Re: [EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, after all

[paul dove via EV]

 No, I am speaking of supercharging prices where I live.

On Thursday, August 26, 2021, 4:50:05 PM CDT, Willie via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 
On 8/26/21 12:22 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:
>> You have to drive a lot for that to make any difference in your budget. 
>> 100kwh costs around $10
>> where I live. I maybe charge at a supercharger 10 times a year so I’m 
>> getting a free $100 a year.
>> Not worth talking about

I was a bit puzzled by the above response.  We were talking (I think) 
about the cost of away from home charging.  Home charging, indeed, does 
cost around $.10/kwh.  Those who pay for SuperCharging, pay about 
$.28/kwh.  Non Tesla fast charging costs around $.42/kwh.  At least I 
think those are the numbers that have been quoted.  I quoted a recent 
trip of mine and just counted the SuperCharge stops.  Ten plus one 
overnight destination charge. That would have cost a Tesla driver who 
does not have free SuperCharging $50-$100.  Estimated.  For about 2,000 
total miles. I make about 10k miles of highway trips in a year.  So, 
$250-$500 worth of SuperCharging in a year.  For local travel on home 
charging, those miles would have cost me about $100 (at my $.03/kwh 
rate) or ~$300 for at ~$.10/kwh rate.

No, not a huge savings for free SuperCharging.  But, it should be more 
than $5k over the life of the car.

With Tesla opening the SuperCharge network to CCS cars, it will be 
interesting to see how the off brand networks (Electrifiy America, EVGO, 
etc) fare.  I predict another tremendous win for Tesla because 
SuperChargers are better sited, better maintained, and cheaper than the 
off brands.  In addition, those that have made non Tesla buying 
decisions will have more exposure to the value of Teslas.

> While most people who drive Teslas charge at home (at least sometimes), there 
> are some folks that can't, for various reasons, and only use public charging 
> stations.
> The total number who only use public chargers is probably a tiny percentage 
> of Tesla drivers, but I'd bet its still more than FCEV drivers; who are 
> forced to use public hydrogen stations because there is no alternative.
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Re: [EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, after all

[paul dove via EV]

 The number of people driving Tesla model s or x with free supercharging who 
cannot charge at home is probably very small or nill.

On Thursday, August 26, 2021, 11:22:13 AM CDT, Peter VanDerWal via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 > You have to drive a lot for that to make any difference in your budget. 
 > 100kwh costs around $10
> where I live. I maybe charge at a supercharger 10 times a year so I’m getting 
> a free $100 a year.
> Not worth talking about

While most people who drive Teslas charge at home (at least sometimes), there 
are some folks that can't, for various reasons, and only use public charging 
stations.  
The total number who only use public chargers is probably a tiny percentage of 
Tesla drivers, but I'd bet its still more than FCEV drivers; who are forced to 
use public hydrogen stations because there is no alternative.
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Re: [EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Willie via EV]

On 8/26/21 12:22 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:

You have to drive a lot for that to make any difference in your budget. 100kwh 
costs around $10
where I live. I maybe charge at a supercharger 10 times a year so I’m getting a 
free $100 a year.
Not worth talking about


I was a bit puzzled by the above response.  We were talking (I think) 
about the cost of away from home charging.  Home charging, indeed, does 
cost around $.10/kwh.  Those who pay for SuperCharging, pay about 
$.28/kwh.  Non Tesla fast charging costs around $.42/kwh.  At least I 
think those are the numbers that have been quoted.  I quoted a recent 
trip of mine and just counted the SuperCharge stops.  Ten plus one 
overnight destination charge. That would have cost a Tesla driver who 
does not have free SuperCharging $50-$100.  Estimated.  For about 2,000 
total miles. I make about 10k miles of highway trips in a year.  So, 
$250-$500 worth of SuperCharging in a year.  For local travel on home 
charging, those miles would have cost me about $100 (at my $.03/kwh 
rate) or ~$300 for at ~$.10/kwh rate.


No, not a huge savings for free SuperCharging.  But, it should be more 
than $5k over the life of the car.


With Tesla opening the SuperCharge network to CCS cars, it will be 
interesting to see how the off brand networks (Electrifiy America, EVGO, 
etc) fare.  I predict another tremendous win for Tesla because 
SuperChargers are better sited, better maintained, and cheaper than the 
off brands.  In addition, those that have made non Tesla buying 
decisions will have more exposure to the value of Teslas.



