Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Larry Gales via EV]

Well, H2 is not nearly as good for cars as batteries, but truly green H2
(created through electrolysis) certainly can be very clean and could likely
be very useful in long range transport (ships, airplanes, and possibly long
range trucks).

It turns out that a recent analysis shows that "blue" H2, produced from
natural gas with carbon capture is not clean at all, but true green H2
(from electrolysis) should be very important in the future.  So the
headline:

  Hydrogen isn't green at all

is very, very wrong.

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 12:31 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the
> data.
>
> You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well,
> yes, you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce
> electricity to run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not
> fossil-derived, and the entire industry is moving towards 100%
> “decarbonized” hydrogen, with most believing that “green” hydrogen will be
> everywhere very soon.
>
> I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but
> the use of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for
> GHG impacts, the most direct measure is a CI score.
>
> Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and
> while I get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric
> vehicle (they *are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see renewable
> numbers of as low as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest is fossil.
>
> So who is putting out more GHGs?
>
> This is the problem with analysis that don’t analyze the real world as
> most would view the data.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Aug 12, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises
> Doubts.
> >
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/climate/hydrogen-fuel-natural-gas-pollution.html
> >
> > ...
> > The main stumbling block: Most hydrogen used today is extracted from
> natural gas in a process that requires a lot of energy and emits vast
> amounts of carbon dioxide. Producing natural gas also releases methane, a
> particularly potent greenhouse gas.
> > ...
> > And while the natural gas industry has proposed capturing that carbon
> dioxide — creating what it promotes as emissions-free, “blue” hydrogen —
> even that fuel still emits more across its entire supply chain than simply
> burning natural gas, according to the paper, published Thursday in the
> Energy Science & Engineering journal by researchers from Cornell and
> Stanford Universities.
> > ...
> > The researchers assumed that 3.5 percent of the gas drilled from the
> ground leaks into the atmosphere, an assumption that draws on mounting
> research that has found that drilling for natural gas emits far more
> methane than previously known.
> >
> > They also took into account the natural gas required to power the carbon
> capture technology. In all, they found that the greenhouse gas footprint of
> blue hydrogen was more than 20 percent greater than burning natural gas or
> coal for heat.
> > ...
> > Jack Brouwer, director of the National Fuel Cell Research Center at the
> University of California, Irvine, said that hydrogen would ultimately need
> to be made using renewable energy to produce what the industry calls green
> hydrogen, which uses renewable energy to split water into its constituent
> parts, hydrogen and oxygen. That, he said, would eliminate the fossil and
> the methane leaks.
> > ...
> > Today, very little hydrogen is green, because the process involved —
> electrolyzing water to separate hydrogen atoms from oxygen — is hugely
> energy intensive. In most places, there simply isn’t enough renewable
> energy to produce vast amounts of green hydrogen. (Although if the world
> does start to produce excess renewable energy, converting it to hydrogen
> would be one way to store it.)
> > ...
> >
> > ---
> >
> > I'm glad to see this published mainstream. People don't seem to think
> about the source for hydrogen, only about the the aspect of filling a tank
> in a few minutes and driving off. Long live EVs !!!
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >
> > ___
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> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Larry Gales via EV]

Yes, these micro cars, such as the Elf and Tactical Elf are way too
expensive, but that is almost certainly due to their limited production.
But their advantages in an urban environment in terms of operating cost,
quietness, dramatically reduced energy, and traffic/parking space should
draw attention from those who address climate change to bring about the
nec[cessary cost reductions.

By the way, although e-Bikes do not come with built-in weather protection,
they do allow you to be comfortable in cold rainy weather.  With a human
powered bike, you can never be comfortable in cold, rainy weather because
if you dress to be warm and dry you will be soaked with sweat from within
after the first hill.  But ebikes (at least those with sufficient power,
such as 750 watts)  give you almost complete control over how much effort
you use, so you never have to sweat unless you want to.

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 3:14 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 24 May 2021 at 11:26, Larry Gales via EV wrote:
>
> > The smaller you make a gas vehicle, the uglier, noisier, dirtier, they
> > become . In addition, they are proportionally less efficient.  So small
> gas
> > vehicles are generally a bad idea: they are responsible for much of the
> > horrific pollution you see in much of asia.
>
> This is true in practice, but I don't think it's inherent to their size.
> They COULD be clean and quiet, even with ICEVs.  However, that's usually
> not
> required by law, so the manufacturers don't bother.
>
> From what I've read, the engines usually fitted are of crude design, with
> little or no emission control.  I'd guess air cooled with poppet or
> pushrod
> valves, simple carburetors, and mechanical ignition systems.  I know that
> a
> fair number of Tuktuks are powered by two-stroke engines.  Some, I think,
> are Diesel. They're gross polluters, and noisy to boot.
>
> The reason that EV is better for these uses is the same reason that it's
> better for all road transportation.  The only difference is that normal
> passenger ICEVs have evolved significantly and have mandated emission
> controls, so the improvement for them isn't quite as dramatic.
>
> > Right now, the only type of micro electric vehicle that is surging in
> > a major way, is the electric bike. But I believe that NEVs should also
> > become a major part of the mix.
>
> E-bikes were the first EV sucess story of our time, from about the 1990s.
>
> IMO the key to that success is that they're cheap.  That's because they
> sell
> in large volumes in Asia, particularly China.  Economy of scale,
> competition, and cheap sweatshop labor have driven the price down to where
> you can get an fairly decent E-bike for well under $1k.
>
> E-bikes are so cheap that for many middle income folks they can almost be
> an
> impulse purchase.  It's a hobby or fun weekend vehicle at almost a toy
> price.  If you're the right kind of person, it can even be a commuter.
>
> But the most important factor is that E-bike cost is in line with their
> utility.  Yeah, that $700 E-bike does a lot less than a car, but it costs
> about 1/30 as much as an "entry level" car.
>
> An NEV also does less than a car, but more than an E-bike.  For one thing,
> it keeps you dry!  (Or should.)  You should be able to sell one if you
> price
> it in line with its level of utility.
>
> And that's a problem.  I can tell you that in the early 2000s, NEVs priced
> at (IIRC) $7-10k didn't sell in significant numbers.  Part of that may be
> because they looked like (and were) glorified golf cars.  But I think that
> a
> big reason is that they were just too close to the price of low-end ICEVs,
> while being far less practical and comfortable.
>
> Still true today.  Right now in France you can get a basic 2-seat 5hp
> Renault Twizy EV (doors optional!) that will go 28mph.  It costs just over
> 10k euros.  Or you can buy a 4-seat Twingo ICEV for 13.5k euros, close the
> (standard) doors, and take it up to 100mph, if you're brave enough.
>
> You know who in France buys a Twizy instead of a Twingo?  People who've
> lost
> their driving licenses from drunk driving, because in France you can drive
> a
> 28mph car without a driving license.  (Really.)
>
> It's not just perception of value.  An NEV *is* low valiue compared to the
> cheapest ICEV.  It only carries 2 people and minimal cargo.  You can't
> take
> it on most roads.  To get across town without the innerbelt, you have to
> pull out the map and plot a course that here in the Midwest often goes
> through rough neighborhoods - at 25 mph.
>
> So if an NEV is going to have anything close to the success that E-b

Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Larry Gales via EV]

The smaller you make a gas vehicle, the uglier, noisier, dirtier, they
become . In addition, they are proportionally less efficient.  So small gas
vehicles are generally a bad idea: they are responsible for much of the
horrific pollution you see in much of asia. .  But electric vehicles
downsize beautifully: they are always quiet, clean, and very efficient.
Given that 75% of all trips we make in cars today are within  10 miles, and
the average number of people in a car is 1.7, very small electric vehicles
could make a major difference in our cities.

Right now, the only type of micro electric vehicle that is surging in a
major way, is the electric bike. But I believe that NEVs should also become
a major part of the mix.

On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 8:07 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:

> There are only two ways out of my neighborhood.  The short way is on a
> highway with a 55mph speed limit.  The long way (adds 6 miles) has a posted
> speed limit of 45.
> So technically NEVs would not be a legal way to get to town.  On the other
> hand, I doubt anyone else around here ( including the cops) realize that,
> so you could probably get away with it.
>
> On the other hand, every used NEV I've seen for sale costs as much or more
> than a used EV, so I've never serious considered buying one.
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> May 22, 2021 5:05 PM, "Peri Hartman via EV"  wrote:
>
> > Depends on your needs. I bicycle. My wife could use a small NEV, not a
> moped. She needs protection
> > from weather and a place to put groceries, etc. And additional safety.
> We live in a place with
> > mostly 20 and 25mph streets for miles in every direction.
> > Peri
> >
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Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen

[Larry Gales via EV]

Well, natural gas may be cheaper at present, but it is neither sustainable
nor clean

On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 3:36 PM Jim Walls via EV  wrote:

> On 05/09/2021 12:37, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote (in part):
> > My case in point is over the last couple of years we have switched from
> natural gas for heating and cooking. It was the pandemic and we drove much
> less but with the use of electric space heaters, induction cooking, heat
> pump clothes drying, electric hot water heater(old school)
>
> I heat my house, make hot water, and cook (except for the microwave)
> with natural gas.  I can do all that for less than electric heating one
> room part time.  I'm in no hurry to move away from natural gas for
> making heat.
>
> --
> 73
> -
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> j...@k6ccc.org
> Ofc:  818-548-4804
> http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
> AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
>
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Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen

[Larry Gales via EV]

There are 3 major types of flying to consider: (1) VTOL (mainly
helicopters), (2) regional flights up to 600 miles (more than 1/2 of all
commercial flights are within 600 miles), and (3) long distance flights,
more than 600 miles.

For the first two types, battery powered electric aircraft (like the 600+
mile range Eviation Alice), and VTOL are simply far superior to what we
have now, in terms of cleanliness, quietness, safety, smoothness, and
dramatically lower fuel and maintenance costs.  So, instead of flying less,
we will likely be flying more, and paying much less.

Some time ago I ran the figures for the cost of CH4 (methane) fuel if we
created CH4 by (a) electrolyzing water to get H2, (b) using Direct Air
Capture to get CO2, and (c) using the Sabatier process to produce CH4.
When burned in a jet engine it is carbon neutral because the CO2 we emit is
exactly the amount of CO2 that we captured.

I don't remember the exact cost of the fuel, but it was less than twice
what it is now.  But, given that fuel cost is only 20% of the cost for
current flights, that translates to prices about 20% more than at present.

So, maybe the very low cost of short range battery powered aircraft which
makeup more than 1/2 of all flights could subsidize the longer flights?




