

After fuel savings the green factor is the big pitch – 170 million kilograms
of Co2 saved globally.

It would take a forest of more than 12 million trees to process all that
Co2.

And the amount saved would be equal to a gas powered car circling the earth
35,000 times. Fascinating if unprovable.

“It's going to be big,” predicts Ross. He is an owner and a devotee.

“In a country with all the renewable hydro and wind generated electricity
you'd think they would be doing more to get people into electric cars.
Rebates and subsidies like they do overseas.”

In the meantime Ross is going to Napier – 100km at a time – to show his
90-plus pioneer electric scooter-maker Uncle just how far electric motors
have come.

It'll also give Ross time for further reflection, if he needs it.

“It was a test of faith really,” he admits. “I was quite prepared to say
that experiment hasn't worked and put the car straight back on the market.
But it hasn't come to that.”

By the way – today Ross got his first power bill since buying the black
phantom. It hadn't changed.
[© sunlive.co.nz]




For

Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

2015-04-07 Thread Paul Dove via EV

Now that's funny. I don't care who you are.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 6, 2015, at 7:02 PM, Lawrence Winiarski lawrence_winiar...@yahoo.com 
 wrote:
 
 
 Maybe this will work.
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8yE3_Vw144
 
  
 
 
 From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 4:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] self driving cars
 
 You mean Diebold?
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
  On Apr 6, 2015, at 2:07 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
  wrote:
  
  
  Yeah, 
  
  Maybe these same people would accept some sort of artificial intelligence 
  program which would analyse their facebook postingsand social media and 
  automatically vote for them in elections.If they will trust their lives 
  going 70 mph to some computer algorithm by some nameless programmers who 
  work for some corporation (who can't even make a web browser that doesn't 
  fail), why wouldn't they trust a corporation to automatically vote for them?
  
  After all...what could go wrong?
  Am I missing something?
  
  
  
   From: Electric Blue auto convertions via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
  To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
  Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 11:09 AM
  Subject: [EVDL] self driving cars
  
  The day Im forced to get into a self driving car is when I take my shot gun 
  and blow it away . the very thought if a SDC makes me vomit 
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

2015-04-07 Thread Dan Baker via EV

I've installed an arduino based autopilot on my solar boat last year and
it's been an interesting addition.  It's not that smart despite having an
internal gyroscope, GPS, compass but I do like it, it will maintain a
course even if there is a weight shift or wind change that would normally
sway the boat off course.  One other great benefit is hands freed up to
throw a hook and line. I also use it occasionally to follow me in my other
boats such as when kayaking - makes a great pit stop when you want to get
out.
One interesting note around this technology especially with cars is stereo
systems- I had to mount the autopilot as far away as possible from the
speakers as the magnetic and the pumping of them would throw the autopilot
off big time.  Those who put multi- thousand watt systems in their cars or
drive close to one of these ghetto boxes on wheels will render their
autopilots into a circling nervous driver :-)  I'm sure the technology will
learn to overcome these issues but something to consider.

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Now that's funny. I don't care who you are.

 Sent from my iPhone

  On Apr 6, 2015, at 7:02 PM, Lawrence Winiarski 
 lawrence_winiar...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 
  Maybe this will work.
 
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8yE3_Vw144
 
 
 
 
  From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
  Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 4:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] self driving cars
 
  You mean Diebold?
 
  Sent from my iPhone
 
   On Apr 6, 2015, at 2:07 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
  
  
   Yeah,
  
   Maybe these same people would accept some sort of artificial
 intelligence program which would analyse their facebook postingsand social
 media and automatically vote for them in elections.If they will trust
 their lives going 70 mph to some computer algorithm by some nameless
 programmers who work for some corporation (who can't even make a web
 browser that doesn't fail), why wouldn't they trust a corporation to
 automatically vote for them?
  
   After all...what could go wrong?
   Am I missing something?
  
  
  
From: Electric Blue auto convertions via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
   To: ev@lists.evdl.org
   Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 11:09 AM
   Subject: [EVDL] self driving cars
  
   The day Im forced to get into a self driving car is when I take my
 shot gun and blow it away . the very thought if a SDC makes me vomit
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Re: [EVDL] SDCs

2015-04-07 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV

On Apr 7, 2015, at 7:17 AM, Electric Blue auto convertions  via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 I dont care what gas cost, never hugged a tree nor will. I have NO political 
 affiliation, will not condemn any politician, nor point a finger, cus, thers 
 always 3 pointing back

You just hate lawyers.

