Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Collin Kidder via EV]

Any logs anyone could send me from a Leaf would be great. But, I might
be on to something. Byte 4 (the fifth byte if you start counting at 0)
is always a constant value for a given car. It stays the same across
all 0x5C0 frames, it stays the same whether driving or charging. Every
vehicle I've got a capture from has a unique byte here that never
changes with any captures from that car no matter what else the car is
doing. Pretty much all of the rest of the bytes change as you charge
or discharge. I think what might be happening is that this byte is a
sort of identifier that the rest of the system uses to see whether the
pack is the same one it last knew. 256 unique values might not seem
like a lot but that means that your odds of getting a pack with the
same byte as your old pack is 1/256 or less than 0.5% - not so likely.
One way to test this would be to set up a man in the middle
configuration and then change that byte and see if it makes the car
puke. Or, take a car with a replaced pack and try to change the
reported byte from the new LBC to the reported byte from the old LBC
and see if the car then wants to work better.

It seems a little bit cheap that they'd use a single byte for
validation but it's possible. So far as most anyone would be concerned
a 1 in 256 chance of a new pack working might as well be one in a
billion. If you needed to replace the pack in your car would you take
a 1/256 chance that the pack you bought would work? And, assuming
people did find out about the scheme for most people that'd mean
having to stock hundreds of salvage packs in order for your customers
to get a pack that works for their car.

But, without further testing this is all just a guess.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 7:03 PM, Chris Meier via EV  wrote:
> I was told by the dealer that the shorting of the 12v leads is one of the 
> approved steps/workarounds in the TCU update.
>
> Afterwards the gauges were off until one drive/charge cycle.
> --
> -Chris
>
> On January 26, 2017 12:29:37 PM CST, Cor van de Water via EV 
>  wrote:
>>The Supercaps that you mentioned are present in every car with
>>electrically operated brakes. I know of the supercap bank in the trunk
>>of every Prius since pretty early on (I think the "Classic" 2001-2003
>>does not have it, but I am certain that since 2004 it is wht allows you
>>to apply brakes a few times when suddenly the aux battery goes out
>>while
>>driving).
>>I checked the wiring diagram and indeed there is a "Brake Power Supply
>>Backup Unit (B15)" on the diagram. Typically those will *not* feed
>>power
>>back to 12V aux battery, so this should not be the reason a car behaves
>>differently with a short or long disconnect of the aux battery.
>>What might be the case is a capacitor on the memory of a computer that
>>is designed to withstand a short disconnect, to allow you to change
>>your
>>battery without losing all your settings.
>>Typically such a capacitor is not feeding back to the aux battery
>>either, so in any case clicking the loose battery wires together should
>>make very little difference in how long it takes for the car to behave
>>differently.
>>
>>Also, the LBC validation happens without disconnecting the aux battery.
>>I know for sure as I never disconnect the 12V battery and when I
>>swapped
>>my pack for a complete replacement pack from Washington State, the
>>yellow light on the dash came on and my Leaf was in Limp mode while I
>>only disconnected the (non-energized, due to the contactors in the
>>pack)
>>HV lines and the control bus.
>>Just wheeling the original pack back under my Leaf and swapping the
>>connectors removed the Limp mode, so I know for a fact that the Leaf
>>validates the battery upon pressing the power button while the aux
>>battery is connected continuously, so it seems that you were looking at
>>the wrong thing.
>>Probably a trace of the EV bus as soon as the power button is depressed
>>(when a *lot* of communication is happening) will tell the story.
>>You may start the trace as soon as the brake is pressed.
>>Good luck!
>>
>>Cor van de Water
>>Chief Scientist
>>Proxim Wireless
>>
>>office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
>>XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>>
>>http://www.proxim.com
>>
>>This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>>and
>>proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>>received
>>this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>>unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>>this message is prohibited.
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Collin Kidder
>>via EV
>>Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 8:02 AM
>>To: Tom Parker; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or
>>interior/exterior/suspension parts?
>>
>>10 minutes should have 

Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Chris Meier via EV]

I was told by the dealer that the shorting of the 12v leads is one of the 
approved steps/workarounds in the TCU update.