While most people who drive Teslas charge at home (at least sometimes), there 
are some folks that can't, for various reasons, and only use public charging 
stations.
The total number who only use public chargers is probably a tiny percentage of 
Tesla drivers, but I'd bet its still more than FCEV drivers; who are forced to 
use public hydrogen stations because there is no alternative.
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Re: [EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

> But the “wha-a-a” moment was when I saw that you drive a hybrid. Why on earth 
> would you drive a
> hybrid? There are plenty of EV options out there, INCLUDING FCEVs! Some of us 
> like clean air,
> chief!
> 

We own a Chevy Volt because at the time we bought it, four years ago, it was 
the best available option.
It has enough range on batteries, EPA rated at 53 miles but I've gotten over 90 
miles per charge on occasion, for our normal daily use, with the availability 
to switch to gas on long trips, it gets 42mpg when running on gas.

in 2017 there was no option to use hydrogen in my area, this hasn't changed and 
I doubt that will change any time soon.
In 2017 there were no charging stations (level-2 or level-3) that could get us 
any further away than Phoenix.

We bought the Volt because it would provide us with a vehicle that could drive 
to Oregon, Kentuky, etc on those rare occasion when we visited family, and do 
so using less gas than almost any thing else available, AND it had enough 
battery range to meet our normal daily use.

My wife finally filled the gas tank on it last week because she'd gotten tired 
of it complaining about having low fuel, that's the first time this year she 
put gas in it.

It is only in the last year that the charging infrastructure has been brought 
online that will allow me to drive, either east or west, and get out of 
Arizona. There was no way I could forsee that happening this soon back in 2017.
I don't pretend to be psycic, I can only base my decissions on the facts 
available at the time.  At the time, the Volt was the best option.  

It still a good option today, I'm not going to just throw it away because there 
are better options.  The next EV I want isn't available yet, but should be in a 
couple years.  Until the next vehicle I want is available we will continue to 
use the Volt.  When we buy the next vehicle I will gift the Volt to someone in 
my family that is still driving petroleum vehicles.

I don't accept this rampant consumerism where you constantly buy the latest and 
greatest and dispose of perfectly functional property that is only a few years 
old.  That is bad for the environment.
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Re: [EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

> You have to drive a lot for that to make any difference in your budget. 
> 100kwh costs around $10
> where I live. I maybe charge at a supercharger 10 times a year so I’m getting 
> a free $100 a year.
> Not worth talking about

While most people who drive Teslas charge at home (at least sometimes), there 
are some folks that can't, for various reasons, and only use public charging 
stations.  
The total number who only use public chargers is probably a tiny percentage of 
Tesla drivers, but I'd bet its still more than FCEV drivers; who are forced to 
use public hydrogen stations because there is no alternative.
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Re: [EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, after all

[paul dove via EV]

You have to drive a lot for that to make any difference in your budget. 100kwh 
costs around $10 where I live. I maybe charge at a supercharger 10 times a year 
so I’m getting a free $100 a year. Not worth talking about


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, August 25, 2021, 12:23 PM, Willie via EV  
wrote:


On 8/25/21 12:42 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:
>
> All Teslas sold before 2017 come with lifetime free supercharging, model S 
> and X come with lifetime free supercharging.  , model 3 and Y come with 1 
> year of free supercharging.  Destination charger (level 2) are almost always 
> free.
> VW comes with 3 years of free charging, the Ionic comes with 1 year of free 
> charging, I believe Nissan used to offer free charging.
> This is in addition to the thousands of EV charging stations that are free to 
> everyone.
> A far as I can tell, every state in the Union has at least 50 free charging 
> stations, most have several hundred.

My 2013 S has transferable lifetime SuperCharging.  Meaning subsequent 
buyers also have SuperCharging.  My 2017 S had not transferable lifetime 
SuperCharging.  Meaning the SuperCharging disappears for subsequent 
owners.  I briefly owned a very early Model3 did not have free 
SuperCharging.   I jumped on a very rare deal to get not transferable  
SuperCharging on my 2018 Model3.  I know of only a few others that have 
free lifetime SuperCharging on a Model3.   I very much want a ModelY and 
a CT but have no hope of getting free SuperCharging.

I don't suppose Phil (or anyone) knows anything about having a newer 
Tesla take on the identity of an older one with SuperCharging?

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Re: [EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Hopefully you saw some places to find the information you wanted in my 
follow-up post.

Use the data how you see fit, draw your own conclusions. I just want to see 
people use accurate information.

But the “wha-a-a” moment was when I saw that you drive a hybrid. Why on earth 
would you drive a hybrid? There are plenty of EV options out there, INCLUDING 
FCEVs! Some of us like clean air, chief!

You’re complaining about FCEV efficiency while you’re running an ICE motor?!  
LOL!


