Re: [EVDL] Tesla's Self Driving Feature

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

After 40 years in marine navigation and as a private pilot, I’ve learned two 
basic rules regarding autopilots: 

1) trust your instruments, and
2) YOU are responsible for safe operation - not the instruments.

Seems like autonomous driving promoters would have you believe end to end 
autonomous driving is the equivalent of going on Mr Toad ‘s Wild Ride in 
Disneyland.  Anyone  who buys into this notion is a patently unsafe driver and 
shouldn’t be allowed on the road.

Glenn 

Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 8, 2021, at 9:10 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> This is hearsay! Lots of people said their Toyota’s and Lexus suddenly 
> accelerated but this too was ruled as operator error or the accelerator 
> getting stuck in the carpet. Many people try to blame someone else for their 
> mistakes.
> 
> 
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Thursday, July 8, 2021, 7:57 PM, mark hanson via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> 
> 
> I use the base AutoPilot on my Y on long trips (appears to only work on
> painted freeways) that relieves fatigue going down an extended highway but
> *didn't* buy the full self driving feature for an additional $10K.  I really
> like the car now after the first week in March (steep learning curve, no
> dealer info).  The confusion is similar names for the full self driving
> option in Tesla speak.  
> 
> 
> 
> A friend's wife totaled a model 3 on a country road (in full self driving
> mode $10K extra) coming up to a non standard stop sign on a T and  hit a
> close building (brick wall).  It was in an old town where a building was too
> close to the road about 10' (not current set back requirements).  Apparently
> the software misses non standard situations.  So the couple bought another
> model 3 and also purchased the option self driving feature again.  This time
> my friend was driving on another country road (no center line) and in one of
> the turns, the car hit a tree, totaled a second Tesla-3 - (two in two
> years).  He has some medical issues from the accident.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I'm old fashioned, I'm happy with an electric car that just runs J ,
> don't need all the extra foo-foo electric nose-pickers.  I really like the
> seamless long trip fast charging, pre-cools the pack to get 200KW in & zaps
> it up quickly 20 minutes 20-80% by just putting in the destination address &
> routes you to in between fast charging stations.  The cord is short & have
> to back up since the port is in the rear & if towing have to detach (unlike
> the Chevy Bolt).  But the Tesla is more comfortable on long trips.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that the accident rate for the full self driving feature is
> probably underreported though.  
> 
> 
> 
> Have a renewable energy day,
> 
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> Mark E. Hanson
> 
> 184 Vista Lane
> 
> Fincastle, VA 24090
> 
> 540-473-1248 phone, 540-816-0812 cell
> 
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> 
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> 
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> 
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> 
> REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Vandalism charge for charging EV?

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Another approach- go talk with the hotel valet/parking manager. See what he can 
do.  Often the hotel parking garages in multi unit destinations are contracted 
out. The security staff have little to no capability, and sometimes  no 
interest, in problem solving.  

The parking Manager is likely the only person in the parking operation that 
coordinates with guests or the hotels.

Glenn 

Sent from my iPad

> On May 30, 2021, at 6:05 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> 
> I would suspect that the Tesla owned by the hotel manager, (or someone in a 
> position of power.)
> 
> They get a premium parking slot for their car, with charging, plus a guard! 
> Then write it off to the hotel and advertise it as a "perk" to customers.
> 
> I would send a complaint to Hilton headquarters.
> 
> Bill D.
> 
> 
>> On 5/31/2021 8:29 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
>> Hi folks
>> I’m at 1 Beach drive Myrtle Beach listed on EV Hotels/PlugShare as an EV 
>> destination hotel.  They have a large parking garage servicing several 
>> hotels with only two charging stations , one J1772 and one Tesla.  After 
>> paying $1100 for 3 nights I was told by the guard if I parked next to the 
>> other Tesla (that has been charged for two days) and moved the cable, I 
>> would be charged with Vandalism!   Have you ever heard of that ?  He also 
>> said he would NOT contact either car owner in the hotel and ask them to move 
>> their cars that were fully charged.  He said to go to a public pay for 
>> charging station.  Next time I’ll just stay in a cheaper non EV rated hotel 
>> and charge with the general riff raff.
>> Stay charged
>> Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla now using cameras only

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Personally I see the contemporary “autopilot by default in all traffic 
conditions” policy  equally as dangerous as the ill fated Pinto

Seems like auto manufacturers are taking a good thing and purposely adding an 
aspect of Russian roulette to the mix - or maybe Blind Man’s Bluff.



Sent from my iPad

> On May 28, 2021, at 9:32 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 28 May 2021 at 21:08, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
>> 
>> All manufacturing companies are constantly reducing costs, maximizing 
>> profits.
> 
> Right.  And when those cost reductions make the product less safe, the long 
> term cost can end up being much higher.  
> 
> And that's just the economic cost.  The human cost is another matter 
> entirely.  It was cheaper for Ford to pay legal judgements for dead and 
> burned Pinto passengers than to fix the car's gas tank design.  Anybody here 
> want to argue that that was an ethical choice?
> 
> Not that I'm actually drawing an analogy between Tesla's possible hobbling 
> of their autopilot and Ford's Pinto debacle yet.  Let's see what happens.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
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> humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals, and 
> lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, 
> and self-annihilation.
> 
>   -- Johnny Hart
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Re: [EVDL] Ford F-150 Reveal

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Well, you get a bench seat made from 2 x6 and 8” wheels from Horror Freight.

Sent from my iPad

> On May 26, 2021, at 7:09 AM, Christopher Darilek via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> How are they going to make the F-150 Lightening cheaper than the Mach-e ($40k 
> vs $44k) when the F-150 is a ton heavier (6500lb vs 4400lbs), has a larger 
> frontal area, and nearly the same range.. ?
> 
> Does $40k seem like false advertising? 
> 
> -Chris
> http://www.evalbum.com/4743
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Re: [EVDL] Ford F-150 Reveal

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Has Ford even mentioned a fuel cell at this point?

Sent from my iPad

> On May 20, 2021, at 7:11 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:
> 
> Didn’t exactly sneak it in...just put it where it made sense.
> 
> I agree about a range extended, but for those who want the option to pull 
> lots of power out at a construction site, or *maybe* even a landscaper that 
> need to charge their batteries for their equipment, a fuel cell for auxiliary 
> power may make more sense.
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On May 20, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Haha, I new you'd sneak in fuel cells. :) I'll give you this. I think it 
>> makes more sense to do range extension with a fuel cell than with an ICE.
>> 
>> Does anyone have an idea which would be more compact for a given amount of 
>> net energy: fuel cell + tank or battery ?
>> 
>> Peri
>> 
>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
>> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>> 
>> Sent: 19-May-21 10:39:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford F-150 Reveal
>> 
>>> I really don’t care - if it gets people interested in EVs as a cool, high 
>>> performance vehicle, that’s great.
>>> 
>>> This is a middle America meat and potatoes vehicle.
>>> 
>>> Over time it will get lighter, and what you saw was one with added weight 
>>> from a larger battery pack and other extras.
>>> 
>>> I wouldn’t be surprised that option disappeared over time, and if you need 
>>> all that extra juice, you’ll be able to get a fuel cell electric version. 
>>> (Sorry, that’s just the more fitting EV option for that need)
>>> 
>>> I see this vehicle as game-changing as the Tesla.
>>> 
>>> Then there are the other two that they drove up on stage - both look great, 
>>> but actually the light commercial vehicle is of greater import and impact.
>>> 
>>> - Mark
>>> 
>>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>>> 
> On May 19, 2021, at 8:59 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
> wrote:
 
 I think it will be popular. So much for making efficient vehicles - one 
 estimate I read put the small pack at 115kWh. But most buyers won't care. 
 They want the F-150 look, the power, and the range. It must weigh a ton. 
 No, make that 3 tons.
 