Afterwards the gauges were off until one drive/charge cycle.
-- 
-Chris

On January 26, 2017 12:29:37 PM CST, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:
>The Supercaps that you mentioned are present in every car with
>electrically operated brakes. I know of the supercap bank in the trunk
>of every Prius since pretty early on (I think the "Classic" 2001-2003
>does not have it, but I am certain that since 2004 it is wht allows you
>to apply brakes a few times when suddenly the aux battery goes out
>while
>driving).
>I checked the wiring diagram and indeed there is a "Brake Power Supply
>Backup Unit (B15)" on the diagram. Typically those will *not* feed
>power
>back to 12V aux battery, so this should not be the reason a car behaves
>differently with a short or long disconnect of the aux battery.
>What might be the case is a capacitor on the memory of a computer that
>is designed to withstand a short disconnect, to allow you to change
>your
>battery without losing all your settings.
>Typically such a capacitor is not feeding back to the aux battery
>either, so in any case clicking the loose battery wires together should
>make very little difference in how long it takes for the car to behave
>differently.
>
>Also, the LBC validation happens without disconnecting the aux battery.
>I know for sure as I never disconnect the 12V battery and when I
>swapped
>my pack for a complete replacement pack from Washington State, the
>yellow light on the dash came on and my Leaf was in Limp mode while I
>only disconnected the (non-energized, due to the contactors in the
>pack)
>HV lines and the control bus.
>Just wheeling the original pack back under my Leaf and swapping the
>connectors removed the Limp mode, so I know for a fact that the Leaf
>validates the battery upon pressing the power button while the aux
>battery is connected continuously, so it seems that you were looking at
>the wrong thing.
>Probably a trace of the EV bus as soon as the power button is depressed
>(when a *lot* of communication is happening) will tell the story.
>You may start the trace as soon as the brake is pressed.
>Good luck!
>
>Cor van de Water 
>Chief Scientist 
>Proxim Wireless 
>  
>office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
>XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
>
>http://www.proxim.com
>
>This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>and
>proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>received
>this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>this message is prohibited.
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Collin Kidder
>via EV
>Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 8:02 AM
>To: Tom Parker; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or
>interior/exterior/suspension parts?
>
>10 minutes should have been enough. Chris suggested shorting the
>positive and negative together to drain any capacitance and force the
>ECUs to reset but I cannot imagine an ECU lasting 10 minutes on its
>input capacitors. Though, I think that the leaf actually has a super
>capacitor behind the rear seats so it might take a long time to drain
>that off. It might be worth a try to make sure the 12v wiring is
>really, truly drained. I did some work with adding a secondary battery
>pack and initially made a number of bad mistakes that caused critical
>ECU faults. Disconnecting the battery for a few minutes would not
>allow me to clear the faults but disconnecting all day and trying it
>again the next day would work. I think eventually someone suggested
>shorting the battery terminals and doing that does allow for resets
>more quickly. Though, if I'm right about the super cap being for the
>12V power then you might want to discharge through a power resistor
>and not just click the terminals together. It doesn't hurt to use a
>resistor in either case. It's better for the car anyway.
>
>Otherwise, it does appear we're looking at a message that is more
>continuous. That doesn't mean that it necessarily happens quickly. On
>the Tesla Model S there is a series of messages that transmit the VIN
>number of the vehicle, presumably for authentication with various
>components. These messages are only sent something like every 5
>minutes. So, they'll show up as messages that aren't necessarily one
>time and done but they've got a very long interval between
>transmission. If you have the means to check transmission interval you
>might try that. Actually, I have captures from various Leafs on the
>powertrain bus and I do have the means to check the interval so I'll
>check and see if I can find messages that maybe don't get transmitted
>so often. A validation message might 

Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Another thing we can try is to unplug the round control connector from
the battery pack, see if the car powers up into ACC mode (since the HV
battery is not accessible as the contactor coil wires also go through
that connector) and once the EV bus gets quiet, plug the connector in
again to see if the LBC will report for duty and the car accept it
(extinguish the warning lights)

Or take a capture of a typical good startup, then wire the EV CAN bus to
a different LBC and do the same startup, it is easier to see the
differences that way.

I have the hardware to build two CANary (intended for the dual pack
truck) so once I have that running, I can use one to reprogram and start
capturing CAN bus traffic...

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Collin Kidder
via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 12:38 PM
To: Tom Parker; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or
interior/exterior/suspension parts?

I have a capture from (I think it was the 2013 Leaf but I have a 2012
as well) and the capture is both buses at the same time. The "normal"
can bus is a lot noisier than the EV bus. It also starts up first and
has a lot of traffic before the EV bus even starts. I need to do some
more filtering to see which IDs are really on which buses but it looks
like maybe 0x5C0 could have something to do with it. It seems to be
part of the LBC comm and the message appears on the EV bus and then
immediately seems to be re-broadcast on the other CAN bus. But, I
don't see any form of response to it other than the VCM seems to
forward it immediately. Also, the numbers found within seem to be
different for each car I'm aware of. It also has a cyclic three
messages. The first byte goes 0x40, 0x80, 0xC0 for everyone. But, the
data doesn't seem to change much depending on that first byte.

I get:
0x5C0   Len: 8   Data: 0x40 50 4C 00 BD 00 1E 00
0x5C0   Len: 8   Data: 0x80 4C 4C 00 BD D8 0C 00
0x5C0   Len: 8   Data: 0xC0 4A 4A 00 BD D8 0C 00

There is some minor fluctuation of the numbers but not a lot. Kind of
seems like some form of data that might really not be a serial number
but it is one of the few frames directly forwarded between buses.

So, maybe there's something to it, maybe not. It'd be interesting to
know what your bytes are.