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2021, at 9:42 AM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> You are definitely in great shape for at-home charging. Hopefully that is 
>> usually sufficient for
>> you.
> 
> We bought the Chevy Volt in 2017 and the Chevy Bolt in 2019.  
> 
> I have never paid to charge the Volt,  mostly it gets charged at home but 
> occasionally it gets charged using one of the thousands of free Level-2 
> charging stations.
> 
> We have driven the Volt up to Oregon a couple times to visit my mom (~1500 
> miles each way) and I have driven out to San Jose a couple times (~900 
> miles). My wife an I are both in our late fifties so we no longer like to do 
> marathon driving trips, so we typically only drive 8-10 hours a day one long 
> trips. Our criteria for selecting hotels is that they offer free EV charging, 
> which is actually becomming pretty common these days.  We almost always stop 
> in Blyth for an hour or two to take a break and use the free charger there, 
> and usually stop somewhere between LA and Sacremento to take a break and use 
> one of the free chargers there.
> On the trips to my mom's only about 200 miles (each way) is done on electric, 
> the rest of the trip uses about 30 gallons of gas (each way)  
> On the trips to San Jose each way is about 120-130 miles on electric and 
> about 19 gallons of gas.
> I haven't tried these trips with the Bolt yet because the DC fast chargers 
> needed to get from Phoenix to California weren't installed until last year.
> 
> However, I have driven the bolt to Phoenix and back(190 miles each way) once 
> and numerous times to Tucson and back (90 miles each way)
> In the 2 years I've owned the Bolt I have only twice paid to charge it.  Once 
> just to see how it worked to use a DC fast charger, and a second time because 
> I drove up to the Tucson Airport expecting to park it there and charge for 
> free using level-1 charging (plenty fast enough for a 2-3 day trip) only to 
> have the trip rescheduled at the last minute and I didn't have enough charge 
> to get back home, so I spent ~10 minutes and  $5 using the DC fast charger 
> near the airport rather than spending a couple hours using a free level-2 
> charger.
> 
>> On the hydrogen side, the $16.50 price was correct in 2019. 
> The article I got that number from was pusblish in late 2020, can you offer a 
> link to anything proving your claim?
> 
>> The price is NOT subsidized by California. 
> The cost of fuel normally includes the cost to recoup the cost of building 
> the station, since California paid for 80% of the Station they ARE 
> subsidizing the cost of the fuel.
> 
>> With the newer stations and greater competition they are starting to come 
>> down and will
>> come down.
> Again, can you offer any proof of that?
> 
>> But the consumer doesn’t pay that, with one exception. They pay nothing for 
>> three years.
> 
> All Teslas sold before 2017 come with lifetime free supercharging, model S 
> and X come with lifetime free supercharging.  , model 3 and Y come with 1 
> year of free supercharging.  Destination charger (level 2) are almost always 
> free.
> VW comes with 3 years of free charging, the Ionic comes with 1 year of free 
> charging, I believe Nissan used to offer free charging.
> This is in addition to the thousands of EV charging stations that are free to 
> everyone.
> A far as I can tell, every state in the Union has at least 50 free charging 
> stations, most have several hundred.
> 
>> The OEMs pick that up, and offer even more perks to the “pioneers” (things 
>> like free car rentals).
>> Most lease, but if you bought, like I did for my first one, it becomes 
>> expensive after three years.
>> 
>> 
>> The cost of stations *is* subsidized by California (as is EVSE), but the 
>> stations are not costing
>> $2 million. I think the earlier ones did, but costs are coming down. My 
>> guess is the last group of
>> funded stations were $1.25M per station with four times the fueling bays, 
>> and 5-10 times the fuel
>> capacity of the previous ones. That’s an educated guess, but the recent 
>> numbers are out there.
>> 
>> The amount of subsidy, in %, has also dropped significantly. I think it’s 
>> only 40%, but don’t trust
>> my memory.
> 
> Again, the $2 million figure, with $1.6 million subsidy was from an artical 
> publishdd last year, can you offer any proof of your claims?
> 
>> 
>> Your use of cost of electricity per station (which seems *very* 

Re: [EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Willie via EV]

On 8/25/21 12:42 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:


All Teslas sold before 2017 come with lifetime free supercharging, model S and 
X come with lifetime free supercharging.  , model 3 and Y come with 1 year of 
free supercharging.  Destination charger (level 2) are almost always free.
VW comes with 3 years of free charging, the Ionic comes with 1 year of free 
charging, I believe Nissan used to offer free charging.
This is in addition to the thousands of EV charging stations that are free to 
everyone.
A far as I can tell, every state in the Union has at least 50 free charging 
stations, most have several hundred.


My 2013 S has transferable lifetime SuperCharging.  Meaning subsequent 
buyers also have SuperCharging.  My 2017 S had not transferable lifetime 
SuperCharging.  Meaning the SuperCharging disappears for subsequent 
owners.  I briefly owned a very early Model3 did not have free 
SuperCharging.   I jumped on a very rare deal to get not transferable  
SuperCharging on my 2018 Model3.  I know of only a few others that have 
free lifetime SuperCharging on a Model3.   I very much want a ModelY and 
a CT but have no hope of getting free SuperCharging.