- Mark (not a lawyer)
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[EVDL] Science Envy magazine

2015-04-07 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Eva Hankansson (my wife) with a graduate school partner have started a 
science e-zine called Science Envy:

http://scienceenvy.com/

They write articles on popular topics and  explain the highly 
technical aspects in ordinary terms.
It is interesting that her EV related and racing related articles have 
so far generated the most interest. Apparently, what Eva knows best is 
what she writes about the best, or at least is the most popular with the 
readers.


The most technical article she has written so for is by far the 
most popular. It is an article about how to estimate the center of 
pressure (Cp) and the the center of gravity (Cg) of a vehicle, and how 
important that relative placement is. Race car engineering: 400+ mph – 
how to stay straight and on track? We thought it would be too 
technical, but apparently not. 
http://scienceenvy.com/race-car-engineering-400-mph-how-to-stay-straight-and-on-track/


Bill D.
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Re: [EVDL] Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial

Are you talking about the motorcycle front tire:
http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/28190/i/michelin-city-grip-front-tire
That can be bought at most motor cycle stores.
If you are talking about a *car* (square, not round like a bike tire)
then I am not sure, I saw only a few references and mostly about the solar race.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 1:06 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial

The Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial is the tire used by solar racing teams.  
Anyone know where to get them?  Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial

On Apr 7, 2015, at 1:05 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 The Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial is the tire used by solar racing teams.  
 Anyone know where to get them?

I'd first directly contact one of the teams that you know used said tire and 
ask them where they got theirs.

Next, Michelin should have a customer service number where they can tell you 
which dealers typically stock them.

But, if those both turn out to be dead ends, any national tire chain should 
have no trouble ordering pretty much any tire for you. They're not necessarily 
going to be the absolute cheapest source, but chances are good that any premium 
you might pay is going to be both minimal compared with other sources and well 
in line with how much time you'd personally have to spend chasing down any 
source, let alone a cheaper one.

I've had lots of great luck with Discount Tire over the years such that they're 
the only ones I go to for anything. Their warranty service is superlative.

They'll also get you wheels to fit the tires

b
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[EVDL] Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial

2015-04-07 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV

The Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial is the tire used by solar racing teams.  
Anyone know where to get them?  Lawrence Rhodes 
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[EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

Does anybody know any more about this research?

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html 

Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.

It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all 
about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how 
much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand charge 
cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is bendable, in 
what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They show the battery 
being drilled into with minimal ill effect.

I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a super-fast 
charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast discharge rate. It 
gives the appearance of being technology within the reach of an hobbyist to 
manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally flexible.

In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself, at 
home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles, then to 
stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.

Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

2015-04-07 Thread Peter Gabrielsson via EV

It sure looks interesting, more information here:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature14340.html
If I did the math correctly it seems like it's in the 120-140 wh/kg range.
Certainly usable for EVs.

Hopefully it makes it out of the lab.

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

Does anybody know any more about this research?

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html

Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.

It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at
all about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating
how much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand
charge cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is
bendable, in what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They
show the battery being drilled into with minimal ill effect.

I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a
super-fast charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast
discharge rate. It gives the appearance of being technology within the
reach of an hobbyist to manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite
literally flexible.

In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this,
myself, at home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for
vehicles, then to stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.

Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Indeed...I just checked the abstract and it cites 70 mAh/g. It's an unfair 
comparison because of all the extra hardware from the box and what-not, but a 
CALB 180 Ah battery weighs 5.6 kg, which works out to 32 mAh/g. That they're in 
the same order of magnitude tells me this may well be competitive...if it's not 
snake oil

b

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Peter Gabrielsson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 You may be confusing power and energy
 On Apr 7, 2015 2:59 PM, Bill Dennis via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per
 kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need
 more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve
 the cells, of course.
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

I don’t think I’m confusing them.  Both units in the paragraph I pasted refer 
to Watts per kg.  That’s power, not energy.  But please correct me if I’m wrong.

 

Bill

 

 

From: Peter Gabrielsson [mailto:peter.gabriels...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 4:03 PM
To: Bill Dennis; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

 

You may be confusing power and energy

On Apr 7, 2015 2:59 PM, Bill Dennis via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per
kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need
more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve
the cells, of course.

Bill

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to
conventional batteries

Does anybody know any more about this research?

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html

Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.

It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all
about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how
much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand
charge cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is
bendable, in what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They show
the battery being drilled into with minimal ill effect.

I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a
super-fast charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast
discharge rate. It gives the appearance of being technology within the reach
of an hobbyist to manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally
flexible.

In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself,
at home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles,
then to stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.

Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Ben,
the electrolyte is not specified other than the phrase intercalation of 
chloroaluminate anions in the graphite

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
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prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: Ben Goren [mailto:b...@trumpetpower.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:40 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

If I have the back of the envelope right...if you make 100g cells, package 72 
of them together for a single 144-volt super-cell, and then parallel'd sixteen 
of them into a battery...just the battery bits (without packaging, wiring, or 
the like) would weigh ~250 pounds, it'd have about 16 kWh capacity...and it 
could put out 6400 amps for almost a megawatt of total power.

Something about that tells me it's gotta be too good to be true -- either I 
slipped a decimal or misinterpreted something or they're selling snake oil or 
_something._

But, if that's basically what this is...then I can see the NEDRA crowd being 
all over this.

Anybody have any experience with the substances they describe? How readily 
available are they, how nasty are they to work with, and so on...?

b

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Actually,
 the Nature article quotes 4 Amp per gram, so if a 2V cell weighs 1kg 
 then it could produce 4,000A or 8kW per kg
 
 The Capacity is quoted as 70mAh per gram, which is 140 Wh per kg (again, at 
 the expected 2V cell voltage).
 
 Note that all these numbers are the bare cell, so to compare with a 
 CALB 180Ah cell you'd either need to subtract the CALB's housing and 
 connection hardware weight, or estimate how much it would add to the Alu 
 battery to make a similar rugged and packaged end product.
 By all accounts, it looks like very competitive to Li cells, but all 
 research takes many years before you can place an order for commercial 
 available product...
 If it is really cheaper, better, safer, then we can see it break through 
 sooner.
 Time will tell.
 
 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless
 
 office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
 XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
 www.proxim.com
 
 
 This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
 proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
 message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
 use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
 prohibited.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis 
 via EV
 Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 2:59 PM
 To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
 
 Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per 
 kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need 
 more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve 
 the cells, of course.
 
 Bill
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via 
 EV
 Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:11 PM
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative 
 to conventional batteries
 
 Does anybody know any more about this research?
 
 http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.h
 tml
 
 Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.
 
 It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all 
 about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how 
 much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand 
 charge cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is 
 bendable, in what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They show 
 the battery being drilled into with minimal ill effect.
 
 I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a 
 super-fast charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast 
 discharge rate. It gives the appearance of being technology within the reach 
 of an hobbyist to manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally 
 flexible.
 
 In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself, 
 at home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles, 
 then to stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.
 
 Any experts out

Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

2015-04-07 Thread Peter Gabrielsson via EV

You may be confusing power and energy
On Apr 7, 2015 2:59 PM, Bill Dennis via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per
kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need
more of them to get the same power. That might get better as they improve
the cells, of course.

Bill

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to
conventional batteries

Does anybody know any more about this research?

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html

Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.

It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all
about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how
much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand
charge cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is
bendable, in what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They
show
the battery being drilled into with minimal ill effect.

I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a
super-fast charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast
discharge rate. It gives the appearance of being technology within the
reach
of an hobbyist to manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally
flexible.

In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself,
at home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles,
then to stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.

Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

2015-04-07 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

If they're claiming charge rates of 1 minute, I think the 40w/kg must be 
referring to something else.  It would seem it should be order(s) of 
magnitude higher.


There's other Al-ion research going on at Oak Ridge.  There, Gilbert 
Brown claims to have a cell with an energy *density* of 1060wh/kg.  I 
don't know if his work is related to that at Stanford.


http://web.ornl.gov/adm/partnerships/events/presentations/spark_aluminum_ion_battery.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery

Peri


-- Original Message --
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Peter Gabrielsson peter.gabriels...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org

Sent: 07-Apr-15 3:12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Indeed...I just checked the abstract and it cites 70 mAh/g. It's an 
unfair comparison because of all the extra hardware from the box and 
what-not, but a CALB 180 Ah battery weighs 5.6 kg, which works out to 
32 mAh/g. That they're in the same order of magnitude tells me this may 
well be competitive...if it's not snake oil


b

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Peter Gabrielsson via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:



 You may be confusing power and energy
 On Apr 7, 2015 2:59 PM, Bill Dennis via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:


 Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of 
electricity per
 kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so 
you'd need
 more of them to get the same power. That might get better as they 
improve

 the cells, of course.

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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Here's the URL to the article I quoted, plus the paragraph from the article
itself:

http://www.engadget.com/2015/04/06/stanfords-battery-charges-in-one-minute/

 Unlike earlier aluminum batteries, which generally failed after only about
100 recharge cycles, Stanford's prototype can cycle more than 7,500 times
without any capacity loss -- 7.5 times longer than your average li-ion. The
aluminum-ion cell isn't perfect (yet) as it can only produce about 2 volts,
far less than the 3.6V that lithium-ion an muster. Plus aluminum cells only
carry 40 watts of electricity per kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206
W/kg power density.