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Tom Parker via EV 
wrote:
> On 27/01/17 07:29, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>
>> Also, the LBC validation happens without disconnecting the aux
battery.
>> I know for sure as I never disconnect the 12V battery and when I
swapped
>> my pack for a complete replacement pack from Washington State, the
>> yellow light on the dash came on and my Leaf was in Limp mode while I
>> only disconnected the (non-energized, due to the contactors in the
pack)
>> HV lines and the control bus.
>> Just wheeling the original pack back under my Leaf and swapping the
>> connectors removed the Limp mode, so I know for a fact that the Leaf
>> validates the battery upon pressing the power button while the aux
>> battery is connected continuously, so it seems that you were looking
at
>> the wrong thing.
>> Probably a trace of the EV bus as soon as the power button is
depressed
>> (when a *lot* of communication is happening) will tell the story.
>> You may start the trace as soon as the brake is pressed.
>
>
> Thank you for this information Cor!
>
> I have many captures of my car's startup on the EV Bus and unless my
> hardware misses the important frames, I don't see anything special at
> startup. 0x603 is sent once, is the first frame sent and always with
payload
> 00. A number of frames are sent with lots of bits set which later
contain
> valid data - for example the first couple of frames from the LBC:
>
> 1 2017-01-26 21:47:24.907267CAN16
STD:
> 0x0603   00
> 8 2017-01-26 21:47:24.993307VCM Info   16
STD:
> 0x01f2   08 64 00 00 00 01 01 06
> 652017-01-26 21:47:25.139218LBC Battery V/A16
STD:
> 0x01db   7f e0 ff c6 00 00 00 de
> 662017-01-26 21:47:25.140191LBC 0x1dc  16
STD:
> 0x01dc   ff ff ff ff 1f ff fc 6b
>
> And I can see the VCM go through it's startup sequence (in 0x1f2 byte
5).
> However all the frames other than 0x603 are sent more than once per
second.
>
> I'll capture startup from some more cars, identify which bytes are

Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Collin Kidder via EV]

I have a capture from (I think it was the 2013 Leaf but I have a 2012
as well) and the capture is both buses at the same time. The "normal"
can bus is a lot noisier than the EV bus. It also starts up first and
has a lot of traffic before the EV bus even starts. I need to do some
more filtering to see which IDs are really on which buses but it looks
like maybe 0x5C0 could have something to do with it. It seems to be
part of the LBC comm and the message appears on the EV bus and then
immediately seems to be re-broadcast on the other CAN bus. But, I
don't see any form of response to it other than the VCM seems to
forward it immediately. Also, the numbers found within seem to be
different for each car I'm aware of. It also has a cyclic three
messages. The first byte goes 0x40, 0x80, 0xC0 for everyone. But, the
data doesn't seem to change much depending on that first byte.

I get:
0x5C0   Len: 8   Data: 0x40 50 4C 00 BD 00 1E 00
0x5C0   Len: 8   Data: 0x80 4C 4C 00 BD D8 0C 00
0x5C0   Len: 8   Data: 0xC0 4A 4A 00 BD D8 0C 00

There is some minor fluctuation of the numbers but not a lot. Kind of
seems like some form of data that might really not be a serial number
but it is one of the few frames directly forwarded between buses.

So, maybe there's something to it, maybe not. It'd be interesting to
know what your bytes are.


On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Tom Parker via EV  wrote:
> On 27/01/17 07:29, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>
>> Also, the LBC validation happens without disconnecting the aux battery.
>> I know for sure as I never disconnect the 12V battery and when I swapped
>> my pack for a complete replacement pack from Washington State, the
>> yellow light on the dash came on and my Leaf was in Limp mode while I
>> only disconnected the (non-energized, due to the contactors in the pack)
>> HV lines and the control bus.
>> Just wheeling the original pack back under my Leaf and swapping the
>> connectors removed the Limp mode, so I know for a fact that the Leaf
>> validates the battery upon pressing the power button while the aux
>> battery is connected continuously, so it seems that you were looking at
>> the wrong thing.
>> Probably a trace of the EV bus as soon as the power button is depressed
>> (when a *lot* of communication is happening) will tell the story.
>> You may start the trace as soon as the brake is pressed.
>
>
> Thank you for this information Cor!
>
> I have many captures of my car's startup on the EV Bus and unless my
> hardware misses the important frames, I don't see anything special at
> startup. 0x603 is sent once, is the first frame sent and always with payload
> 00. A number of frames are sent with lots of bits set which later contain
> valid data - for example the first couple of frames from the LBC:
>
> 1 2017-01-26 21:47:24.907267CAN16STD:
> 0x0603   00
> 8 2017-01-26 21:47:24.993307VCM Info   16STD:
> 0x01f2   08 64 00 00 00 01 01 06
> 652017-01-26 21:47:25.139218LBC Battery V/A16STD:
> 0x01db   7f e0 ff c6 00 00 00 de
> 662017-01-26 21:47:25.140191LBC 0x1dc  16STD:
> 0x01dc   ff ff ff ff 1f ff fc 6b
>
> And I can see the VCM go through it's startup sequence (in 0x1f2 byte 5).
> However all the frames other than 0x603 are sent more than once per second.
>
> I'll capture startup from some more cars, identify which bytes are different
> and use a man in the middle to selectively tamper with those bytes and see
> what causes the car to reject the battery. Hopefully there aren't too many
> differences! Carl at https://bluecars.nz/ has a leaf system on the bench, so
> establishing the man in the middle won't be too hard.
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I have a Leaf (fully assembled and my daily driver)
and I have two LBC's in my truck, each managing one Leaf pack
and I have wired the two CAN buses to the dash, so it would be feasible
to disconnect only the CAN bus of a Leaf parked next to the truck, bring
the CAN bus to one of the LBCs (both at 2011 as is my Leaf) and see what
the incorrect response tells us.
BTW, there should be a trigger coming from the VCM just before the
answer from the LBC, since the LBC does not know when to report its
status, unless it is triggered by the power up of the IGN line to the
LBC but that seems unlikely, it makes more sense that the VCM
interrogates the LBC with an identity and the LBC confirms. The original
trigger may come from the Combination Meter, as I was told that removing
the Combination Meter will remove the Limp mode on a Leaf with the wrong
battery.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Tom Parker via
EV
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 10:54 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or
interior/exterior/suspension parts?