 Peri
 
 << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
 Sent: 19-May-21 7:18:43 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] Ford F-150 Reveal
 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjisj5T0VqE Bigger frunk than Tesla. Same 
> price for the low end model. Lots of intelligent features. This is a real 
> competitor to the Cybertruck. Lawrence Rhodes
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>>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Electrify America, CCS & Bolt; ADA (from GGEVA)

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Wouldn’t be a problem in Oregon, they still mandate attendants at all filling 
stations. You can’t do it yourself there.  One attendant works many pumps... 
often, all of them, or at least one every row.   

Sent from my iPad

> On May 19, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> An EV attendant doesn't have to be a significant cost. You simply have an 
> employee of the associated shop ready to run out and help. The rest of the 
> time they are doing stuff in the shop. Worst case is the shop is empty for a 
> moment, just like what currently happens in a small convenience store.
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
> Sent: 19-May-21 7:07:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Electrify America, CCS & Bolt; ADA (from GGEVA)
> 
>>> On 19 May 2021 at 17:46, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> Now, as a person with a disability and disability advocate [I can see
>>> that] there is an obvious physical barrier of use here. Currently,
>>> nationwide under ADA if a person with a disability pulls into a gas
>>> station (inc self-serve) they can request an attendant to pump for
>>> them. It's the law.https://www.ada.gov/gasserve.htm
>> 
>> Hmm.  Lawrence, thanks for passing this along.  It's thought-provoking.
>> 
>> I've been suggesting for some time that EV charging should have payment
>> parity with gasoline and Diesel fuel purchasing.  We should be able to pay
>> for an EV charge with cash or generic credit, just the way we can at any
>> filling station.  We don't have to carry RFID cards or use a smartphone to
>> buy gasoline, why should we have to use that stuff for EV charging?
>> 
>> The response I've gotten is that such a scheme would be too expensive, given
>> the present small demand for EV charging.  There's some validity to this.
>> 
>> Now, the above ADA argument changes things.  If we need attended charging
>> stations for ADA compliance, then I see no reason that we can't also legally
>> require those stations to accept cash and generic credit cards, without need
>> for electronic gizmos.
>> 
>> I suppose that it also means that EV charging away from home will be getting
>> more expensive, to cover the cost of the attendants.  So it goes.  That's
>> the cost of equal access, and I for one don't object to it.
>> 
>> It also means more employment!  Though "EV Charging Attendant" probably
>> won't be an exciting or well paid job, any more than "Filling Station
>> Attendant" is.
>> 
>> As an aside, I've encountered filling stations in Europe, usually ouit in
>> the sticks, that are open 24 hours a day all week.  Often they're locked up
>> and unstaffed on late nights and Sundays (sometimes also Saturdays).  No
>> problem.  They'll still sell you fuel.  You pull in, buy your fuel with your
>> credit card, and go on your way. I haven't yet seen one that takes cash
>> though.
>> 
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> 
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> 
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>> All my life, I've been running through the fields and picking up
>> bright objects. I turn one over and say, "Yeah, there's a story."
>> 
>>  -- Ray Bradbury
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Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system undercharges the 12v battery.

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Hmm, Phil’s comment about battery drain is very interesting.  Up until last 
year, My daughter had an older Lexus SUV hybrid . She worked in San Francisco 
and walked to work, so the car stayed parked for weeks sometimes. When parked 
for a week, the battery pack and the lead acid battery always went dead from 
some mysterious , undetectable current draw.  Neither the dealer or Lexus ever 
traced ( or admitted a design flaw) in the supposed stray current, when parked. 
 We never figured it out. Finally talked her into selling the d#%n thing.  
Wondering if something to do with cell monitoring was killing the batteries.

It’s gone out of our life, ( dad’s are the 24 hr on call emergency fixit guys), 
but still curious.

Thanks ,
Glenn 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 20, 2021, at 9:29 PM, (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
> 
> The problem most people are seeing is the high quiescent drain.  IMO, this
> started with the Prius with the smart-key option.  It was exacerbated with
> the introduction of telematics, which means there's a cell modem always on
> in your car now.  Most modern cars now have both.  So if you drive every
> day, and long enough to get your absorption phase completed, likely not
> going to be much of a problem, but if your car isn't used as often, you are
> in trouble.
> 
> Ultracaps (or any capacitors) have a linear Dv/dt plot, which means voltage
> falls immediately on discharge.  This means to get the capacity anywhere
> CLOSE to what you get with lead-acid, you'd need a ludicrously large cap
> array.
> 
>> On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 8:36 PM George Tyler via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> The leaf battery  behaves much like the 12V Prius battery in my experience.
>> They both seem to fail earlier than they should, but when should they fail?
>> That is "opinion".  The failure mode is different, probably because they
>> don't fail by not turning a started motor? So you don't know capacity is
>> almost zero.
>>I don't think a lithium is good for this application. To get
>> voltages that are close enough you have to use LiPo4 litiums, with a very
>> flat discharge curve. This means that the charging voltage is not optimal,
>> although they do work in this application in ice cars with 14.7V charging.
>> 4
>> cells at 13V is 3.25/cell, that's totally flat for these batteries! 14.7V
>> in
>> an ICE is 3.675V per cell which is about right. Temperature compensation
>> for
>> a lead acid may be way off.  How about a supercap "battery", much less
>> critical. Seeing that we don't notice the leaf battery losing capacity
>> until
>> it's dead, maybe we don't actually need much capacity?
>> GWT
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
>> Sent: Wednesday, 21 April 2021 2:14 pm
>> To: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
>> Cc: Lee Hart 
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system
>> undercharges the 12v battery.
>> 
>> Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>>> https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=22752 According to these guys
>>> a lead battery is not what a Leaf needs. Seems a lithium of some sort
>>> would do great. Another site said the DC/DC converter can put out as
>>> much as 120amps. The brakes and other systems that run on the 12v
>>> system might need a boost if the battery fails and braking is very
>>> important. After finding out that the lead battery is under charged I
>>> suspect an undercharged lithium battery might fair much better and for
>>> longer. Lawrence Rhodes
>> 
>> I don't "buy" it, Lawrence. Too many of his comments are just opinions; not
>> facts. Just a few glaring points:
>> 
>> - A 12v battery *will* reach full charge at 13.0v; it just takes a long
>> time
>> (like a week or so).
>> - He ignores temperature compensation. The Leaf does temperature compensate
>> its charging.
>> - He ignores aging. The older the battery, the lower its basic charging
>> voltage.
>> - 14.4v will easily fully charge a 12v battery. Remember, if it's holding
>> the battery at around 13.0v, it's already close to full; so it takes very
>> little time at 14.4v to finish the job.
>> 
>> Lee
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] BYD Blade

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Interesting article on charger incompatibility impacts. 

 Looks like yet another  case of industrial arrogance and knuckleheadery?

https://apple.news/Abhhjtko0RUeWT_t83XMK1A


Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 28, 2021, at 6:03 PM, dave delman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Anything new/significant happening with BYD Blade battery? I tried searching 
> the archives and couldn't seem to find anything.
> 
> Thank you,
> David Delman
> eLectricDeLorean.com
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Re: [EVDL] Spare tire kit for Tesla Y recommendations?

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Makes sense.  Good info to know.  

Actually I have a 1/4 scale miniature locomotive that I am converting to 
electric drive.  Looking for a small, on board air pump to charge the air brake 
system.  Maintaining 60 PSI into a 3-5 gal reservoir is my goal. So less 
capacity than a tire.  Looks like this one could work.  Thanks for putting it 
out there.