Bill

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 4:29 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Actually,
the Nature article quotes 4 Amp per gram, so if a 2V cell weighs 1kg then it
could produce 4,000A or 8kW per kg

The Capacity is quoted as 70mAh per gram, which is 140 Wh per kg (again, at
the expected 2V cell voltage).

Note that all these numbers are the bare cell, so to compare with a CALB
180Ah cell you'd either need to subtract the CALB's housing and connection
hardware weight, or estimate how much it would add to the Alu battery to
make a similar rugged and packaged end product.
By all accounts, it looks like very competitive to Li cells, but all
research takes many years before you can place an order for commercial
available product...
If it is really cheaper, better, safer, then we can see it break through
sooner.
Time will tell.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 2:59 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per
kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need
more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve
the cells, of course.

Bill 

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to
conventional batteries

Does anybody know any more about this research?

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html 

Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.

It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all
about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how
much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand
charge cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is
bendable, in what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They show
the battery being drilled into with minimal ill effect.

I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a
super-fast charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast
discharge rate. It gives the appearance of being technology within the reach
of an hobbyist to manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally
flexible.

In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself,
at home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles,
then to stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.

Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per
kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need
more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve
the cells, of course.

Bill 

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to
conventional batteries

Does anybody know any more about this research?

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html 

Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.

It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all
about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how
much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand
charge cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is
bendable, in what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They show
the battery being drilled into with minimal ill effect.

I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a
super-fast charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast
discharge rate. It gives the appearance of being technology within the reach
of an hobbyist to manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally
flexible.

In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself,
at home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles,
then to stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.

Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Actually,
the Nature article quotes 4 Amp per gram, so if a 2V cell weighs 1kg then it 
could produce 4,000A or 8kW per kg

The Capacity is quoted as 70mAh per gram, which is 140 Wh per kg (again, at the 
expected 2V cell voltage).

Note that all these numbers are the bare cell, so to compare with a CALB 180Ah 
cell you'd either need to
subtract the CALB's housing and connection hardware weight, or estimate how 
much it would add to the Alu
battery to make a similar rugged and packaged end product.
By all accounts, it looks like very competitive to Li cells, but all research 
takes many years before
you can place an order for commercial available product...
If it is really cheaper, better, safer, then we can see it break through sooner.
Time will tell.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 2:59 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per 
kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need 
more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve the 
cells, of course.

Bill 

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to 
conventional batteries

Does anybody know any more about this research?

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html 

Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.

It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all 
about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how 
much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand charge 
cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is bendable, in 
what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They show the battery 
being drilled into with minimal ill effect.

I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a super-fast 
charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast discharge rate. It 
gives the appearance of being technology within the reach of an hobbyist to 
manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally flexible.

In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself, at 
home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles, then to 
stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.

Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Actually, the end of the sentence says power density, so I think that they are 
using the correct metric after all, only their quote is completely opposite to 
Nature's, so the first question still stands. Who to trust.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:36 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Who do you trust - Nature or this gatget article that has no clue that 
electricity is not stored in Watts but in Watt hours...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:34 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Here's the URL to the article I quoted, plus the paragraph from the article
itself:

http://www.engadget.com/2015/04/06/stanfords-battery-charges-in-one-minute/

 Unlike earlier aluminum batteries, which generally failed after only about
100 recharge cycles, Stanford's prototype can cycle more than 7,500 times 
without any capacity loss -- 7.5 times longer than your average li-ion. The 
aluminum-ion cell isn't perfect (yet) as it can only produce about 2 volts, far 
less than the 3.6V that lithium-ion an muster. Plus aluminum cells only carry 
40 watts of electricity per kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg 
power density.

Bill

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 4:29 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Actually,
the Nature article quotes 4 Amp per gram, so if a 2V cell weighs 1kg then it 
could produce 4,000A or 8kW per kg

The Capacity is quoted as 70mAh per gram, which is 140 Wh per kg (again, at the 
expected 2V cell voltage).

Note that all these numbers are the bare cell, so to compare with a CALB 180Ah 
cell you'd either need to subtract the CALB's housing and connection hardware 
weight, or estimate how much it would add to the Alu battery to make a similar 
rugged and packaged end product.
By all accounts, it looks like very competitive to Li cells, but all research 
takes many years before you can place an order for commercial available 
product...
If it is really cheaper, better, safer, then we can see it break through sooner.
Time will tell.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 2:59 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per 
kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need 
more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve the 
cells, of course.

Bill 

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to 
conventional batteries

Does anybody know any more about this research?

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html 

Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.