On 27/01/17 07:29, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> Also, the LBC validation happens without disconnecting the aux
battery.
> I know for sure as I never disconnect the 12V battery and when I
swapped
> my pack for a complete replacement pack from Washington State, the
> yellow light on the dash came on and my Leaf was in Limp mode while I
> only disconnected the (non-energized, due to the contactors in the
pack)
> HV lines and the control bus.
> Just wheeling the original pack back under my Leaf and swapping the
> connectors removed the Limp mode, so I know for a fact that the Leaf
> validates the battery upon pressing the power button while the aux
> battery is connected continuously, so it seems that you were looking
at
> the wrong thing.
> Probably a trace of the EV bus as soon as the power button is
depressed
> (when a *lot* of communication is happening) will tell the story.
> You may start the trace as soon as the brake is pressed.

Thank you for this information Cor!

I have many captures of my car's startup on the EV Bus and unless my 
hardware misses the important frames, I don't see anything special at 
startup. 0x603 is sent once, is the first frame sent and always with 
payload 00. A number of frames are sent with lots of bits set which 
later contain valid data - for example the first couple of frames from 
the LBC:

1 2017-01-26 21:47:24.907267CAN16
STD: 0x0603   00
8 2017-01-26 21:47:24.993307VCM Info   16
STD: 0x01f2   08 64 00 00 00 01 01 06
652017-01-26 21:47:25.139218LBC Battery V/A16
STD: 0x01db   7f e0 ff c6 00 00 00 de
662017-01-26 21:47:25.140191LBC 0x1dc  16
STD: 0x01dc   ff ff ff ff 1f ff fc 6b

And I can see the VCM go through it's startup sequence (in 0x1f2 byte 
5). However all the frames other than 0x603 are sent more than once per 
second.

I'll capture startup from some more cars, identify which bytes are 
different and use a man in the middle to selectively tamper with those 
bytes and see what causes the car to reject the battery. Hopefully there

aren't too many differences! Carl at https://bluecars.nz/ has a leaf 
system on the bench, so establishing the man in the middle won't be too 
hard.
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Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Tom Parker via EV]

On 27/01/17 07:29, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Also, the LBC validation happens without disconnecting the aux battery.
I know for sure as I never disconnect the 12V battery and when I swapped
my pack for a complete replacement pack from Washington State, the
yellow light on the dash came on and my Leaf was in Limp mode while I
only disconnected the (non-energized, due to the contactors in the pack)
HV lines and the control bus.
Just wheeling the original pack back under my Leaf and swapping the
connectors removed the Limp mode, so I know for a fact that the Leaf
validates the battery upon pressing the power button while the aux
battery is connected continuously, so it seems that you were looking at
the wrong thing.
Probably a trace of the EV bus as soon as the power button is depressed
(when a *lot* of communication is happening) will tell the story.
You may start the trace as soon as the brake is pressed.


Thank you for this information Cor!

I have many captures of my car's startup on the EV Bus and unless my 
hardware misses the important frames, I don't see anything special at 
startup. 0x603 is sent once, is the first frame sent and always with 
payload 00. A number of frames are sent with lots of bits set which 
later contain valid data - for example the first couple of frames from 
the LBC:


1 2017-01-26 21:47:24.907267CAN16STD: 
0x0603   00
8 2017-01-26 21:47:24.993307VCM Info   16STD: 
0x01f2   08 64 00 00 00 01 01 06
652017-01-26 21:47:25.139218LBC Battery V/A16STD: 
0x01db   7f e0 ff c6 00 00 00 de
662017-01-26 21:47:25.140191LBC 0x1dc  16STD: 
0x01dc   ff ff ff ff 1f ff fc 6b

And I can see the VCM go through it's startup sequence (in 0x1f2 byte 
5). However all the frames other than 0x603 are sent more than once per 
second.


I'll capture startup from some more cars, identify which bytes are 
different and use a man in the middle to selectively tamper with those 
bytes and see what causes the car to reject the battery. Hopefully there 
aren't too many differences! Carl at https://bluecars.nz/ has a leaf 
system on the bench, so establishing the man in the middle won't be too 
hard.