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 22, 2021, at 10:21 AM, (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
> 
> Yeah, Most of the air compressors for sale nowadays are junk.  I
> recommended this one because I still have a similar model from the same
> company that's going strong after many years.  This is especially true if
> you have a light truck and are trying to push 80PSI into a tire.   The unit
> doesn't draw 15A unless it's really working hard.   When a normal ICE car
> is not running, the voltage at the cig lighter socket is usually down to
> around 12v, whereas if the engine's running it can be a few volts higher.
> Obviously on most EV's this is a non-issue.  They also don't want you to
> get stuck on the side of the road with a flat, then after repairing your
> flat, you then find out your car won't crank.
> 
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 10:05 AM John Lussmyer via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon Mar 22 09:53:02 PDT 2021 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>>> Regarding the air compressor link, What does it mean in the ad, where it
>> says ?engine must be running during use??
>>> 
>>> That is a very odd requirement for an air compressor.
>> 
>> Look at the current draw on that one.  15A
>> For many small cars, that will kill the battery quick if the engine isn't
>> running.
>> It also means that it won't take several hours to fill a tire.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck!
>> http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Spare tire kit for Tesla Y recommendations?

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Regarding the air compressor link, What does it mean in the ad, where it says 
“engine must be running during use”?  

That is a very odd requirement for an air compressor.



Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 22, 2021, at 9:39 AM, (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
> 
> I don't recommend a spare.  The diameter of the brake system on the Model Y
> is what controls the minimum wheel size, so you will not be able to fit it
> anywhere but in the rear cargo area.  I recommend a plug kit and a decent
> air compressor.  For 90% of flats you can find the nail or offending
> debris, extract it and apply a plug all without needing to jack the car up,
> remove the lug nuts, etc.   Also, go take a look at how large the wheels
> are on a Tesla, you have to then put this dirty thing back in your car.
> 
> I have plugged probably around 75 tires in my life, mainly mine, but also
> assisting others.  I have a really high success rate, even on the
> occasional sidewall repair.  Plugs are only temporary in this case, but it
> will get you where you are going in most cases.   It's pretty easy to do
> compared to busting lug nuts, and much cleaner.
> 
> Most people no longer even attempt to change a spare in when they get a
> flat.  The automakers know this, so it saves money and increases mileage by
> not adding a heavy spare (wheels have gotten much larger too!)
> 
> I recommend these:
> Plug kit: https://amzn.to/395JDMO
> Compressor: https://amzn.to/3vRgSNu
> 
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 5:52 AM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi folks
>> Can someone recommend a Mini spare tire Kit for the Tesla Y?  I need a
>> complete kit with jack and lug wrench.  There’s Round a spot in Rear trunk
>> but it’s empty.
>> Best regards
>> Mark.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Your mail may arrive by EV - or it may not

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

I lived in Alaska for 30 years. Nearly every apartment and parking spot in the 
state is equipped with an individual electrical outlet to keep cars from 
freezing up during wintertime. Battery chargers, battery blankets, interior 
heaters and dipstick warmers all get plugged into these parking lot outlets. In 
winter, if you don’t plug in your car every time you drive it, you cant use it 
again until spring. 

If we accept today’s apartment dweller access problem as the architectural 
status quo, then yes. It’s indisputable. EV’s will never work for 1/3 to 1/2 of 
the general population.

 However, clearly, certain apartment dwelling demographic segments could be 
eager EV adopters - for example, young people, starting out in their working 
life;   up and coming, 30 somethings, innovative professionals;  those 
established long term renters who can’t afford to purchase their own home; or 
anyone living on a budget who wishes to save fuel and car maintenance costs. 
folks in any of these demographics could lead the way to EV adoption and market 
penetration for apartment dwellers.

So, advocate to these groups, to install car chargers.

Once apartment owners see the benefit in installing electrical outlets, it 
becomes no big deal.   indeed, in Fairbanks, apartment and condo building 
owners who don’t provide these things to tenants, are at a serious competitive 
disadvantage. Guess what they have all done?

Now, does it require an advertising campaign, tax credit, or some other 
incentive to get started? Absolutely. Any social change requires thorough and 
thoughtful informational campaigns. That’s the nature of innovation.  

Isn’t that exactly what the EV community is all about?





Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 25, 2021, at 2:55 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> About 2/3rds of all residences are single family homes by national census.
> IE, fully 1/3rd generally cannot conveniently own an EV.
> 
> I used that figure in my talks until I got statistics relevant to
> Maryland.  In Maryland (and presumably other mid-atlantic urban states) the
> figure is closer to 50%.
> 
> That is a huge factor but is also something that clever DIY individuals can
> help overcome on a case basis.
> Bob
> 
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 10:36 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> Most people are not attached to ICEs. They will buy EVs when the price
>> is compelling and they don't fear inconvenience of charging.
>> 
>> On price, I suspect people will take fuel and maintenance into some
>> account but not too much. The sticker price will have to be close. And,
>> frankly, a new ICE will easily go for 10 years without any costly
>> maintenance.
>> 
>> On charging, it's easy for us EV adopters to ignore or work around
>> charging issues. But, whether they need it or not, even two-car
>> households are used to *each* car having the ability to go on a road
>> trip. I see more and more people having a "moment of clarity" and
>> realizing they can get by with one road-trip car, so that's changing.
>> But on a road trip, few will be willing to wait for 30-60 minutes of
>> charging every 2-3 hours. And, there's the plethora of apartment
>> dwellers where charging infrastructure is difficult and costly to
>> install.
>> 
>> I really don't think people in general are resisting EVs, they just want
>> a known entity.
>> 
>> And, I think the same is true for the USPS. EV tech has changed a lot
>> since their prior experiments and, now, there may be very little
>> resistance by drivers. Right now, DeJoy is the problem, not the drivers.
>> 
>> Peri
>> 
>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "jamie via EV" 
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>> Cc: "jamie" 
>> Sent: 25-Feb-21 12:03:26 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Your mail may arrive by EV - or it may not
>> 
>>> 
>>> Good points about the importance of political/emotional as well as
>> technical reasons. In fact the world is constantly changing and things can
>> become emotionally cool and politically popular over time.
>>> 
>>> Technology improves. Clunky satellite phones that cost way too much and
>> didn't work that well have morphed into amazing little internet
>> communication and computing devices that most people today take for granted
>> and wouldn't be without.
>>> 
>>> EVs are climbing the adoption curve. EVs have become cool. People who buy
>> them tend to say they will never go back. Major automobile companies are
>> investing heavily into EVs going forward. Local and national governments,
>> and some auto manufacturers, are putting a cutoff deadline on building and
>> selling new fossil fuel cars.
>>> 
>>> Tesla, on stock value, has become worth more than the other major auto
>> companies combined, or some such, and their cars out-perform gas cars on
>> multiple metrics. They can't make them fast enough to satisfy demand. We're
>> a long way past the early EV experiments, lead acid 

Re: [EVDL] Pandemic Cell Fade

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

One of the Battery cells going bad, maybe.

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 3, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Bill Dennis via EV  wrote:
> 
> Pre-pandemic, when my mother-in-law charged her 2017 Chevy Volt, it would
> have about 60 miles electric range.  Throughout the pandemic, she's done
> nothing with the car except drive it to the top of the driveway and back to
> check the mail.  When we were finally able to get to Georgia to visit her
> this week after fifteen months, I notice that a full charge shows only 40
> miles range now.  Anyone ever notice anything similar, or have any guess
> why?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bill
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Updating old EV truck with genset?

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Have you investigated new lithium battery cell packs?  Some offer dramatic 
improvements in Ahr capacity- hence longer range.

Here are a couple of sources:

https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/used-tesla-model-s-modules.html

https://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/crm.asp?action=contactus

Probably others out there as well.


Glenn P.