On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:36 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

> If future true carbon neutral is "handwaving", then I'd love to hear your
> proposal for long-distance air travel?  What have you got?
>
> Right now until we have something like fusion, There isn't any current tech
> that can handle it.  People aren't just going to stop flying.
>
> The only path I can see right now is Biofuels, Yes it's dirty now, just
> like coal on the grid powering EVs, but it most definitely can be fixed to
> be at least carbon neutral.  The solution to get free-enterprise to work on
> this is a real carbon tax.
>
> On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 1:46 PM EVDL Administrator  wrote:
>
> > On 8 May 2021 at 10:10, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> >
> > > Biofuels can at least be carbon neutral, as you can close the
> > > carbon cycle.  It will take a long way to get there of course, as the
> > > complete biofuel production cycle is also still a carbon intensive
> > > operation, but this can be fixed over time.
> >
> > With all due respect, "this can be fixed over time" is a bit too much
> hand-
> > waving for my taste.
> >
> > The problem with biofuels is that growing and harvesting crops,
> processing
> > them, and transporting the fuel to the use point requires substantial
> > energy
> > input, and most of it comes from carbon based fuels.  Even fertilizer and
> > pesticides are made from petroleum.  I just don't see that equation
> > changing
> > fast enough to get us to carbon-neutral in time.
> >
> > The only biofuel application I can think of that *might* get closer
> sooner
> > -
> > and I'm not 100% sure about even this - is electricity generation.  For
> > example, Uruguay's power system runs largely on pulverized Eucalyptus
> > wood.
> > The problem with this is that petroleum giants have governments bought
> and
> > paid for, and they can't make money from distributing wood chips as
> easily
> > as they can from corn processed into ethanol.
> >
> > There's also the fact that food turned into fuel while people are
> starving
> > round the world has some ... ethical considerations.
> >
> > > To get to electrification quicker, I still think some hybridization is
> > > good.
> >
> > Your point about improving utilization of limited battery-production
> > capacity is a good one.  We need to keep plugging ahead (sorry) with
> > battery
> > recycling, and with developing batteries that use less exotic materials.
> > NiMH, anyone?  Hello?
> >
> > But at the consumer level, I think that the use case for hybrids - I mean
> > real ones, not "you naver have to plug it in" pseudo-hybrids - is fading
> > as
> > true BEV battery capacity grows and rapid charging facilities multiply.
> >
> > It's also easier and more efficient to add PV capacity to EV charging
> than
> > it is to add "renewability" to ICEV refueling.
> >
> > Finally, a BEV is mechanically much simpler and at least theoretically
> > more
> > reliable than an ICEV, let alone a hybrid with the complexity of both.  I
> > haven't run the numbers, but intuitively, manufacturing a BEV has to be
> > less
> > carbon intensive than manufacturing a hybrid, and it should have a longer
> > service life.
> >
> > Like LPs and phono cartridges in 1980, today's ICEVs are highly complex,
> > almost impossibly refined machines only made affordable by serial
> > production
> > and massive amounts of long-term development.
> >
> > Like CD players in the late 1980s and early 1990s, EVs are evolving
> > rapidly
> > and quickly declining in cost, thanks to economy of scale and research
> > into
> > battery optimization.
> >
> > Perhaps I'm being uncharacteristically overoptimistic, and I could
> > certainly
> > be wrong, but I think that what CDs did t

Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen

[Larry Gales via EV]

Certainly H2 makes no sense for most transportation or most
heating/cooking.  But it appears to have potential for long term energy
storage (days, weeks, or months), and for long range aviation and rocket
fuel, although in the latter cases it would probably be better to combine
H2 from electrolysis with CO2 captured from the air, to make CH4 using the
Sabatier process. CH4 is far less bulky than H2 and it would be much easier
to convert long range aircraft to it rather than H2, and Elon Musk is using
CH4 in his revolutionary Starship.  When you burn this type of CH4 you do
put CO2 into the atmosphere, but exactly the same amount that you
originally took out of the atmosphere.

On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 12:24 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

> From what research I've done, I believe BioFuels are a better stop gap than
> H2.
>
> H2 is a boondoggle.   I just can't find a use case that makes sense, it's
> poor systemic efficiency, and super-high infrastructure cost take it out of
> consideration.
>
> We'll still need some kind of energy dense solution for things like air
> travel.  Biofuels can at least be carbon neutral, as you can close the
> carbon cycle.  It will take a long way to get there of course, as the
> complete biofuel production cycle is also still a carbon intensive
> operation, but this can be fixed over time.
>
> To get to electrification quicker, I still think some hybridization is
> good.  I'm part of this project: https://youtu.be/TuLE7CcSvRc
> It is a good way to get more electric cars on the road faster.  The lower
> cost and battery size mean more cars in the fleet faster, and the same
> battery supply that can build one Tesla Model 3 or Y can now build more
> than 4 cars instead of just one.   Unlike H2, this can be implemented now,
> and can allow biofuels to be phased in without any new tech on the car or
> distribution infrastructure side.  Also removes the immediate requirement
> to build more fast charging infrastructure while still allowing long
> distance travel.
>
> On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 6:09 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Resending... didn't go through.
> >
> > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Peri Hartman" 
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> > Sent: 07-May-21 6:27:44 PM
> > Subject: opinion article on hydrogen
> >
> > >This article claims that producing hydrogen will remain too expensive
> and
> > therefore people will continue to choose to use natural gas if there
> isn't
> > an electric alternative. It also mentions the poor efficiency of
> producing
> > it.
> > >
> > >Using hydrogen fuel risks locking in reliance on fossil fuels,
> > researchers warn
> > >
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/may/06/hydrogen-fuel-risks-reliance-on-fossil-fuels
> > >
> > >...
> > >Fuels produced from hydrogen can be used as straight replacements for
> oil
> > and gas and can be low-carbon, if renewable electricity is used to
> produce
> > these “e-fuels”. However, the research found that using the electricity
> > directly to power cars and warm houses was far more efficient.
> > >...
> > >The analysis estimated that hydrogen-based fuels would be very expensive
> > and scarce in the coming decade. Therefore, equipment such as
> > “hydrogen-ready” boilers could end up reliant on fossil gas and continue
> to
> > produce the carbon emissions driving global heating.
> > >...
> > >The research, published in the journal Nature Climate Change, calculated
> > that producing and burning hydrogen-based fuels in home gas boilers
> > required six to 14 times more electricity than heat pumps providing the
> > same warmth. This is because energy is wasted in creating the hydrogen,
> > then the e-fuel, then in burning it. For cars, using e-fuels requires
> five
> > times more electricity than is needed than for battery-powered cars.
> > >...
> > >Daryl Wilson, the executive director of the global, industry-backed
> > Hydrogen Council, said hydrogen could become the most competitive
> > low-carbon solution for some sectors by 2030, such as long-haul trucking
> > and steel.
> > >...
> > >
> > >---
> > >
> > >Peri
> > >
> > ><< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Million Mile Battery

[Larry Gales via EV]

Well, a person may not DRIVE more than 300,000 miles in 16 years, but the
cycle life of that million mile battery is so long that you can use the
battery for other purposes without wearing it out, which can earn you
money, such as powering your house, or stabilizing the electric grid based
on solar and wind. This would bring major benefits not just to the owner
but to society as well.

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:27 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 9 Jun 2020 at 9:52, moskowitz via EV wrote:
>
> > Extending that lifespan is viewed as a key advance because the pack
> could be
> > reused in a second vehicle.
>
> This sounds great IF IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS.  Still, I have some trouble
> seeing
> such a gigantic cycle life increase as a significant advantage for the
> typical EV owner.
>
> First, there's that 16 year time limit.  The average person isn't going to
> put much more than 300,000 miles (if that) on a vehicle in 16 years.  So
> that, not a million miles, is the real world lifespan, at least in a
> consumer vehicle.
>
> Second, when the average person buys a new car, he expects to get a 100%
> new
> car.  I don't see much market for putting used batteries in new cars.  I
> could be wrong.
>
> It might have more value for very high mileage use, such as taxicabs (if
> they survive) or OTR trucks.
>
> > It would cost about 10% more than the batteries now inside EVs, said
> > Zeng
>
> In the capitalist world, the cost to produce something is only distantly
> related to what it costs the buyer. Rather, it's "how much can I get for
> this?"
>
> A million mile battery may only cost 10% more to manufacture, but you and
> I
> won't pay 10% more for it.  I expect that a million mile battery (if it
> actually arrives) will cost something between 2 and 6 times as much as a
> 150,000 mile battery.  The main financial advantage will go to big
> institutional investors, not to us consumers.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] FW: EnergyObserver's First Transatlantic Passage a Complete Success ...

[Larry Gales via EV]

While I fully agree that a fuel cell for a car is foolish, the one
limitation of batteries is energy density.  In those applications where
energy density is the MOST critical factor, such a LONG distance ocean and
air travel, H2 makes sense as it has 7 times the energy density of
batteries.  Yes, it is inefficient, but it does make long distance travel
carbon free, which batteries cannot do.

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 9:09 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> And Toyota does it again.  Promotes hydrogen even when it makes no sense!
> Someone sent me this article.
>
>
> https://www.h2-view.com/story/energy-observer-unprecedented-levels-of-performance-on-first-transatlantic-passage/
>
>
>
> But this article caused me to do some digging, because I was very
> suspicious of their claims of hydrogen power.
>
>
>
> Making one’s own hydrogen from water is a very inefficient process.  And
> sure enough, when I looked it up, the ship can only make hydrogen when it
> is pierside because it needs MORE power than all of its solar panels just
> to make hydrogen (from the grid).
>
>
>
> And as everyone (except Toyota and Honda) know, hydrogen is a boondoggle
> because there is no source of hydrogen on earth other than electrolysis
> from water (which is grossly inefficient use of electricity) when the
> electricity can be better used to power the ship or car in the first
> place.  Right now most hydrogen comes from Natural gas which just throws
> more carbon into the air making it one of the dirty fossil fuels we are
> trying to get away from..
>
>
>
> Yes, hydrogen made sense 10 years ago when it was more cost effective than
> batteries.  But that was before electric cars drove the price of batteries
> down ten-to-one!  Now it is just a boondoggle for some companies to take
> advantage of (ten year old policy) and scam the government for dollars.
> It’s a dead end.
>
>
>
> In the future, when there is so much solar and wind to provide 100% of our
> needs, then there will of course be days of excess power and then it makes
> sense to use that excess power to make hydrogen in bulk.  And then not try
> to figure out how to distribute it to every car or boat tank, but to simply
> use the hydrogen in bulk to make electricity when the solar and winds are
> less.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the article.  I t is good background material.  I cant wait to
> retire and eventually get back to making my own solar boat.
>
>
>
> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 91, Issue 6

[Larry Gales via EV]

I was very happy when you spoke up at SEVA.  Although I thought my
calculations were reasonable, I did not have them peer reviewed, and so I
was not sure if I had missed some important aspect, but your actual results
confirmed my views.  So, thanks a lot.

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 2:34 PM Offgrid Systems via EV 
wrote:

> Hey Larry, I think that was me. I did car/house/solar+storage and we are
> about 95% net zero on an annualized basis. I am installing a little more
> solar and converting my diesel tractor to get to 100%. The upfront cost
> is there but now the savings are big. Low fuel and maintenance costs for
> the EV's. Same for a passive house, with the bonus being excellent air
> quality inside, and cozy warm in the winter. And solar, even here in the
> great Pacific Northwest is like magic, super low cost to maintain,
> basically clean them off once per year. It's the perfect retirement plan
> for me, low outgo, maximum payback and supreme fun!
>
> Tim Economu
>
> On 5/6/2020 9:13 AM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> > Some time ago I made a presentation at the Seattle Electric Vehicle
> > Association (SEVA) in which I showed that, even in the Seattle area which
> > has the worst solar energy in the USA (other than Alaska), by combining 3
> > existing technologies:  (1) electric cars, like the Model 3, (2) the
> > European Passive House Design, and (3) a 10 kW solar panel, that the
> > combination of house+cars not only is net positive in terms of energy,
> but
> > reduces the total amount of energy use by a factor of 9-10, even when you
> > include the energy needed to manufacture and install the 10 kW solar
> panel.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At the end of this presentation, one of the SEVA members got up and said
> > that he had actually done what  I merely calculate and talk about, and
> that
> > my figures are very close to what he has observed in reality.
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Re: [EVDL] POTH, Renewables and Nuclear

[Larry Gales via EV]

I sent this reply about Moore's film to a friend of mine, but I will
reproduce it here:

Well, I have had it with Michael Moore.  At an earlier time I was somewhat
annoyed when he went DEF CON 1 about a Governor who wore blackface 20+
years ago when he was in college (yes, a very stupid thing to do), but who
had a very good civil rights record and was well supported by the black
community, and, who after this blackface revelation, will likely be even
more conscious of civil rights.  But he failed to satisfy Moore’s absolute
purity test.



But now, Moore, while he did not direct this film, was a part of the
production and fully supports an assault on renewable energy.  Mind you,
this is NOT a criticism of the environmental damage that some renewable
energy causes:  that is fair game.  He is opposed to the very IDEA of
renewable energy: that it is basically a con game supported by the wealthy.



I watched ¾ of the movie “Planet of the Humans”, and found at least 8 or 9
glaring lies or misrepresentations that destroy the purported claims.  But
here is just one: that solar PV is less than 8% efficient, and it would
take the space of a football field to power just 10 houses.  Average solar
PV panels are typically 17% efficient, but those from SunPower, while about
15% more expensive, are 21-22% efficient, and there are many net-zero solar
houses which produce as much solar energy as they use, with less than 1/2
of the roof covered by solar PV.  There are also a number of net positive
energy houses and buildings such as the Bullitt building in Seattle whose
rooftop solar panels produce 60% more energy than is used, despite the fact
that it uses energy to treat all the water (that is, rain water) that the
building uses, and nearly all the garbage as well.