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

As you could see on my list, the LBC (BMS computer) is only connected to
the EV CAN bus so capturing everything on that bus should show you
everything that the battery computer tells to the VCM (or to other
computers *via* the VCM).
Concentrate on the point where the car starts up, that is when I expect
that the battery gets validated as I explained in my last post.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Tom Parker via
EV
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 10:32 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or
interior/exterior/suspension parts?

On 27/01/17 07:06, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> Did you grab communication from *both* CAN buses?
> The Leaf's Battery Controller (LBC) communicates via the VCM which is
> connected to both the EV CAN bus and the normal CAN bus, to the
> Combination Meter, which is supposed to hold the key that is paired to
> the LBC. So some communication spills over from one CAN bus to the
> other. Both are available on the OBD (Data Link) connector. Without a
> dump from both, it is hard to tell what would disable/enable the Leaf
> since only half the communication can be seen.
I'm only capturing the EV CAN bus -- I'm interested in how the BMS is 
authenticated by the rest of the car, so that transaction must pass 
through the EV bus to get to the BMS. Unless it isn't done on the CAN 
bus at all, but that seems unlikely?
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Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Tom Parker via EV]

On 27/01/17 07:06, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Did you grab communication from *both* CAN buses?
The Leaf's Battery Controller (LBC) communicates via the VCM which is
connected to both the EV CAN bus and the normal CAN bus, to the
Combination Meter, which is supposed to hold the key that is paired to
the LBC. So some communication spills over from one CAN bus to the
other. Both are available on the OBD (Data Link) connector. Without a
dump from both, it is hard to tell what would disable/enable the Leaf
since only half the communication can be seen.
I'm only capturing the EV CAN bus -- I'm interested in how the BMS is 
authenticated by the rest of the car, so that transaction must pass 
through the EV bus to get to the BMS. Unless it isn't done on the CAN 
bus at all, but that seems unlikely?

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Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

The Supercaps that you mentioned are present in every car with
electrically operated brakes. I know of the supercap bank in the trunk
of every Prius since pretty early on (I think the "Classic" 2001-2003
does not have it, but I am certain that since 2004 it is wht allows you
to apply brakes a few times when suddenly the aux battery goes out while
driving).
I checked the wiring diagram and indeed there is a "Brake Power Supply
Backup Unit (B15)" on the diagram. Typically those will *not* feed power
back to 12V aux battery, so this should not be the reason a car behaves
differently with a short or long disconnect of the aux battery.
What might be the case is a capacitor on the memory of a computer that
is designed to withstand a short disconnect, to allow you to change your
battery without losing all your settings.
Typically such a capacitor is not feeding back to the aux battery
either, so in any case clicking the loose battery wires together should
make very little difference in how long it takes for the car to behave
differently.

Also, the LBC validation happens without disconnecting the aux battery.
I know for sure as I never disconnect the 12V battery and when I swapped
my pack for a complete replacement pack from Washington State, the
yellow light on the dash came on and my Leaf was in Limp mode while I
only disconnected the (non-energized, due to the contactors in the pack)
HV lines and the control bus.
Just wheeling the original pack back under my Leaf and swapping the
connectors removed the Limp mode, so I know for a fact that the Leaf
validates the battery upon pressing the power button while the aux
battery is connected continuously, so it seems that you were looking at
the wrong thing.
Probably a trace of the EV bus as soon as the power button is depressed
(when a *lot* of communication is happening) will tell the story.
You may start the trace as soon as the brake is pressed.
Good luck!

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Collin Kidder
via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 8:02 AM
To: Tom Parker; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or
interior/exterior/suspension parts?

10 minutes should have been enough. Chris suggested shorting the
positive and negative together to drain any capacitance and force the
ECUs to reset but I cannot imagine an ECU lasting 10 minutes on its
input capacitors. Though, I think that the leaf actually has a super
capacitor behind the rear seats so it might take a long time to drain
that off. It might be worth a try to make sure the 12v wiring is
really, truly drained. I did some work with adding a secondary battery
pack and initially made a number of bad mistakes that caused critical
ECU faults. Disconnecting the battery for a few minutes would not
allow me to clear the faults but disconnecting all day and trying it
again the next day would work. I think eventually someone suggested
shorting the battery terminals and doing that does allow for resets
more quickly. Though, if I'm right about the super cap being for the
12V power then you might want to discharge through a power resistor
and not just click the terminals together. It doesn't hurt to use a
resistor in either case. It's better for the car anyway.

Otherwise, it does appear we're looking at a message that is more
continuous. That doesn't mean that it necessarily happens quickly. On
the Tesla Model S there is a series of messages that transmit the VIN
number of the vehicle, presumably for authentication with various
components. These messages are only sent something like every 5
minutes. So, they'll show up as messages that aren't necessarily one
time and done but they've got a very long interval between
transmission. If you have the means to check transmission interval you
might try that. Actually, I have captures from various Leafs on the
powertrain bus and I do have the means to check the interval so I'll
check and see if I can find messages that maybe don't get transmitted
so often. A validation message might only be every second or couple of
seconds. There's no need to spam the bus with serial number validation
every 10ms. Really, I didn't think there was any need to do it more
than once but maybe it really does. This whole business of component
validation is just plain annoying. Are chop shops really that big of a
thing or are the automakers just that DIY hostile?