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 1, 2021, at 12:18 PM, John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
> 
> On Mon Feb 01 11:03:29 PST 2021 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>> Good morning kids;
>> I have a need to know..  The electric truck I converted several years ago 
>> has a definite need for much longer range. I would like to install a 
>> generator that will not just recharge the pack but power the truck down the 
>> road.
>> The creation was originally 144v with 24 6v big batteries. That gave me 
>> about 70 miles if I was calm and careful. Well I am not calm or careful. I 
>> got around 45 miles out of it. The pack lasted about 4.5 years. I want to 
>> rebuild the truck with 12 big 12v batteries with the addition of a 
>> generator. I have no idea where to get a generator good enough to meet my 
>> needs.
>> I have been reading and following this list for many years, I got the parts 
>> I used to build my truck from members here..  So I am confidant you guys can 
>> stear me in the right direction.
>> Enjoy the rest of the winter and keep your packs warm.
> 
> 1) Don't use Lead Acid batteries.  Lithium (used Leaf modules) don't cost 
> much more, are lighter, and will last FAR longer.
> 2) Do you know how much current you were drawing when cruising down the road? 
>  For my F250, I use around 30KW, for an S10, it will probably be more like 
> 15KW.
> 
> Don't use a cheap genset - you'll be polluting as much as a Semi tractor.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
> http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
> 
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Re: [EVDL] 2035 GM will cease ICE production

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Fantastic.  This really is an incredibly fast sea change in society.  More 
Incredible that the very foundations of the fossil fuel cartel are crumbling 
away underneath them - even as they stand up daily and lie about climate  
change impacts and warn against economic change. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 28, 2021, at 6:01 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> It's a long way off but, hey, they are making it official.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/01/28/general-motors-electric/
> 
> GM has said it would invest $27 billion in electric vehicles and associated 
> products between 2020 and 2025, ... includes refurbishing factories and 
> investing in battery production in conjunction with LG Chem, a South Korean 
> battery maker.
> 
> By late 2025, about 40 percent of the company’s U.S. models will be 
> battery-powered electric vehicles,
> 
> The electric-vehicle industry has grown exponentially in the past decade but 
> still represents less than 2 percent of automobiles sold in the United States.
> 
> The timing of the GM announcement was tied in large part to the election of 
> Joe Biden ... Biden signed an executive order that calls for the federal 
> fleet of approximately 645,000 vehicles to be converted to electric power. He 
> has also vowed to expand charging stations for electric cars, revise and 
> extend electric-vehicle tax credits and tighten fuel economy standards for 
> gas-powered vehicles.
> 
> Volkswagen, for example, is planning to launch almost 70 new electric models 
> in the next 10 years... Ford ... is spending $11.5 billion through 2022 on 
> new EVs. Tesla plans to increase sales of its all-electric fleet.
> 
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
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Re: [EVDL] Battery backup/Grid tie/solar inverter and 20kw charging (DC)

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Same as QuantumScape, miracle battery company. Send money now, they will 
deliver in five years, if they can find a way to invent their technology and 
bring it to market.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 17, 2020, at 6:01 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 12/17/20 6:09 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>> Got a demo at our monthly GGEVA meeting. For 5 thousand dollars a lot of 
>> bang for the bucks.  Lawrence Rhodes https://dcbel.ossiaco.com/
> 
> They had hardware to demonstrate?  The website reeks vaporware to me.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Ev book recommendation

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Thanks Cliff,  very helpful. I’ll put this on my holiday wish list.

Best regards,
Glenn 

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 16, 2020, at 12:39 PM, Cliff Crabtree via EV  wrote:
> 
> Glen,
> 
> Here is a list of the books I've been using the most:
> 
> "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle" third edition, Seth Leitman & Bob Briant
> 
>   ISBN 978-0-07-177056-9
> 
>   Chapter 5 has many useful formulas.
> 
> "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle", Bob Briant
> 
>   ISBN 0-8306-4232-3
> 
>   This is a rewrite of the first book with some additional information.
> 
>   Formulas are in chapter 6 in this book.
> 
> DIY Lithium Batteries How to Build Your Own Battery Packs", Micah Toll
> 
>   ISBN 978-0-9899067-0-8
> 
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Cliff
> 
> 
>> On 12/16/20 10:49 AM, Glenn Brooks via EV wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> My apologies if this has been asked many times before.
>> 
>> Looking for recommendations on buying a couple of  good current books that 
>> discuss DIY EV conversion. Would like the book(s) to have chapters on motor 
>> and circuitry basics, and some current discussion on understanding and 
>> figuring torque requirements and rolling resistance for various, smaller, 
>> non automotive  vehicles (Park Gauge trains for example)
>> 
>> And how to work with lithium batteries and modern controllers.
>> 
>> Thanks, hope this is not asking to much!
>> 
>> Glenn B.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
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[EVDL] Ev book recommendation

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Hello all,

My apologies if this has been asked many times before.  

Looking for recommendations on buying a couple of  good current books that 
discuss DIY EV conversion. Would like the book(s) to have chapters on motor and 
circuitry basics, and some current discussion on understanding and figuring 
torque requirements and rolling resistance for various, smaller, non automotive 
 vehicles (Park Gauge trains for example)

And how to work with lithium batteries and modern controllers.

Thanks, hope this is not asking to much!

Glenn B.





Sent from my iPad
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20201214 through 20201220

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Iam having a hard time with the QuantumScape story line.  If you look closely 
at their documentation - e.g. read the really small fine print, buried deep at 
the end of their corporate history page, they say they have no prototype for 
the solid state battery they “will manufacture”.  And that they are still 
trying to develop the revolutionary new, battery membrane that will enable all 
this to work.  When and if they are successful, they need two years to build a 
prototype facility to test the design, then another four to five years to 
enlarge the plant  to actually start producing and selling commercial 
quantities. 

So 5-7 years away from actually selling anything. IF they can discover the 
revolutionary new battery membrane to make all this work.

And They never include these key business metrics when they hype their 
progress.  

Sounds like something akin to the old time snake oil salesmen selling lush 
Western farmland  out beyond Oklahoma.  but turns out they were really talking 
about the Sonoran desert.

Am I missing something in their pitch?