Bur there is more. His film does not address the long life of electric
cars, such as a Tesla Model 3, which is by far the best selling electric
car in the world, where the drive train lasts 2-3 times as long as a gas
car, and with minimal maintenance, which itself is a major environmental
benefit, plus the fact that this high performance electric car uses
drastically LESS energy (4-5 times less) than a gas car driven the same
distance at the same speeds.



Some time ago I made a presentation at the Seattle Electric Vehicle
Association (SEVA) in which I showed that, even in the Seattle area which
has the worst solar energy in the USA (other than Alaska), by combining 3
existing technologies:  (1) electric cars, like the Model 3, (2) the
European Passive House Design, and (3) a 10 kW solar panel, that the
combination of house+cars not only is net positive in terms of energy, but
reduces the total amount of energy use by a factor of 9-10, even when you
include the energy needed to manufacture and install the 10 kW solar panel.




At the end of this presentation, one of the SEVA members got up and said
that he had actually done what  I merely calculate and talk about, and that
my figures are very close to what he has observed in reality.



So we don’t just replace X amount of dirty energy with X amount of clean
energy, we replace it with 1/10 the amount of (clean) energy.  This huge
reduction in energy use is also a very major environmental benefit and
moves us toward a more sustainable civilization without sending us back to
the 18th century.



With some additional changes, such as a 1200 sq. foot houses vs 2000 sq.
feet, and replacing one of the 2 electric cars with a micro car that
handles most of the city driving, I can reduce the energy to 1/20 of the
amount in Seattle, and to 1/30 of the amount in average places in the
country.



There were many other false claims, such that solar PV only lasts 10 years
(30-40 is more like it), batteries need to be replaced every 2 years (Tesla
batteries retain 80% of their capacity after 500,000 miles, about 30 years
of driving), that it takes more energy to create solar and wind turbines
then they create (wind turbines produce 18-20 times more energy then they
consume, solar at least 6 times more), that there is no renewable solution
to the variable output of solar/wind, etc.



This is such an important issue for our future that such misinformation is
a tragedy.
d

On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 7:24 PM Mark Laity-Snyder via EV 
wrote:

> Ok so I been doing thinking about Planet of the Humans.  I haven't seen it
> yet but have read a lot of reviews on it.  What do you folks think?
> I also read this
> https://www.caradvice.com.au/845775/electric-car-batteries-environmental-cost/
>  that
> someone posted.  Sorry I couldn't find who and I watched this Why
> renewables can’t save the planet | Michael Shellenberger | TEDxDanubia
>
> |
> |
> |
> |  |  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
> |
> |  |
> Why renewables can’t save the planet | Michael Shellenberger | TEDxDanubia
>
> Environmentalists have long promoted renewable energy sources like solar
> panels and wind farms to save the clima...
>  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
>
> What do you guys think about th

Re: [EVDL] watts per mile ev motorcycle vs prius

[Larry Gales via EV]

Another way of computing that is you get about 13.7 miles/kWh (40/2.88).
This compares with 4.3 miles/kWh over 10,000 miles for my long range Tesla
model 3

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 7:45 PM evtlfp20 via EV  wrote:

>
> I seen add on battery packs for cars and am surprised  how small they
> are,  so that must mean watts per mile is way lower.
>
> My scooter uses 40 amps  at 72 volt s and 40 mph . so whats my watts per
> mile ?
>
> verses like a leaf at 40 mph ?
>
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Re: [EVDL] V2G for my grid tied solar?

[Larry Gales via EV]

This is probably overkill for your particular needs, as it is based on
Tesla Model 3 cars, but here is the URL of a recent talk I gave on V2G:

https://staff.washington.edu/larryg/Energy/SEVA-V2G.pptx

On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 9:28 AM Damon Henry via EV  wrote:

> I know there has been a lot of churn the last few  years over Vehicle to
> Grid technology.  I'm not sure how many people really want the utilities to
> take over their vehicle state of charge, so I'm not sure how viable the
> whole concept is.
>
> With my grid tied solar system my solar stops producing if the grid goes
> down.  One way to prevent this is to have a battery backup system in
> place.  That's usually an investment of at least several thousand dollars.
>
> I have two factory OEM PHEVs sitting in my driveway with significant
> battery packs.  I also have a Juicebox 40 for charging which has some
> charging intelligence already built into it for their Juicenet program, but
> not really V2G.  I feel like I am tantalizingly close to a great solution.
>
> So here is the question that I have.  How far am I from being able to
> utilize my car batteries through the OEM port and an EVSE charger, to feed
> an inverter and keep my house alive and my solar producing during a power
> outage?  Is this tech currently being developed, or is it still just a
> dream that my come true some day?
>
> BTW - I have lived in my house for 20+ years and rarely lose power, but
> "being prepared" is always on my agenda.  I suspect that if I really want a
> solution within the next couple of years I will need to buy a separate
> battery for my solar system, or a generator...
>
> thanks
> Damon
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Re: [EVDL] JDPower paid to poo-poo EV-sales> more paid4-koch-kool-aid

[Larry Gales via EV]

How about a car that is much more fun to drive, that costs 2-5 times less
to fuel, half the cost for maintenance, is much safer (e.g., Tesla 3 crash
tests), lasts much longer, is totally quiet, smooth, and clean, etc.  Those
sound like real world solutions to me

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 7:22 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> This survey result shouldn't surprise anybody.  Right now the US is awash
> in
> petroleum.  To be blunt, at the moment EVs don't solve any problems or
> provide any advantages that the average person in the US cares much
> about.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: [EVDL] Stella Vie information for John.

[Larry Gales via EV]

I  don't know why web sites that feature a technology do not create a
standard table that shows the major specs.  Looking at a number of Stella
Vie websites, the best I can get for the specs for the Stella Vie (as
opposed to Stella Lux) is:
  length:  16.5 feet
  width: 5.4 feet
  weight:827 lbs.
  battery:15.2 kWh  (?)
  solar PV:  1.2 peak kW  (?)  4 sq. meters




On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:50 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

>  https://solarteameindhoven.nl/stella-vie/
>  Here is some info on the latest Stella car.  Lawrence Rhodes
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof option> too small a surface

[Larry Gales via EV]

In my analysis of the Stella vehicles, I assume that the 1.5 kW PV array
delivers the overall performance of a 0.9 kW array (60%) mounted on the
roof of a house.  But the most important aspects of the Stella vehicles are
their low weight (830 lbs.) and extremely low CD (0.16?).  They claim 400
miles with a 15.2 kWh battery, which works out to 26+ miles/kWh.  When I
assume a more modest value of 20 miles/kWh, since the average American
family has two cars that are driven a combined 20,000 mile/year (consuming
about 28,000 kWh/year), the Stella Lux would consume 1000 kWh/year, 28
times less.  But if you base the energy on the embedded  energy of the 1.5
kW solar PV array (averaged over 30 years), even in the Seattle area which
has the worst solar energy in the continental U.S., it works out to about
370 kWh/year, or about 70 times more efficient than a gas engine car.

But if you remove the solar PV from the car and put it on the roof of your
house, we get an efficiency of 100 times better than current gas cars: that
is, we use only 1% of our current energy use.

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 5:08 AM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 9 Dec 2018 at 3:30, paul dove via EV wrote:
>
> >   (Eight hours of charging TeslaTMs Model 3 from a wall socket will give
> > you your expected 200-plus miles of range.) Someone's math is off. You
> > can only get 1KW/h from a wall socket. Maybe 30 miles in 8 hours.
> >
>
> This statement isn't quite accurate.
>
> First, there's no such unit as "KW/h."  That has to be a typo.  It's like
> saying "horsepower per minute."
>
> KWh doesn't work, either.  The unit you're looking for is kW -- kilowatts.
>
> Second, it all depends on what kind of "wall socket" it is.  Behind my
> range
> on the wall is a receptacle that will deliver 9.6kW (at the NEC required
> 80%
> demand factor) for as long as you wish.  Allowing for 90% charging
> efficiency, that would charge a Tesla 50kWh battery to 80% SOC in 5 hours
> and 48 minutes.
>
> Third, you're a little low even for a regular 20 amp branch-circuit
> receptacle.  As long as it's a 20 amp rated receptacle, it can deliver up
> to
> 80% of the circuit's rated capacity -- 1.92kW -- for an indefinite
> period.
> Even a 15 amp receptacle can give you up to 1.44kW continuously.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof option> too small a surface

[Larry Gales via EV]

Why has no one mentioned the obvious: the Stella Lux and Stella Vie which
achieve practical solar power because they are extremely lightweight and
sport a 1.2 to 1.5 solar PV. The Dutch team that has produced these street
legal vehicles (4-5 passengers, top speed of 77 mph) is also working on a
production model named "LightYear"

On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

>   (Eight hours of charging Tesla’s Model 3 from a wall socket will
> give you your expected 200-plus miles of range.)
> Someone's math is off. You can only get 1KW/h from a wall socket. Maybe 30
> miles in 8 hours.
>
> On Saturday, December 8, 2018, 8:05:15 PM CST, brucedp5 via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> https://qz.com/1482588/why-teslas-dont-and-cant-have-solar-roofs/
> Why Teslas don’t—and can’t—have solar roofs
> December 3, 2018  Kabir Chibber
>
> [images
> https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RTX1A0WZ.jpg
> The only solar-powered cars that work
>
> https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RTS1WEN8.jpg
> The Sono prototype  / REUTERS/Andreas Gebert
> ]
>
> It’s a pretty intuitive question. “Why don’t electric cars have solar
> roof[s?]” asked one person in the “No Stupid Questions” area of Reddit.
> “Wouldn’t it make sense to have a self sustaining charging capabilities.”
> There are similar questions on Quora and elsewhere.
>
> Teslas and other cars run off electricity, drawing from an electric-power
> infrastructure that often runs off of dirty fuels. Solar power generates
> lots of electricity for free from the sun. Why don’t electric cars have
> solar roofs to power them for free?
>
> For one thing, the math makes it quite difficult. Elon Musk briefly
> suggested that solar roofs would be an option for the Tesla Model 3, but
> later walked it back and explained why. “Putting solar panels on the car
> itself?” Musk said in July 2017. “Not that helpful, because the actual
> surface of the car is not that much, and cars are often inside. The least
> efficient place to put solar is on the car.” It turns out that he had meant
> a solar roof that unfolds from the trunk and overs the current car hood.
>
> A Tesla rival, the Karma Revero, actually has a solar roof as an option. As
> Wired noted (paywall), modern solar panels are inefficient and convert just
> 15-20% of the energy that reaches them. So that Revero solar roof, having
> received eight hours of pure sunshine, will generate enough power to drive
> 1.5 miles. (Eight hours of charging Tesla’s Model 3 from a wall socket will
> give you your expected 200-plus miles of range.)
>
> On Quora, Chris Harget, a product-marketing manager in the Bay Area,
> summarizes the problems (emphasis added by him):
>
> The top of an electric car has maybe 3–5 square meters of flat space.
>
> Solar panels, even at high noon, usually only produce about 200
> watt-hours per square meter.
>
> The most efficient production electric vehicles today (probably the
> Hyundai Ioniq and the Tesla Mod 3) would only be able to travel 2–4 miles
> on
> that amount of electricity…in an hour. Most people could walk faster.
>
> Financially, the cost of the panels and electronics, R&D and assembly
> would never pay for itself in the life of the vehicle, compared to charging
> from the wall in your garage.
>
> That doesn’t mean no one is trying. There’s a German startup called Sono
> Motors that wants to build cars with solar panels. Toyota last year
> announced that upcoming Prius hybrid cars would come with Panasonic solar
> roofs (paywall).
>
> Still, even as solar panels become more common and more efficient, they
> won’t be on most cars anytime soon.
> [© qz.com]
>
>
> +
>
> https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3067447/vattenfall-begins-rollout-of-wind-powered-ev-chargers-in-norfolk
> Vattenfall begins rollout of wind-powered EV chargers
> 04 December 2018  Vattenfall is set to begin rolling out its first UK
> electric vehicle (EV) chargers in Norfolk this week, after today announcing
> a new partnership with BMM Energy ...
>
> https://www.businessgreen.com/w-images/0e05a981-078a-438e-a16e-cca8813b0f5f/3/InchargeatPyC-580x358.jpg
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Larry Gales via EV]

The key to dealing with climate change is not only to use cleaner energy
sources, but also to greatly reduce the amount of energy we use.  A 75 fold
reduction in energy use for our transportation would be a huge win and a
major game changer for not only climate change but with resource issues.  Also,
solar PV on the car would be a very convenient additional source of energy
especially on long trips.