On Thu, Jan 

Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Did you grab communication from *both* CAN buses?
The Leaf's Battery Controller (LBC) communicates via the VCM which is
connected to both the EV CAN bus and the normal CAN bus, to the
Combination Meter, which is supposed to hold the key that is paired to
the LBC. So some communication spills over from one CAN bus to the
other. Both are available on the OBD (Data Link) connector. Without a
dump from both, it is hard to tell what would disable/enable the Leaf
since only half the communication can be seen.
Here is a full list of everything connected to the two CAN buses on a
2011 Leaf, you see that the VCM is the spider in the web of the two
buses:

EV CAN bus:
Data Link Connector (13,12)
LBC (BMS 1,2)
VCM (9,13)
traction motor inverter (12,19)
Electric Shift Control (31,32)
A/C Amp (28,29)
TCU (9,10)
Charger (19,20)

"normal" CAN bus:
Data Link COnnector (6,14)
IPDM (27,26)
Combination Meter (19,18)
VCM (25,29)
BCM (39,40)
ABS actuator and control (22,9)
Intelligent Brake Unit (43,42 41,40) (double wired to bus)
Parking Brake (16,8)
Airbag Controller (59,60)
AV control unit (26,25)
EPS (2,1)
Steering Angle Sensor (5,2)

The numbers at the end in braces are pin numbers on the unit, the first
number is the wire going to CAN-High, the second number to CAN-Low.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Collin Kidder
via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 8:02 AM
To: Tom Parker; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or
interior/exterior/suspension parts?

10 minutes should have been enough. Chris suggested shorting the
positive and negative together to drain any capacitance and force the
ECUs to reset but I cannot imagine an ECU lasting 10 minutes on its
input capacitors. Though, I think that the leaf actually has a super
capacitor behind the rear seats so it might take a long time to drain
that off. It might be worth a try to make sure the 12v wiring is
really, truly drained. I did some work with adding a secondary battery
pack and initially made a number of bad mistakes that caused critical
ECU faults. Disconnecting the battery for a few minutes would not
allow me to clear the faults but disconnecting all day and trying it
again the next day would work. I think eventually someone suggested
shorting the battery terminals and doing that does allow for resets
more quickly. Though, if I'm right about the super cap being for the
12V power then you might want to discharge through a power resistor
and not just click the terminals together. It doesn't hurt to use a
resistor in either case. It's better for the car anyway.

Otherwise, it does appear we're looking at a message that is more
continuous. That doesn't mean that it necessarily happens quickly. On
the Tesla Model S there is a series of messages that transmit the VIN
number of the vehicle, presumably for authentication with various
components. These messages are only sent something like every 5
minutes. So, they'll show up as messages that aren't necessarily one
time and done but they've got a very long interval between
transmission. If you have the means to check transmission interval you
might try that. Actually, I have captures from various Leafs on the
powertrain bus and I do have the means to check the interval so I'll
check and see if I can find messages that maybe don't get transmitted
so often. A validation message might only be every second or couple of
seconds. There's no need to spam the bus with serial number validation
every 10ms. Really, I didn't think there was any need to do it more
than once but maybe it really does. This whole business of component
validation is just plain annoying. Are chop shops really that big of a
thing or are the automakers just that DIY hostile?

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 4:33 AM, Tom Parker via EV 
wrote:
> On 24/01/17 23:25, Tom Parker via EV wrote:
>
>> On my car, there is only one frame that isn't repeated continuously
after
>> startup (0x603 is sent once, with a single byte payload which is 00
in my
>> captures).
>>
>> I'll try disconnecting the 12v battery tomorrow and see if anything
>> different happens at when it's connected, or during the first
startup.
>
>
> I removed the 12V battery and there was no activity on the EV CAN bus
when
> it was reconnected. There were also no new messages when I turned the
car
> on, and other than 0x603, they all streamed continuously. I waited

Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Collin Kidder via EV]

10 minutes should have been enough. Chris suggested shorting the
positive and negative together to drain any capacitance and force the
ECUs to reset but I cannot imagine an ECU lasting 10 minutes on its
input capacitors. Though, I think that the leaf actually has a super
capacitor behind the rear seats so it might take a long time to drain
that off. It might be worth a try to make sure the 12v wiring is
really, truly drained. I did some work with adding a secondary battery
pack and initially made a number of bad mistakes that caused critical
ECU faults. Disconnecting the battery for a few minutes would not
allow me to clear the faults but disconnecting all day and trying it
again the next day would work. I think eventually someone suggested
shorting the battery terminals and doing that does allow for resets
more quickly. Though, if I'm right about the super cap being for the
12V power then you might want to discharge through a power resistor
and not just click the terminals together. It doesn't hurt to use a
resistor in either case. It's better for the car anyway.