It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at

Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

On 7 Apr 2015 at 16:34, Bill Dennis via EV wrote:

 Here's the URL to the article I quoted, plus the paragraph from the article
 itself:

I see the problem.  Not your fault, though perhaps you might have been more 
skeptical. ;-) It looks like the news release's writer was either carelss or 
technically ignorant.

And to think, I used to respect journalists.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

BTW,
Even the Nature article is contradicting itself because if the cell is 2V then 
the following is wrong:
affording charging times of around one minute with a current density of ~4,000 
mA g-1 (equivalent to ~3,000 W kg-1)
Because 4A per gram is only equivalent to 3kW per kg at 0.75V

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Ben,
the electrolyte is not specified other than the phrase intercalation of 
chloroaluminate anions in the graphite

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


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-Original Message-
From: Ben Goren [mailto:b...@trumpetpower.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:40 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

If I have the back of the envelope right...if you make 100g cells, package 72 
of them together for a single 144-volt super-cell, and then parallel'd sixteen 
of them into a battery...just the battery bits (without packaging, wiring, or 
the like) would weigh ~250 pounds, it'd have about 16 kWh capacity...and it 
could put out 6400 amps for almost a megawatt of total power.

Something about that tells me it's gotta be too good to be true -- either I 
slipped a decimal or misinterpreted something or they're selling snake oil or 
_something._

But, if that's basically what this is...then I can see the NEDRA crowd being 
all over this.

Anybody have any experience with the substances they describe? How readily 
available are they, how nasty are they to work with, and so on...?

b

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Actually,
 the Nature article quotes 4 Amp per gram, so if a 2V cell weighs 1kg 
 then it could produce 4,000A or 8kW per kg
 
 The Capacity is quoted as 70mAh per gram, which is 140 Wh per kg (again, at 
 the expected 2V cell voltage).
 
 Note that all these numbers are the bare cell, so to compare with a 
 CALB 180Ah cell you'd either need to subtract the CALB's housing and 
 connection hardware weight, or estimate how much it would add to the Alu 
 battery to make a similar rugged and packaged end product.
 By all accounts, it looks like very competitive to Li cells, but all 
 research takes many years before you can place an order for commercial 
 available product...
 If it is really cheaper, better, safer, then we can see it break through 
 sooner.
 Time will tell.
 
 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless
 
 office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
 XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
 www.proxim.com
 
 
 This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
 proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
 message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
 use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
 prohibited.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis 
 via EV
 Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 2:59 PM
 To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
 
 Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per 
 kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need 
 more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve 
 the cells, of course.
 
 Bill
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via 
 EV
 Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:11 PM
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative 
 to conventional batteries
 
 Does anybody know any more about this research?
 
 http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.h
 tml
 
 Aluminum anode; graphite cathode.

Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:44 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 the electrolyte is not specified other than the phrase intercalation of 
 chloroaluminate anions in the graphite

I see that in the abstract...is that what you're referring to, or do you have 
the full article?

I've asked a friend with a subscription to send me a copy of the full article. 
I'm hoping to find enough details in there for at least somebody who's in the 
industry to be able to reverse-engineer it...and, from there, that I'll be able 
to get up to speed on that part of the industry to figure out if _I_ could 
perhaps reverse-engineer it...

b
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Re: [EVDL] Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial

2015-04-07 Thread Don Bradley via EV


http://www.eshopsem.com/boutique/manufacturer.php?id_manufacturer=3

On 4/7/2015 1:05 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

  Michelin radial 95/80 r16


--
Don Bradley
PO Box 141
Forestville, Ca. 95436

Maker of Signal Generators for Chladni Plate Tuning
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

On 7 Apr 2015 at 15:59, Bill Dennis via EV wrote:

 Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per
 kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density

You can't compare Watts/kg with Watt-hours/kg.  That's like comparing 
horsepower to gallons.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not 
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Who do you trust - Nature or this gatget article that has no clue that 
electricity is not stored in Watts
but in Watt hours...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:34 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Here's the URL to the article I quoted, plus the paragraph from the article
itself:

http://www.engadget.com/2015/04/06/stanfords-battery-charges-in-one-minute/

 Unlike earlier aluminum batteries, which generally failed after only about
100 recharge cycles, Stanford's prototype can cycle more than 7,500 times 
without any capacity loss -- 7.5 times longer than your average li-ion. The 
aluminum-ion cell isn't perfect (yet) as it can only produce about 2 volts, far 
less than the 3.6V that lithium-ion an muster. Plus aluminum cells only carry 
40 watts of electricity per kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg 
power density.