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 4:17 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:

> Simple answer I use is that 12 full size home panels can fully charge a
> typical EV to the American average 40 miles a day forever.
>
> But it is far mor economical to put those on the roof of your house or
> garage than on the car.
> bob
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 7:13 PM, Larry Gales via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> To look at this further, let us consider the solar energy available in the
>> Seattle area (again, the worst in the continental USA) over the year.  The
>> results, in terms of sun-hours/day are:
>>
>>Jan Feb Mar Apr MayJun Jul  Aug
>> SepOct NovDec
>>
>>   0.92   1.652.88 4.045.476.06   6.23   4.98
>> 3.85
>> 2.09   1.150.74
>>
>>
>>
>> Let us assume that we travel 20,000 miles/year (the US average for a 2-car
>> family) which consume about 28,000 kWh of energy/year, when we convert the
>> fuel consumed to kWh.  Let us assume we travel less in the Winter, at
>> about
>> 40 miles/day (at total of 6000 miles for those 5 colder months):
>>
>>
>>
>> ·During the 5 colder months the PV on the car delivers only 20
>> miles/day, so we need an extra 20 miles/day of energy from the utility.
>> Given
>> that the car gets 20 miles/kWh, then for 5 months we need (5*30*20)/20 =
>> 150 kWh that we need to get from the utility.
>>
>>
>>
>> ·But during the remaining 7 months of the year, we get an average
>> of 71 miles/day from the PV array on the car, but since we only travel an
>> average of 67 miles/day, we don’t need any extra energy.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If we add the embedded energy needed to create the solar PV array, where
>> we
>> assume that a 1.5 kW array produces an average of 1500 * 1.2 kWh/year, and
>> at the standard 3.7 payback years for solar PV that comes to 6,660 kWh.
>> Over
>> a 30 year lifetime that comes to 222 kWh/year + 150 kWh/year or 372
>> kWh/year total, *which is 75 times less* energy than what the average
>> family now consumes, yet we travel the same speeds for the same distance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Although the Stella Lux or Stella Vie are not in production they are
>> street
>> legal (at least in Europe) cars and have been making tours around Europe
>> for over a year.  The team is considering developing a production car,
>> named “Lightyear”, which uses most of the same technology.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 3:34 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what
>> > Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big problem
>> > is need for a variety of uses.
>> >
>> > What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that
>> > works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to
>> > dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day,
>> > and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might be
>> > able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter
>> > two? I doubt it.
>> >
>> > Now, for going out of town, it wouldn't be too hard to make arrangements
>> > to easily pick up a rental. The other case gets harder. You have a lot
>> > of elevation gain, meaning you'll need a pretty hefty battery since
>> > solar isn't going to be anywhere near adequate. That means the car gets
>> > super heavy - like a Tesla - and now the benefits of the Stella are
>> > impossible. This usage, too, could be handled by a rental. But I doubt
>> > most people are willing add two hours to an already long day in order to
>> > use a rental. On top of that, most rental companies don't permit you to
>> > drive on unpaved roads.
>> >
>> > If we, eventually, have autonomous vehicles, perhaps you'll be able to
>> > own a car for your special purpose activities and fetch one for your
>> > daily usage. Then, Stella-like vehicles become a real option, I think.
>> >
>> > Peri
>> >
>

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Larry Gales via EV]

To look at this further, let us consider the solar energy available in the
Seattle area (again, the worst in the continental USA) over the year.  The
results, in terms of sun-hours/day are:

   Jan Feb Mar Apr MayJun Jul  Aug
SepOct NovDec

  0.92   1.652.88 4.045.476.06   6.23   4.983.85
2.09   1.150.74



Let us assume that we travel 20,000 miles/year (the US average for a 2-car
family) which consume about 28,000 kWh of energy/year, when we convert the
fuel consumed to kWh.  Let us assume we travel less in the Winter, at about
40 miles/day (at total of 6000 miles for those 5 colder months):



·During the 5 colder months the PV on the car delivers only 20
miles/day, so we need an extra 20 miles/day of energy from the utility.  Given
that the car gets 20 miles/kWh, then for 5 months we need (5*30*20)/20 =
150 kWh that we need to get from the utility.



·But during the remaining 7 months of the year, we get an average
of 71 miles/day from the PV array on the car, but since we only travel an
average of 67 miles/day, we don’t need any extra energy.





If we add the embedded energy needed to create the solar PV array, where we
assume that a 1.5 kW array produces an average of 1500 * 1.2 kWh/year, and
at the standard 3.7 payback years for solar PV that comes to 6,660 kWh.  Over
a 30 year lifetime that comes to 222 kWh/year + 150 kWh/year or 372
kWh/year total, *which is 75 times less* energy than what the average
family now consumes, yet we travel the same speeds for the same distance.



Although the Stella Lux or Stella Vie are not in production they are street
legal (at least in Europe) cars and have been making tours around Europe
for over a year.  The team is considering developing a production car,
named “Lightyear”, which uses most of the same technology.

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 3:34 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what
> Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big problem
> is need for a variety of uses.
>
> What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that
> works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to
> dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day,
> and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might be
> able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter
> two? I doubt it.
>
> Now, for going out of town, it wouldn't be too hard to make arrangements
> to easily pick up a rental. The other case gets harder. You have a lot
> of elevation gain, meaning you'll need a pretty hefty battery since
> solar isn't going to be anywhere near adequate. That means the car gets
> super heavy - like a Tesla - and now the benefits of the Stella are
> impossible. This usage, too, could be handled by a rental. But I doubt
> most people are willing add two hours to an already long day in order to
> use a rental. On top of that, most rental companies don't permit you to
> drive on unpaved roads.
>
> If we, eventually, have autonomous vehicles, perhaps you'll be able to
> own a car for your special purpose activities and fetch one for your
> daily usage. Then, Stella-like vehicles become a real option, I think.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Lee Hart" 
> Sent: 21-Oct-18 2:56:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
>
> >Larry Gales via EV wrote:
> >>When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
> >>results
> >>from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with the
> >>assumption
> >>that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar car records are
> >>not
> >>actually lying.
> >
> >The problem is that most people assume that EVs must be exactly like
> >ICEs. Typical ICEs today weigh a ton or more, and have the aerodynamics
> >of a brick. All those edgy lines, huge grilles, big fat tires, and
> >rough bottom mean it takes lot of horsepower to drag it down the road.
> >
> >The automakers are building EVs the same way. Big, heavy, poor
> >aerodynamics.
> >
> >But there are other ways to do it. Race cars and airplanes are much
> >lighter, and have aerodynamics based on performance rather than
> >styling. Amory Lovins has been championing the "hypercar" concept for
> >decades. The basic idea is that if you halve the weight, and cut the
> >aerodynamic losses in half, it takes 1/4th as much energy to push it
> >down the road. Yet it can be just as strong an

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[Larry Gales via EV]

When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different results
from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with the assumption
that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar car records are not
actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4 passenger Stella Lux include these:



Length

178 inches

Width

69 inches

Height

44 inches

Weight

826 pounds

Battery Capacity

15 kWh

Motor Efficiency

97 percent

Range on sunny day (Netherlands)

621 miles

Range on sunny day (Australia)

683 miles

Range at night (on battery)

403 miles

Top Speed

77 mph



So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, that
translates to 26.8 miles/kWh.  Let us suppose that is under ideal
conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh.  The solar PV
array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world conditions is
0.75 kW.  In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar
potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun hours.
So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles.  If we usually travel only 40
miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated solar
energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel.  And given that 5
months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel about 60
miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car.  And the 5 passenger Stella
Vie is just as efficient.

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
> The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars
> October 15, 2018  Michael J. Coren
>
> [image
> https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.png
> The Sono Motors Car
> ]
>
> The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost everything
> on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels (once decomposed
> living matter) all derive in some way from the star we call the Sun.
>
> So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?
>
> It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface relative
> to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes that cover
> thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans, even ultra-light
> aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they have in common?
> They’re
> all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar panels
> generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.
>
> For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy equation
> is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar panels on their
> vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The German startup Sono Motors
> is
> adding 330 integrated solar cells on the roof, sides, and rear to give its
> vehicle a 30-km boost out of a 250-km (155-mile) battery range. Meanwhile,
> Dutch startup behind LightyearOne claims its electric car will “charge
> itself.” Although it has yet to unveil a vehicle, potential customers can
> put down deposits for a €119.000 ($157,000) car promising to travel 10,000
> to 20,000 km per year (6,200 to 12,400 miles) on its solar panels alone.
>
> The Sono Motors Car
>
> Will it work? Don’t bet on it, says Jeremy Michalek, a professor of
> mechanical engineering at Carnegie Mellon University and director of its
> Vehicle Electrification Group.
>
> Quartz asked Michalek to estimate how far the best solar panels could
> propel
> a typical electric car on the market. He broke down the math for us.
>
> Michalek says about 1 kilowatt (kW) of solar energy falls on a square meter
> of the Earth’s surface on a clear day. That’s all the solar energy
> available
> to collect. For a company like Sono, which says it can convert about a
> quarter of that energy into electricity (although that’s very optimistic),
> a
> full site of panels might generate roughly 8 kilowatt hours of energy per
> day (a best-case scenario with four square meters of solar panels).
>
> Michalek says that’s enough to drive a car like the comparable Nissan Leaf
> about 25 miles. But there are many reasons (clouds, poor panel positioning,
> dirt), this number will rarely be reached. As for LightyearOne and its
> claims that you’ll never need to charge your car in the future? The odds
> are
> tough. The maximum conversion rate for cheap silicon cells to turn sunlight
> into electricity is just under 33%, and more exotic materials that achieve
> 44% efficiency are far too expensive for mass production. Without a
> revolutionary breakthough in solar panel technology, cars that can recharge
> themselves with the sun alone remain fantastical.
>
> Does that mean putting solar panels on cars is always a bad idea? Maybe
> not.
> A sunny day can tack on enough miles to cover the average US commute. But
> Michalek says that’s an expensive way to extend the car’s range. Anyone
> with
> a charging outlet can get renewable energy from the wall for a lot less.
> Sign up for the Quartz Daily Brief email
> Stay updated about Quartz

Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[Larry Gales via EV]

Actually, a 1200 mile HVDC line looses only about 5% of the energy
transmitted, so it is very efficient.  Now, these lines are expensive,
about $2 million/per mile, or $1.4 billion for a 1200 mile line, and the
longest one I know about is about 1500 miles in South America, so they
can't really transmit electricity around the globe, but they can efficiency
transmit to a large part of a major continent, so they can greatly reduce
the amount of storage needed.

Now batteries (either in EVs or after they have been removed from EVs for
storage), can provide huge amounts of storage for a number of hours or a
few days, but you need something else, e.g., stored H2 to store energy for
weeks or months.

)

-Larry

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 1:15 PM, jim--- via EV  wrote:

>
> Michael Ross said (in part):
> > The grid is a super storage medium. If we were more interconnected
> worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all. You just
> need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
> take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
> out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
>
>
> Unfortunately not practical.  Transmission line losses if nothing else
> would rule it out.  There are other issues as well.
>
>
> Jim
>
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Re: [EVDL] Musings on a practical solar vehicle.

[Larry Gales via EV]

Well, the Stella Lux and Stella Vie appear to be practical solar powered
cars but they are extremely lightweight and highly aerodynamic.