Otherwise, it does appear we're looking at a message that is more
continuous. That doesn't mean that it necessarily happens quickly. On
the Tesla Model S there is a series of messages that transmit the VIN
number of the vehicle, presumably for authentication with various
components. These messages are only sent something like every 5
minutes. So, they'll show up as messages that aren't necessarily one
time and done but they've got a very long interval between
transmission. If you have the means to check transmission interval you
might try that. Actually, I have captures from various Leafs on the
powertrain bus and I do have the means to check the interval so I'll
check and see if I can find messages that maybe don't get transmitted
so often. A validation message might only be every second or couple of
seconds. There's no need to spam the bus with serial number validation
every 10ms. Really, I didn't think there was any need to do it more
than once but maybe it really does. This whole business of component
validation is just plain annoying. Are chop shops really that big of a
thing or are the automakers just that DIY hostile?

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 4:33 AM, Tom Parker via EV  wrote:
> On 24/01/17 23:25, Tom Parker via EV wrote:
>
>> On my car, there is only one frame that isn't repeated continuously after
>> startup (0x603 is sent once, with a single byte payload which is 00 in my
>> captures).
>>
>> I'll try disconnecting the 12v battery tomorrow and see if anything
>> different happens at when it's connected, or during the first startup.
>
>
> I removed the 12V battery and there was no activity on the EV CAN bus when
> it was reconnected. There were also no new messages when I turned the car
> on, and other than 0x603, they all streamed continuously. I waited quite a
> long time (10 minutes maybe) before reconnecting the battery.
>
> I guess this means the BMS authentication is in the repeating messages, or
> it is triggered by some other event than disconnecting the 12V battery, or
> you can have the 12V battery disconnected for a very long time without
> breaking the BMS authentication.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Battery recycling (was Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain...)

[nicklogan via EV]

Bill,
   Thanks to you (and others) for the tips on getting rid of these
batteries. The local scrap dealer will give $0.21/lb so this pack will get
me over $300 just in scrap value. I don't want to deal with Craig's list
buyers for the small extra amount I might get.

Regards,
John

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Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Chris Meier via EV]

Have you tried assuring the processors all reset by shorting the disconnected 
12v leads?
-- 
-Chris

On January 26, 2017 3:33:24 AM CST, Tom Parker via EV  wrote:
>On 24/01/17 23:25, Tom Parker via EV wrote:
>
>> On my car, there is only one frame that isn't repeated continuously 
>> after startup (0x603 is sent once, with a single byte payload which
>is 
>> 00 in my captures).
>>
>> I'll try disconnecting the 12v battery tomorrow and see if anything 
>> different happens at when it's connected, or during the first
>startup.
>
>I removed the 12V battery and there was no activity on the EV CAN bus 
>when it was reconnected. There were also no new messages when I turned 
>the car on, and other than 0x603, they all streamed continuously. I 
>waited quite a long time (10 minutes maybe) before reconnecting the
>battery.
>
>I guess this means the BMS authentication is in the repeating messages,
>
>or it is triggered by some other event than disconnecting the 12V 
>battery, or you can have the 12V battery disconnected for a very long 
>time without breaking the BMS authentication.
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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170126

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-74-1k-Azkarra-2seat-3Whl-EV-r-124mi-ts-149mph-240kph-0-62mph-2-5s-td4685598.html
EVLN: $74.1k Azkarra 2seat 3Whl EV r:124mi ts:149mph(240kph) 0-62mph:2.5s
Canadian electric vehicle startup Girfalco revealed two models of its
Azkarra three-wheel electric car, one a high-performance version that whisks
from 0 to 62 ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Yes-but-are-you-Tesla-happy-gt-Once-you-go-Tesla-you-never-go-back-td4685597.html
EVLN: Yes, but are you Tesla happy?> (Once you go Tesla, you never go back)
It isn't hard to understand why Tesla owners love their cars so much
900 ... Tesla owners are impossible to woo away … The best brands are built
with love in mind. And obviously, Tesla is feeling plenty of love ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-EV-Battery-prices-to-DROP-40-more-in-2017-td4685596.html
EVLN: EV Battery prices to DROP 40% more in 2017
When electric cars first started to reappear in car showrooms, with the
Nissan LEAF leading the charge, the huge cost of the batteries to power the
EVs meant ...

+
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Auckland-nz-Transport-to-trial-Electric-buses-gt-install-60-more-public-EVSE-td4685595.html
Auckland.nz Transport to trial Electric buses> install 60 more public EVSE
Funding has also been provided for installing 60 EV charging stations at AT
parking facilities around Auckland ...




http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] testedcom : youtube Bolt video

[brucedp5 via EV]

ref
https://www.mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/msg19410.html
]

 The Bolt EV tested.com youtube link Rush provided:
[video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ir4y2JwbEw
Tested: Driving the Chevy Bolt Electric Vehicle!
Tested  Jan 19, 2017
We ditch the gas station and go full electric with the Chevy Bolt, the new
electric vehicle that just hit the roads. Our own Jeremy Williams picked up
the Bolt as his first EV, and we go for a ride and test drive to learn about
his experience driving it for a few weeks. 
Shot and edited by Norman Chan
]

 I found worthy of viewing. Interestingly it begins and ends with some
smooth overhead-drone road-views/footage of Twin Peaks (SF-CA)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhoods_in_San_Francisco#Twin_Peaks

 and a few seconds later it shows the GM dealer's license plate holder
stating Colma (a city just south of SF), which means this Bolt EV drive was
going to be in the SF area (vs mine 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Bolt-EV-experience-tp4685003.html
 which was in the South Bay).