Glenn B.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 14, 2020, at 12:05 AM, ev ln via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-vw-pr-QuantumScape-li-ion-goes-farther-charges-faster-tp4699514.html
> EVLN: (vw-pr) QuantumScape li-ion> goes farther  faster
> VW-backed QuantumScape says its solid-state batteries will enable EVs to 
> travel farther and charge faster
> Dec 8, 2020 ... Most EV companies use “wet” lithium-ion batteries, which use 
> liquid electrolytes ... and contain flammable material that can be hazardous 
> in the event of a crash. ... electric vehicles that can travel 80 percent 
> further ... A potential game-changer for EVs ...
> https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/68476816/QuantumScape_Lab.0.jpg
> 
> + (EVSE warning: Covid-lockdown @Lake_Tahoe-CA)
> 
> + (Sun eruption> disrupts power grids)
> 
> 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-We-Can-t-Take-Toyota-s-The-Future-of-EVs-Word-tp4699515.html
> EVLN: We Can't Take Toyota's 'The Future of EVs' Word
> Toyota will unveil a first all-electric vehicle in 2021 ...
> Toyota says it will be the first of six electric vehicles to come from the 
> automaker. Speculation is that it is the same model the manufacturer 
> presented in the ...
> ...
> https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/13/we-cant-take-toyotas-word-for-it-on-future-bevs/
> We Can't Take Toyota's Word For It On Future BEVs
> 
> + (TMC fiercely pushing replacement-part-profitable fcvs)
> 
> 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Proterra-li-ion-production-line-creates-LA-CA-jobs-tp4699516.html
> EVLN: Proterra li-ion production line creates LA-CA jobs
> Next-generation Proterra EV battery manufacturing facility opens in Los 
> Angeles County
> December 10, 2020 ... Proterra ... heavy-duty electric transportation, today 
> announced the opening of a new battery production line co-located in its EV 
> bus manufacturing facility in Los Angeles County  Proterra ... will 
> manufacture Proterra’s industry-leading battery packs featuring new, next 
> generation cells  create dozens of new jobs in Los Angeles County ...
> https://www.proterra.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Proterra-Battery-Manufacturing-Facility-Los-Angeles-1.jpg
> 
> + (.il nEV for elderly @Dubai show)
> 
> 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Volvo-sez-EVs-struggle-hi-speeds-tall-bodies-are-a-drag-tp4699517.html
> EVLN: Volvo sez EVs struggle @hi-speeds> tall bodies are a drag
> Volvo Says Design Of Electric Cars Must Change
> 2020-12-12  These body styles are more practical, but due to their tall 
> stature, they experience a lot more drag at highway speeds than a lower 
> vehicle like a sedan.  Thus, electric SUVs tend to drain their batteries 
> quicker at speed as wind resistance forces the electric motors to work harder 
> ...
> https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/840x560/786000/100/786154.jpg
> 
> + (.ch Carlsberg’s brewery adds Renault delivery e-Truck)
> 
> 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-X-fatal-wall-crash-fire-kr-apartment-lot-tp4699518.html
> EVLN: Tesla-X fatal wall-crash  @ .kr apartment lot
> South Korea investigates fatal crash of Tesla Model X
> December 11, 2020  Reuters  The Model X smashed into the wall and caught fire 
> in the parking lot of a Seoul apartment building late on Wednesday, police 
> said. It took about an hour to put out the fire ... is also under 
> investigation by South Korea's transport ministry over its autopilot 
> functions ...
> 
> + (vw-pr> The what-me-worry of charging)
> 
> 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Boxy-Bollinger-e-trucks-a-more-spacious-frunk-tp4699519.html
> EVLN: Boxy Bollinger e-trucks> a more spacious frunk
> Bollinger shows the production-bound versions of the B1 and the B2
> December 11, 2020 ... 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf balance after months of 80% charging

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

You might try calling Romeo Power in Southern Ca.  They are a smallish,  up and 
coming advanced Lithium battery manufacturer that is preparing to go public 
this month with a SPAC reverse merger deal.  They may be able to build a 
replacement Leaf battery for the after market rebuild/salvage market.  They 
seem to be  innovative enuf to potentially be interested in creating a line of 
business out of it- maybe they just need some leadership or evangelist to put 
them on track 

Glenn B. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 13, 2020, at 12:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Could it be done for that price and size ? Same form factor and not too much 
> more weight ?
> 
> Considering we're talking about a market of, say, 50,000
> https://insideevs.com/news/347565/nissan-leaf-sales-outlook-us-2019/
> that would be a relatively small market. If the manufacturer made $500 profit 
> per battery, that would be $25M profit before taxes. R + manufacturing 
> staff would eat up a good chunk of that. I have no idea what it would cost to 
> setup manufacturing and buy raw materials.
> 
> But if it could be done, I'd probably buy one. I think it would directly 
> translate to an increase in the sales value, if I didn't end up keeping it 
> very long. And it would make it a lot more useful that it is now (about 30 
> miles range on a full charge in winter). In fact, just an inexpensive 30kwh 
> pack with thermal management would be sufficient.
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
>> 
>> That is certainly the case.  Can anyone explain why no one is supplying 
>> ~50kwh batteries to "drop in" old Leafs at a cost of $5k-$7k?
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Astongate. Aston Martin anti-EV propaganda

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Well, if Sky News Australia is anything to judge by, this lot is five steps to 
the right of National Inquirer.  Thanks for calling out the gaslighters!

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 8, 2020, at 2:00 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I know that a couple of semi-apologists here will probably dismiss my 
> comment, but this is just another round in a long-running, well-funded anti-
> EV campaign.  
> 
> It follows an early example set in 1995 by the infamous Carnegie Mellon 
> study.  That formerly respected institution sold its prestigious name to 
> produce a bizarre screed claiming that lead battery powered EVs would 
> produce 60 times the lead emissions of ICEVs.  
> 
> Science Magazine also gave up its reputation to publish the study.
> 
> So did the New York Times, which put it on the front page.
> 
> The study's 3 authors reached this conclusion by making every worst-case 
> assumption possible:
> 
> Understating typical specific energy for lead batteries (18 Wh/kg!)
> Overstating the typical lead battery mass in EVs (> 1500kg!)
> Understating battery cycle life
> Overstating lead mining emissions (using 49 year old data)
> Understating lead battery recyling percentage
> Overstating battery recycling lead emissions 
> Assuming that lead batteries would always power EVs
> Neglecting lead battery use in ICEVs
> 
> So who did Carnegie Mellon and Science sell out to?  Surprise, the study was 
> funded by Mobil Oil and other petroleum companies, and reached the precise 
> conclusions the funders requested.
> 
> Despite many articles thoroughly debunking the study's conclusions, it just 
> won't go away.  It was quoted again and again through the late 1990s and 
> even into the 2000s.  
> 
> In fact, when the lead author of that study, "environmental economist" 
> Lester B. Lave, died in 2011, his Carnegie Mellon obituary outrageously 
> repeated - quite reverentially - the same bogus conclusions from the same 
> bogus 1995 study.
> 
> Here we are now, in the Nth verse of this dissonant old song.  There are 
> countless foundations and think tanks worldwide (especially concentrated in 
> the US) funded by oil wealth.  This is part of their funders' long term 
> strategy.  They're patient, and they intend to win.  They consider it an 
> investment.  And they have plenty of money to invest in it.
> 
> Rupert Murdoch's media outlets always salivate over their "findings."  He 
> controls hundreds of media operations worldwide, and that makes him a high-
> wattage amplifier for anti-EV propaganda.
> 
> Few media people have done more to thwart environmental progress in English 
> speaking nations than Rupert Murdoch.  Hell has a special high-temperature 
> spot reserved to sanitize him when he arrives.
> 
> In case you'd like to know what media outlets to boycott, Murdoch's major 
> outlets include the following.  This is based on the latest information I 
> have.  Some of this may have changed by now, so corrections are welcome.
> 
> Fox TV (News, sports, business, network)
> National Geographic (!)
> The Wall Street Journal
> Barrons
> Marketwatch
> The New York Post
> 
> In the UK and Australia Murdoch fully or partially controls: 
> 
> Sky UK Limited
> Sky News of Australia
> The Sun
> The Times
> The Australian
> The Daily Telegraph
> Herald Sun
> Courier Mail
> Business Spectator
> 
> Murdoch also has full or partial interests in:
> 
> carguide.com 
> HarperCollins Publishers
> Hulu 
> SKY Italy
> SKY Germany
> TATA SKY (Asia)
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> All we learn from history is history repeats.
> 
>  -- Andrew Ratshin
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] 'All's not well with UK public charging' / Autonomy

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Also the class 1 railroads in the US are notorious for opposing infrastructure 
upgrades and improved technology for rolling Stock, such as automatic braking 
systems for freight cars, GPS safety navigation and routing systems, etc.  And  
America’s RR rights of way are physically incapable of supporting 200MPH 
passenger trains. No one wants to foot the  cost for improving the roadbed, 
unfortunately.

And in fairness, Europe and Japan high speed rail are all essentially short 
line service (50-300 mile routes mostly). They get a high return on their 
investment.  The US rail Mainline’s are up to 2500 miles long each, for each 
major carrier - and with (almost) no passenger load. We only have one or two 
high speed short line services that make sense; DC- philly corridor for 
example. There may be others, but I don’t travel much any more...