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

>
> I think I've mentioned that an Ultravan from the 60's weights about the
> same as a Nissan Leaf.  Putting the Leaf drive train in the Ultravan would
> be a good retro mod.  With a 3kw solar array it would charge in 10 hours of
> sun.  However it might not be the freeway runner the Leaf is at 22 feet
> long and 8 feet wide although better than any RV.  Some mirror replacement
> and wheel well covering might be needed. Possibly a better way might be a
> VW bus chopped down or even better a purpose built body to put on the VW
> bus pan.  Weighing in at 1500 pounds with a 2kw solar array it would charge
> quickly and might even cruise at 25mph on the array alone on level ground.
> I am trying to avoid building a purpose built vehicle from the ground up.
> Seems a daunting task.  I am currently figuring out a design to put over my
> recumbent trike. 2kw battery 800 watt array.  It is all very scale-able.
> What I learn from the trike will help with future projects.The current
> philosophy is more batteries.  I think efficiency is a better way.
>  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

[Larry Gales via EV]

I certainly concur with your analysis: fuel cells are not a good option for
cars, but large scale energy storage is a much more likely possibility

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:

> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
> to work on HFCVs.
>
> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
> potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
>
> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
>
> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
> workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
> environment and habitat, etc.
>
> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
> scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
> 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
> would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
> production and use.
>
> I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
> needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.
>
> I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
> vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.
>
> BentMIke
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> > Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward
> with
> > hydrogen anyway
> > Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
> >
> > [image
> > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> > electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> > quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600
> >
> > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> > hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all
> > ]
> >
> > For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> > battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
> > the
> > Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
> >
> > Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
> > “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
> > in
> > the technology.
> >
> > Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
> > an
> > energy storage system for vehicles.
> >
> > For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
> > compared to battery-powered vehicles.
> >
> > Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell
> vehicle
> > ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
> > getting
> > its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the
> hydrogen.
> >
> > The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
> > vehicle.
> >
> > The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car.
> You
> > can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car
> > can
> > take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.
> >
> > But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
> > refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.
> >
> > That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
> > when comparing the two technologies.
> >
> > Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
> > Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:
> >
> > “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly
> > by
> > plugging in,”
> >
> > But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
> > technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet):
> >
> > “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the
> > EV
> > (electric vehicle) and t

Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Larry Gales via EV]

Well, the Stella Lux seems to make sense to me

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Alan Arrison via EV 
wrote:

> If you do the math, you will find solar vehicles make no sense, period.
>
> Al
>
>
>
> On 9/27/2017 10:01 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>
>> Maybe you can do it as a hobbyist project.  I don't see it as a viable
>> mass
>> produced commercial product for a long time yet, if ever.
>>
>> It would have to be competitive with current vehicles at initial
>> dealer-lot
>> price, because that's all most buyers see.
>>
>> Also, it can't be too odd-looking.  Anything based on the Stella Lux
>> flunks
>> that one right off.
>>
>> A scant few buyers will/can pay more up front for low running costs, and a
>> few of THEM might accept a weird looking vehicle.  By then you're getting
>> down to a microscopic potential customer base.
>>
>> You're not going to find venture capitalists interested in that kind of
>> risk, and unfortunately we're currently experiencing a severe shortage of
>> Elon Musks.
>>
>> So if you want one, better get to work.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

[Larry Gales via EV]

This thread has providing some useful information about charging, but I am
still left uncertain about the amount of time needed to charge the Chevy
Bolt at a level 3 station.  I am considering getting a Bolt but before I do
I need to have some (average) idea as to how long it will take.  I realize
that will vary with the temperature and initial state of charge, but some
rough average time would be useful.

So, to go from  10% to 80% charge, are we looking at, say, 90 minutes, or 2
hours, or what?

Thanks,

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> Paul,
> Maybe they confused "balanced" and "stiffened"? I don't know as I did
> not read the Tesla driver's experience as there was no link provided.
> As far as I know, the Tesla has ~24V modules (blades) with 6 series
> connected herds of round cells (approx 6-7 dozen in parallel) and the
> BMS only has access to each interconnect point between the cells, so 7
> points in each module.
> I do not know when the BMS is balancing, so if this only happens during
> charging then I can see that a continuous cycle of 1/2 hour fast charges
> may not provide enough balancing time to keep all cells properly
> balanced, while a slow overnight charge may provide ample time and thus
> make all cells behave more in line so there are fewer outliers, which
> might resemble a stiffer pack (but it not actually stiffer as the
> operation of the  cells is not affected, so they sag exactly as much as
> before the balancing - only with less variation between cells!
>
> The Leaf's BMS is powered 24/7 so it balances at all times, which is
> also needed since the balancing current is extremely low (10mA)
> So for the Leaf it makes no difference if you do a fast or slow charge,
> the BMS has exactly as much time to balance (24 hours each day).
>
> Hope this clarifies,
> Cor.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via
> EV
> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 4:14 AM
> To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3
> charger
>
> I don't know what stiffen the pack means. Sounds made up.
>
> I did watch my car charge on a chademo charger though. I had 15 miles
> range showing when it started. It said 27 minutes to charge. It started
> at 100 amps. After about 8 minutes I was up to a 60% charge and it was
> charging at 48 amps. It had steadily dropped as it charger. Not sure why
> they do this but I suppose they don't want to overheat the cells.
>
> I don't believe it's necessary based on my testing of LiFePO4 but maybe
> these other chemistries heat more rapidly. At any rate chademo doesn't
> use consistent power to charge if they did it would be much faster. I
> don't know if ccs does the same thing.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On May 21, 2017, at 4:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > When people talk of performance EVs, they usually forget about
> > performance charging.
> > I have always had a keen interest in quick charging even in the old
> > (90's) days of PbSO4. I had 6 chargers on-board with their output tied
> in parallel.
> > With all of them on I could push 22+kW into my pack (I had the fore
> > runner of a l3 charging ability).
> >
> > GM bullied Euro automakers into going their way away from using
> > CHAdeMO to using ccs combo l3 DC.
> > GM's Bolt as a maximum l3 charging ability of 80kW. Where most public
> > l2 EVSE only offer 50kW.
> > When you read GM's pages, they spec a 80kW time.
> >
> > I suggest you read
> >
> > http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109714_more-details-on-fast-charg
> > ing-rate-in-2017-chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car
> >
> > and it's source
> >
> > https://bro05.blogspot.ca/2017/03/fast-charging-experiences-with-bolt.
> > html
> >
> > The charging rates are broken down to what a Bolt driver can expect
> > from a public 50kW l3 ccs EVSE.
> >
> > If the ambient temps are optimal, the 0 to 50% SOC will be the highest
>
> > charging rate.
> > The 50% to 80%SOC will progressively taper slower, until at the 80%
> > most eVgo L3 EVSE will shut off.
> > Other ccs combo EVSE will allow you to charge at a slow rate to 100%,
> > but really at 80%SOC you really ought to move out of the l3 EVSE spot
> > and to a
> > l2 EVSE spot if you feel you really need to charge to 100%SOC.
> >
> > With today's larger amount of public L3 EVSE available, the fastest
> > method is to only charge to 80%, unplug and hit the highway to the
> > next L3, charge to 80% and repeat (never charging to 100% unless you
> > had to because of the large EVSE gap). After being on the road with
> > multiple l3 charges, a slower overnight charge while you sleep will
> help balance/stiffen your pack.
> >
> > Tesla drivers have shown, the best method of re-conditioning your pack
>
> > after multiple l3 charging sessions (in their case using
> > superchargers), was to come home near 10%SOC and l2 charge overnight.
> > They reported it took a long time,

[EVDL] Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

[Larry Gales via EV]

Does anyone know the realistic charging time for the Bolt using a level 3
charger?  Say, the time to 80% charge and the time to 100% charge?  I have
heard that the charging rate for the Bolt is rather slow but I have not
heard any details.

Thanks,

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[EVDL] What is the expected lifetime of used electric car batteries in a battery farm?

[Larry Gales via EV]

Consider the use of used electric car Lithium batteries for electric
storage in a battery farm.  Suppose the batteries are removed from the car
after losing 20-30% of their range and moved to a climate controlled, shock
and vibration free environment and where the rate of charging/discharging
is kept to a low level, say 10 kW.  Does anyone know what is the expected
lifetime of those batteries in that environment?  Does the battery become
erratic below a certain level?

Thanks,

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[EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Larry Gales via EV]

Most scenarios assume that Lithium batteries for EVs should be replaced
when they degrade to 70-80% of their initial capacities, after which they
might serve as storage batteries for the grid, or a house.  Does anyone
know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is no longer
useful, and how long will that take?   For example, can the capacity shrink
down to 15% and still provide useful power, and how long would that take?



Thanks, Larry

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Re: [EVDL] Off-grid solar house and electric car charging

[Larry Gales via EV]

Thanks, I was somewhat aware of the increased use of copper, but not to the
extent that you specify, so it looks like AC is the way to go, even for
off-grid solar.

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 9:06 AM, robert winfield via EV 
wrote:

> my inverter (Omnion 2200) has 2 legs. +/- 186v DC (~370v) small wires.,
> inverted to 110v AC about ~8 amps with a 20 amp circuit breaker (made back
> around 1995 - 1997 or so)
>
>   From: Robert Bruninga via EV 
>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>  Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 10:39 AM
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Off-grid solar house and electric car charging
>
> > If you build an off-grid solar house and use it for both your house
> > and charging your electric car, are there any disadvantages for using
> > DC current (household appliances can all be converted to DC) and
> > avoiding AC since you are off the grid?  You avoid the cost,
> > maintenance, and (slight) inefficiency of inverters, but are there
> > significant disadvantages to this approach?
>
> A big question is what voltage.  Home solar typically uses high voltage
> 300 to 600 VDC so that currents are less and smaller copper wire can be
> used (think #12 standard wire).
>
> Remote, Off -grid DC systems typically operate no higher than 48 volts.
> Right there is a 10 to 1 drop in voltage so a 100 to 1 increase in cable
> losses.  Now think big battery cables everywhere and a huge investment in
> copper.
>
> Some people then drop to 12v to use many common 12 camping accessories to
> live by.  That then further multiplies wire losses by another eight to one
> factor, or almost 800 times more losses for the same wire.
>
> So In most cases, it is far, far easier to accept the 5% Inverter lossess
> and keep your house at the 120 VAC standard so you can use all existing
> home wiring techniques and all existing home appliances and all existing
> electrical things in the home than to deal with ALL specialized much more
> expensive DC appliances and HUGELY expensive specialized wiring.
>
> Bob
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[EVDL] Off-grid solar house and electric car charging

[Larry Gales via EV]

If you build an off-grid solar house and use it for both your house and
charging your electric car, are there any disadvantages for using DC
current (household appliances can all be converted to DC) and avoiding AC
since you are off the grid?  You avoid the cost, maintenance, and (slight)
inefficiency of inverters, but are there significant disadvantages to this
approach?

Thanks,

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy carbon) battery paper

[Larry Gales via EV]

First, the CO2 produced by transportation is about 30%, not 14%, so it is a
very significant factor.

2nd, a 200+ mile vehicle should be fully sufficient as your only car.  For
98-99% of all your trips, the EV is more convenient, as you can wake up
every morning with a fully charged car with virtually no effort.  And for a
500 mile trip the difference is this:  in a gas car, most people would
normally make at least TWO 30 minute stops for food, or bathroom, or gas,
or rest.  For the 200+ mile EV, you would make THREE such stops, combining
30 minute charging (to 80% full) with food/bathroom/rest.

So for 1-2% of your trips, the EV would be somewhat less convenient, but
for 98-99% the EV would be more convenient.  And 98-99% is better than 1-2%.