 Some points of correction in the video: the Tested rep (Jeremy) mentions
that by default the Bolt coasts, when actually it is in a mild regen mode
(this is what I found when I test drove the Bolt EV). I suppose putting the
Bolt in neutral would let it actually coast (no-regen), but I did not try
that during my short test drive. 

Later, when the Tested rep (Norman) drove it, he showed that default mode
the Bolt begins with does have a mild regen (the same as I found), and it
isn't until you shift the Bolt into 'low' (or push the paddle on the
steering wheel) that the Bolt's regen is much more aggressive, actually able
to bring the EV to a stop without using the brake.

 Jeremy also incorrectly stated the i3 EV he had driven before, could have a
little motorcycle 'battery' in the back for more range ... when actually
what he should have said was a little motorcycle ice genset in the back (a
generator that ran off petrol).

 Jeremy also confessed his range angst with 100mi EVs, and that the Bolt
EV's 200+mi range meant to him that he never had to charge
outside/(away-from) his home. Later, in the video he stated he really likes
that he can recharge at home, and not have to go to a ice-station to refuel
anymore. 

He stated even with a 200+mi EV that has all the options (including a L3 DC
50kW charging ability) he was not ready to do a road trip in his Bolt.
Later, he said he should begin thinking of doing a road trip for the
experience. 

IMO, this sounds like that ice-head that has a long way to go to knowing
what his real EV driving needs are, and what a 200+mi range EV that has L3
50kW and L3 6kW charging abilty can do for him, way out there in the wilds
of public EVSE land (not mentioned, was maybe he does not want to
bother/have-to deal with the hassle and co$t of all the different rfid cards
each brand of EVSE require?)

 Jeremy incorrectly said/inferred the Bolt EV's 12-volt aux battery could be
used for jump starting an ice. The Bolt EV manual
https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gmownercenter/gmna/dynamic/manuals/2017/Chevrolet/BOLT%20EV/Owner's%20Manual.pdf

 states it is a (small AH capacity) AGM/VRLA PbSO4 12-volt battery. IMO it
would not be wise to use the Bolt EV's 12-volt aux battery to start an ice.
The manual goes into detail about how it is recharged off the main
hi-voltage traction pack (thus you need to keep the EV plugged in when not
in use), and if the 12-volt battery gets drained below 9V that situation can
cause the EV to stop functioning.

 The manual does state you can try boosting your Bolt EV's 12-volt battery
from another vehicle (so jumping to your Bolt EV's 12-volt battery is OK, if
done properly= follow the manual's instructions precisely - rtfm).

 Jeremy mentioned the Bolt has no spare tire as the Bolt EV's tires are
self-sealing
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f13/chevy-bolt-rides-new-type-tire-its-self-sealing-event-puncture-258281/

http://www.chevrolet.com/bolt-ev-electric-vehicle.html
 ... Michelin® self-sealing tires ...

 Jeremy went into some detail about the infotainment system/console that I
did not bother with during my test drive. Jeremy said the Bolt EV does not
come with a map/driving app, but can use your smart phone to receive
instructions, and the only other way to have a mapping feature is via GM's
OnStar, or CarPlay (an iOS app likely via your iphone), see
http://gm-volt.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-220442.html

http://www.chevybolt.org/forum/26-electronics-audio-lighting/1538-chevy-offering-android-auto-apple-carplay-2.html?amp=1
 (android-auto & apple-carplay mapping apps)


[sidebar
The Bolt EV test drive was not on that Twin Peaks road shown at the
beginning of the video, see
https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/49072951/View_of_San_Francisco_from_the_top_of_the_Twin_Peaks.0.png

Which would have been fun both for showing how well the Bolt EV could climb
or come down SF's steep hills, 

Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Tom Parker via EV]

On 24/01/17 23:25, Tom Parker via EV wrote:

On my car, there is only one frame that isn't repeated continuously 
after startup (0x603 is sent once, with a single byte payload which is 
00 in my captures).


I'll try disconnecting the 12v battery tomorrow and see if anything 
different happens at when it's connected, or during the first startup.


I removed the 12V battery and there was no activity on the EV CAN bus 
when it was reconnected. There were also no new messages when I turned 
the car on, and other than 0x603, they all streamed continuously. I 
waited quite a long time (10 minutes maybe) before reconnecting the battery.


I guess this means the BMS authentication is in the repeating messages, 
or it is triggered by some other event than disconnecting the 12V 
battery, or you can have the 12V battery disconnected for a very long 
time without breaking the BMS authentication.

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