Bill

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 4:29 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Actually,
the Nature article quotes 4 Amp per gram, so if a 2V cell weighs 1kg then it 
could produce 4,000A or 8kW per kg

The Capacity is quoted as 70mAh per gram, which is 140 Wh per kg (again, at the 
expected 2V cell voltage).

Note that all these numbers are the bare cell, so to compare with a CALB 180Ah 
cell you'd either need to subtract the CALB's housing and connection hardware 
weight, or estimate how much it would add to the Alu battery to make a similar 
rugged and packaged end product.
By all accounts, it looks like very competitive to Li cells, but all research 
takes many years before you can place an order for commercial available 
product...
If it is really cheaper, better, safer, then we can see it break through sooner.
Time will tell.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 2:59 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per 
kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need 
more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve the 
cells, of course.

Bill 

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to 
conventional batteries

Does anybody know any more about this research?

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html 

Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.

It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all 
about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how 
much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand charge 
cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is bendable, in 
what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They show the battery 
being drilled into with minimal ill effect.

I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a super-fast 
charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast discharge rate. It 
gives the appearance of being technology within the reach of an hobbyist to 
manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally flexible.

In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself, at 
home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles, then to 
stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.

Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me?

b

Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per 
kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need 
more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve the 
cells, of course.

 

Bill 

 

 

From: Peter Gabrielsson [mailto:peter.gabriels...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 4:03 PM
To: Bill Dennis; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

 

You may be confusing power and energy

On Apr 7, 2015 2:59 PM, Bill Dennis via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per
kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need
more of them to get the same power.  That might get better as they improve
the cells, of course.

Bill

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to
conventional batteries

Does anybody know any more about this research?

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html

Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte.

It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all
about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how
much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand
charge cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is
bendable, in what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They show
the battery being drilled into with minimal ill effect.

I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a
super-fast charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast
discharge rate. It gives the appearance of being technology within the reach
of an hobbyist to manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally
flexible.

In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself,
at home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles,
then to stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array.

Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

I do not have a Nature subscription
but I looked at the abstract again and noticed the pictures underneath.
Click on the first one, it shows the chemical formulas for the operation of the 
cell

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
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-Original Message-
From: Ben Goren [mailto:b...@trumpetpower.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:48 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:44 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 the electrolyte is not specified other than the phrase intercalation of 
 chloroaluminate anions in the graphite

I see that in the abstract...is that what you're referring to, or do you have 
the full article?

I've asked a friend with a subscription to send me a copy of the full article. 
I'm hoping to find enough details in there for at least somebody who's in the 
industry to be able to reverse-engineer it...and, from there, that I'll be able 
to get up to speed on that part of the industry to figure out if _I_ could 
perhaps reverse-engineer it...

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Your needs may differ but, for me, unequivocally the charge time is more 
 important.

I'm not discounting the importance of charge time. It's just my understanding 
that the batteries today aren't the limiting factor in charging. Actually 
getting the current out of the wall without melting the wires and setting the 
house (or the charger or whatever) on fire.

It makes sense, too. Figure a car is going to need at least in the range of 
~50HP / 50 kW to have not absolutely pathetically anemic performance. If you've 
got a 50A circuit, you still need a kilovolt. If you've got a 250V outlet, you 
still need a 200A circuit. Either way, you're looking at something comparable 
to the main feed at the meter from the utility, just to keep up with the car's 
power potential. And, no, you're not typically driving full-throttle...but 
you're still drawing an awful lot of current on the freeway. If you want to 
charge as fast as you draw...you're going to need something that significantly 
outpaces the main line to your house.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Cor wrote:
 Who do you trust...

 
http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/04/flexible-aluminum-battery-charges-fas
t-stable-for-over-7000-cycles/  -- But the fact that aluminum atoms only
transferred a single electron when they transited to the cathode is really
not taking full advantage of the whole reason that people think the material
would be good for batteries. And that leads to the low power density of
these batteries.

http://geniushowto.blogspot.com/2015/04/invented-aluminium-battery-recharges
-in-1-minute.html -- The only disadvantage that these Aluminum ion
batteries haven't been able to cover is voltage and power density here it
lags behind lithium powered batteries average 4 volts with its 2 volts
production and packs a power of 40 watts/kg compared to lithium batteries
humongous 206 Watts/kg power density.

So I read those numbers in three different articles before posting.  But
after your Nature reference, I've also now found some articles quoting 3000
W/kg.   So it's hard to say which is correct at this point.  Note that the
arstechnica article referenced above specifically talks about lower power
density without using numbers.

Is it possible that the cells can be charged much faster than they can be
discharged, and the 3000 W/kg number is referring to charge rate, while the
40 W/kg number is discharge rate?