On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 12:34 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

>  The need for zero emission vehicles has been around for significantly
> longer than efforts to reduce CO2 emissions.
> For many parts of the country (and world), local levels of air pollution
> have tremendous impacts on human health and the environment.
> If you believe that we can solve the CO2 problem by eliminating coal, and
> you think that it can be done in a reasonable amount of time, there still
> remains a urgent need for zero and near-zero emitting vehicles.
>
> - Mark
> Sent from AltaMail
>
>
>  From: dovepa via EV  To: Peri Hartman via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending
> her LiO2 (fluffy carbon) battery paper Date: 5/13/16, 6:49 PM
>
>
>
> I don't see a need to eliminate the internal combustion engine. Most of
> the CO2 comes from burning coal. According to the EPA only 14% comes from
> transportation. All forms of transportation together road, rail, air and
> marine.
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>  Original message From: Peri Hartman via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 5/13/16  4:13 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Mike Beem <
> beemik...@gmail.com>, EVDL Administrator , Electric
> Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN:
> Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy
>   carbon) battery paper
> The range problem definitely does exist.  How are you going to get rid
> of ICE vehicles for long range travel if you can only go 100 miles or so
> per charge?  Even 200 miles.
>
> This has nothing to do with the vehicle you might use for everyday
> commuting and errands.  Yes, 100 miles is almost always plenty for that.
>   And, yes, you can rent something if you want to go long range.
>
> But we're talking about getting ICE vehicles off the road.  That long
> range vehicle needs to go 300-400 miles on a charge to be practical.
> Some have to be built and there needs to be high wattage charging
> stations along the interstates and major highways.  And, another factor,
> if only a small percentage are built, economy of scale won't work and
> they will be quite expensive.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mike Beem via EV" 
> To: "EVDL Administrator" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> Sent: 13-May-16 2:06:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy
> carbon) battery paper
>
> >>  They are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
> >
> >>Most of us on the EVDL have been saying this for years -- that 100
> >>miles of
> >range is plenty for almost anyone.
> >
> >Well stated, both of you! I definitely am ready for that 100 mile
> >range,
> >having over the years never had more than my current 40 mile range
> >pack.
> >However, it still does carry me for more than 95% of the miles I drive
> >most
> >months. I do have a 3/4 ton diesel pick up truck for pulling my dump
> >trailer, and hauling any any loads too heavy, large or messy for the EV
> >Escort, but with its roof rack I have carried ladders, lumber etc. for
> >much
> >of what I do; and the truck generally gets driven less than 500 mile
> >per
> >year, so its contribution to ICE pollution is as minimal as I can make
> >it.
> >Having now sold off or given away all of my remaining EV projects, I
> >know
> >that I am probably driving my last home made EV, but it still has 5 1/2
> >years to go to finish my experiment=can I drive a conversion EV on one
> >lithium pack with a total investment of $1 for 10 years? (not
> >including
> >tires or brakes).
> >Time will tell, but so far, I have seen no degradation in range or
> >power.
> >Michael B
> >
> >On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 1:45 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
> >ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >
> >>  On 13 May 2016 at 6:31, dovepa via EV wrote:
> >>
> >>  > They are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
> >>
> >>  Most of us on the EVDL have been saying this for years -- that 100
> >>miles of
> >>  range is plenty for almost anyone.
> >>
> >>  It's true, but outside of EV hobbyists, hardly anyone believes it.
> >>The
> >>  public perception is that they need range close to what they get on a
> >>  tankful of gasoline now.
> >>
> >>  We know that "ran

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy carbon) battery paper

[Larry Gales via EV]

Yes, I believe that transportation is responsible for about 30% of the
greenhouse gas emissions, and the energy to support buildings and houses
about 40%

On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> Did you see the comments on the parallel module idea?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of dovepa via EV
> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 6:54 PM
> To: EVDL Administrator via EV
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy
> carbon) battery paper
>
> Seems to me there would be some technical difficulties to overcome as
> well. You just posted an article about a college professor and his students
> doing this. Only they used removable nodules in parallel which solves many
> of the issues.
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>  Original message From: EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 5/13/16  8:37 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric
> Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN:
> Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy
> carbon) battery paper
> Doing some dreaming here: wouldn't it be cool if you could buy the range
> you
> needed when you needed it?  It'd be kind of like buying $5 worth of gas, or
> filling the tank.
>
> Suppose EVs had fully interchangeable, standardized, leased battery modules
> that could be swapped out in minutes.  When you wanted to take a trip,
> you'd
> go to a swapping station and swap your (possibly flat) battery of, say, 10
> modules (100 miles range) for a fully-charged 30 module battery (300 miles
> range).  You'd get billed more for it, of course.
>
> After your trip, you'd returnk to the swapping station and exchange your
> 30-
> module battery for another 10-module one.  You'd go back to your 100 mile
> range, which would be plenty for your daily commute.
>
> I know all the potential pitfalls and downsides of battery exchange and
> leasing, but still ... having (and paying for) exactly the range you need
> would be really nice, don't you think?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Larry Gales via EV]

In the fairly near future I wonder if crash worthiness will be that
important.  Self driving cars (or ones that are close to self driving) will
mainly be achieved through sensors and electronics, neither of which should
add much mass to the car. So you achieve safety, not through armor, but
through avoiding accidents.

Of course that requires that nearly all cars be self driving

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> Please look at the thickness of the doors, the specifications & that the
> car passed Dutch safety standards.  This is a real vehicle which though
> coming in second to the Japanese they won on points for comfort & space
> inside their vehicle.  If you look across the back seats you will see a
> roll cage and a strong carbon fiber bulkhead.  Lawrence Rhodes URL below
>
>
>
> http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Peri Hartman 
> To: Lawrence Rhodes ; "ev@lists.evdl.org" <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 7:14 AM
> Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.
>
> My statement and questions were more general.  I was curious about
> actually being able to build any 4 passenger (even 2 passenger) EV at
> 1000 pounds, not particularly a solar one.  As David pointed out, to
> make a legally marketable EV it has to meet a lot of safety requirements
> and have at least some creature comforts, too.  That provides, indeed, a
> challenge to build something so light.
>
> Peri
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
> To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev@lists.evdl.org"
> 
> Sent: 31-Jan-16 1:30:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.
>
> >  Peri.  You didn't read the article.   Stella Lux used off the shelf
> >specially encapsulated cells from Sunpower.  Many of the components are
> >off the shelf.  Since the vehicle has a small pack it is much cheaper
> >to build. Much quicker to charge and it only takes 10 hours to charge
> >on solar.  95% of the time a car is sitting.  With solar panels it can
> >sit in the sun. The weight of the solar panels is negligible.  Lots of
> >great things happen when you get light.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Subject: Re: Battery size for a 40 ton 18 wheel truck with a 200+ mile range

[Larry Gales via EV]

Yes, thank you, as that pretty well confirms it.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> Steve,
> The 300A at 300V when cruising 50 MPH is consistent with the
> 15kW that I found as a minimum for my light truck cruising,
> multiplied by 6 (the ratio between the ICE versions MPG rating)
> so a minimum cruising power of 90kW and a more real-world
> usage of 150 to 200kW on the freeway doing 65mph for 3 hours
> comes down to the same numbers that we saw earlier, between
> 500 - 600kWh for 200 miles range.
>
> Thanks for that data!
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Steve Clunn via
> EV
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 8:26 AM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: [EVDL] Subject: Re: Battery size for a 40 ton 18 wheel truck
> with a 200+ mile range
>
> Hi all I've been keeping up with the list on my phone but can't use it
> to
> reply ( .
> My part of this project was to try to make what the customer though was
> the
> way to do this,  work. He picked a 2,600 lb 300hp sepex motor , because
> it
> weighed as much as the diesel engine . We started and ended with a 2k
> zilla
> hooked to the armature and a bank of relays and resistors to controller
> the
> field ( field rated at 300v 6 amp ) . Things seemed to be working pretty
> well until   the Zilla erred he decided to switch to a contactor
> controller
> using heating elements and contactors . He felt 3 speeds would be enough
> and I tried to explain the move steps we had the less violent the change
> in
> speed would be between each step , but what did I know. First ride with
> this set up   was quite entertaining nothing broke but the shift from
> medium to hi was specular . Next came a 7 step set with 40 or so hot
> water
> 2400 w heating elements in series ,parallel , all inside pipe with water
> .
> test run looked like a steam engine simi . It was some what more
> controllable but not really real world drivable. so , back to the zilla
>
> It was hard to get real numbers as to power used with all the monkey
> play
> going on , I seem to remember 50 mph pulling 300 amps at 300v while
> cruising . The info in on one of the videos , .  I would have liked to
> have
> used 2  net gain 11"  seems like they would handled the 300 amps .
>
> The video is on our web site and Youtube
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_mmWE3dbgU
>
> Steve Clunn
> Merging the best of the past with
> the best of the future.
> www.Greenshedconversions.com
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Re: [EVDL] Battery size for a 40 ton 18 wheel truck with a 200+ mile range

[Larry Gales via EV]

Do you happen to have Steve Clunn's email address?

Thank you,

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 2:24 PM, Bruce Lawton via EV 
wrote:

> You might want to compare notes with Steve Clunn. He just converted a semi
> last year and probably has real world numbers you could consider.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:14:07 -0800
> > From: Larry Gales via EV 
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ,SEVA
> >
> > Subject: [EVDL] Battery size for a 40 ton 18 wheel truck with a 200+
> >milerange
> > Message-ID:
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > I'm trying to determine the battery size for an 18 wheel (40 ton) truck
> > with a 200+ mile range.  There is a 20 ton bus (see:
> > http://www.byd.com/na/auto/40feet.html  )  with a range of >155 miles
> and a
> > battery size of 324 kWh.  So, for 210 miles that would be about 463 kWh.
> >
> > According to a graph (figure 7) in:
> >
> >
> http://www.goodyeartrucktires.com/pdf/resources/service-manual/Retread_S9_V.pdf
> > the MPG declines from 5 to about 4.2 when the weight goes from 20 tons to
> > 40 tons, so I would estimate that the truck would need about a 550 kWh
> > battery.
> >
> > Does that sound reasonable, or am I missing something?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > --
> > Larry Gales
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[EVDL] Battery size for a 40 ton 18 wheel truck with a 200+ mile range

[Larry Gales via EV]

I'm trying to determine the battery size for an 18 wheel (40 ton) truck
with a 200+ mile range.  There is a 20 ton bus (see:
http://www.byd.com/na/auto/40feet.html  )  with a range of >155 miles and a
battery size of 324 kWh.  So, for 210 miles that would be about 463 kWh.

According to a graph (figure 7) in:

http://www.goodyeartrucktires.com/pdf/resources/service-manual/Retread_S9_V.pdf
the MPG declines from 5 to about 4.2 when the weight goes from 20 tons to
40 tons, so I would estimate that the truck would need about a 550 kWh
battery.

Does that sound reasonable, or am I missing something?

Thanks,


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: NYPD busting & seizing escooters & ebicycles

[Larry Gales via EV]

But are you talking about eBike RIDERS or eBike COURIERS?  Yes, the eBike
delivery people ride like  maniacs because they have a strong economic
incentive to drive as fast as possible, but all eBike  riders (who can
contribute to lower traffic congestion, parking, and pollution),  should
not suffer because of these few.

Granted, all bike riders should learn to obey the laws, but this should be
much easier to do in an eBike, because you have no strong incentive to
maintain your momentum: it is just as easy to go uphill in an eBike, as on
the level.