I don't suppose Phil (or anyone) knows anything about having a newer 
Tesla take on the identity of an older one with SuperCharging?


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[EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

> You are definitely in great shape for at-home charging. Hopefully that is 
> usually sufficient for
> you.

We bought the Chevy Volt in 2017 and the Chevy Bolt in 2019.  

I have never paid to charge the Volt,  mostly it gets charged at home but 
occasionally it gets charged using one of the thousands of free Level-2 
charging stations.

We have driven the Volt up to Oregon a couple times to visit my mom (~1500 
miles each way) and I have driven out to San Jose a couple times (~900 miles). 
My wife an I are both in our late fifties so we no longer like to do marathon 
driving trips, so we typically only drive 8-10 hours a day one long trips. Our 
criteria for selecting hotels is that they offer free EV charging, which is 
actually becomming pretty common these days.  We almost always stop in Blyth 
for an hour or two to take a break and use the free charger there, and usually 
stop somewhere between LA and Sacremento to take a break and use one of the 
free chargers there.
On the trips to my mom's only about 200 miles (each way) is done on electric, 
the rest of the trip uses about 30 gallons of gas (each way)  
On the trips to San Jose each way is about 120-130 miles on electric and about 
19 gallons of gas.
I haven't tried these trips with the Bolt yet because the DC fast chargers 
needed to get from Phoenix to California weren't installed until last year.

However, I have driven the bolt to Phoenix and back(190 miles each way) once 
and numerous times to Tucson and back (90 miles each way)
In the 2 years I've owned the Bolt I have only twice paid to charge it.  Once 
just to see how it worked to use a DC fast charger, and a second time because I 
drove up to the Tucson Airport expecting to park it there and charge for free 
using level-1 charging (plenty fast enough for a 2-3 day trip) only to have the 
trip rescheduled at the last minute and I didn't have enough charge to get back 
home, so I spent ~10 minutes and  $5 using the DC fast charger near the airport 
rather than spending a couple hours using a free level-2 charger.

> On the hydrogen side, the $16.50 price was correct in 2019. 
The article I got that number from was pusblish in late 2020, can you offer a 
link to anything proving your claim?

>The price is NOT subsidized by California. 
The cost of fuel normally includes the cost to recoup the cost of building the 
station, since California paid for 80% of the Station they ARE subsidizing the 
cost of the fuel.

> With the newer stations and greater competition they are starting to come 
> down and will
> come down.
Again, can you offer any proof of that?

> But the consumer doesn’t pay that, with one exception. They pay nothing for 
> three years.

All Teslas sold before 2017 come with lifetime free supercharging, model S and 
X come with lifetime free supercharging.  , model 3 and Y come with 1 year of 
free supercharging.  Destination charger (level 2) are almost always free.
VW comes with 3 years of free charging, the Ionic comes with 1 year of free 
charging, I believe Nissan used to offer free charging.
This is in addition to the thousands of EV charging stations that are free to 
everyone.
A far as I can tell, every state in the Union has at least 50 free charging 
stations, most have several hundred.

> The OEMs pick that up, and offer even more perks to the “pioneers” (things 
> like free car rentals).
> Most lease, but if you bought, like I did for my first one, it becomes 
> expensive after three years.
> 
> 
> The cost of stations *is* subsidized by California (as is EVSE), but the 
> stations are not costing
> $2 million. I think the earlier ones did, but costs are coming down. My guess 
> is the last group of
> funded stations were $1.25M per station with four times the fueling bays, and 
> 5-10 times the fuel
> capacity of the previous ones. That’s an educated guess, but the recent 
> numbers are out there.
> 
> The amount of subsidy, in %, has also dropped significantly. I think it’s 
> only 40%, but don’t trust
> my memory.

Again, the $2 million figure, with $1.6 million subsidy was from an artical 
publishdd last year, can you offer any proof of your claims?

> 
> Your use of cost of electricity per station (which seems *very* cheap) isn’t 
> the right number to
> use, as most hydrogen is not produced at the station. If you are assuming the 
> electricity rates
> that you may know at charging stations (a guess on my part), I think that 
> would be wrong anyway,
> because I think that EVSE get special rates that electrolyzers don’t get.

It doesn't matter where it's produced, unless you are making it from fossile 
fuels, etc. the ammount of electricty required is the same.
The 7-9 cents is a widely published figure for California's "green" hydrogen.  
The vast majority of public EVSEs pay 'bussiness' rates for electricity which 
averages over 10 cents per kWh.

One more time, since you keep ignoring this, assuming "green" hydrogen, it 
takes 3-4 times as much electricity