Glenn 

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 6, 2020, at 2:50 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 6 Dec 2020 at 21:54, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Every year they pull up more tracks and covert the railway to something
>> else.  I doubt they will ever be able to get them back. 
> 
> I'm not a rail expert by any means, and maybe I don't pay attention in the 
> right places, but I don't see this happening anywhere but in the US.  
> 
> With the possible exception of the UK and their Tory wrecking crew, Europe 
> and Asia are pretty well invested in, and committed to, rail service.  
> Europe's yearly rail passenger-km figure is about 24 times what ours is.
> 
> Ride the TGV in France or the Shinkansen in Japan and you'll see why US 
> railroads literally can't keep up.  Both run most lines between 150 and 
> 200mph.  (Obligatory EV content: they're electric trains.)
> 
> China and other places also have high speed rail, but I haven't read much 
> about those systems.
> 
> It doesn't help that US politicians of a certain persuasion, and dozens of 
> influential US thnk tanks, keep beating on our railroads.  Much of this is 
> funded and led by oil money.  I'm looking at YOU, Charles Koch.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send 
> this to all thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any 
> spam, lest I smite thee. 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] 'All's not well with UK public charging' / Autonomy

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

I thought the original poster was more contemplating light and medium duty 
trucks running on a rail system embedded  perhaps in a local rail/road network 
around a metro area, rather than moving heavy truck traffic onto the rail 
system. Which they already do now with intermodal shipping - e.g. Connex vans 
and wheeled trailers loaded piggyback on flat bed rail cars. A street/ rail 
network opens a huge set of infrastructure problems, not the least of which are 
convincing traffic engineers, planners, and tax payers to think about tearing 
up huge swaths of existing roadway and electric utility to add rail. 

BTW, most urban streets and hiways are completely inundated with layers of 
buried underground electric, gas, water, drainage, and internet cable 
utilities. The cost of digging all this up and replacing is utter phenomenonal. 
$1billion/mile in the case of Honolulu’s retrofitting 5 miles of Dillingham 
Blvd to accommodate light rail from Eva Beach into downtown Honolulu. Which 
ironically, was the original ROW for the Oahu Railroad narrow gauge rail 
service from 1880 through 1946.

Glenn 

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 5, 2020, at 6:10 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 6 Dec 2020 at 0:50, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> 
>> there would be fewer workers from longshoremen to rig drivers and,
>> therefore, the unions would fight hard against it. 
> 
> I'm not so sure.  After 40 years of union busting, it seems to me that other 
> than police unions, US unions don't have much remaining power. 
> 
>> (I think a plan like this would have to include a retraining and
>> placement program for displaced workers.) 
> 
> That's a good idea that never seems to work very effectively.
> 
> Whether it's fundamentally flawed or just never implemented right, I don't 
> know, but my admittedly limited observation is that when well-paid workers 
> are displaced by progress, most of them end up in low-pay and low-skill jobs 
> no matter how hard anyone tries.
> 
> But for better and/or worse, human costs have never stopped progress.  They 
> certainly don't when large, wealthy corporations stand to gain still more 
> wealth from such progress.  
> 
> Much as I hate to see people hurt, if human costs stopped progress, we'd 
> have precious little of the latter.
> 
>> As for passenger service, I don't think it precludes it at all. Nothing 
>> would prevent using the existing model of sharing the rails with Amtrak.
> 
> Hmm, maybe I misunderstood the concept here.  I thought we were still 
> talking about laying rails down the center of a dedicated highway lane.  But 
> you and Lee seem to be proposing something different.  
> 
> It sounds like semitrailers would be fitted with rail trucks (wheel units) 
> so they could drive onto existing tracks, engage the tracks, disengage the 
> road wheels, and travel in unlinked, computer-controlled convoys. 
> 
> Presumably these convoys would somehow be under the same control as trains 
> are, so they could properly share the tracks.  
> 
> Do I have that right?
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who 
> can't mind their own business, because they have no business of 
> their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has. 
> 
>--William Burroughs 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] 'All's not well with UK public charging' / Autonomy

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

There are actually three forms of resistance commonly associated with rail 
transport: 1) train resistance - the loaded weight of the consist and 
locomotive; 2) grade and curvature resistance imparted by friction between  the 
rails and wheels, and 3) vehicle speed.  These three factors establish the 
tractive effort that your powered unit needs to overcome to pull goods along a 
rail.

On the positive side, steel rails have a very low coefficient of friction, so 
easily can move many hundreds, if not thousands of tons of deadweight, compared 
to wheeled vehicles operating on asphalt. On the negative side, grades over 2% 
create very high rolling resistance. So most highway grades won’t accommodate 
rail transport - unless the wheels are individually powered, and hydraulically 
grip the rail from sides and top.

So lots to consider with rail transport methods

Glenn 
Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:14 PM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> The gravitational energy you put into a vehicle climbing a hill, comes back
> to you on the downhill side. The effect of weight is often overestimated
> for this reason. Battery power is very efficient, in terms of how much you
> put in, is close to what you get out, unlike with fossil fuels which are
> inordinately wasteful. Not to mention the general filthy nature of it.
> 
> For some years now solar production is less costly than fossil fuel
> production. It just takes a long time for existing production to wear out
> and be retired. The sunk costs of building refineries is enormous and solar
> needs its basic infrastructure to be constructed up front. Real estate,
> substations, transmission and distribution lines, point of sale apparatus,
> and so on. These are what make adoption of renewables slow. However, new
> construction of solar and wind are less costly than new construction of
> fossil fuel based energy means.
> 
> On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 10:55 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> If nearly all the savings is from reducing wind resistance, by drafting,
>> then the rails aren't really needed. We could build more expensive
>> infrastructure, but a cheaper solution is often better. In other words,
>> the focus should be on making drafting possible, not reducing rolling
>> resistance.
>> 
>> On wikipedia, one estimate for Teslas semi battery is 11800 kg, or more
>> than 20 tons. So, yes, a lot of weight. So, non battery power could
>> help. But it doesn't have to be rails. Centenaries would be much less
>> expensive to construct. Still, my guess is the long term cheapest
>> solution is the large battery. Over time, they will get cheaper and
>> lighter.
> 
> 
> 
>> Big Snip
> -- 
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
> Google Phone and Text
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] EVs not greener than fossil-fuel vehicles?

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Seems like people don’t  usually take Into account the cumulative value of 
green energy uses in these discussions, e.g. the long term, cascading benefits 
of using renewables. For example, Petroleum products burned 50 years ago still 
degrade our atmosphere, causing continually accelerating costs for crop 
production, public health, HVAC electricity consumption and disaster recovery.

We just drove down through the length of California’s Central Valley - a major 
agricultural region on the west coast (50 x 450 miles of crop lands). At the 
bottom of the valley , for 60 or 70 miles down through Bakersfield, we couldn’t 
see the mountains forming the valley until we started driving up Tejon pass, 
into the LA Basin. Visibility was less than one mile, all because of petroleum 
pollution.  5 miles up the pass, at the summit, visibility was basically 
unlimited. CAVU as they say.

So, if one takes account of future impacts, something like  a net present value 
approach, the EV energy benefits would be substantially higher than simply 
calculating daily replacements of fossil fuel electricity generation with 
charging stations.

Glenn B.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 3, 2020, at 9:02 AM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  wrote:
> 
> I'm actually in the process of doing exactly that.  My solar panels are 
> scheduled to arrive today.  
> Starting with 2.5kwh for the charging station, but my wife only drives about 
> 30-35 miles a day.  I'll have enough identical panels to increase to ~3.5kwh 
> if I need to.
> She volunteers to work at a local USO and doesn't leave until 1pm, which 
> gives me all morning to charge directly from solar.
> 
> 
> December 1, 2020 12:11 PM, "Robert Bruninga via EV"  wrote:
> 
>> My preferred comparison for the impact of EV's is simply that it takes
>> about 12 solar panels (3 kW) per EV in the USA to provide the average 40
>> mile daily usage.
>> IE, enough solar panels to cover one parking space provides electric
>> transportation "for life".
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Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] EVs not greener than fossil-fuel vehicles?