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV 
wrote:

> While the law may be dumb and the facts cited wrong. The main negative
> thing
> about these electric scooters and electric bikes is that the riders TOTALLY
> ignore any law, they are actually quite dangereous. Even the average pedal
> bike
> rider ignores all the traffic laws. The name of the delivery game is how
> fast
> you can make your delivery period, not how fast you can do it and still
> respect
> the traffic rules.
>
> If the ebike riders would stop when they are supposed to, ride with the
> traffic,
> stay on the road, not the sidewalk etc, I'm sure they would be supported.
> But
> they don't obey the laws.
>
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ 85719
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
> Administrator
> via EV
> > Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 1:25 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: NYPD busting & seizing escooters & ebicycles
> >
> > Dumb, dumb law.  NYC needs low-impact 2-wheel transportation as much as
> any
> other
> > large city.
> >
> > "We try to confiscate them as soon as we see them" is the sort of action
> that
> can give the
> > law a bad name.  It sounds too much like the abuse of asset forfeiture
> laws
> that's been in
> > the news for the last few years.
> >
> > These laws need to be modernized, pronto.  At the same time, bike riders
> need
> to obey the
> > traffic laws, whether their bikes have motors or not.
> >
> > Here in Ohio, no registration is required for e-bikes under 750 Watts.
> The
> law does require
> > either a driver's license or a "probationary motorized bicycle license"
> which
> you can get at
> > age 14 by passing a test.
> >
> > Not that I'd ever condone breaking the law, but today there's no reason
> that
> an e-bike can't
> > look exactly like an unpowered bike.  A modern hub motor can be
> surprisingly
> > inconspicuous.  Lithium batteries and wiring can be packaged inside the
> frame
> tubes.
> >
> > In fact powered bikes can be so subtle that for several years now the
> Tour de
> France has
> > been plagued by rumors of "doped bikes" or "mechanical doping."
> >
> > http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/fresh-motorised-doping-
> > claims-ryder-hesjedals-bike-moves-134745
> >
> > http://v.gd/FjUNaD
> >
> > Anyone trying to ride electrically "under the radar" would need to use
> plenty
> of discretion,
> > which I hope would prevent the kind of shenanigans that seem be be
> raising a
> few gripes in
> > NYC.
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EVDL Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
> Information:
> > http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = =
> = = =
> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send
> a private
> > message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
> > ___
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>
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[EVDL] How to radically reduce energy using different types of EVs

[Larry Gales via EV]

​Last week ​
I gave a talk at SEVA
​(Seattle Electric Vehicle Association)​
about how a combination of very light (velomobiles) and normal size
electric cars could provide a personal transportation system very similar
to our current automobile system in usage and capabilities, and yet would
reduce the energy required by a factor of 200 while also reducing costs,
noise, pollution, congestion, and parking problems.

Here is a link to the full text of that presentation, along with references
that anyone can follow and check. You can find the article at:

http://staff.washington.edu/larryg/Energy/velomobile.docx

​and the accompanying PPT presentation is at​:

http://staff.washington.edu/larryg/Energy/EVefficiency.pptx


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[EVDL] Growth, Progress, and the Role of Electric Vehicles

[Larry Gales via EV]

Yesterday I gave a talk at SEVA about how a combination of very light
(velomobiles) and normal size electric cars could provide a personal
transportation system very similar to our current automobile system in
usage and capabilities, and yet would reduce the energy required by a
factor of 200 while also reducing costs, noise, pollution, congestion, and
parking problems.

Here is a link to the full text of that presentation, along with references
that anyone can follow and check. You can find the article at:

http://staff.washington.edu/larryg/Energy/velomobile.docx

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Re: [EVDL] Battery Swap - the stupid idea that wont die...

[Larry Gales via EV]

Well, the market capitalization of Tesla is 24 Billion, so I would consider
that pretty major.  It is 40% of General Motors market cap.

On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Michael Ross 
wrote:

> Tesla is hardly a major manufacturer, but others qualify.  They do think
> big though.  Maybe someday.
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Larry Gales via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> For both leasing and battery swap to be practical, you don't need to have
>> all manufacturers adhere to a common standard (though that would be nice),
>> but a major manufacturer such as Tesla could have their on swap stations
>> that serve their own type of vehicles.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 5:44 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>>
>> > As I see it, the model for successful battery exchange in EVs is the
>> lowly
>> > flashlight (torch).  The cells come in 4 basic sizes, with two of these
>> > most
>> > commonly used (AA and D).  Effectively, you have 2 or maybe 4 tiers of
>> > energy content and power capacity; then, within each tier, you use more
>> > cells to get more of both.
>> >
>> > To make battery exchange work with EVs, you'd have to get all the EV
>> > manufacturers to agree on one or two standard module sizes.  They'd need
>> > standardized connections that mate as the battery is installed, just as
>> > flashlight battery connections do.  You'd have different capacities
>> > (through
>> > different chemistries) in a given module size, and also vary the
>> capacity
>> > by
>> > the number of modules the EV used.
>> >
>> > For affordability and convenience, you'd have to fully automate the
>> > exchange
>> > process.  The driver would pull into the exchange bay, pay the operator,
>> > wait a couple of minutes, and drive out with a freshly charged battery.
>> > Most likely the modules would have to attach from the bottom, with
>> > hydraulic
>> > lifts and conveyors doing the work.  You could have one pit to remove
>> the
>> > spent battery, and another to raise a fresh one into place. The EV
>> would be
>> > moved from one pit to the next on tracks.  You should be able to
>> exchange
>> > an
>> > EV's battery even faster than a gas pump can fill an ICEV's tank.
>> >
>> > This model might have worked IF all the EV manufacturers could have
>> agreed
>> > on it from the start.  But making that happen would have been a huge
>> > challenge, and now it's just about impossible.  Then, building all the
>> > exchange stations would require a stupendous investment.
>> >
>> > All this is pretty daunting.  Just ask Shai Agassi.
>> >
>> > So, I wouldn't say that battery exchange is a stupid idea, but I'm
>> afraid
>> > it's not a very practical one.
>> >
>> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> > EVDL Administrator
>> >
>> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> > EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>> > reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>> > email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
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>> -- next part --
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
> Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
>
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
>
>
>


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Re: [EVDL] Battery Swap - the stupid idea that wont die...

[Larry Gales via EV]

For both leasing and battery swap to be practical, you don't need to have
all manufacturers adhere to a common standard (though that would be nice),
but a major manufacturer such as Tesla could have their on swap stations
that serve their own type of vehicles.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 5:44 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> As I see it, the model for successful battery exchange in EVs is the lowly
> flashlight (torch).  The cells come in 4 basic sizes, with two of these
> most
> commonly used (AA and D).  Effectively, you have 2 or maybe 4 tiers of
> energy content and power capacity; then, within each tier, you use more
> cells to get more of both.
>
> To make battery exchange work with EVs, you'd have to get all the EV
> manufacturers to agree on one or two standard module sizes.  They'd need
> standardized connections that mate as the battery is installed, just as
> flashlight battery connections do.  You'd have different capacities
> (through
> different chemistries) in a given module size, and also vary the capacity
> by
> the number of modules the EV used.
>
> For affordability and convenience, you'd have to fully automate the
> exchange
> process.  The driver would pull into the exchange bay, pay the operator,
> wait a couple of minutes, and drive out with a freshly charged battery.
> Most likely the modules would have to attach from the bottom, with
> hydraulic
> lifts and conveyors doing the work.  You could have one pit to remove the
> spent battery, and another to raise a fresh one into place. The EV would be
> moved from one pit to the next on tracks.  You should be able to exchange
> an
> EV's battery even faster than a gas pump can fill an ICEV's tank.
>
> This model might have worked IF all the EV manufacturers could have agreed
> on it from the start.  But making that happen would have been a huge
> challenge, and now it's just about impossible.  Then, building all the
> exchange stations would require a stupendous investment.
>
> All this is pretty daunting.  Just ask Shai Agassi.
>
> So, I wouldn't say that battery exchange is a stupid idea, but I'm afraid
> it's not a very practical one.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Battery Swap - the stupid idea that wont die...

[Larry Gales via EV]

Actually, I have thought that battery swapping might make sense if you
simply lease the use of a battery, rather than own it.  As long as the
batteries owned by a company remain within spec, say 90%, then it does not
matter what battery you have.  You simply can forget about the battery, and
on those occasions where you need 2 minute full recharge, you can have it.
This would be particularity useful for long haul truck that can't afford 30
minute stops every 100 miles

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:

> That feature was designed in by foresight, because it could be.  I don't
> think EM ever had it in mind as a broadly useful function.  I have heard
> him pooh pooh it before.  The CA legislature forced the issue.  If they had
> done right they would have simply made Tesla eligible since they were going
> to offer the credits anyway.
>
> OR maybe they were hoping no one would actually take them up on it except
> maybe the H2 folks?
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I always wondered why someone as smart as Tesla would stoop to the
> > stupidest idea ever (battery swapping) for highway EV’s.  Surely they
> > understood EV’s enough to know that EV’s generally charge while parked,
> not
> > while in use.  But then Superchargers make it possible for distant
> > convenient travel…
> >
> >
> >
> > So how could Tesla be so dumb to invest in “battery swap”…
> >
> >
> >
> > The answer, is smarter than we thought…
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1097214_tesla-battery-swapping-useful-service-or-minimal-effort-for-extra-income
> >
> >
> >
> > It looks like all they had to do was demonstrate ONE working battery-swap
> > station and then they got full extra credit for the California State
> > requirement for full-range-replenishment in under 10 minutes.  They met
> > that goal (one station) and then collected $66,000,000 in EV credits!
> >
> >
> >
> > Not a bad return on investment in a  side-show demo of stupid (but
> > committee mandated) technology.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now if the public would just forget about “battery swap” as a crib for
> > gas=pump dependency for anything more than Forkllifts and other unique
> 24/7
> > daily operations, we can get on with EVs and fast charging.We don’t
> > need any more investor money spent down this rat hole..
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob, WB4APR
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> 
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 576-0824  Google
> Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
>
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] Battery Swap - the stupid idea that wont die...

[Larry Gales via EV]

Actually, I have thought that battery swapping might make sense if you
simply lease the use of a battery, rather than own it.  As long as the
batteries owned by a company remain within spec, say 90%, then it does not
matter what battery you have.  You simply can forget about the battery, and
on those occasions where you need 2 minute full recharge, you can have it.
This would be particularity useful for long haul truck that can't afford 30
minute stops every 100 miles

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> I always wondered why someone as smart as Tesla would stoop to the
> stupidest idea ever (battery swapping) for highway EV’s.  Surely they
> understood EV’s enough to know that EV’s generally charge while parked, not
> while in use.  But then Superchargers make it possible for distant
> convenient travel…
>
>
>
> So how could Tesla be so dumb to invest in “battery swap”…
>
>
>
> The answer, is smarter than we thought…
>
>
>
>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1097214_tesla-battery-swapping-useful-service-or-minimal-effort-for-extra-income
>
>
>
> It looks like all they had to do was demonstrate ONE working battery-swap
> station and then they got full extra credit for the California State
> requirement for full-range-replenishment in under 10 minutes.  They met
> that goal (one station) and then collected $66,000,000 in EV credits!
>
>
>
> Not a bad return on investment in a  side-show demo of stupid (but
> committee mandated) technology.
>
>
>
> Now if the public would just forget about “battery swap” as a crib for
> gas=pump dependency for anything more than Forkllifts and other unique 24/7
> daily operations, we can get on with EVs and fast charging.We don’t
> need any more investor money spent down this rat hole..
>
>
>
> Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

[Larry Gales via EV]

The only way that I see using batteries to operate your house and EV off
the grid is if you build your house according to the European Passive House
standard (see

  http://www.passivehouse-international.org/index.php?page_id=76).

This standard cuts the amount of energy for heating and cooling by 90%, and
the total amount of energy for the house by 75-80%. Given that this
construction adds only 5-7% to the initial price of the house, and tens of
thousands have been built in Europe, I am always surprised to find that
this technology is almost unknown in the US.

However, even with this technology, I suspect that you would need another
source of energy in the Winter.  There now exist Stirling engine generators
that you can buy, and Stirling engines can run on any heat source, from
sunlight to wood, etc.  So there might be enough manufactured and biomass
waste (wood, dried leaves) to fill in the energy when it is needed.