Bill  


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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:25 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Time will tell if we soon will have a 1-minute rechargeable battery

...and a 1-minute *dischargeable* battery. That's probably an even bigger deal 
than the charge time.

Right now, charging times seem to be limited on all sorts of things other than 
battery chemistry -- at least, in the automotive world. I suppose cell phones 
may well be limited by chemistry.

From what I can tell, typical batteries in today's EVs have discharge rates in 
the single-digit C values, which limits their power output to about the same 
as their ICE equivalents. But this is an order of magnitude more than that, 
and twice what even A123 offers. If these're price-competitive with today's 
batteries -- and, of course, if all these numbers actually hold up -- then 
we're looking at econoboxes with batteries that would make Weyland and Garlits 
and the rest drool.

Of course, the econoboxes wouldn't get the motors and controllers that could 
keep up with the batteries...but...well, for example, a battery like this might 
well be able to replace mechanical brakes by actually being able to absorb all 
the energy from an hard stop with regen. That would eliminate yet another 
component and its weight and complexity. I'm sure all sorts of other 
possibilities present themselves if these power numbers are real.

Like...mechanical recharging. Pull into the gas station with the wheels on a 
dyno. (Or, more realistically, something that coupled to the wheels / 
drivetrain without relying on the friction of rubber.) Line current (or battery 
banks or whatever) power the dyno; the car turns on full regen. If the car 
*did* have a dragster-capable motor / controller / whatever, you could thereby 
pump that megawatt into the batteries and, in three minutes, put 50 kWh into 
them. Yes, there'd be efficiency losses...but electricity is dirt cheap 
compared with gasoline, so people likely wouldn't care.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

BTW,
Are you capable of making three-dimensional graphitic-foam?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:53 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

I do not have a Nature subscription
but I looked at the abstract again and noticed the pictures underneath.
Click on the first one, it shows the chemical formulas for the operation of the 
cell

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: Ben Goren [mailto:b...@trumpetpower.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:48 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:44 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 the electrolyte is not specified other than the phrase intercalation of 
 chloroaluminate anions in the graphite

I see that in the abstract...is that what you're referring to, or do you have 
the full article?

I've asked a friend with a subscription to send me a copy of the full article. 
I'm hoping to find enough details in there for at least somebody who's in the 
industry to be able to reverse-engineer it...and, from there, that I'll be able 
to get up to speed on that part of the industry to figure out if _I_ could 
perhaps reverse-engineer it...

b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

I've no clue. I'm assuming they're making it using some sort of chemical 
reaction, presumably one not entirely unlike those ones chemistry teachers love 
to demonstrate with the carbon snakes boiling out of the beakers when they mix 
two colorless liquids.

...I think I'm going to see if the researchers answer their emails

b

On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:54 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 BTW,
 Are you capable of making three-dimensional graphitic-foam?
 
 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless
 
 office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
 XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
 www.proxim.com
 
 
 This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
 proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
 message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
 use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
 prohibited.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via 
 EV
 Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:53 PM
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
 
 I do not have a Nature subscription
 but I looked at the abstract again and noticed the pictures underneath.
 Click on the first one, it shows the chemical formulas for the operation of 
 the cell
 
 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless
 
 office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
 XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
 www.proxim.com
 
 
 This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
 proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
 message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
 use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
 prohibited.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Ben Goren [mailto:b...@trumpetpower.com] 
 Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:48 PM
 To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
 
 On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:44 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 the electrolyte is not specified other than the phrase intercalation of 
 chloroaluminate anions in the graphite
 
 I see that in the abstract...is that what you're referring to, or do you have 
 the full article?
 
 I've asked a friend with a subscription to send me a copy of the full 
 article. I'm hoping to find enough details in there for at least somebody 
 who's in the industry to be able to reverse-engineer it...and, from there, 
 that I'll be able to get up to speed on that part of the industry to figure 
 out if _I_ could perhaps reverse-engineer it...
 
 b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Hi Bill,
Thanks for the references!
It makes no sense to expect batteries to charge fast and discharge slowly.
Typically the charging is not faster than the discharge.
More likely, they are talking about Alu cells available *now* that are 40W per 
kg
versus the newer technology described in the Stanford article that suggests that
they can do 4000A per kg, which is presumably 8kW per kg of power density.
That factor 200 difference is significant enough that it requires a 
breakthrough,
so apparently it is this breakthrough that Stanford is reporting, compared with
earlier Alu technology that has many other drawbacks as well.
Time will tell if we soon will have a 1-minute rechargeable battery

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 4:10 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

Cor wrote:
 Who do you trust...

 
http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/04/flexible-aluminum-battery-charges-fas
t-stable-for-over-7000-cycles/  -- But the fact that aluminum atoms only 
transferred a single electron when they transited to the cathode is really not 
taking full advantage of the whole reason that people think the material would 
be good for batteries. And that leads to the low power density of these 
batteries.

http://geniushowto.blogspot.com/2015/04/invented-aluminium-battery-recharges
-in-1-minute.html -- The only disadvantage that these Aluminum ion batteries 
haven't been able to cover is voltage and power density here it lags behind 
lithium powered batteries average 4 volts with its 2 volts production and packs 
a power of 40 watts/kg compared to lithium batteries humongous 206 Watts/kg 
power density.