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Current trends in solar point toward mini grids and localized storage points 
that connect all the rooftops in a neighborhood, or district, with a 
distributed, un-interrupted, on-demand, energy storage and transmission system. 
The key to efficiency is each cell, indeed the entire service area, is 
controlled by a microprocessor network that automatically optimizes load, 
storage, and discharge, and feeds the regional utility system as needed. The 
old days of a bunch of one off, independent solar panels, nailed up  hither and 
there are long gone - or at least, on their way out.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 1, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:
> 
> I think that this analysis has been done many times, and the amount that you 
> get is relatively small compared to the demand, AND the cost can be very high 
> if you are including solar films for flat roof solar. And many roofs cannot 
> use solar. 
> 
> You also need to think about storage and transmission.
> 
> And for those efficiency mavens who think it is the be-all, end-all (I’m not 
> one, depending on what you are talking about), it’s pretty inefficient.
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 1, 2020, at 7:45 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> What is true is there are plenty of roofs, particularly in southern 
>> california, that could be producing more than  ample electricity. Look at 
>> this sat photo, which if you zoom out, you'll see that it's one of the 
>> greener parts of LA:
>> 
>> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Los+Angeles,+CA/@34.02302,-118.3071616,593m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c2c75ddc27da13:0xe22fdf6f254608f4!8m2!3d34.0522342!4d-118.2436849
>> 
>> I would guess that the land, including streets, is close to 50% covered by 
>> roofs. I think, with current solar technology and some sort of storage, 
>> that's more than ample for 100% of residential power with power left over 
>> for tall buildings. No need for kilometers of solar farms.
>> 
>> Peri
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "jim--- via EV" 
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>> Cc: "j...@k6ccc.org" ; ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Sent: 01-Dec-20 7:29:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] EVs not greener than fossil-fuel vehicles?
>> 
>>> 
>>> Bill, you better check your math.  It would take a lot more than "a few 
>>> square kilometers of solar panels put up to supply the entire world’s 
>>> energy needs".  In very rough numbers, a square kilometer of fairly high 
>>> conversion rate solar panels is about 250 MegaWatts for roughly a quarter 
>>> of the day (varies a lot depending on location, and installation, and of 
>>> course it's a curve, not a on for x hours followed by off for y hours).  
>>> That is not enough to power downtown Los Angeles - and I'm not talking 
>>> about the metro area, just downtown.
>>> 
>>> 250 MW is one fairly small (by today's standards) power plant generating 
>>> unit.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jim Walls
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: "Bill Woodcock via EV" 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 07:06
>>> To: "Peri Hartman" , "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>>> 
>>> Cc: "Bill Woodcock" 
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] EVs not greener than fossil-fuel vehicles?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
 
 Yes, you could give away Teslas !
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Yes, more or less.  Over a seven-or-eight-year period, every gasoline and 
>>> diesel vehicle in the world could be replaced with electric at no cost, the 
>>> entire petrochemical fuel infrastructure could be dismantled, and a few 
>>> square kilometers of solar panels put up to supply the entire world’s 
>>> energy needs, after which energy would no longer be a cost, and we could 
>>> reclaim the many trillions of dollars that are being spent on petrochemical 
>>> subsidies each year for actual productive uses.
>>> 
>>> There are people who argue otherwise, but they’re fundamentally innumerate. 
>>>  And that’s really unfortunate.
>>> 
>>> 
 -- Original Message --
 From: "Bill Woodcock via EV" 
 To: p...@ingineerix.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 
 Cc: "Bill Woodcock" 
 Sent: 01-Dec-20 2:30:31 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] EVs not greener than fossil-fuel vehicles?
 
> Last time I ran the numbers, every fuel vehicle in the world is being 
> subsidized by more than USD 5000/year in governmental subsidies to the 
> gasoline and diesel industries.
> 
> There’s a huge amount that you could do with that money.
> 
>> On Nov 30, 2020, at 11:32 PM, (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Lawrence is right, Based on my research, just the Electrical energy used
>> ALONE for all the processes that culminate with a gallon of gasoline in
>> your tank can move an average EV at least 50 miles.  Another surprising
>> fact: CA's 

Re: [EVDL] More Evidence - Past the tipping point

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

GM seems to the mainstream automotive EV leader in the US. although I read Ford 
intends to produce a battery powered Ford F-150 in two years.

The most interesting EV pickup for me, so far, is the Lordstown motors Pick up. 
Trying for assembly line production in 2021.  

Any thoughts on this one?

Glenn

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 25, 2020, at 3:04 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> On 25 Nov 2020 at 22:46, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> 
>> Maybe outside the US, which in the long run affects the US, they're
>> past the tipping point. 
> 
> I think this is true.  Governments in the EU and Asia have committed to CO2 
> reduction.  They see EVs as part of the plan and are promoting them.  
> 
> For example, during the first wave of the health emergency in France, the 
> Macron administration offered French automakers help, including an increase 
> in the EV purchase subsidy from 6000 to 7000 euros.  The automakers wanted 
> subsidies for ICEV purchases too.  The answer was "nope."  
> 
> How much that established market actually affects the US is debatable.  
> 
> The fact that they're making EVs for other nations at least makes it 
> possible for them to offer them here.  However, the stringent fleet average 
> CO2 standard there mean that EU gets first priority for their EV production, 
> so they can still sell their more profitable ICEVs there.  
> 
> Also, just as the automakers have never offered their most efficient ICEVs 
> in the US, they aren't likely to offer their most efficient EVs here either. 
> If they let us have anything, we'll mostly get the hulking EV-SUVs that they 
> think will sell well.  They're pushing those in Europe too, BTW, for the 
> same reason that they're pushing their ICEV utes.
> 
>> Well, the story goes on, but you get the point. People, like my friend, 
>> are very interested but they are not at all committed. The manufacturers 
>> could
>> ditch EVs in an instant and not dent sales in the near term.
> 
> It's always been that way with most of my friends.  No matter how good EV 
> range gets, somehow, it's just never enough.  To them, EVs are a great idea -
> for some other person.  
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Listen to the mustn'ts, child; listen to the don'ts. 
> Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. 
> Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me: 
> Anything can happen, child.  Anything can be.  
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a second bearing to forklift motors

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Thanks.My big question is how to mount the bearings. Would you mount a double 
bearing exterior to the case or attached to the inside of the front cover?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 2, 2020, at 7:14 PM, dennis berube via EV  wrote:
> 
> Consider a double wide.I put one on all the side Pull (chain)fork lift 
> motors.Such as the Rocket electric drag bike.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Glenn Brooks via EV 
> To: Ev List Administrator via EV 
> Cc: Glenn Brooks 
> Sent: Tue, Nov 3, 2020 11:08 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Adding a second bearing to forklift motors
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I hope this is not to rudimentary a question:  Is there a best practice 
> document, or “how to” out there somewhere  that describes adding a second 
> bearing to a forklift drive motor?  
> 
> My local used forklift motor reseller says most of his motors are single 
> bearing motors, and adding a second bearing entails to much machining for him 
> to do.
> 
> Well, I have a machine shop at home, but no idea what is involved, as Iam new 
> to the EV world.
> 
> So any tips or suggestions for retrofitting a second bearing would be most 
> welcome.
> 
> (BTW, my initial thought is why not just put an external pillow block, or 
> flange bearing, around the output shaft..but, no idea what is the proper 
> method to retrofit.]
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Glenn B.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
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[EVDL] Adding a second bearing to forklift motors

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Hello all,

I hope this is not to rudimentary a question:  Is there a best practice 
document, or “how to” out there somewhere  that describes adding a second 
bearing to a forklift drive motor?  