Larry Gales

On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 7:40 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Yes, for that cost I'd agree. But that option was off the table for the OP
> (who has now reconsidered). If you are excluding the grid, storage may have
> more value than more generation capacity.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 23, 2014, at 10:29 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >> If you are taking yourself off grid, not only do the batteries
> >> produce value, but may even be essential.
> >
> > Sure, but at 10,000 times more expensive than using the grid?
> >
> > Of course you need maybe 4 car batteries to keep your refrigerator and
> > lights on during an overnight power outage, but it is crazy to throw any
> > more money away trying to store up to maybe 60 kWh per day in batteries
> > (costing say $12,000) when you can store it in the grid for a few dollars
> > rent a month.
> >
> > Bob.
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2014, at 6:48 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> >>> A 20-year T-bill right now is only paying about 2.5%...
> >>> Even if it takes 20 years to pay off the battery system...
> >>
> >> Batteries are not a source of energy.  They produce nothing.  Solar
> >> panels do.  Far better to spend X dollars available for more solar
> >> panels which pay off themselves in about 3 years and use the nearly
> >> free storage in the grid.
> >>
> >> Self-storage (if you have access to the grid) consumes $2 out of every
> >> $3 invested in Solar with zero benefit other than about 4 hours of
> >> backup electricity a year (around here with a 99.96% reliable grid).
> >> That's spending several thousands of dollars for about 60 cents worth
> >> of electricity.
> >>
> >> If you don't have the grid, then sure, on-site storage is required.
> >>
> >> Oh, my zero-usage electric  bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
> >> month, or $100 a year.  That is renting a 10,000 kWh storage system
> >> (the grid).  Or about 100 kWh per dollar.  Compare that with the 0.01
> >> kWh per dollar for batteries.
> >>
> >> A 10,000 times better deal if there ever was one.
> >>
> >> Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Heating system

[Larry Gales via EV]

Some time ago I did some calculations showing that if you used gasoline for
heating an EV for all the heating you do for the cabin and the batteries,
you would only consume 7-8 gallons of fuel per year.  But if you only used
it when needed, such as for long trips where you need maximum range for
your EV, you would only consume about one gallon per year, an absolutely
trivial amount.
So I think heating with fuel should be a standard feature for electric cars.

-- Larry Gales

On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Jan Steinman via EV 
wrote:

> Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide
> cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel!
>
> I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among
> boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel
> fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan
> to run through my Vanagon's heater core.
>
> Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a "high transformity fuel,"
> meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why
> waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour
> uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of
> diesel will last me all winter.
>
> Anyway, just a thought...
>
> Jan
>
> > From: Al via EV 
> >
> > It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV.
>
>  When money becomes the deciding factor in food marketing, some very
> bad things can happen. I keep thinking about how during the famine in
> Ireland, the country’s grain was sold in the higher English commodity
> markets to pay rents to absentee landlords while the Irish people starved.
> Now that’s what I call real price discovery. -- Gene Logsdon
>  Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 
>
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Re: [EVDL] Electric bike information

[Larry Gales via EV]

Well, my e-bike is a Dahon Marineer folding bike with a 350 watt BIONx
motor and a 350 wh battery.  It lets me ride a 10% grade with no pedaling
at all, and a 13% grade with very light (no sweat) pedaling.  When I ride
using the throttle only and very light pedaling I get a realistic range of
18 miles at a speed of 17 MPH.The original bike weighed 28 lbs and with the
full motor, and battery it weighs 46 lbs, so a total weight of 18 lbs more
than the original bike.

The BIONx kit cost $1300, but after 5 years and 7000 miles the only
maintenance I have had is one pair of brake pads and a set of tires (oh, I
always ride in high gear and never change gears). And I detect no
significant reduction in either power or range. I also have another Dahon
marineer bike with no motor and I do not detect any significant drag
compared with my BIONx kit.

Your battery, however, at 720 WH, is almost twice as heavy as mine.

I have tested many different e-bikes, but so far the BIONx kit is by far
the best I have seen so far.

-- Larry


On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Danpatgal via EV  wrote:

> Nice summary.  I would say you're a little optimistic on total weight for
> an
> e-bike, I use a hub motor with a light 15ah 48v battery, and I'm easily 30
> lbs over a standard, maybe just a quibble.  The regen % however is a bit
> less realistic.  I ride my e-bike up/down hills, and don't get more than 5%
> regen, on a good day.  Also, the "small amount" of drag when the hub motor
> is off is more than slight, it's rather like cycling with a partially flat
> tire.
>
> Otherwise, nice general write up.
>
>
>
> -
> Dan Gallagher
> http://www.evalbum.com/3854
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Electric-bike-information-tp4671202p4671221.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Electric bike information

[Larry Gales via EV]

Thanks for your comments.  Actually, the article that I am writing now is a
followup to an article in the same magazine that I did in July, in which
the entire contents of the article dealt with the fun, the practicallity,
the benefits, and the widespread use in Europe and Asia of electric bikes.
So the readers of this article have likely seen the immediately preceding
one.

-- Larry Gales


On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 5:48 AM, Mike Nickerson via EV 
wrote:

> I'm with Peri.  My first impression reading the article was that it jumped
> right into the nuts and bolts of a conversion with specifications, but
> nothing on the "Why?"  Even if the first article was on the why, it would
> be good to summarize.
>
> I've put on an alternative vehicle show at my employer.  Bringing vehicles
> to show people really helps them see the possibilities.  If there is a way
> to offer rides, even better.  Normal bike riders often like the idea of
> e-bikes.  It takes some discussion with auto drivers to get them to see the
> possibilities.  Hard core bike riders and racers tend to view e-bikes as a
> foreign add-on that just messed up a perfectly good bike.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On August 26, 2014 11:52:08 AM MDT, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> >Hi Larry,
> >
> >Great start.  My first thought is it might benefit the reader to tell
> >him why he might be interested in an e-bike.  It may sound obvious but
> >simply adding some tempting phrases might hook the reader into
> >finishing
> >the article.  "Do you hesitate to ride because there are too many hills
> >
> >in Seattle?"  Or, "I feel like I'm holding up traffic but I don't feel
> >safe riding in the door zone."  And so on.
> >
> >I think the first step is to get people interested in the possibility
> >of
> >using their bike *instead* of a car.  They may not be that interested
> >in
> >the technical details at that stage.  Perhaps they haven't even
> >considered not using a car.  First you have to capture their
> >imagination.  Then, again, you are writing for CBC so I don't know how
> >many non-cyclists will see your article.  Maybe you can start with CBC
> >and then get more publicity in general media.
> >
> >I'm trying to convince my wife to give it a try.  Maybe your article
> >will help.
> >
> >Peri
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Larry Gales via EV" 
> >To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "SEVA"
> >
> >Sent: 26-Aug-14 10:38:42 AM
> >Subject: [EVDL] Electric bike information
> >
> >>I am trying to interest the largest bicycle club in my area (Seattle),
> >
> >>he
> >>Cascade Bicycle Club, about the importance and future of electric
> >>bikes.
> >>In July I wrote an article about the fun, practicality, and benefits
> >of
> >>e-bikes, and now I would like to provide information that would help
> >>them
> >>purchase an e-bike or an e-bike kit. So I want to know if the
> >>information
> >>that I give them is accurate. So if you see any errors in the
> >>presentation
> >>below, let me know.
> >>
> >>Thanks,,
> >>
> >>Larry Gales,
> >>
> >>Here is the article (limited to 600 words):
> >>
> >>==
> >>In July I wrote an article in the "Courier" about the many advantages
> >>of
> >>electric bikes, or e-bikes, and how they are becoming a mainstream
> >form
> >>of
> >>local transportation throughout Asia and Europe. I hope to encourage
> >>people in this country to acquire e-bikes and so relieve us from the
> >>problems caused by the near exclusive use of automobiles.
> >>
> >>There are many aspects to consider when acquiring an e-bike:
> >>
> >>   o The method of purchase: buy a ready made e-bike or convert an
> >> existing bike with a kit
> >>   o The odometer and battery state of charge display
> >>   o The power you need (typically 250 to 750 watts)
> >>   o The type and size of battery
> >>   o The type and location of the motor
> >>   o The wheel size compatible with an e-bike kit
> >>   o The weight of the e-bike, typically 15-25 lbs more than
> >>conventional
> >> bikes, but note that with an e-bike, the weight only matters when
> >> lift or carry it, so you can easily detach the battery, cutting
> >the
> >> additional weight to 8-12 lbs.
> >&

[EVDL] Electric bike information

[Larry Gales via EV]

I am trying to interest the largest bicycle club in my area (Seattle), he
Cascade Bicycle Club, about the importance and future of electric bikes.
In July I wrote an article about the fun, practicality, and benefits of
e-bikes, and now I would like to provide information that would help them
purchase an e-bike or an e-bike kit.  So I want to know if the information
that I give them is accurate.  So if you see any errors in the presentation
below, let me know.

Thanks,,

Larry Gales,

Here is the article (limited to 600 words):

==
In July I wrote an article in the "Courier" about the many advantages of
electric bikes, or e-bikes, and how they are becoming a mainstream form of
local transportation throughout Asia and Europe.  I hope to encourage
people in this country to acquire e-bikes and so relieve us from the
problems caused by the near exclusive use of automobiles.

There are many aspects to consider when acquiring an e-bike:

  o The method of purchase: buy a ready made e-bike or convert an
existing bike with a kit
  o The odometer and battery state of charge display
  o The power you need (typically 250 to 750 watts)
  o The type and size of battery
  o The type and location of the motor
  o The wheel size compatible with an e-bike kit
  o The weight of the e-bike, typically 15-25 lbs more than conventional
bikes, but note that with an e-bike, the weight only matters when
lift or carry it, so you can easily detach the battery, cutting the
additional weight to 8-12 lbs.
  o The purchase cost and servicing of e-bikes

Here we consider only the type, control, and placement of the electric
motor in an e-bike.

  o There are three main ways to control an e-bike motor:

  - Pedelic:  this multiplies the power you apply to the pedals,
typically by 25% to 300%.  So the motor only operates when you
pedal

  - Throttle:  the motor starts when you press the throttle.  You can
also pedal to add power or extend the range

  - Both: many e-bikes provide both options

  o There are two main types of e-bike motors:

  - Mid-drive motor: this is a geared motor that drives the chain
wheel which in turns powers the chain that powers the rear wheel.
The main advantages are that the motor is isolated from the shock
and vibration of the wheel, and it operates in a way that is most
similar to the way a conventional bike works. However, it
requires frequent gear shifting which must be coordinated with the
motor controls

  - Hub motor: this motor fits inside the wheel around the axle, and
is the most common e-bike motor.  The main advantages
are that it greatly reduces the wear and tear on the
drive train as it powers the wheel directly, it usually eliminates
the need to shift (if the motor is sufficiently powerful), it
often enables regenerating braking which can restore
10-20% of the battery charge, and adds a 3rd braking option.
Note that hub motors mounted in the front wheel cannot use
pedelic control.  There are two main types of hub motors:

  * Gearless hub motor:  this is powered by a ring of rare earth
magnets that are electronically switched on and off to turn
the wheel. It has no moving parts and lasts longer with less
(usually no) maintenance than geared motors, it is the
quietest of all motors, and enables regenerative braking.
The main disadvantages are that it is larger and
somewhat heavier for the same power as a geared motor,  the
torque (needed for hill climbing) is about 20-30% less,
especially at very low speeds, for the same power rating as
a geared motor, and there may be a small amount of drag when
the motor is off.

 * Geared hub motor:  this uses planetary gears.  It does not
   cause any drag when the motor is off, has more torque and power
   for a given weight than a gearless hub motor, but does not
   (currently) allow regenerative braking. It is slightly noisier
   than a gearless motor and requires more maintenance because it
​ ​
  has moving parts.

​​

-- 
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[EVDL] Trailer type Range extenders

[Larry Gales via EV]

Trailer type range extenders, either battery or gasoline powered, always
seem to use standard type trailers, where the trailer hitch allows for both
vertical and side-to-side motion, and where the hitch is almost as long as
the trailer itself.  This considerably increases the total length of a
vehicle, and makes it very difficult to back up.

I wonder if a simpler design would work instead:  a very short hitch which
allows some up-and-down flexibility, but no side-to-side motion, and where
the trailer itself rides on a single swivel wheel.  This would
significantly reduce the length of the trailer+hitch combination, and
should eliminate the problem of backing up.

Also, I saw that the BMW i3 has an optional 700 cc gasoline generator to
extend the range of the vehicle.  I have been unable to find the size and
weight of such as engine+generator combination, so let me know if you have
that information:.

Thanks in advance,

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[EVDL] Question about amp-hr

[Larry Gales via EV]

I know that   watts = amps * volts,  and watt-hours (wh) is a measure of
energy, but over and over again I hear people talking about EV batteries in
terms of amp-hours.  What does that mean if you don't know the voltage?
1000 amp-hr is not impressive if the voltage is, say, 0.1 volts.  Is
there some sort of standard voltage, e.g., 3.6 volts, that is assumed when
one talks about LiON batteries?  Does amp-hours tell you something more
than watt-hours?

Thanks in advance,--
Larry Gales

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