So I read those numbers in three different articles before posting.  But after 
your Nature reference, I've also now found some articles quoting 3000
W/kg.   So it's hard to say which is correct at this point.  Note that the
arstechnica article referenced above specifically talks about lower power 
density without using numbers.

Is it possible that the cells can be charged much faster than they can be 
discharged, and the 3000 W/kg number is referring to charge rate, while the
40 W/kg number is discharge rate?

Bill  


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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

2015-04-07 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Your needs may differ but, for me, unequivocally the charge time is more 
important.   Consider at least 10:1 for charge:discharge and perhaps 
even 100:1 as long as the battery can handle one or two minute bursts at 
high current.


I want to pull into a charge station, get a full charge in 5 minutes and 
drive for a a few hours.  At 30:1 I could get 2.5 hours of driving for 5 
minutes of charging.  This kind of charge time would truly make a cross 
country trip practical.


Of course, if you're on the drag strip, you won't be interested in 30:1 
;)


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Cor van de Water cwa...@proxim.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List ev@lists.evdl.org

Sent: 07-Apr-15 4:50:26 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:25 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:


 Time will tell if we soon will have a 1-minute rechargeable 
battery


...and a 1-minute *dischargeable* battery. That's probably an even 
bigger deal than the charge time.


Right now, charging times seem to be limited on all sorts of things 
other than battery chemistry -- at least, in the automotive world. I 
suppose cell phones may well be limited by chemistry.


From what I can tell, typical batteries in today's EVs have discharge 
rates in the single-digit C values, which limits their power output to 
about the same as their ICE equivalents. But this is an order of 
magnitude more than that, and twice what even A123 offers. If these're 
price-competitive with today's batteries -- and, of course, if all 
these numbers actually hold up -- then we're looking at econoboxes with 
batteries that would make Weyland and Garlits and the rest drool.


Of course, the econoboxes wouldn't get the motors and controllers that 
could keep up with the batteries...but...well, for example, a battery 
like this might well be able to replace mechanical brakes by actually 
being able to absorb all the energy from an hard stop with regen. That 
would eliminate yet another component and its weight and complexity. 
I'm sure all sorts of other possibilities present themselves if these 
power numbers are real.


Like...mechanical recharging. Pull into the gas station with the 
wheels on a dyno. (Or, more realistically, something that coupled to 
the wheels / drivetrain without relying on the friction of rubber.) 
Line current (or battery banks or whatever) power the dyno; the car 
turns on full regen. If the car *did* have a dragster-capable motor / 
controller / whatever, you could thereby pump that megawatt into the 
batteries and, in three minutes, put 50 kWh into them. Yes, there'd be 
efficiency losses...but electricity is dirt cheap compared with 
gasoline, so people likely wouldn't care.


b
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

David wrote:  
...though perhaps you might have been more skeptical. ;-) 

David,
  Typical aluminum-air cells have a power density of around 60-70 W/kg, so
40 W/kg didn't seem out of line.  To the contrary, it's the 3000 W/kg number
that seems awfully high.

Bill

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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford

On 7 Apr 2015 at 16:50, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

 and a 1-minute *dischargeable* battery. That's probably an even bigger deal
 than the charge time.

The only person I can imagine who might think that a one-minute discharge is 
a big deal is a drag racer.  The rest of us generally want to drive our EVs 
for more than a minute between charges.  

However, a minute to charge an EV - IF it were possible to field the roughly 
1.5 megawatts of power required to do it - now that WOULD be a big deal. 
(For reference, 1.5MW is the MAXIMUM power available to 30 modern homes with 
200 amp, 240v service.)

Maybe there are small rechargeable portable devices for which 1 minute of 
operation between charges would be useful, but I can't think of any.  
Certainly not mobile computers or phones.

  electricity is dirt cheap compared with gasoline, so people likely
 wouldn't care. 

This is exactly the attitude that got us where we are with fossil fuels and 
ICEVs.  We reallly need to start thinking about the future more.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] Bosch uses UX approach to spark enthusiasm for electric driving - Putting people first