My local used forklift motor reseller says most of his motors are single 
bearing motors, and adding a second bearing entails to much machining for him 
to do.

Well, I have a machine shop at home, but no idea what is involved, as Iam new 
to the EV world.

So any tips or suggestions for retrofitting a second bearing would be most 
welcome.

 (BTW, my initial thought is why not just put an external pillow block, or 
flange bearing, around the output shaft..but, no idea what is the proper method 
to retrofit.]

Thanks!

Glenn B.

Sent from my iPad
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Re: [EVDL] Curtis controller clone

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Thanks Lee, Iam new at the EV curve, or road, should I say. Most of my 
experience with miniature locomotives is in steam power. A different creature 
altogether.

Indeed this is a series wound motor, rated at 1.7kw.  Dims are 7” diameter, 
approximately 12” long case.  When I bought, the vendor said it was good for 
5-6 Kw, hence I brought it home. Looking at it today, seems like a big 
disconnect between what I need and what the guy said this motor will 
accomplish.  

I’ve run the tractive effort and train resistance numbers and come up with an 
ideal max theoretical train weight for this loco of around 5000-6000#.  Which 
requires say 8-10 Kw in two motors, or 4Kw per each truck.  

My plan is to install and test one motor on one truck. If it works out well, 
add another motor and upgrade the body and chassis, etc.  

If I can get 4 Kw out of the motor I’d be happy, and continue on... but don’t 
want to go to the expense and time of fitting an undersized power plant..,

I guess the question is, is it feasible, or a stretch, with this 7” motor?

Thanks much, 
Glenn 




Sent from my iPad

On Oct 29, 2020, at 4:53 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

>>> What kind of motors are you using?
> 
> Glenn Brooks via EV wrote:
>> So far experimenting with used 7” diameter 24v forklift motors.
> 
> If it's a forklift motor, it's almost certain to be series DC. That's 
> actually a good choice for your application. They have very high starting 
> torque, to get a heavy train moving without excessive battery current.
> 
>> However just brought one home and the inspection plate shows less
>> than half the Kw rating than what the guy told me.
> 
> The KW rating on the nameplate of an electric motor is very conservative. 
> Unless it says otherwise, it's generally the continuous-duty rating. The 
> peak-power rating is several times higher.
> 
> Also, sellers chronically exaggerate the horsepower. Go by weight. Electric 
> motors are a mature technology, so the continuous-duty and peak-power ratings 
> are closely comparable between motors of the same weight.
> 
>> Would like to work with a 5-7 Kw motor if possible.
> 
> At that level, a 24v or 36v golf cart motor will be fine. These are very 
> common. Just be sure to get one that has bearings at *both* ends; many depend 
> on the second bearing to be in the mating gearbox.
> 
>> I’ll check out the older version of the Curtis.  I will likely need
>> to run several motors and controllers off one speed control.
> 
> With series motors, there's no need to use more than one controller. Just 
> wire the motors in parallel to the same controller.
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> -- 
> A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
> nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
>-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Curtis controller clone

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Lee,  

So far experimenting with used 7” diameter 24v forklift motors.  However just 
brought one home and the inspection plate shows less than half the Kw rating 
than what the guy told me. So likely will take it back and try to exchange for 
a larger 36v motor.  Would like to work with a 5-7 Kw motor if possible 
actually two- one for each truck on the locomotive. But only one set of powered 
axles, as the first iteration.  It’s an experiment at the stage...

I’ll check out the older version of the Curtis.  I will likely need to run 
several motors and controllers off one speed control.

Thanks
Glenn 



Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 29, 2020, at 12:59 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Glenn Brooks via EV wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> Iam trying to decide what 24v controller to buy, to set up a two motor, 24 
>> v, 200 amp, (400 amp total) miniature train electric conversion- two 
>> separate motors, each driving separate axles. I seem I have run into two 
>> unknowns concerning the Curtis 1204m -46x series controller. Hoping someone 
>> can enlighten me.
>> 
>> 1). Several to many  Asia Curtis clones are selling for deeply discounted 
>> prices: $150 versus the US OEM price of $450.  Wondering if the reliability 
>> and duty cycle is similar for the aftermarket controllers?
>> 
>> 2) Curtis sells a proprietary programming interface hand held device that 
>> costs more than their controller. ($600). Can someone confirm their 
>> alternative downloadable software is a viable alternative to this 
>> proprietary hand held device?
> 
> Hi Glenn,
> 
> Maybe I'm an old fuddy-duddy; but I've always had good luck with the classic 
> non-micro based Curtis controllers (1204-1xx to -3xx, 1205-1xx). They were 
> well-made, documented, repairable, and you didn't need a programmer to set 
> them up. They are still pretty easy to find at affordable prices.
> 
> What kind of motors are you using?
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> -- 
> A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
> nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
>-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] Curtis controller clone

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Hello all,

Iam trying to decide what 24v controller to buy, to set up a two motor, 24 v, 
200 amp, (400 amp total) miniature train electric conversion- two separate 
motors, each driving separate axles. I seem I have run into two unknowns 
concerning the Curtis 1204m -46x series controller. Hoping someone can 
enlighten me.

1). Several to many  Asia Curtis clones are selling for deeply discounted 
prices: $150 versus the US OEM price of $450.  Wondering if the reliability and 
duty cycle is similar for the aftermarket controllers?

2) Curtis sells a proprietary programming interface hand held device that costs 
more than their controller. ($600). Can someone confirm their alternative 
downloadable software is a viable alternative to this proprietary hand held 
device?

Thanks much,
Glenn Brooks


Sent from my iPad
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Re: [EVDL] miniature train EV project

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Well, right  now it has the original straight gas ICE, with attached reduction 
gear box. But it’s been rebuilt and sitting in a crate for an indeterminate 
number of years. I really don’t want to reinstall the motor, rather, convert to 
all electric with a nice new battery pack.  

The one fun thing about trains is, if you run out of space in the loco, just 
add another rail car behind and throw more batteries, motors, and other stuff 
on board.  (The big boys called these extra power units : “B” units.)

Glenn B.

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 22, 2020, at 5:01 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Are you sure that rating applies to wet areas ? Imagine the rails are wet and 
> someone lies across them or touches one with each hand.
> 
> << Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
> https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lee Hart" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> 
> Sent: 22-Oct-20 3:29:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] miniature train EV project
> 
>> Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>> Are you sure 24V is safe ? Yes, at low current, and it could be current
>>> limited. But in that case there's probably not enough current to be a
>>> significant part of running the motor.
>> 
>> UL considers voltages less than 24vac and 8 amps maximum as a "safe" 
>> class-II circuit, which can be exposed so people can touch it. You may feel 
>> it; but it won't injure you.
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
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[EVDL] miniature train EV project

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Hello everyone,

Looking for advice and maybe several options for electrifying my 1/4 scale 
antique park gauge miniature locomotive.

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These are 12? gauge locos, approx 8? long, 26? wide and weigh around 1000# 
fully equipped with power train, trucks (frames that hold axles and wheels).  

Traditionally these locos were powered with 4 cylinder gas motors and small 
reduction gears connected with shafts to each truck, and could pull 4-5 
passenger cars with a total weight of around 6,000-8,000 pounds, at a max speed 
of 10 MPH.

I would like to replace the gas engine with one or two, used, 5 Kw smallish 
24volt, series wound forklift motors.  One per truck.

However, so far, haven?t been able to determine what the amp hour draw might be 
for these size motors, or what kind of battery pack would allow 6-8 hours 
operation.

Anybody have any experience with these size motors?

Or alternatively, any suggestions as to what might be a reasonable, DYI 
conversion?

Thanks much, for any information, or ideas, you might be able to offer.

Regards,

Glenn B.

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